NTov still ranks as one of my favorite all time zones

I mean what was not to love about the very first time you go to door as main monk puller, open and just slightly peak around the corner

and get bent over by 5 level 61 SUPER WYVERNS


good times, good times

Does everyone remember the first Yelanik take down? It seems like we ended up with over 100 people and still failed. Then Itz or Kets (whoever) scaled it down to 6 groups and we ended up doing it flawlessly.

ntov was fun to pull when you learned all the tricks

besides, everyone knows you jump FD around a corner, not peak!

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Getting massive AA's of course did not require much skill, but it was a way to log into the game and go have fun with your friends and still feel like you accomplished something and progressed your character.

And you can debate the skill vs time vs gear vs blah blah all you want but some people gained them at a signifgant rate faster then others legitmately. Especially In Omens, if you had a component group of people geared fairly well you could pound out AA's at 2 X the rate easy when you were in the harder zone (forgot the name, blue crystal place with named mobs that charmed and could wipe about any group if you weren't on top of your game).

Almost every aspect of MMO's in the long run have some function of time but that wasn't the ONLY variable that dictated how many AA you had.

Like I said, it would take some creative thinking to make AA"s value added but still not screw a casual player to much out of content but for "me" that would make me a WOW beleiver and long term player. I want something that can differentiate a player who is dedicated opposed to a casual player, as long as casual have plenty of "cake" too its good for everyone because eventually the casuals can reach the same level of power.

Everyone has their own vision of a perfect MMO....mine just includes AA's and higher then .05% female/male ratio

Exactly. I wasn't saying "hardcore" in terms of skill, but rather people who play the game non-stop. It took zero skill to grind AA's, but it was an extension of the game and allowed people to do dungeons they otherwise never would have done because there would be nothing in it for them. At the very least, it allowed progression beyond replacing item slots over... and over.... and over..... and over....



Personally I remember damage meters(that one program which logged your combat log and you came back to by alt tabbing later) since back in the NTOV days. It had been around for a while.

Granted with 25 people it would be trickier.. but this already happens anyway, without AAs. People who are more dedicated and spend more time farming for the guild, perfecting their gear/gems/chants, perfecting their DPS rotations etc get raid spots over people who don't spend that extra time. I don't see much difference in having AAs over having more slots to enchant and gem in terms of having to spend time for it, plus it's a different path of progression as opposed to gemming/chanting.



No one said you got exp for exploring specifically. Rather, when you went into those dungeons for the first few times exploring them, you got exp from killing mobs while you went. Most EQ dungeons were packed with mobs, so it wasn't hard to come by. Raiding exp was always negligible... i always filled my level 65-70 bar with exp before I started grinding AAs, which, granted still takes time to fill. As for the third point, indeed there were fewer pieces of gear, though that was particularly towards the end of EQ's popular lifespan(i.e. PoP) where you couldn't find much gear outside of raids for raids.

Exp for an old dungeon, depends on which old dungeon you went to. They regularly had the "hot zones" in which older dungeon exp was increased significantly, and it wasn't half bad then. I remember going back to Sebilis and the exp at 65-ish wasn't half bad. It was never PoFire good by any means, but it was something over the absolutely nothing that you get in WoW.

But really, particularly those last two points, those are both things WoW can improve upon. Actually, I would say old dungeon exp was just fine in EQ for the most part - it offered a small amount, which was far better than nothing. More importantly, those side zones/dungeons such as the lesser planes in PoP where you wouldn't normally go for an exp grind, but some guy needed help with a quest and you're able to get some exp on the side while doing it. Doing dungeons for fun(and AA's) would not be nearly as much of a problem with WoW, given that the content is so rich, progression-driven folks would have even more reason to go back to them even if no loot was involved.

The final implementation of AA's might have been flawed, but the idea is laudable...letting you seriously go (almost) anywhere and do anything and still feel as though you were at least getting SOMETHING. You could go off and do totally goofy things for no reason and still get some AAXP at least.

