People were talking about Risen quitting or something tonight in vent.

Whats the deal? Are you still playing?

I've heard some rumors about some of the higher end guilds being fairly ticked off at the amount of raid content in the 2.4 patch. Not sure if Kil'jaedan is down yet but most of the zone is cleared. Dunno if that's what happened with Risen.

Bleh, I need to look around more before I post:

http://www.risen-guild.com/

Second post down is the announcement about leaving. Good post, too. Couldn't help reading it and nodding in agreement completely all the way through. This part in particular:



Also, Sunwell worse than BT? Ugh =/

Personally I think there's still some fun to be had in the game(I'm still not tired of arenas! I still somewhat enjoy doing BT, even though most of the bosses so far feel boring, same with all of Hyjal), but it seems like the frustration is growing with the lack of content, not to mention challenging content.

The guy in that quote has ridiculous expectations. I expect he's never going to actually be happy with whatever they do.

He's got a few good points tho. Blizzard has the most popular mmog with the highest subscriber rate making the most income of any online game in history....Yet with all their income they have put out one whopping expansion, few content patches and have had the same battlegrounds with the exception of EoTs for eons now.

They've been doing nothing new and now you've even got the old carrot on a stick patch 2.4 to keep people grinding to the expansion.

New dungeons, new bgs, new classes, new races, new...something would be nice.

While it'd be nice to say that they should turn out 3 new 5-mans a month... that's just fucking ridiculous. Seriously, at the end of the year you'd have 36 new 5-man runs and none of them would be used when the next expansion came out. Waste of resources and time, plus there's only so much shit you can do. Can't make something unique when you're forced to do so much content...

Exactly. they spent so long designing the old world, and how much use do the high end dungeons see now?

It's a waste of their time. They're coming out with an expansion late this year/early next (the latter's more likely imo), so all their design efforts are pointed there. Honestly, be *happy* you have Sunwell coming in 2.4, cause that's the last new content we'll see for six to eight months.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

While his expectations are a bit out there, he's got a fairly good point. Pre-TBC, players were given so much free content at pretty regular intervals.

1.2 - Maraudon 12/18/2004
1.3 - Dire Maul 3/7/2005
1.4 - Original Honor System 4/8/2005
1.5 - Battlegrounds (AV and WSG) 6/7/2005
1.6 - Blackwing Lair 7/12/2005
1.7 - Zul'Gurub and a new Battleground (AB) 9/13/2005
1.8 - Silithus and the 4 Green Dragons 10/10/2005
1.9 - Ahn'Qiraj (20 player raid and 40 player raid) 1/3/2006
1.10 - Nothing really important 3/28/2006
1.11 - Naxxramas 6/20/2006
1.12 - Cross-Realm Battlegrounds 8/22/2006
2.0.1 (Last patch before TBC) - New Honor System, Arena System, Preparation for TBC 12/5/2006

Then look at the patches released with TBC so far...

2.1 - Black Temple 5/22/2007
2.2 - Voice Chat 9/25/2007
2.3 - Zul'Aman 11/13/2007

In the year thats passed since TBC was released we saw 3 patches, only 2 of which contained any playable content. Now, I'm fairly sure Blizzard intended it to pretty much be that way because of the way they designed Outland they really didn't leave a whole lot of room for "Future Content" like dungeons/raid instances/etc. And they have added lots of new 'things', but most of which revolve around doing the same things over and over again for added rewards (IE Dungeon Daily Quests, Cooking Quests, PvP Daily Quests, etc).

Personally, I think they need to go back to the older method of releasing content at a steady pace...a patch with new content (even if its like 1 new 5 Man dungeon) at least every 3 months. I'd really like to see another dungeon like The Deadmines...I always loved that place because it feels like an old school D&D Module style dungeon. Maybe with WotLK they'll try something new.

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People are going to have to learn to stop linking success to quantity. It should be linked to quality.

Just because you become insanely rich or profitable doesn't mean putting out more will make you more successful. If anything, it may dilute your product.

