I should go do the math on that, with the new gems and enchants to see if someone in JUST TBC gear could get uncrittable at 80.

It is entirely possible, but you throw your avoidance through the floor.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Well, in either case, people were downing the 25-man content two days after release, and the excuse people had then was "But they had full Sunwell gear!" so...I guess it stands to reason that it is sufficient.

If you dumped all your sta gems and enchants you'd lose too much hp.

And can we stop using the pro gamer benchmark to talk about how doable content is? None of you people killed Malygos 25-man in the first 2 days of release.

On the flipside of that, can we stop using the "Those people are somehow special, they don't count." argument to invalidate things?

They don't count, Bov. They are less then 1% of the population, who play on average 12 to 15 hours a day, and atm, are the laughing stock of the WoW Universe after the shit that went down with the Ensidia merger. They have a B Team that does nothing but support the 25 man raiders and get dick for return, they are mmo groupies that get to say "I'm in the best guild in the world"

If I, you, Givin, or anyone of us could play and be a part of something that can dedicated that much time to playing WoW, we wouldn't count either.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Just commenting on the uncrittable thing since I missed it... Not sure how it would have gone with nothing but t6 gear and uncrittable, but personally I was getting my ass KICKED before I got a decent set of wrath gear to tank in and not just from crits.

So uhh, I'm gonna go with fuck tanking wrath heroics in t6(I had some pieces, not a full set but it wasn't horrible tanking gear either). Item point distribution is simply way better in terms of being able to tank with wrath gear.

I had a very nice set of T6 tanking gear and I could not tank heroics in it. I was well under the 540 defense rating.

Since I have been replacing my gear with Wrath gear my total avoidance had taken a hit but my Defense is 545, AC is over 23K and my HP are over 23K un-buffed. I have ~97% avoidance with Holy Shield up and I still need to replace a couple of items. I now can tank any heroic with an average Healer and average DPS (I pulled a PUG through a heroic CoT:Strat with a healer, rogue and ret pally that had never been there before, and the Heroic badges we rec'd on Meathook were the rogue and priest's first badges. We had one wipe on Meathook then the priest decided to listen to me and we completed the run.)

In terms of "can this be done?" they do count. The only thing between any of us and one of those accomplishments is time, just like you said. They're not supermen, they don't go off and kill raid bosses naked with some supar-sekret strategy. Anything they do, you or I could do if we wanted to and had the time/dedication/motivation to.

As for tanking gear...of course, as a druid, I can get away with a lot more due to SotF not forcing me to stack defense, but I was tanking heroics in pieces of S4/Vindicators gear for a long time. (Turns out, with the bonus armor before the nerf, it was actually really great.)

Now I'm at ~30k armor, ~34k hp, ~42% dodge unbuffed I think. (Dodge might be a bit lower) My armor would probably be a LOT higher but I'm being stubborn and not using armor trinkets ATM, what with the armor nerf looming. Although I should just go get a Defenders Code, even after the armor nerf it'll be the highest mitigation trinket out there.

And yes, before someone says it, I know there are druids with 50-60k HP raid buffed. Any druid can get that. They're also shitty mana sponges. =P

http://serbandsteel.dingblog.com/blog.php

Just because I hadn't seen it linked yet, and it was an interesting lawl. World of Warcraft is the new Cannonball Run.

Cannonball run, heh.

The Crown Prince of Dubai?! Doesn't he have enough to do with his ski hotel?

I oft wonder what's worse...

The people in these sorts of guilds or the folks who put time and effort into trying to inform said people that they're not cool enough.

Kinda reminds me of this:

You left off the people who inform the people informing the people that they're not cool enough, telling everyone else they're also not cool enough.

What is worse are people like in my now former guild. They think that because all of the current content in the expansion has been completed, they can play at being a hardcore raiding guild. It's making me snicker because they're killing themselves, and I'm already hearing it from their members. They have 2 10 mans going (2 nights a week each sometimes more), a 25 man going (2 or more nights a week with Naxx alone) and then they all do other 25 mans for Malygos and Sartharion as well.

