Here's the Beta notes. Paladins got lawled, and I don't see a single nerf for shaman.

World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Beta

Welcome to the World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Beta Test. The list below contains information on the current available content for testing and general information. This information is subject to change. Alpha testers should note that your characters have been temporarily locked out. In a few weeks time, we will unlock these characters and you will be able to continue to level them. Please visit the Beta forums to submit feedback and discuss the expansion development with others.

General

* The continent of Northrend is now available! To travel there, visit one of four transportation masters in either Orgrimmar, Undercity, Stormwind Harbor,or Menethil Harbor.
* The floating magical city of Dalaran is now available!
* The Barber Shop has been implemented and you can now visit one of the Barber Shops in the major cities to change your appearance.
* The all new Achievement System has been implemented.
* Transportation between Howling Fjord and Borean Tundra can be found at the Tuskarr villages in those zones.
* The level cap is currently set to 77.
* Hit Rating, Critical Strike Rating, and Haste Rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.
* Spellpower:
o All items and effects which grant bonuses to spell damage and spell healing are being consolidated into a single stat, Spellpower. This stat will appear with the same values found on items which grant “increased spell damage and healing” such as on typical Mage and Warlock itemization.
o For classes which do not heal, they should see no change in the character sheet other than new tooltip wording.
o Healing characters will see their bonus healing numbers on the character sheet decrease, however, all healing spells have been modified to receive more benefit from spellpower than they received from bonus healing, with a net effect of no change to the amount healed by their spells. Some talents have had to be rebalanced to accommodate this change, but the amount healed will remain roughly the same. In addition, some talents will provide only healing spell power.
* NPC Transportation Locations
o Horde:
+ Undercity to Vengeance Landing (Howling Fjord)
+ Orgrimmar to Warsong Hold (Borean Tundra)
o Alliance:
+ Menethil Harbor to Valgarde (Howling Fjord)
+ Stormwind Harbor to Valiance Keep (Borean Tundra)

Known Issues

* The current patch notes are incomplete, but will be more progressively more comprehensive in each patch.

World Environment Zones

* The following zones are available for testing: Howling Fjord, Borean Tundra, Dragonblight, and Grizzly Hills, Sholazar Basin, and Zul'Drak.

Dungeons

* The following dungeons are available for testing:
o Howling Fjord: Utgarde Keep (70-72)
o Borean Tundra: The Nexus (70-72)
o Dragonblight: Azjol-Nerub (72-74)
o Grizzly Hills: Drak’Tharon Keep (74-76)
o Storm Peaks: The Halls of Stone (77-79)

Classes

* All Classes are available for play. Spells and talents will be available for testing past 70.
* The Death Knight Hero class is now available for play.
o Death Knights will now start with 0 talent points at level 55.
o Creating a new Death Knight will start you at level 55 in Eastern Plaguelands.
o The Death Knight start zone, Acherus, the Ebon Hold, is fully implemented and is located in the Eastern area of Eastern Plaguelands.

Druid

* Brambles (Balance): Now increases the damage done by your Treants, and also damage caused from your Treants and Barkskin has a 5/10/15% chance to Daze the target for 3 sec.
* Celestial Focus (Balance): The stun proc now works with Starfall.
* Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
* Faerie Fire (Feral): Now an 11-point talent, down from being a 21-point talent.
* Feral Charge (Feral) is now a 21-point talent, up from being a 11-point talent.
* Feral Charge (Feral): Can now be used in Cat form.
* Feral Instinct (Feral) no longer increases threat generated in Bear form, but now increases damage done by your Swipe ability by 5/10/15%.
* Focused Starlight (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.
* Force of Nature (Balance): Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes, down from 3.
* Hurricane: No longer has a cooldown (was 1 minute).
* Improved Faerie Fire (Feral): Now also works with spell hit, in addition to ranged and melee hit %.
* Improved Mark of the Wild (Restoration): Now a 2-point talent, down from a 5-point talent.
* Improved Tranquility (Restoration): Now also reduces the cooldown of your Tranquility spell by 25/50%.
* Mangle (Feral): Now increases the damage done by Maul in addition to Shred.
* Moonglow (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.
* Moonkin Form (Balance) no longer increases your attack power or causes you to regenerate mana off melee attacks, but now has a chance to cause you to instantly regenerate 2% of your total mana every time you critically hit with a spell.
* Nature's Focus (Restoration): Now a 3 point talent, down from a 5-point talent. Also moved to Tier 1, up from Tier 2. Now also includes Nourish.
* Nature's Grace (Balance): Now also reduces the global cooldown of your Wrath spell by 50% while in effect.
* Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
* Nature's Reach (Balance): Now also reduces threat generated by Balance spells by 15/30%.
* New Spell: Revive - Returns the spirit to the body, restoring a dead target to life with health and mana. Cannot be cast when in combat. (Ranks 1-7 added)
* Omen of Clarity (Restoration): Now a passive spell. Now also works for spells (healing and damage). Proc rate is roughly 6% with a 10 second internal cooldown.
* Primal Tenacity (Feral) now reduces damage while stunned by 5/10/15%, and reduces the duration of fear effects by 5/10/15%.
* Remove Curse can now be used in Tree of Life form.
* Soothe Animal can now be used on Dragonkin as well as Beasts.
* Soothe Animal is now instant cast.
* Subtlety (Restoration): Now a 3-point talent, down from a 5-point talent. Also moved to Tier 2, up from Tier 3. Also now only reduced threat for Restoration spells, and reduces the chance that your healing over time spells (Lifebloom, Regrowth and Rejuvenation) will be dispelled, rather than all Druid spells. Threat management for Balance can now be found in the Balance tree, within Nature's Reach.
* Survival of the Fittest (Feral): Increased to 2/4/6%, up from 1/2/3%.
* The mana regeneration penalty when in Bear Form, Dire Bear Form and Cat Form has been removed.
* Tranquil Spirit (Restoration) now also includes Nourish.
* Tree of Life (Restoration): 30% snare penalty has been removed.
* Tree of Life (Restoration): Can now cast Dispel Curse.
* Tree of Life (Restoration): You can now cast all Restoration spells (Healing Touch) in the form, but Tree of Life now only reduces the mana cost of your healing over time spells (Rejuvenation, Lifebloom, Regrowth and Flourish) by 20%.
* Vengeance (Balance): Now also works with Starfall.