That's something WoW lacks ATM, though badges aren't an entirely bad system of allowing people to do whatever dungeon they want and still make some progress.

Of course, some people don't need that feeling of progression and will argue that if something is fun, you should just go out and do it anyway even if there's no carrot. Eh. To each his own.

The problems with the AA system really started to show themselves once a couple expansions came down the line and some new character hit level cap...suddenly they were hundreds of AA's behind, and that's never a good way to start your level-cap career.

I liked how AA's in EQ were permanent, whereas getting gear began to feel like spinning your wheels after a while, since new expansions inevitably made your duds obsolete.

On this topic, the good news is that it seems as though item budgets aren't drastically changing the way they did in TBC, so really if you have good epix in TBC they should last until 77 or even 80 in WotLK.

I wish WoW would give me a reason to play other than gear at 60, 70, and now 80. AAs are a good cure to actually do shit for other than gold and badges at 60, 70, 80.

I'm enjoying the Achievements for precisely that reason, also getting all my trades up to max level, and making fun toys.

They mean nothing though. Lol. They copied that from Xbox Live and PSN (who copied from Xbox Live) and it's a good hook for those who can't really see past the gimmickery that it is, but other than that, they're worthless and a waste of time.

They're -fun to do-, Sky. If that means nothing to you, then don't do them. There are those who enjoy competing to see how many they can complete, tho!

I don't do them. My account is inactive, and has been for half a year at least. I know people like them, as I stated, they can't see past the gimmickery of it.

I don't get you, sometimes, Sky. A game is played because it's fun. If a gimmick is fun, it's still fun. This, in itself, is a reason to do it. Why do you feel the need to seek justification for it, especially since you don't play?

Oh. Right. Your title.

I don't think it's fun. I don't play.

WoW would be fun if there were a point in playing, yielding a reward for character progression not simply some text in a faux-book in game or a new piece of gear. Character. Progression.

I don't understand how people think collecting 50 pets is fun. I simply don't get it.

QFT

(reminds me of a democrat everyone likes this year too!)

Ok, so that accounts for a percentage of EQ's 500k playerbase.

Explain the other 10.5+ million.

I think people are missing the point.

The other 10.5 million were brought on board due to...

A...Global marketing
B...Having lower system requirments
C...Being casual friendly
D...It's what everyone else is playing
E...China

Not only is China a huge chunk of WoW's subscriber base, Perfect World is more popular there. That game is trash but there's still more playing it than WoW. Same for Korea, at least two years ago. Lineage I/II were more popular than WoW.

I got Perfect World (International) on my comp right now. Haven't logged in in forever, but it's a decent time waster if you're not expecting anything.

the SoE hatefest was also a big part of EQ2's failure which many WoWers bring up.

Exactly!

People can claim that WoW owes its' success to EQ, but at most all EQ did was provide a few starting subscriptions. In fact, I would even argue that it's possible that if anything EQ may have robbed WoW of some early subscriptions just due to the stigma EQ placed on MMO's just being for fat nerds in basements.

I'd even argue that it's very likely that more people subscribed to WoW from the Starcraft/Diablo crowd than did from the EQ/EQ2 crowd. And most certainly it was Blizzard's marketing, name, design, philosophy, etc that make it skyrocket up.

Yeah and that is part of the problem. Those fucking Battle.net idiots ruin World of Warcraft. ;( I can't tell you how many times I've seen guild apps that are totally shitty and then at the end where it asks for MMO experience it is: "None, I played SC/WC."

It's not about subs Bov, and Givin is right on why they have their subs but, the it's owes it's predecessor with it's existence. I don't think we would necessarily have a WoW if EQ wouldn't have been successful. Just like I don't think you would have the countless MMO's today if it wasn't for WoW's success. No one knew that MMO's would be successful in the West, Blizzard was completely content with their Diablo II's and SC's. However, once EQ proved it could be done in the West, i'm sure Blizzard said, "Heck if people like that, they'll love what we can do."