Already I am hearing "Raiding so much is getting expensive" and "OMG I'm getting sick of raiding." So, I finally told them "You are not a hardcore guild. You're killing your members and causing burn out. Stop raiding 6 or 7 days a week." In return I got "Oh no, we changed." Bullshit, no you didn't. You're pretending to be a raiding guild until half of your player base quits because they get burnout because they can't handle what 33% of the remaining players want to do. That's especially in an expansion like this. Raiding 10 man Naxx 2-4 days a week (depending what they get down and that is their words not mine) 25 Man Naxx 2 to 3 days a week, and then most of them feel obligated to go to Eye of Eternity and Obsidian Sanctum they are already screwing up.

I'm not that dedicated anymore. Personally I couldn't give a fuck less about 25 man content. Not because I somehow find 10 man harder, but because I just want to hang out and kill shit with friends. Simply put, it's easier for me to get 9 competent friends than it is for me to get 24 of them on at the same time, so I deal with 10 man shit. I might go to a 25 man sometimes, but I'm not overly concerned about it.

In short: The worst people right now are the people who are casual players trying to pretend at being Oryx, Conquest, Nihilum, SK Gaming, or whatever the fuck their merged guild was called. They are not, and will not be those people, and it's cool to not be those people if you don't want to be. But for fuck's sake quit the pretend raiding guild bullshit.

In short to Bov: It's doable by extremely hardcore raiders and gamers. Should it be tried by someone casual? No. Why? Because someone casual wasn't in full Sunwell. What those people do, while attainable by everyone, was not the benchmark for gamer performance. Just because Lebron James scored 50 points in a game against the Lakers doesn't mean you can do it too. That's the point everyone here has been making.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

This isn't basketball. WoW does not take talent, particular physical attributes or a great amount of practice, dedication or drive. That's the point I'm making. The only thing between any of us and anything that this Ensidia guild or any other super-zomg-hardcore guild accomplishes is the time investment and caring enough to go out and do it. Most of us don't care to stay up 72 hours straight to level up and go out and do this stuff though.

That's why when someone says, "Just because X guild did it doesn't mean it can be done! They're one of those fabled HARDCORE guilds!!" I shake my head. The current content doesn't even hit you with very many gear checks, and none of them are really hard gear checks. Most are just soft ones.

Except that no one said that because they did it can't be done by anyone else. Neesha and others stated, as I did, that their performance and dedication to that sort of thing far outweighs the average performance. They care far more, so, no, their progress in this game should not be measured to track anyone else's progress. Just as my example above.

You should measure where you are at in this expansion based around players and guilds with similar play styles to your own. If you are not a hardcore raid guild., you should not try to be one. Quit fucking kidding yourself. So, if you are not a hardcore raid guild, quit comparing yourself to one. You're not one. That's no different than a street ball player in Harlem comparing himself to Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James, or even Michael Jordan in his prime.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

Bov,

There's a reason everyone disagrees with you. About everything.

It's not us. It's you.

No one's comparing themselves to anyone. Most of this discussion sprung from people questioning if content could be done in Tier 6 and such.

You'll notice my quote from another post stating:

"In terms of "can this be done?" they do count."

That's what it was about. I don't know where you're getting this stuff about comparing oneself to someone else, and I sure as hell don't know how you're equating talent in a sport to anything in WoW, but that's not what was being discussed, at least as I understand it.

My only objection was to people saying that X thing "couldn't be done" and just because some "hardcore" guild did it that it didn't matter because for some reason mere mortal players still couldn't do it. That's all that bothers me. I'll say it again, there is nothing in this game that anyone here cannot do if they bothered to put the time into it. That's all, folks.

That is comedy GOLD coming from you, Joxur.

And the only reason Uluth seems to disagree with me is that he's addressing an entirely different topic for some reason.

Edit: I'll admit that I, too, have probably deviated from the original topic a lot too. It's just always been one of my pet peeves when someone says, "zomg THEY did it, but it's impossible for anyone else!" when looking at something in a game like WoW. Sorry.

Except they don't count. What casual was in Tier 6? So, why should a guild who wasn't in Tier 6 have to measure their progress at how easy or difficult the expansion is by the progress of a guild in full Sunwell (which was better than T6)?