Hunter

* All pet families now have one unique ability. New abilities have been added for families such as bears and sporebats.
* Aspects now no longer cost mana.
* Avoidance, Dash / Dive and Cobra Reflexes are now pet talents instead of pet skills.
* Bite now has no cooldown, does the same damage and costs the same Focus as Claw, so works as a Focus dump.
* Clever Traps (Survival) has been renamed "Trap Mastery."
* Concussive Barrage (Marksmanship) - Can now proc from Volley attacks.
* Deterrence (Survival) - Cooldown reduced to 3 minutes, and now also increases your chance to resist spells by 60%. Now has a new spell effect.
* Every hunter pet can learn Growl, Cower and either Bite or Claw (never both).
* Hunter pets can now learn talents in one of three trees depending on family. Pets gain talent points starting at level 20 and earn an extra talent point every 4 levels.
* If a hunter tames a pet that is more than five levels beneath than the hunter's level, then the pet jumps to five levels beneath than the hunter's level.
* Improved Feign Death (Survival): Now also reduces damage taken during Feign Death by 15/30%.
* Loyalty, Training Points and the hunter Beast Training button no longer exist. Hunter pets can now learn all skills at their level. They will get new ranks automatically as they gain levels.
* Master Tactician (Survival) - Chance to proc increased to 10%, up from 6%.
* Monster Slaying (Survival) and Humanoid Slaying (Survival) has been combined into "Improved Tracking".
* New Talent - Improved Tracking (Survival) - Increases all damage done to targets that are being tracked 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Steady Shot now uses ammo. In result, its bonus damage has been slightly reduced. Players can notice a damage increase based upon what ammo they use.
* Surefooted (Survival) now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects by 10/20/30% (instead of resist % chance).
* Trap Mastery (Survival) has been removed.

Mage

* Arcane Focus (Arcane) is now 3 ranks and increases chance to hit and reduces mana cost of Arcane spells by 1/2/3%.
* Counterspell now costs 9% of base mana.
* Frost Armor, Ice Armor, Mage Armor and Molten Armor are no longer Magic effects and cannot be dispelled.
* Invisibility now makes the caster invisible after 3 seconds, reduced from 5 seconds.
* Magic Attunement (Arcane) now also increases the range of your Arcane spells by 3/6 yards.
* Polymorph now costs 12% of base mana.
* Portal spells now cost 18% of base mana.
* Prismatic Cloak (Arcane) now also reduces the fade time of Invisibility by 1/2 seconds.
* Slow Fall now costs 6% of base mana.
* Teleport spells now cost 9% of base mana.

Paladin

* All Auras now affect all party and raid members within the area of effect.
* Anticipation (Protection) moved to tier 1, now increases chance to dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Avenger's Shield (Protection) cast time reduced to .5 seconds, duration increased to 10 seconds.
* Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forebearance, damage increase reduced to 20%, now increases healing done by 20%.
* Blessing of Freedom renamed Hand of Freedom. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. Now costs 6% of base mana.
* Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Blessing of Protection renamed Hand of Protection. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. All ranks now cost 6% of base mana.
* Blessing of Sacrifice renamed Hand of Sacrifice, is now only 1 rank and transfers 20% of the damage taken to the caster, duration reduced to 12 seconds, cooldown increased to 2 minutes. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. Now costs 6% of base mana.
* Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. Now costs 6% of base mana.
* Conviction (Retribution) now increases critical chance with all spells and melee attacks.
* Divine Intellect (Holy) moved to tier 2, increases total Intellect by 3/6/9/12/15%.
* Divine Intervention cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Divine Protection and Divine Shield now cost 3% of base mana.
* Divine Purpose (Retribution) now reduces chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%.
* Divine Strength (Holy) moved to tier 1 in the Protection tree.
* Greater Blessing of Salvation removed.
* Hammer of Justice now costs 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Wrath is now considered a Retribution spell, moved from Holy, mana cost reduced, missile speed increased, now usable on targets below 35% health.
* Healing Light (Holy) moved to tier 2.
* Holy Shield (Protection) cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.
* Holy Shock (Holy) range changed to 20/40 yards when used on enemies/friends respectively, cooldown reduced to 6 seconds.
* Holy Wrath is now instant cast, causes a 3 second stun, cooldown reduced to 30 seconds, radius reduced to 10 yards.
* Illumination (Holy) moved to tier 3.
* Improved Concentration Aura (Protection) moved to the Holy tree.
* Improved Concentration Aura moved from the Protection tree to tier 4 in the Holy tree.
* Improved Devotion Aura (Protection) moved to tier 4, reduced to 3 ranks, now increases armor of Devotion Aura by 17/34/50% and increases all healing done to units affected by Devotion Aura by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Hammer of Justice (Protection) now reduces cooldwon by 10/20/30 secs.
* Improved Righteous Fury (Protection) threat bonus folded into base spell, talent still reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%.
* Improved Sanctity Aura (Retribution) renamed Sanctified Retribution, now causes all units affected by Retribution Aura to cause 2% more damage.
* Improved Seal of Righteousness (Holy) moved to tier 1, renamed XXX, now affects Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption.
* Improved Seal of the Crusader (Retribution) renamed Heart of the Crusader and the effects now apply to all Judgement spells.
* Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health).
* Lay on Hands no longer drains all mana, cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Pure of Heart (Holy) reduced to 2 ranks, now reduces duration of Curse and Disease effects by 25/50%.
* Redoubt (Protection) moved to tier 2.
* Repentance (Retribution) mana cost changed to 9% of base, duration increased to 1 minute (10 second PvP duration), now usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead.
* Retribution Aura damage increased and now gains damage based on Holy spell power.
* Righteous Fury now increases threat caused by Holy damage by 90%.
* Sanctified Light (Holy) now also increases the critical chance of Holy Shock.
* Sanctity Aura (Retribution) removed.
* Seal of Justice/Judgement reduced to 1 rank with all the effects of the previous rank 2, the Judgement effect no longer prevents Fear.
* Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds.
* Spiritual Focus (Holy) moved to tier 1.
* Stoicism (Protection) moved to tier 2, now reduces duration of Stun effects by 10/20/30% and reduces chance your spells will be resisted by 10/20/30%.
* Toughness (Protection) moved to tier 3.
* Turn Undead (ranks 1 and 2) removed. Turn Evil now granted at level 24, mana cost changed to 9% of base.
* Unyielding Faith (Holy) moved to tier 2.