This can easily be seen in real world examples. Take the auto industry, for example. You have Mercedes-Benz, one of the most recognizable and respected brands in the automobile industry, making 2 horrendous mistakes when they had a high margin of profitability. First, they merged with Chrysler, supposedly to merge technologies.....where did that get them? That abortion of a car called a Crossfire, and then eventually they had to sell off Chrysler at a huge loss. Secondly, they have released way too many models, to the point several of their smaller lines are having difficulty with quality control. Before, a Mercedes automatically meant you were getting a great car. Now, you have C, E, M, ML, G, S, CL, SL, CLK, AMG versions.....lots of classes, with a WIDE variance in quality. C-Class is basically shit, but it still carries the Mercedes label. So now, because you decided to pump out a ton of cars, your quality control goes to shit, your overhead is higher, and your marquee name is no longer what it used to be.

The same can be said of Jaguar. They turned profitable after launching a few successful lines, and then they let their success get to their heads, they opened a second plant, they pumped out a bunch of models that couldn't match their original quality, and now the company is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Blizzard has always been slow with release of expansions. Always. All games. Starcraft 2 is coming out like....a decade?....since the original. How many Command and Conquer versions did you have to put up with since then? What are they up to now? 4? 5? Haven't they basically driven that franchise (C&C) to the ground? You give a franchise like Diablo or Starcraft to Electronic Arts, and you will be playing Diablo '08 and Starcraft '08 on your Xbox and PS3 this summer, which would be like 1% different than the '07 version (new maps! better graphics! new pieces! Tiger Woods now an unlockable character!). Would that make you feel better?

In fact, as a businessman, I don't really understand Blizzard when it comes to WoW. I would have released Battlegrounds/Arenas as an expansion and charged $20 a box......if even 1/2 of the players bought it (conservative by any measure), that would be an extra 80 million dollars gross revenue. Silithus and AQ would have been an expansion pack. Black Temple and Arena season 2. Sunwell and new 2.4 badge loots....can you imagine? Game plays the same, but 2.4 badge loots only available if you have the Sunwell expansion. Again, an extra $80,000,000 with each expansion. They should've taken this page from the Sony playbook. But they don't. So kudos to them for sticking to the business model and strategy that made them successful in the first place, and not deviating from it just because now they are rich and famous.

You are retarded. No one pays for an expansion for one zone. That is just completely fucking stupid. Especially when all said zones are are a raid instance you would have to be keyed for.

That type of bullshit spewed right there is why no one ever takes you seriously, or at least never has since I've read these forums.

Edit: I forgot to mention this. You talk about following the Sony example in one sentence and talk about Quality being more important than Quantity in another. So, which way is it trigger? Because you're likely not going to get both.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

They're slow. Nekrotic is right on some of his points.

This is a company that is releasing Starcraft 2 with 0 fucking innovation of the RTS genre. Diablo 2 was an absolute joke - not only did it not significantly advance the genre it's in, it even used the same sound files for some of the animations. It was a good game, but it was neither quickly released nor innovative. But their games are pretty much always high quality, imho.

They might not be one zone, but quite a few are on par with what blizzard has added as "free" content.

The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)
The Planes of Power (October 2002)
The Legacy of Ykesha (February 2003)
Lost Dungeons of Norrath (September 2003)
Gates of Discord (February 2004)
Omens of War (September 2004)
Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
Depths of Darkhollow (September 2005)
Prophecy of Ro (February 2006)
The Serpent's Spine (September 2006)
The Buried Sea (February 2007)
Secrets of Faydwer (November 2007)

Nekrotic has decent points, but it's the wrong market. If you compare it to that market...SOE has never had anywhere *near* the number of subscribers.

The people who play WoW are people who are used to being able to play online content for free. Team Fortress 2, monthly subscription cost? $0.00.

One could argue that they'd make more money charging even nominal subscriptions (as clans beg money for running servers, etc.) but they would not necessarily be making MORE money, just DIFFERENT money.

There's quite a few people who've said that if Blizzard had only sold the product and made the online content free, they'd have made even MORE money (of course charging for bits of content under Nek's suggestions). Not more, merely different. And ultimately...probably less.

Blizzard makes $15.00 a month per active account. They could afford to give Burning Crusade away for free, quite frankly. They just don't need to. The majority of subscribers will have to buy it, or else be excluded from a tremendous amount of content.