Here's the problem. You're taking the statement at a literal read instead of the implied reasoning. You take "This cannot be done by everyone" to mean "This task is physically impossible." It doesn't. What it means is "Ok, so the expansion was easy to someone in full Sunwell gear. Whoopie fucking shit. Does that mean the content is going to be walked over by everyone and KT''s going to have every player in the game's footprint on his face? No." The achievements are not easy. Have you done them all? If not, why not? That hardcore guild did it! it's doable! Even by someone in less gear than them! Except, no. That's not a benchmark. You're taking people that have the best gear in slot per slot, in every slot, and comparing what they did to everyone else. That does not work. Not everyone is on that playing field.

That is the problem. So, theoretically, could it be done? Yes, if you have everything perfect. If your guild does not, then it very well may not be able to be done. You cannot take people who started the expansion in Tier 5 and wonder why they have it slightly more difficult than someone in Tier 6.5. Hell, some people never even got out of Kara/ZA. Asking them to achieve what a guild like whatever the fuck that damn merged name was (I will never remember that shit, ever, so I refer to them as this constantly) is an unfair comparison.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

Just seems like we're splitting hairs here then.

But yes, plenty of "casuals" were in T6. 3.0.2 ring a bell? Even my wife's alt was in 2pc T6.

And yes, KT has been getting roflstomped by everyone since like the first week of release. He's really not a good benchmark. Sapph is actually harder IMO, but hey.

As for achievements...they're cool and all, but this new attitude of, "There's a shiny window for it, so now somehow doing dumb things on encounters is important." is annoying. I'm not going to lose sleep over my failure at not getting some achievement for other people in my raid not failing at Heigan dance. About the only achievement I could care about is Sarth+3. (Which no, I haven't been able to pug. Yet. <3)

Really it's a weird thing. The raids themselves in this expansion are not hard thus far. We'll see with Ulduar, but really I think the goal is the completion of the Achievements. I read somewhere way back in the beta when Achievements first hit that eventually you'd be able to buy shit with the points. While I'm not sure if that's still a plan, I'm pretty sure there are going to be certain achievements required for the items as well. it would be stupid not to.

So, really just killing the bosses isn't enough for world firsters anymore. Now they have to do it the hard way, and that's fine, because it gives them their level above everyone else. IE: "Hahaha! You killed Sarth but we did it with all 3 drakes up!" And that, truthfully, will probably be the hardest achievement, and won't likely even be puggable for a while, especially in 10 man.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

The hardest part about doing Sarth+3 is getting people with the fucking guts to do it. ><

It's that attitude again. The, "What? THAT? We...we can't do that!!!" crap. I haven't even been in a group that TRIED Sarth+3 yet.

I have. We failed pretty hard because people weren't expecting some of the stuff. The problem with most people is the defeated attitude which separates raiders from casuals. If a Casual wipes two or three times, they give up. If a raider wipes two or three times, they look closer at the fight mechanics.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

heh.

so, by your logic, I'm a "raider" even though my play schedule would label me a "casual" ?

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

It's pretty easy to define hardcore and casual now a days, and Uluth pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Even "casuals" are clearing 25 man in a night. Working as intended, right hand to God.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

If I gave up after 3 tries I never would have gotten out of first grade.

It will be too bad if "skilled" players can simply walk through the entire expansion. I could understand it if it were the first couple raids to give the masses something to do. Like MC compared to BWL. There was a huge jump in difficulty there. I seem to remember tons of guilds that could take out Ragnaros but couldn't for the life of them get through .. ... whatever the second boss of BWL was. Can't come up with the name right now. Vael!

Intin failed first grade twice!

I also led an unsuccessful raid on the BoT towers.