Priest

* Circle of Healing (Holy): Now works on any targets in the caster's raid, and is now a "smart" heal and chooses the lowest health targets to heal first within it's range. Also now has a 6 second cooldown. Also no longer will heal summoned Snakes from Hunter's Snake Trap.
* Enlightenment (Discipline): Now also gives 1% spell damage and 1% heal per point.
* Focused Will (Discipline): Now increases healing effects on you by 3/4/5%, down from 4/7/10%.
* Force of Will (Discipline): This talent now increases your spell damage by a flat amount, rather than increasing your spells by a %. (Now increases school %, rather than selected spells damage %). In other words, your spell damage gained from this talent is now reflected on your character sheet, rather than the skill tool-tips.
* Holy Fire: Cast time reduced to to 2 seconds, down from 3.5. Damage increased roughly 60%. Duration for the damage over time effect reduced to 7 seconds, down from 10. Holy Fire now has a 10 second cooldown.
* Improved Inner Fire (Discipline) - Now also increases the bonus healing on your Inner Fire spell by 10/20/30%.
* Improved Shadow Word: Pain (Shadow) - Now increases damage done by your Shadow Word: Pain by 5/10%, but no longer increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain.
* Levitate now costs 3% of base mana.
* Lightwell (Holy): Cast time reduced to .5 sec, down from 1.5 sec. Charges increased to 10, up from 5. Now breaks from any attack that hits you for 30% or more of your total health. Cooldown reduced to 3 minutes, down from 5.
* Mind Control now has only one rank and costs 12% of base mana.
* Mind Soothe now has only one rank, costs 6% of base mana and has no max target level.
* Mind Vision now costs 3% of base mana.
* New Talent: Improved Spirit Tap (Shadow) - Gives you a 50/100% chance to gain a 50% bonus to your Spirit after gaining a critical effect chance from your Mind Blast or Shadow Word: Death spells. For the duration, your mana will regenreate at a 25% rate while casting. Lasts 8 sec.
* New Talent: Twin Faiths (Discipline) - Increases your damage and healing by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Pain Suppression (Discipline): Cooldown increased to 3 minutes, up from 2.
* Power Infusion (Discipline): Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes, down from 3.
* Psychic Scream now costs 15% of base mana.
* Searing Light (Holy): Now also increases the damage of your Holy Nova and Penance spells.
* Shackle Undead now costs 9% of base mana.
* Shadow Focus (Shadow): Now a 3 point talent, down from 5. Now also reduces the mana cost of your Shadow spells by 2/4/6%.
* Shadow Resilience (Shadow): Now reduces physical damage taken by 2/4%, but no longer reduces the chance to be critically hit by spells.
* Shadowform (Shadow): Now has an innate 30% threat reduction. Now has a shapeshift UI.
* Silent Resolve (Discipline): Now a 3 point talent, down from 5 points.
* Spirit Tap (Shadow) - Talent reduced to 3 points, down from 5. Now also leads into "Improved Spirit Tap"
* Wand Specialization (Discipline) has been removed.

Rogue

* Blade Twisting (Combat) now cause all damaging melee attacks to have a 10% chance to daze for 4/8 seconds.
* Deadened Nerves (Assassination) now reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Fleet Footed (Assassination) now reduces duration of movement impairing effects by 25/50% rather than increasing resist chance.
* Gouge is now only 1 rank and causes damage based on attack power.
* Kick is now only 1 rank and no longer causes damage.
* Nerves of Steel (Combat) now reduces the duration of all Stun and Fear effects by 15/30%.
* Pick Lock and Disarm Trap no longer require Thieve's Tools.
* Premeditation (Subtlety) duration increased to 20 seconds.
* Riposte (Combat) now slows the target's melee attacks by 20% instead of disarming them.
* Setup (Subtlety) chance to gain a combo point increased to 33/66/100%.
* Vanish no longer requires the reagent Flash Powder.
* Vile Poisons (Assassination) reduced to 3 ranks, now increases damage of poisons and Eviscerate by 7/14/20% and increases dispel resistance by 10/20/30%.

Shaman

* All totems are now considered on the "Physical" school, and no longer magical spells.
* Ancestral Knowledge (Enhancement): Now increases your Intellect by 2/4/6%, instead of increasing your total Mana by 2/4/6/8/10%.
* Call of Flame (Elemental): Now also increases the damage of your Lava Burst spell by 2/4/6%.
* Call of Thunder (Elemental) now also increases the critical strike chance of your Thunder spell.
* Concussion (Elemental) now increases the damage of your Thunder and Lava Burst spells.
* Convection (Elemental) is now a 3-point talent, down from a 5-point talent. Now lowers the mana cost of Thunder and Lava Burst.
* Earth's Grasp (Elemental) is now a tier-1 talent, up from tier-2.
* Elemental Detestation (Elemental) is now a tier-2 talent, up from tier-4.
* Elemental Focus (Restoration): Now also can proc off Lesser Healing Wave and Healing Wave, and can be used on all healing spells.
* Elemental Fury (Elemental) now requires Elemental Focus as a pre-requisite
* Elemental Precision (Elemental): Chance to hit reduced to 1/2/3% from 2/4/6%, but threat reduction increased to 10/20/30% up from 4/7/10%.
* Enhancing (Enhancement) Totems is now a Tier 1 talent, up from Tier-2.
* Flametongue Totem is now a flat spell damage totem. All ranks have been modified.
* Frostbrand's snare effect has been increased to 50%, up from 25%.
* Ghost Wolf's mana cost is now 13% base.
* Grace of Air Totem has been removed. (Agility has been rolled over into Strength of Earth Totem)
* Improved Fire Totems (Elemental) is now (again) Improved Fire Nova Totem. It now has a 50/100% chance to stun all targets for 2 sec.
* Improved Lightning Shield (Enhancement) is now Elemental Shields, and is in Tier-1.
* New ranks have been added of Water Shield, starting at level 20. (Level 20, 27, 34, 41, 48, 55, 62, 69)
* New Spell: Earthliving Weapon - Imbue the Shaman's weapon with earthen life. Increases healing done by x and each heal has a 20% chance to proc Earthliving on the target, healing an additionaly over 12 sec. Lasts 30 minutes.
* New Talent: Cleanse Spirit (Restoration) - Cleanse the spirit of a friendly target, removing 1 poison effect, 1 disease effect, and 1 curse effect.
* New Talent: Elemental Shields (Enhancement): Increases the damage done by your Lightning Shield orbs by 5/10/15%, increases the amount of mana gained from your Mana Shield orbs by 5/10/15% and increases the amount of healing done by your Earth Shield orbs by 5/10/15%.
* New Talent: Mental Dexterity (Enhancement) - Increases your Attack Power by 33/66/100% of your Intellect.
* Rockbiter ranks 5 through 9 have been removed. Windfury Weapon is intended to replace Rockbiter at level 30.
* Shapeshifting will no longer cancel Water Walking.
* Shield Specialization (Enhancement) - Now a 2-point talent, and increases the chance to block with attacks by 10/20%, and increases the amount blocked by 5/10%.
* Stoneskin Totem now increases armor instead of reducing physical damage.
* Storm Reach (Elemental): Now also increases the radius of your Thunder spell by 10/20%.
* Strength of Earth Totem now also increases agility.
* Tranquil Air Totem has been removed. (Threat is being addressed by modifications to the base threat of players and/or "baked" into tanking abilities.)
* Unleashed Rage is now raid wide.
* Windfury Totem is now a flat 20% melee haste totem. All ranks have been modified.
* Windwall Totem has been removed.
* Wrath of Air is now a flat 10% spell haste totem.