Not having this, or that? It's similar to lacking keys. I know people who raid high end content now, and never bother to key for Kara. KARA for fuck's sake. Why bother when they can scoot and loot much better? It would fuck up content for everyone else when you're dealing with who has and who doesn't have and trying to get the haves (and dealing with have nots in your own guild when it's an issue of purchasing something).

Much easier to make big whompin' expansions that any reasonable human being can see the value of buying rather than demanding 'free' ...and continuing to rake in the cash from the subscriptions. Subscriptions which continue because of such content to boot.

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I said Outland should be bigger from the get go. I also think Blizzard isn't producing content fast enough, but they could barely keep up pre BC.

My point was, you can't package, say, Sunwell Isle, into an expansion. There isn't enough content there for an expansion. You don't have nearly enough addition to the game to warrant it. Now, if you were to combine all of the free content? Sure, that's an expansion.

I've been goofing off in other games than WoW because there isn't enough content. I'm not done with Illidan by any means. I'm just bored other than being in a raid zone.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

Yeah a lot of people are getting bored in WoW at the moment unfortunately. And the solution to that?

BADGE LOOT.

Meh. TF2 is fun as hell, though I wish there was at least one token female character for fuck's sake.

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I bet the percentage of people bored with WoW is fairly small. I think the people who comprise "hardcore" are the ones most likely to be bored, and that's a very small percentage of the player base.

I'm not particularly bored yet, because I play the game fairly casually and am just at the end of SSC/TK in progression. There's tons of the game left for me to experience. I have various pve and pvp goals that I'm not close to meeting. I rarely log in and can't think of anything I want to work on. That being said, the people I see who are not as far into the game as I am, progression wise, VASTLY outnumbers the amount of people I see who are further. The people who are bored are the vocal ones, to be sure, but I hardly think they're all that significant a segment of the player base.

In my view, Blizzard is releasing content at a fairly brisk pace. Faster than I'm able to consume it, given my time commitment to the game. I believe I'm above average in the amount of time I play, so they're already at a pace where the majority of their subscribers will not be able to "complete" the content they release before there is more to do. Therefore, these subscribers will have to skip content as they move on to new. Why make even MORE content that the majority of your customers won't use? Is it really all that significant that a top end raiding guild of maybe 2-300 people quits when you have 40 million subscribers?

I don't really expect them to change much anytime soon. There's really not any good reason to do so, currently.

You could be right. But with the dumbing down of content (whenever they remove key requirements)...you'll hit that wall pretty soon.

But if you're having fun, that's what it's all about, or should be. I'm REALLY not 'hardcore', but I got bored. But I rerolled horde, and lo and behold the game is fun again because I've never played horde.

So yeah, there's plenty of stuff to do certainly, but if people are hyper focused on one area (raiding, arenas, etc) it can feel like you've petered out a year later.

But Lich King is coming. I have no real complaints about Blizzard, other than I wish they had made more instances accessable, and made the leveling from 60 to 70 perhaps even slower. I could have had fun leveling via those instances for a month or three.

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We had this same discussion in vent last night and no matter how badly we vent our frustrations, Leythos said it best in the end.

It's about money, the bottom dollar, end of story. The people farming badge loot and people that are going to gimp along in BT Hyjal are their bread and butter and vastly outweigh the D&T's, the Risen's, the Nihilium's etc. You <as a guild> do not mean jack or shit to them.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

It's not just about money for reasons Nekrotic already outlined; Blizzard is here for the long term, not to make a quick buck.

If anything, Blizzard knows the hardcores that consume content at silly rates will simply stick around for lack of anything better. They're not not releasing content to save money, it's simply to avoid overwhelming the average player. It's rather sad that people cannot appreciate the fine balance that exists here.

In the end, they have a massively diverse audience to try and please and thus compromises have to be made.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

You had me at hello.

More to the point.....who are you? When did I piss in your corn flakes? You're name reminds me of some beastlord that used to play EQ, someone's brother I think....

If you did bother playing EQ, then maybe you would have realized that you paid for expansions with FAR LESS THAN EVEN A SINGLE RAID ZONE. Felwan already posted the expansions. Maybe you played a few? Granted, some of the expansions were well worth the cost, I got a lot of play out of Kunark, Velious, and PoP....the rest was crap though.