You can take the raider out of a raid, but you can't take the raiding mentality out of a raider.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

My logic:
A "raider" is someone that has a goal that requires multiple people sharing the same goal to achieve. Raiders considers the raid successful if the target boss is downed not if they got loot. A raider spends time understanding everything they can to make their character perform the best that it can, then learns everything they can to understand the fights - first from their role's perspective then to all other role's perspective A raider shows up ready, fully equipped and on time for raids and if the raider can not make a scheduled raid they will communicate with others to let them know of the absence. A raider is willing to take a backseat for the betterment of the raid as a whole. Raiders know when it is time to have fun and when it is time to be serious.

A "casual" player is someone that is just playing a game. They rely upon others to tell them how to do the fights and a raid is a success to a casual if they get loot. They show up whenever and demands to be in on everything regardless if their class will benefit the raid as a whole.

In my definition there really isn't a time element to differentiate between a raider and a casual. You can be a casual and play 40 hours a week or you can be a raider and only play a couple nights a week. It is the effort that the person puts into the game that makes the difference.

I don't think "raider" and "casual" are contrasting terms. They are like lamb and tuna fish. Both meat, but one is a mammal and the other is a fish. There are casual raiders, casual pvpers, hardcore raiders, hardcore pvpers, casual levelers, and chinese gold farmers.

In fact, quite often the so-called "hardcore" guys end up spending less time than the so-called "casuals" in my experience just because the "casuals" goof around, take forever to organize, wipe 10 times, etc...while the "hardcores" just get shit done and go do something else.

/sigh... the whole "wipe three times call it quits" brings some memories of the good old days, Intin hit the nail on the head there.

Is it just me or do WoW players who never played EQ COMPLETELY lack that commitment we had when trying bosses? I mean, ok, forget about the 6-hour-long raids. We're long past that, I don't expect that in WoW. BUT - I've noticed a shitload of players that will call it quits after 2-3 wipes, and on a raid that is nothing less than ridiculous in my mind. Now, certainly there are situations where we simply don't have the right makeup and the players just suck... but still, it happens too often for my tastes.

I mean, fuck, I remember wiping on Vindicator NO LESS than 75 times before we killed him(maybe more). We didn't really raid in Kunark so no one had a clue how raiding worked in general other than the gimp epic bosses. We sucked, I sucked, everyone sucked... but the thing is, we stuck with it and CAME to THAT raid expecting a night full of wipes - but we kept at it and I've never seen as much guild spam to this date.

I don't necessarily long for THAT much commitment for a single boss... but new school MMORPGers in WoW just seem far less dedicated to making things happen. It's far too quick that it's declared: "We cannot do this with our current setup".

RotA hanging out outside of PoG to assist Visions with Tunare one night. Now THAT was dedication, baby! We need more of that in WoW. Minus the whole fucking Visions thing.

Maybe because all raid content is instanced? Everyone can come back later with a better setup to kill the boss?

In EQ, you did not have that option, because other guilds were waiting to down the raid boss if you failed to do so.

Well, that certainly wasn't our incentive to kill Vindi at that time that I recall. The strong guilds didn't need him anymore, and only came in to kill him for AoW or whatever. Lesser guilds weren't at him yet, and we were at a point where he was the next leg up. We were in no rush per say.

And there were other examples of bosses that weren't on "must farm" status for other guilds that we and other guilds spent loads of time on wiping and wiping.

I suppose that could have been part of the reason for some of the time, but mostly I see more dedication back then to getting something dead.

Yea, you can always retreat and reform for ideal situations, but the problem I see is when you already have what you would consider an ideal class makeup, and yet you give up anyway after 3 wipes. That is the definition of lack of dedication, because you're going to come right back there with the exact same or close to the same setup and do the exact same thing. And it happens more often than I'd care to see. I'd even prefer to see the class makeup changed up right then and there, with tactics changed and all. But no, once 3 wipes are done, everything is done.

Some guilds do this, but they're mostly on the bleeding edge of content. I'm just not seeing a whole lot of middle ground between there, but maybe I'm just on the wrong server. Thing is, you don't need to be a bleeding edge guild to keep going at something even when you fail, even if it's only for a limited time.

I don't give a damn about progression in WoW anymore. All I want to be able to do is make a fucking Inscribed Monarch Topaz. Is that so fucking hard? Apparently it is.

Knowing my luck it goes on Sons of Whoredir faction.