Warlock

* Aftermath (Destruction) - Now a 2-point talent, down from 5.
* All demon abilities and spells will automatically be learned as pets gain levels. Demon Master trainers will be removed.
* Blood Pact now works raid-wide (not just in party).
* Cataclysm (Destruction) - Now also increases your chance to hit with Destruction spells by 1% per point.
* Curse of Recklessness will no longer prevent Fear effects, only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health).
* Dark Pact: Tooltip updated to be more consistent with other similar effects.
* Demon Armor - Now increases healing done by spells and effects by 20%, but no longer has in-combat health regeneration.
* Demon Skin, Demon Armor and Fel Armor are no longer Magic effects and cannot be dispelled.
* Fel Armor - Now increases your spell damage equal to 30% of your total Spirit, but no longer increases healing done by spells and effects by 20%.
* Fel Stamina (Demonology) has been merged with Fel Intellect into Fel Vitality.
* Howl of Terror now costs 15% of base mana.
* Improved Curse of Weakness (Affliction) is now "Frailty" - Increases the amount of attack power reduced by your Curse of Weakness spell by 10/20%, and increases the amount of armor reduced by your Curse of Recklessness by 10/20%.
* Improved Enslave Demon (Demonology) is now a Tier 5 talent, up from Tier 4.
* Improved Lash of Pain (Destruction) and Improved Firebolt (Destruction) have been merged into one talent, Demonic Power.
* Improved Shadow Bolt (Destruction) - Now increases damage by your next Shadow damage spells by 3/6/9/12/15%, down from 4/8/12/16/20%.
* Mana Feed: Tooltip updated to be more consistent with other similar effects.
* Master Demonologist – Felguard (Demonology) - Now increases all damage by 1/2/3/4/5%, and reduces all damage done to you by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Master Demonologist – Imp (Demonology) - Now increases Fire damage by 1/2/3/4/5%, and critical hit chance with Fire spells by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Master Demonologist – Succubus (Demonology) - Now increases Shadow damage by 1/2/3/4/5%, and critical hit chance with Shadow spells by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Master Demonologist (Demonology) - Most effects have been altered.
* New Talent: Demonic Empowerment (Demonology) - Grants your Summoned Demon power for a short time.
* New Talent: Eradication (Affliction) - Your Corruption, Siphon Life and Curse of Agony ticks have a 5/10/15% chance to increase your spell haste by 20% for 8 sec. This effect has a 10 second cooldown.
* New Talent: Molten Core (Destruction) - Your Shadow spells and damage over time effects have a 5/10/15% chance to increase the damage of your Fire spells by 10% for 6 sec.
* Pyroclasm (Destruction) - Now also includes Conflagrate.
* Shadowfury (Destruction) - Can now be cast while moving. Stun duration increased to 3 seconds, up from 2.
* Soul Link (Demonology) is now an 11-point talent (used to be a 31-point talent), but the 5% bonus damage from this talent has been removed. In addition, the damage absorbed by Soul Link is now 15%, down from 20%.
* Soul Siphon (Affliction): Now also increases the damage of your Drain Soul.
* Suppression (Affliction) is now a 3-point talent, down from 5. Now increases your chance to hit with Affliction spells by 1/2/3%, down from 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Unstable Affliction (Affliction): Silence effect reduced to 3 seconds, down from 5.

Warrior

* Anticipation (Protection) now increases chance to dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%, moved to tier 2.
* Challenging Shout cooldown reduced to 3 minutes.
* Death Wish (Fury) no longer makes you immune to Fear effects.
* Death Wish and Sweeping Strikes have swapped locations in their respective talent trees.
* Defensive Stance now increases threat by 45%.
* Defiance (Protection) removed, replaced by Incite and moved to a new location on tier 2.
* Hamstring now only has one rank and no longer causes damage.
* Improved Bloodrage (Protection) now increases rage generation of both the instant and over-time effects by 25/50%.
* Improved Disarm (Protection) now reduces the cooldown of Disarm and Shield Break by 5/10/15 seconds and increases damage taken by disarmed targets by 4/7/10%.
* Improved Shield Block (Protection) now has 2 ranks and reduces cooldown of Shield Block by 5/10 secs. It no longer increases the number of blocks.
* Iron Will (Arms) now has only 3 ranks, reducing the duration of Stun and Charm effects by 10/20/30%.
* Last Stand (Protection) cooldown reduced to 6 minutes.
* Mace Specialization (Arms) can no longer trigger more than once per 6 seconds.
* Mocking Blow now only has one rank and causes weapon damage, cooldown reduced to 1 min and can now be used in Defensive Stance.
* Overpower now only has one rank and no longer causes any bonus damage (i.e. weapon damage only).
* Poleaxe Specialization (Arms) now also increases critical damage done by Axes and Polearms by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Pummel now only has one rank and no longer causes damage.
* Shield Bash now only has one rank and will cause damage based on a % of AP.
* Shield Block now increases chance to block and amount blocked by 100% for the next attack. Cooldown increased to 30 seconds.
* Shield Slam is now available to all warriors, starting at level 40.
* Shield Specialization (Protection) moved to Tier 1, now increases rage by 2 on a successful block.
* Sword Specialization (Arms) can no longer trigger more than once per 6 seconds.
* Toughness (Protection) moved to tier 3.