Legacy of Ykesha gave you what raid zone? I remember Frogloks being playable, armor dyes, and extra bank slots. And people still bought it. I was one of them.

What about LDoN? Did you buy that? Play that? Where was the raid zone there? I think it was the introduction of instancing in EQ, and augments maybe. That's it. People still bought it. I was one of them.

So come again Uluth Gak.....people paid for LoY and LDoN, and you don't think people would pay for Sunwell and new badge loots? Please tell me you're not an adult, that you are maybe 13 years old and haven't taken high school economics or something. Please tell me you aren't naive to believe if people are willing to pay for shit like LoY, they wouldn't be willing to pay for a Naxx/AQ expansion, a BG/Arena expansion, or even a Sunwell expansion.



If your reading comprehension was better, you would realize I am arguing in favor of Blizzard keeping up with quality over quantity. The expansion example was just to point out the fact that if Blizzard had charged us for the stuff they had already put out (to make this easier for you, they aren't adding any more quantity are they? It's stuff they have already put out), stuff that Sony would have readily charged us for, like extra bank slots and instancing, they could stand to make more money than they already do. But again, that's not their business model, so props to them for that.

The point Uluth, isn't what does and doesn't constitute an expansion. Certainly LDoN and LoY are barely passable as expansions from our standards. The point is that Blizzard could just release Sunwell as a paid expansion, and people would still lap it up or feel an obligation to buy it. To think otherwise is just....what's your word? Retarded.

They've got WoW (of course), WoW:WotLK, Starcraft 2, and the "Top Secret" Next Gen MMO they recently started (according to the Blizzard website)...

Though I agree that they should do a better job at releasing content at better intervals, I'm fairly certain a lot of that money they make off of the WoW subscriptions every month goes to fund the above projects as well as Vivendi taking their share of the profits.

It isn't all about the money for Blizzard obviously, and quality over quantity is important...but as my previous example outlined, they did do a much better job with balancing the two when they had more of their dev teams focused on the one game. With 4 (and probably more) big projects on the table (and with the FAR LARGER subscription number then 2 years ago), I'm not 'shocked' that it takes far longer to get content out.

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I didn't say one raid zone. Nither LDoN nor LoY had a raid zone. They had more than one zone, however, varying in difficulty. Sunwell will be one large area, a 5 man, and a 25 man. The 25 man you may as well scratch for most people as being part of the real content they're releasing. Most people wouldn't be getting said expansion to raid sunwell. Note: All of this also will be level 70. Or at least 68ish+.

Other than Sunwell Plateu, you have Magister's Terrace, a 5 man likely completeable in 2 hours (for a PuG on day 1), and the dailies. That's it. How little content is that comparatively even to LDoN?

That's my point. If you bottled up ZA, BT, and Sunwell Isle into one package deal, yes, that would mimic the content of even the crappiest EQ expansions.

My point, again, was you couldn't release Black temple in and of itself as an expansion, or ZA, as you previously suggested. People wouldn't go for that, if all you are getting is one area.

I guess my point is, if you're adding an expansion, you should add a varying degree of difficulty to the entire thing. Not just a raid zone, and a few daily quests. But, stuff for multiple levels. Such as every XPac for EQ did, even the crappy ones like LDoN and LoY.

Making BT, or Sunwell, it's own expansion, would be like having to pay to grind to 80, then pay to raid in Lich King.

And wow, you remembered I was a beastlord. I'll admit it. I didn't think anyone here would ever remember me save Faeadari, and maybe Vexana. You shocked me. That is serious too. Kudos sir.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

I agree with this completely, as well as most of what Khameir said there. They are releasing at a much slower pace - in part because they are working on WOTLK, but also because they don't really need to. Even if the hardcore 1-2 percent of their playerbase gets bored, that 98 percent would be MORE than enough to keep the riches flowing. That much is obvious.

I think the problem is that when you neglect the hardcore, you're also in a way neglecting a larger segment of the playerbase. Some of these hardcore guilds and players people look up to(or look down on, depending on your perspective). But they also look to this: Is that player still having fun - is there somewhere I can go BEYOND where I am now, become a little more hardcore closer to where that guy is - and still have content and fun things to do? If the answer starts to lean towards no, then those slightly more casual players have less to look forward to. That's the crux of the problem that extends beyond "just the hardcore" IMO.