Who knows, Blizzard may have eventually created a MMO without the UO's and EQ's but, they didn't. Brad took a risk and created an accidental success which led to what we have today. We can't say it any other way because that's the way it happened. He pioneered the genre into the West thus opening the door for others. So EQ had 500k at their peak but that was enough to place MMO's in magazines, TV, and news, with addiction warning, family neglect, etc. Eventhough EQ didn't have the subs EQ, Evercrack, NeverRest, etc. had hit the eyes and ears of millions and millions. They educated the entire West of what MMO's where by definition while Lineage had the east. So yeah, Wow does NOT owe anyone but themselves for their subs directly but, they do owe their predecessors for poising the consumer for this explosion we call WoW.

So, I agree with you and Givin in terms of why they have 11 million people today but my only point is I personally don't think we would be where we are now if not for EQ. (Once again, refer to the quotes above.) There's always a humble begining that people always seem to overlook or forget.

Toyota would not be the #1 auto manufacturer in the world if not for Ford and the model T. I don't believe that diminishes Toyota's achievement at all, and the same analogy could be used with any industry where the originating company is no longer the controlling force.

Best post, in the thread. Can we stop beating the poor dead horse now?

Blizzard owes all of their success to Sierra On-Line. Duh.

People have cited that AAs are a good driver to get people to return to content. WoW has implemented alternative methods (gold, badges, quests, achievements, holidays, etc.) which achieve the same thing making the point moot.

The other point mentioned is that AAs are a permanent way to increase the power of your character which is fundamentally different than power increases through gear, some people find this to be more satisfying. This however is the largest reason why AAs fall down, permanent changes for characters that vary wildly across the player base not only make it much more difficult to balance future content (not nearly as big a concern in EQ as it is today in WoW) it will inevitably leave a large portion of players feeling hopeless.

So there's then two choices, either AAs have to be implemented with high diminishing returns which then make the effort largely pointless on behalf of the person with lots of time, frustrating a good portion of that group in the process or introduce them with little diminishing returns which, as already stated, leaves some portion of players feeling hopeless knowing that they'll never catch up.

So you're gaining a small increase in satisfaction with 'character upgrades' over 'gear upgrades' at the cost of leaving a very bad taste in somebody's mouth.

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Get off my Lawn alliance

argrax is wrong on so many facets i won't even spend my time debating it

I agree with Argrax. One of the best things about WoW is the ability to level a new character relatively quickly and painlessly, and being able to get him up to speed with gear relatively quickly and painlessly.

AA's suck.

I agree with Argrax simply because it pisses Skycrasher off. I'd also like to take this moment to ask why Sky even cares, since he doesn't play anymore.

because world of warcraft would be so much better if there was a reason to play outside of badge runs and dailies that are repetitive after the 2nd run... it'd be cool if wow just simply copied the general base abilities of eq aa v1 and you could get a 100hp boost for a level. you'd have a tandem in addition to not just doing runs solely to get a badge to save up for 100 of them to buy one piece of gear. you'd get tangible progress in the meantime. soloing doing dailies would have more meaning, because you're getting something done instead of just farming gold.

it kills me that character progression completely stops at the level cap. i'd love to play world of warcraft because it's an awesome game but i can't really rationalize spending 3 hours farming heroics and still not getting anything when i log off. i'm in the same point as when i started, unless i reached that badge total for the piece of gear i wanted.

i just want a reason to play that progresses my character via xp every time i play. (that's why i like leveling through expansions. i have a reason to play to reach that next level. meanwhile, i am getting gear and spells and badges. very fun way to progress.)

/shrug. AA's are just levels of a different sort. Including them would just be raising the level cap in disguise. Put in 100 new AA's, and suddenly the maximum "level" isn't 80 anymore, but 80 + 100aa's. They could have left the cap at 70 for WotlK and put in the 10 extra levels in the form of AAs, and had it make zero difference in gameplay.