Professions

* The following tradeskills are available to train up to 425: First Aid, Herbalism, Mining, Skinning, Enchanting, and Leatherworking.

User Interface

* The /cower emote now has an animation.
* Macros and key bindings are now saved server-side so there is no longer a need to reconfigure them when logging in using another computer.
* Shift-clicking to loot mail: You can now hold Shift and click on mail in your inbox to automatically loot any items and gold without opening the mail. This default behavior can be changed via Auto Loot Mail in the Interface Options (Controls).
* Combat Log Changes:
o The combat log now differentiates between a spell failure due to resistance and spell failure due to missing the target. Where once both events reported as a resist; a spell missing the target is now reported as a miss.
o Overhealing is now reported in the combat log.
o When a source of damage is entirely prevented (by a shield block, a full resist, or a damage shield like Power Word:Shield, the prevented amount will now be displayed.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Ok so after reading through all that shit and looking at the new talents, I hope to god my tank abilities have "high amounts of threat" for the removal of the threat totem and the change to Salvation.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

I also hope they're doing something to balance the scale of melee vs. caster dps in pvp. Unless they don't plan to include weapons over 100dps at level 80 (which is unlikely).

Clothie armor/stamina does not stack up too well against melee damage/stamina as we're going into arena season 4+. There's a point where we have to rely way too heavily on crits and DoT damage ceases to matter.

Sarissa Candyangel

Lemme guess. You're a Warlock and you want to nerf Rogues.

The Hunter 51 Point Talents are all sorta lackluster.

The BM one I can't say much on because I don't know what "exotic' pets mean and the 5 talent points could be borderline OP, the MM one is situational, and I'm waiting for into about the Survival one (which may only be decent because it's on a 6 second cooldown).

On the bright side, the other talents (40-50) look absolutely sick, and I'm going to love rocking survival still.

_________________
There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

Nope, my main is a rogue actually. Just commenting because it's turning into a liability to have a caster on a team of any type if they can't heal. They just get alpha striked in the first ten seconds.

CC is mattering less, and dps casters rely heavily on cooldowns and luck.

Sarissa Candyangel

Uhh. What did they just do to paladins. Salvation became about as useful as windwall totem. I know that tanks are supposed to get "huge threat increases" but come on. This spell became a great griefing tool in battlegrounds.

WotES. Wrath of the Enhancement Shaman. Good times ahead for me.

Warriors got hit pretty hard it looks, should take them down a notch from the undisputed kings of arena but still kinda blows. Hamstring does no damage and cant be spammed now, Overpower taken down a little bit, weapon specialization procs taken to 6secs min means no more 1 round kills on lucky procs. On the plus side it looks like their threat in tanking has been greatly increased, we'll see how that pans out.

Shammys got a nice boost it looks like, at least the totems being physical so they cant be dispelled.

_________________

They nerfed overall melee dps with the chagne to windfury totem, Sarissa. It's just 20% melee haste now.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

I'm talking about PvP, I don't raid.

Or more to the point, the damage that melee do versus a caster's hp and mitigation is scaling faster than it is for a caster versus melee.

Sarissa Candyangel

I got a screenshot of my brother saying Warhammer is losing points bigtime, as soon as we started playing the DK storyline today.

When I finish the area I'll give a synopsis of my impressions as well as pics.

_________________
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Are you on North Rend Sola? I am playing too and my DK is already in the outlands.

Looks like they even further lowered warlocks survivability in pvp. As it is my rogue can tear through a lock with no effort...makes me wonder why they did this.

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

I hate PVP with a passion. How is the raid stuff? How will the PVP welfare epics impact raiding? Is there any hint of further segregation of PVP items and rewards from raiding items and rewards? I wish they would convert a stat like resilience to where it was only valuable in PVP and it was how you avoided PVP attacks (physical and magical).

They should flag welfare epics to only work in Arenas/BGs.

edit: Then again, that would be pretty useless on a PVP server.

Then again it also takes more mindless tedium to get them than it does to raid. And the lack of +hit is punishment enough.

Sarissa Candyangel

Not if you are a shaman, thank god. And there is a lot of pieces out there you can pick up after completing a set of season X gear to tide you over until you can get more into pve. Not to mention the sets only get better, and are just as easy to get.

Took about a week to fully welfare myself out and my PvE performance is more than acceptable. But not like there is much to enhancement PvE anyway. Season 3 will probably go vendor after WotLK. I do not think it will have as large of a PvE impact as Season 1 and 2 has.

I will agree with the tedium bit. Gnomeregan and whatever shit battlegroup has pretty much zero talent to work with and it made even queuing up tedious as fuck. I hate it here so much, but I'm almost finished so I can suffer a bit longer.

Lack of +hit? The Arena weapons have a little +hit (compared to zero on the Blade of Infamy). Infamy + Savagery = +15 hit. Two Merciless swords = +20 hit. Two Vengeful swords = +16 hit. Two Brutal swords = +18 hit.

Come to Ysera, Given. Unless you're playing stinky alliance.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

PvP gear already doesn't "impact raiding" unless you're still in Karazhan.

Resilience is already only valuable in PvP.

PVP gear doesn't only have resilience. Why do you think they put the Arena Rating Requirement on Shoulders and Weapons originally? My guess is because many people were using the PVP shoulders as their PVE gear because there wasn't much better out there (Tier5 can suck an ass).

I will probably end up on Ysera. Been scouting the scene there for a week.

20 AV losses in a row last night on Gnomeregan.

Why didn't you say fuck it and quit after 3? Lol. Self-inflicted pain as punishment for being on a shitty server or something?

I recently rerolled on Cairne. Alliance there. Looking for a place to settle in and re-level to 70 and get ready for WOTLK. Any better servers? No horde please.

Yeah, Tier 5. Exactly. Maybe if you're still raiding content that's a year old, newer PvP gear might seem unfair or something.