Pleasing the hardcore is more than just about pleasing them alone. It's about ensuring everyone has something to look up and beyond the horizon to. If everyone feels like they're already on top, whether they spend 20 hours to get +50 stamina or 45 hours to get +55 stamina, they're not going to feel as much incentive to go that extra mile. Less to look forward to alienates more of the playerbase than just the hardcore.

My biggest issue as a frequent pvper is the complete lack of content there. Do you SERIOUSLY think it's not feasible to make ONE new battleground to rotate out every YEAR? Seriously. EOTS was the last one, and it's been 1.5 years since its release(at least in beta, it was finished at that point, 1 year if you wanna get technical). Even one new arena every 6 months would be great. I mean if PVE content is being thrown out at a snail's pace, PVP content is pretty much a rock sitting in place.

Anyway... yea, we all get the "quantity vs. qualty" arguments. However, that's stupid. There has to be a better medium between quantity and quality than what we have right now. There's also such a thing as an overcooked meal, and too many chefs preparing the dish, which is precisely what Blizzard is doing. I think most people would settle for slightly less quality than we have right now(if you can call it quality at this point) to get just a little more quantity and things to do(Also still no alternate advancement system, what the fuck.. ok sorry been down that road already).

Almost forgot: Want to buy new 5-man zones that come out more frequently than every 1.5 years. Thx.

The problem as I see it was in the initial launch, and it's hurting them from day one of TBC launch.

Putting in 10 man required raid content to get to the 25s, after completely redoing your raid structure. It was a culture shock to the majority of their playerbase.

Didn't have 40 for Molten Core? No problem running it with 35 37 or whatever. Wait for people to log in. Now, you dont have X amount of Y class for a 25? You're fucked. Sure you ran into a similar situation occasionally in old world "no warlocks for Gar and not enough tanks" but it was workable.

It is bullshit micromanagment that adds more headache than should be there.

Badge loot? At a glance it would piss me off. After weeks of seeing the same fucking loot drop because we all know random loot is random this is actually a godsend. Now there is an alternate route to take to gear up for progression. On the other hand i do think they may be getting a bit silly, I'm sure the prices will change on PTR for that sunwell shit.

The mistake is, it is impossible to do heroics for badges with pubbies. They are terrible at the game. Lowering the requirment for entry was a huge mistake. Now all you find for heroics are people in shitty greens and mid 60 blues seeking. I even read a thread the other day from some guy that was crying the price of the heroic keys were too much for what they did.

For WotLK I really wish they would have borrowed from Sony's playbook and gave players more than one route to the finish line. AKA a Giant/Dragon/Dwarf faction path with unique rewards.

Untill WotLK however, I think I would have utilized some of my old content by adding in a new raid daily. Heroic Old World Dungeons for maybe badges or something.

More entry level 10 mans also. Give them a week timer, fine. But give more options.

And the cesspool known as heroic shadow labs?

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

I didn't want to switch servers, and I didn't want to scrub it up in some struggling T5 guild to get to T6 content, and it's nothing but frustration to watch lazy rogues get taken to a raid over me. Being benched for a raid pisses me off to no end, even if there's a point system where I get attendance for just being outside. That being said, outside of raiding, there's very little to do for someone who has as much time on their hands as I do.

Arena, once a week. Even if I had a competitive team, the only time we'd likely grind points is the end of the season to get gladiator. I never had a competitive team, and it's too late in the game to make one, cuz my server doesn't have too many good PvPers to go around. That left me with farming, running crap instances I needed nothing from, or leveling an alt, and getting them to the same point. In fact I did that once already, priest in 3/5 S3 2/5 S1. :/ So doing it again really wasn't appealing.

I suppose it is partially my fault for not wanting to move servers, but it's shitty that I'd have to if I wanted to enjoy anything in WoW.

I always thought leading up to TBC and still think to this day, that a raid setup of 15 man and 30 man raid content

would have been a ton better than 10/25, dropping that many people from a raid force elimnated alot of dead weight

players, but it also left you high and dry and having to recruit alot more if you lose 2-3 permanent raiders, which always

happens during an expansion.

you suddenly had 15 extra people who had to sit around outside of raids and 99% of those pvped for a while and quit or

hardly play, or they quit right away and or hardly play.