Personally, I prefer just getting the levels. It's simpler. But I guess with AA's, you can customize your path to max level, if that's important to you.

In EQ AAs are just something you get from exping to 85 now. Blah.

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If you're spending 3 hours a night in WoW why not raid end-game? o_O

There's always the issue of not finding people you're happy to raid with, but I mean with that kind of time investment there's more than heroic farming.

And yet....WoW is a game, meant to be played for fun.

Let me ask you this....if this is your rationalization, then how does it apply to your life? Do you do meaningless things, like your job for example, that doesn't really grow you as a person, just so you can pick up a paycheck? How is that any different than someone farming heroics just for badges? You're both doing mindlessly stupid shit for little reward....the only difference is one is a game, and the other is your real life.

It always cracks me up when people have this attitude that "well, if it's not making me better in any fashion, then it's not worth my time".....when they are talking about a video game, and yet, in the real world, they waste their entire lives being some wage slave. Honestly, if that was your attitude, then I would expect you would have busted yourself trying to be the best, and achieving some measure of real world success......otherwise maybe committing suicide is a good option for you because your whole life isn't progressing or amounting to much, much like quitting WoW because there isn't much left in the way of progression.

Achievement's are the modern equivalent to AAs, and 1000x better. They don't affect game balance in any appreciable manner, you don't need them to play, so you aren't behind the curve if you decide to start playing the game and have zero achievements compared to someone that has 100 (unlike AAs, where if you had zero AAs you were WAY behind someone with 100+ AAs), and they still reward people with a sense of accomplishment and a need to play. Unless you are like Skycrasher I guess, who needs a reason to advance his character, but doesn't need a reason to continue breathing while not advancing himself in the real world.

It's not fun to have zero character progression. Saving up 139 badges for a piece of gear is not fun.

Achievements are the ultimate form of duping the gaming population and you've bought it hook line and sinker. Enjoy your time in World of Warcraft. I'll be busy playing Fallout 3 and shit.

It's not fun to have zero real life progression. Saving up money for a piece of crap is not fun.

Paychecks are the ultimate form of duping the human population and you've bought it hook line and sinker. Enjoy your time in your dead end job. I'll be busy playing with my Aston Martin and shit

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Now do you get it....? Which is worse, not progressing in a game, or not progressing in real life? And if you have such a high standard for a game, why not apply it in your real life? Unless, of course, you understand you really are mediocre and therefore have no real chance of real world success.

I do have RL progression though. I'm a law school student. I have a bachelors degree. I am married and have a beautiful 7yr old daughter who just won student of the month for academics. My boy Marty just had a birthday last Saturday and I went to the bar and hung out. I have succeeded IRL and will continue to do so.

WoW = not fun.

I love when people try equating any part of an MMO to "real life".

When you're doing something that is *purely* for entertainment, it should come as no surprise that you expect is to be, more or less, entirely fun. So no, it's not "worth your time" to do things that are just plain not fun when you're playing a game.

In the "real world" you do things that aren't fun because it's your life, your family, your well-being, the roof over your head, and all the other things that comprise the idea of taking care of yourself, your family and your life.

It's downright silly to say, "Well if you want progression in a game, why aren't you President of the world?!?!?!"

Actually, it has more to do with being consistent with your attitude towards life Bovinity.

You are correct, games are purely for entertainment. Only a dimwit like Skycrasher, and maybe yourself, would fail to see that "fun" means things to different people. So why disparage people who enjoy achievements, for example, just because you don't? It might be fun for them, not for you. So what, it's a game, people enjoy it in different ways.