But even then, the new badge gear is a bigger thing to complain about from the standpoint of a, "I'm still in SSC and all this new loot is better than what I get off Tidewalker." raider than PvP gear is.

But it's over a year old. Yes, eventually it gets outdated. I'm sorry if raiders that are still in SSC/TK feel shafted somehow that now there's easily-obtainable gear that's better than some of the drops off the trash-bosses in Tier 5 raid instances, but that's progression for you.

And even after all that, for the most part PvP gear is still vastly sub-par for most serious PvE endeavors. Apply for a guild that's past SSC/TK wearing a full Vengeful Gladiator set and you'll generally hear, "lolPvP"

They should ad in a modifier to Boss gear that the more times you kill that boss the slightly better the gear youve already received off that boss kill gets.

IE the more times you kill it the loot you have already gets better.


That could balance out the updates to PVP gear every 6+ months or so.

_________________
"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

So we can get Warglaives after a year of killing Prince? =P

The better solution is to just progress as the game progresses. Stop farming Lurker and move on.

EDIT: Besides, the complaints about PvP gear in PvE are pretty darn misinformed to begin with. Very little PvP gear has any value in compareable level, serious PvE environments. (No, dammit, comparing S4 gear to Attumen drops is not a viable comparison.) However, PvE gear is flat out awesome in PvP for some classes.



Basically it seems as though all flat, passive threat reduction buffs were removed and tanking specs given significant boosts to their threat generation to make up for it. Essentially giving the entire raid the benefit of Salvation without having to buff the entire raid with it every time and eating a blessing slot. So it's a buff to everyone. The new Hand of Salvation replaces the old buff, allowing the Paladin to give someone in the raid a spot threat reduction when needed. And it doesn't eat up a Blessing when you do it.

Overall, it seems like a rather nice change, in effect buffing your entire raid while giving the Paladins a slightly more active ability rather than just another passive blessing.

Because when you are in a losing battlegroup, the objective is to go in, kill Balinda, and destroy 4 towers. At that point, win or lose you got the majority of honor you're getting and I retire to Frostwolf to gank runners for bonus cheese honor.

Lately however, in my battlegroup, there is always one horde per game that caps Snowfall, forces a turtle and we don't even get Stonehearth and up because everyone is too busy throwing themselves at the bridge like it was 3 years ago.

AV honor has always been the best earn/time ratio. Just lately it got really bad.

I wasn't aware that Bovinity was such the elitist, I bow before your Sunwell loot. After all, Tier5 is like sooo many Tiers off the best stuff. Your point was PVP gear doesn't do shit for raiders outside of Kara and my point was 103 DPS weapons and arguably the best shoulders for a character (and even Robes/BPs) can keep you happy all the way through the Black Temple. But I'm only in Molten Core and Kara so what do I know?

Nice try. I knew someone would just ignore the facts and try to play the elitist card.

Fact is, I've never been past SSC/TK either. So it's not elitism. It's just coming to grips with the realization that content that's over a year old, yes, WILL actually get outdated. Yes, if you compare the NEWEST PvP loot to nearly the OLDEST PvE loot, there's a disparity.

Amazing, I know.

But it's stupid logic. In the end, PvP loot is still damn near useless for any serious, COMPARABLE ERA, PvE content. It just lacks the right stats on most pieces.

PVP gear should only be used to supplement gaps in your PVE gear, but your broad generalizations are just totally off, bovinity.

And why should it only be used to supplement gaps? Because it's inferior. Thank you. <3

Thunderheart Leggings
Binds when picked up
Legs Leather
737 Armor
+53 Strength
+41 Agility
+49 Stamina
+12 Intellect
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +2 Strength
Durability 90 / 90
Classes: Druid
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 27 (1.71% @ L70).

vs.

Brutal Gladiator's Dragonhide Legguards
Binds when picked up
Legs Leather
478 Armor
+40 Strength
+41 Agility
+61 Stamina
+34 Intellect
Durability 90 / 90
Classes: Druid
Requires Level 70
Requires personal and team arena rating of 1550
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17 (1.08% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 18 (0.82% @ L70).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 29 (0.74% @ L70).
Equip: Your attacks ignore 84 of your opponent's armor.

The PVP set has the added bonus of resilience counting towards uncrittable for druid tanks.

For most roles, the Season 2 shit will work just fine to get you in on a SSC/TK level. Obviously it isn't the best, but it is better than trying to get in a guild on that level while you show up in TBC dungeon blues. It sure as shit was easier to grab 2 season 2 axes rather than doing Prince over and over.

It isn't about replacing PvE loot. It's about an alternative that allows you to be useful on that level of raiding that you can get on your own time, for free.

I don't see anybody that claimed to get a full set of season 2 and apply to a MH/BT guild.

As far as PvE gear in PvP goes, i'd much rather fight a BT geared warrior with 20k hp than a Season 4 geared warrior with 25k.

But really, what does it all matter anyway? Season 4 will end with the launch of WotLK, and 5 will begin shortly after. Or they will both happen at the same time. Who is going to PvP for level 70 gear when an expansion is just released. Season 3 going to vendor will be useless.

That was obvious.


Heartshatter Breastplate
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
1765 Armor
+63 Strength
+45 Stamina
Durability 165 / 165
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 30 (1.9% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 44 (1.99% @ L70).
(Mother Shahraz in BLACK TEMPLE)

vs.

Onslaught Breastplate
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
1825 Armor
+53 Strength
+34 Agility
+54 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Critical Strike Rating
Durability 165 / 165
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 16 (1.01% @ L70).
Equip: Your attacks ignore 126 of your opponent's armor.
(TIER 6)

vs.

Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
1825 Armor
+39 Strength
+67 Stamina
Red Socket
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Critical Strike Rating
Durability 165 / 165
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 12 (0.76% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 39 (1.77% @ L70).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 24 (0.61% @ L70).
Equip: Your attacks ignore 84 of your opponent's armor.
(Season 3 which came out MONTHS ago)

That isn't the newest PVP loot, that is season 3, which has been out SINCE NOVEMBER and which was out while many guilds were first entering Hyjal/BT. Again, you said PVP gear was only good for Kara and my point was there were a few pieces that could tide people over all the way to the Sunwell. I never tried to make the argument that a full PVP set was fine for PVE, but there are certain pieces that more than get the job done.