I personally noticed that recruitment was almost a constant thing after about 6 months into TBC

Yeah, where are the new Battlegrounds, and the SEASON 3 Arena?!? Its almost Season 4, and still no new map to play in. Blizzard has become real lazy, or they don't have the man power to work on all the content the game really needs.

After all this time, there is still NO class quest series to get armors, weapons and other class only epics (think EQ Epic quests). Other than PvP and raiding....what else is there to do in this game? Not much at all really. I hope Conan and Warhammer Online hurts WoW's userbase because the game needs new content other than new raid instances. Blizzard needs add some new types of ideas to help keep the game fresh.

Whatever.

I really don't care if they come out with Epic quests for each class because even if they do, people will still bitch. It'll be an Epic Dagger for Rogues, so Sword/Mace/Fist Rogues will be screwed, it'll be some great Healing mace for Priests, so Shadow Priests will complain, etc. Just because EQ had "Epic Weapons" doesn't mean it would be a good idea for them to be in WoW. You say "Blizzard needs add some new types of ideas to help keep the game fresh," but you want them to rehash old shit. No thanks.

I don't want them to rehash anything, but rather take MMO's to the next level. New ideas that have never been seen in other game to date.

When I said WoW does not have Epic class content, is because Blizzard is being lazy, or they don't have the staff to add more content ingame other than raid instances for the most part

Eli went back to FFXI because WoW was boring.

The guy that posted on Risen's front page (Failure) is also playing FFXI again.

Fuckin' A. I'd love to see that too. I kind of first thought that was what was going to happen with the new "factions" in TBC. Seriously letdown IMO since Aldor and Scryer are not only the same in almost every aspect, but there are no other advantages such as exploring different dungeons and areas like EQ. You actually felt like you WERE part of a faction there, in WoW the biggest difference I see is when I pop into Shatt to throw on my new shoulder enchant.

EQ actually had a lot of great ideas looking back on it. WoW has a lot of different things going for it too - namely polish, good gameplay, more interesting raid encounters. In all honesty I swear if WoW would take some of the things from EQ's playbook it would be absolutely unstoppable. I don't think you run a risk of "becoming like the EQ grindfest" by taking some of its great ideas and adding to an already-great infrastructure which WoW has. Even though I'm still not a big fan of the limited class/race number, WoW would benefit a lot and hurt itself very little by adding that idea, Alternate Advancement points, some variation on epic quests, player housing, and throwing in a few non-instanced dungeons. Along with all the little things like more 5-mans and new battlegrounds. That's pretty asking for "everything and pie plz" but even a few of those things would be a welcome addition.

Yes, I agree with you Venen. I used to sell all the rep items I got for the Aldor and Scryers. Because there was ONLY one item that was useful to me. The shoulder enchant, and I thought it was stupid to grind the rep for one rewards.

I'm hoping the expan will improve and make different factions worth a damn. Both the Aldor and Scryers have weak rewards, and does not make it worth the effort over all. To me at least.

Wow this made it over here I guess? Yah we are done with WoW for now and a few of us are playing FFXI a bit. The members that still enjoy the game somehow have for the most part transferred to other guilds. It's been a long time coming for myself. Logging on night after night doing the same BT/Hyjal runs since god knows when has been a real exercise in patience. It's somewhat disappointing that they're gravitating towards all this badge stuff but I don't fault them for it all. It's all about making the money and the "hardcore" crowd is such a small percentage, I doubt they care much. The reward vs time invested isn't really there anymore, so we'll play casually if at all. I *want* to enjoy the game, I still think it's by far the best MMO out there and probably on the horizon, but for some reason it's lost it's fun. Sunwell was really not that impressive to me on PTR, so I hope WOTLK turns out ok.

edit: Oh by the way, what were we, US 3rd to kill Illidan? Yah.. 2 Skulls of Guldan and 1 Warglaive. Thanks Random Number Generator.

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Avelle <Risen>
80 Mage
Ner'zhul Server (Fuck Illidan)
Avelle 75 PLD/DRG/DRK/BRD
Midgardsormr - Active again
Elidrin 75 Paladin
Midgardsormr - Retired
Elidrin 65 Ranger
Lanys T'Vyl - Retired