But's it's ironic when someone can complain how people can do heroic runs day in and day out....just for badges to get some piece of loot.....when the direct comparison is that people do that all the time in real life. Boring shitty job just to get a paycheck (akin to badges). You can understand the latter, but somehow not understand the former? It's somehow beneath people to waste their time farming badges, meanwhile they waste their life away at some menial job? Exactly which one is more important to focus on? Progression in a game or progression in your life?

All I am saying is that the game is not fun for me. I never said it wasn't fun for you. That's why I don't play, because WoW doesn't meet my standards of fun. I think it's stupid, therefore it is. I don't care if 11 million other people are having fun. I'm not, and when it's about my opinion, I'm the one who matters.

His warrior was specced like shit anyway. It's no wonder he complains about the game not being fun.

Sunwell, kek.

I would find it hard to have my attitude toward WoW be the same as my attitude toward life.



Where did anyone disparage anyone for liking achievements? I like them too. So Sky doesn't like them, so what?



Again, the point is that WoW is a *game*. When I play a game I expect it to be...well...all fun and games. If something is frustrating or not fun or irritating I'll just stop. I real life I can't just stop doing things that aren't fun because...well...it's life. Maybe you're a super-rich dude who can just say, "Screw this meeting, I'm getting on my yacht!!" but that's not life for most people. We endure the unpleasant things in life in the hopes that, in the long run, it'll mean a better life for us and our family.

givin didn't like my talents in world of warcraft oh no

hard to be insulted by a d00d who is 31 years old and lives on campus at a college lol

gg givin

He gets older, college chicks stay the same age.

Worked out great for Van Wilder... so what's the problem?

WoW is just simplification, or to some folks the dumbing down of an MMO.
Dumb down the graphics requirements
Dumb down the questing system
Dumb it all down for Joe the Plumber (**note) to be able to play.

You're addressing a crowd of early adopters who played EQ1 when it first came out
and when it wasn't cool to play an MMO. Most early adopters want cutting edge, hence
they adopt early.

Look I'm thrilled Joe the Plumber has an MMO to play, but I still hope for something
more bleeding edge with innovation. Of course I now have a lot less time to play,
so I shop more in the PvP aisle since it typically allows for a couple hour excursions
into entertainment.


** note: Joe the plumber was neither a licensed plumber, made no where near $250k,
and lied about buying a business. He must be a hardcore gamer.

That's a truly sad sentiment. Life is what you make of it. If you are doing something you do not like because of some sense of having to get by....then you need to change that something. "That's life" is just an excuse.

A complete tangent, and I'm not trying to just point you out on this Bovinity.....but how sad it is to lead a life unexamined. Did you ever have to read Thoreau, or Walden, when you were in school? I think most of us read it in high school, but I was profoundly affected by it. Two of his more famous passages:

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practice resignation."

Take it to heart. Set out to accomplish your dreams. Do not waste your precious life on mundane, rudimentary things.....don't ever give up, as the saying goes "nor did I wish to practice resignation", i.e. "well, that's life".



Which brings me back to WoW. Again, if I change it to say:

"We endure the unpleasant things in WoW in the hopes that, in the long run, it'll mean a better character"

Then you can see why people endure doing badge runs over and over and over again. If you choose to ridicule that fact, or think you somehow rise above that (looking at you Skycrasher), then for your sake I hope you attitude applies to the more important game, which is your life.

Is this how the boards are going to be? Obama gets elected and everyone's writing a fucking thesis on how to live your life? Someone make it fucking stop.

How is it sad? I don't know anyone that went through life without doing or experiencing something bad, or anyone that accomplished something without putting work into it. I dunno why some folks here are trying to pretend they live some perfect life, away from any blemish or inconvenience or something.



I'm sorry that living a day to day life and taking care of one's self and family and living for today and just being happy for the sake of being happy is somehow mundane and rudimentary.



Again, WoW is a *game*. I don't see how you can fault someone for walking away from a game when it's not fun, nor can I see how you'd somehow compare that to real life and suggest that we should all somehow walk away from it all like it's a game when it's not fun.