IMO PVP reward gear should only work in BG, and arenas. For PVP servers the gear could work everywhere else, other than instanced content.

Yes, and Thunderheart is over a year old. Brutal was JUST released. And a druid tank would still prefer the Thunderheart for tanking anyway. That's over 1000 armor you're losing between the 2. And resilience for crits? What? Are you serious?



Yes, season 3 is somewhat comparable to BT. That was the intention. Yet it was still almost 6 months between BT and S3.

And even so, comparing Onslaught to Vengeful, your DPS warrior loses 14 str, 34 agility, 4 hit rating and some ArP. Does gain a chunk of crit though. In either case it's silly, a DPS warrior would probably be wearing better leather pieces by that point.

Anyway, those are some pretty crappy examples and are basically grasping at straws. Even so, I do admit that my Karazhan comment was a bit extreme, yes. It just irritates me when people try to claim that PvP loot is breaking PvE or something stupid.

I'm guessing you are arguing that defense is better than resilience to become uncrittable, since it's a fact that it goes towards this.

But go play a druid and realize how hard it is to get good gear with actual defense on it and getting uncrittable requires you to waste enchants and gems in many cases.



So yeah, getting resilience "for free" can help alleviate some otherwise poor gemming choices.

Regarding your point on armor, it is very easy to get to the armor cap of 75% DR on a druid. I just switched from resto (of which i had great gear) to feral (of which I have ok gear), and I'm very close to the armor cap already.

But you're playing into my point. By arguing the situational usefulness, you are proving I am right. Depending on your selections, PVP gear can be great supplemental gear for some toons in some situations. And sometimes, it's better.

As for the rest, I think everyone has rather effectively debunked your rant against pvp gear.

It's also easy to hit the defense cap too. In fact, druids have the lowest required defense to get uncrittable. I've never met a druid that complained about it.



Proving you're right about what? You're not even addressing the topic, you're going off on some tangent about gear that's maybe-sorta-kinda useful in a situation that might occur at some point in time. (Non-defense capped druid tank at Black Temple level of progression doing arena for a piece with resilience on it? Uh-huh.)



Um, wait. How is that, exactly? Again, your comments aren't even on the darn topic. I'm glad you found some really, really weak example where a new piece of gear is almost comparable to an item that's over a year old, but I fail to see how that "debunks" anything.

If anything it only goes to prove my point...a piece of brand new PvP gear is still largely inferior for PvE than a piece of gear that's *over a year* old.

Yeah, PvP sure is breaking PvE.

S3 PVP Pally Tank Mace:


Archimonde drop:


Those look a lot alike stat wise. Which is more difficult to get?

Yes, weapons are one place where the PvP gear is very comparable to PvE gear. I won't even try to debate that fact, it's very true. Weapons are somewhat unique in their stat distribution and DPS ratings, and it's hard to make a PvP or PvE only weapon. It's why the weapons got a rating requirement.

Though, don't try getting into "difficulty". That's a debate that really has no resolution to it and will largely be based purely on opinion. PvP guilds have demolished PvE content and PvE guilds have done great in PvP. Both sides will preach the "difficulty" of their side of the game.

In the end, it's still just WoW. "Difficulty" is often a foreign concept.

WoW is as hard as people are willing to make it, haven't people realized this yet?

If you want a PVE challenge, go play with M'uru. If you want a PvP challenge, go be the number one team in your battlegroup, or better yet, go compete for money.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Find me one druid in tanking gear who doesn't use at least one enchant or gem slot on resilience or defense, and you'll be right. Those slots and enchants could be put to better use going full AGI or Stamina, or whatever other combination you want, with the "free" stat on the legs I showed you.

Since no druid gear "comes" with defense or resilience, we spend a lot of time mixing and matching, so yes, it's conceivable that if someone gets a hot new piece of gear with less slots or different stats than their old item, they would need to obtain another item to even out their now-deficient stat.

You won't talk about this because you know it's a valid point. A lot less people will kill Archimonde reliably enough to farm an item than will be running around with S4 weapons. PVP is pretty dependable. Put in your time, be skilled, bam, get whatever item you want. You rely on, at most, 4 other people or even less to help you achieve that goal, not 24 other monkeys who can't stay out of the fire.

I won't talk about it because it's a pointless debate. You can go on and on about how PvP is so simple and that not standing in fire is hard, and there's going to be thousands of PvPers who say that PvP is more challenging and that dodging scripted fire is easy.

Then you'll get people who are successful in BOTH areas that will tell you that BOTH of them are easy. I'm on far more of a casual level now, but I have more than a few friends that got Gladiator in S2/S3 and are currently on M'uru (Might be on K'J, I don't follow THAT closely.) and they'll tell you that both areas are easy and that whining about one or the other being "welfare" is stupid.

6 months does not change the facts. And the facts are there are some PVP pieces that you can wear as you clear BT and never have to replace them. I posted a Black Temple BP, a Hyjal BP, and one you could get from playing 10 Arena games a week for a few weeks. While the Hyjal BP is certainly better, it is not better by that much. A person paying DKP for Tier 6 loot could easily pass on spending his points on the T6 BP and still be able to keep up DPS-wise by using the Season 3 BP. The Heartshatter BP isn't even close to being better than the Season 3 BP (Sockets make a huge difference). It wasn't reaching for straws, it was me showing a very concrete example and you sticking your head in the sand and sticking to an argument that is flat out wrong.

You seem surprised. This is the same person that said EverQuest 1 PvP took more skill than being able to run in a figure 8 pattern while jousting.



Boo hoo. This was never a point of the argument. And people could really give a damn about what you think on the subject.

You came in, guns blazing saying that PvP gear was shit useless for PvE. You were proven wrong with several examples. Nobody even stated that PvP gear was breaking or harming PvE at all. In fact, everyone agreed that PvP is not a complete replacement for PvE gear at all, but was in fact a very usable supplement that could be used in place of, which was easily obtainable by anyone.

Is it a 100% method to upgrade for PvE? No, of course not. But it sure as shit allows you to toss Tier 5 tokens at tanks and healers to gear them up while you DPS improves itself on their own.

Oh, you're right. Loot doesn't age at all. Right-o.





Yeah, no one ever talked about PvP loot impacting raiding at all. Nope.



Oooo, the old "I don't care." line. You're so cool, Givin.

You are the last person anyone on this forum should take seriously concerning anything PvP related.

You had shit for a clue back then, and it's obvious now.

You are the last person anyone on this forum should take seriously concerning anything MMO related.

You had shit for a clue back then, and it's obvious now.

See, I can throw out insults without knowing what the hell I'm talking about too!

For someone that has never even come within 5 miles of me in any MMO ever, you sure do like to try to make it sound like you played with me and I wiped your raids every night or something. Chances are you're hoping no one knows any better and assumes such.

Probably a great thing then. Just remembering half of the bullshit you talked years back about how superior the Zeks were and how EQ pvp made better raiders.

Ah yes, I do remember that you were one of the folks that acted all pissy about the very fact that I played on Sullon Zek at all for some reason. Were you also one of the folks that absolutely flipped out in any thread that made any mention of PvP whatsoever? I don't remember that off the top of my head.

I never really understood why people got so irate over the mention of PvP in EQ. It seems in WoW PvP is accepted, but I do remember quite a few threads here way back when where people just went off the deep end just because someone mentioned PvP in EQ. /boggle

In any case, it's kinda funny. In one post you basically say, "You know nothing about PvP." and then in the next post basically say, "Damn you for having played on a PvP server." I'm sorry, where did you play to get any large-scale PvP experience in EQ? Yeah, so shut up about it already.

If you want to argue with me about WoW, be my guest. In fact, come on over to my server to show me what a big PvP badass you are. But if you want to try to pull out some insults about things that happened over half a decade ago and that you clearly know nothing about to fill your usual role of being the cool guy that insults his way through threads, then don't act surprised when I call you on it.

EQ day 1 till the day Lanys came up, on Rallos. You know, the real Zek pvp server? Where real PvP guilds were like The Regulators, The Syndicate, Banana Boys/KoC and a host of others that went on to make other PvP guilds in DAoC and beyond.

Elidrin was there too.

I can do this OG shit all day if you want. If you want to argue street cred in PvP, I'll let Shareef tell you about the Duke Boys, The Barman Shanker, Kalimdor Highway Patrol or Camp Irony.

I don't give a shit that you came from a PvP server. I hate your fucking face because you spent 10 pages of a thread telling everyone here how awesome EQ pvp made players when it was nothing more than who could run around and joust and bag their shit the fastest. And now you are back spinning your wheels in the mud about more obnoxious horse shit that has been proven wrong time and time again.

Oh, well done. You've actually tried to PvP.

/golfclap



Holy shit, are you serious? You're still over there emo'ing out over a thread that had to have happened at LEAST five years ago? And that I don't even recall?

Wow. Way to fail. I thought you were big tough Givin that didn't give a shit about anything, but this has to be one of the funniest things anyone has said to me on a board in ages.

I think I'll just pack up and enjoy this now. Toodles.

What happened to the big tuff "You dont know shit about pvp and i'm one hard sullon zek nigga." horseshit? Your PvP dick melt? I almost remember you being a bard, and using that as base of all your PvP golden nuggets of corn laden shit.



If posting incorrect bullshit a decade ago, and continuing the tradition in present day is your terms of victory, well I guess savor it.

Joxor could you supply this man with a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner?

That's actually funny.

But no, please, continue. It's like you keep working so hard to dig this hole for me, then you trip over your shovel and fall right into it. Then stand there at the bottom looking up and convincing yourself that you pushed me into the hole but we're all just upside down now or something.

Just keep going. Please.

I would Givin, but the guy is already following me around posting behind me. I'm afraid he's gonna show up at my house with a 12" strap on.

I like ya both, and I'm not really going to step too far into this, but:



Really? I mean... really? one thread 5+ years ago, and you still "hate his fucking face?" damn, heh... it was a long time ago. Let it go, bud .

Haha this is great, EQ WAS THE BOMB WITH PVP OH MY GOD.

...

_________________
"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

I'll again say that Archimonde is probably the hardest boss pre-Sunwell. I think there are other examples where the comparison is a little less stark.

Still, even in this example, I think it would totally depend on the person. Some people absolute suck balls at pvp - those with 1200 ratings and so forth. For them, they would probably jump up and down screaming that Archimonde is way easier(although your classic "PVE ONLY PVP IS GHEY" person on the WoW forums will probably say pvp is stupid anyway as an excuse to why they suck).

I've always been fond of the idea that PVE and PVP transfer over a bit item-wise. I enjoyed gearing myself out in PVE and then strutting around with that stuff in PVP. I also enjoyed pvping to High Warlord and smashing PVE face. And I still do enjoy the fact that you need to go to PVE to get some of the higher end weapons(such as Cat Edge) to have even greater success in some PVE situations(thought admittedly 2v2 and 3v3 is centered around mace spec to a degree).

I guess I just don't see the big deal. I do both PVE and PVP, and there's always a lot of complaining and whining on the PVE side about how PVP is infringing so much. The weapons are great, especially for starting out, but I'd say some of the other stuff like the armor has fairly comparable gear, especially once you're in BT. If you're going to fully gear yourself out in that armor, you'll need to spend at least a few months collecting the points for it unless you're on a post-2000/2200ish rated team. The thing is, if you're on 2200 rated team what you're doing there is probably harder than anything you're raiding, period(perhaps less so in the 5v5 bracket since you can get carried a little bit, but still).

So really what is the big deal? You get a few choice good items from PVP to fill up a few slots. A good chunk of PVE gear WITH set bonuses will often edge you out over the PVP gear for PVE purposes, depending on the class.

Look on the bright side if you're a steadfast "do-nothing-but-PVE": 85 percent of all released fresh content is released for you. PVPers get ONE battleground per expansion for fresh new content, you get brand new zones to explore every patch. The different arena seasons are nice, and I think arenas were a great addition to the PVP world, but tossing out new armor every few months hardly qualifies as new content. But hey, at least in the past year we got a new arena: Ruins of Lordaeron!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly shedding tears over the current PVP situation - as noted, I enjoy raiding as well. But diehard PVE'ers have no room to complain when it comes to PVP infringing on their game when 85 percent of it is, and always will be, for them.

You are allowed to complain when the biggest change to your side of the game in 4 different patches is that cyclone's cast range got nerfed by 10 yards.

Good point and I agree with you.

Says the guy who has only killed raid bosses already on farm status.