Did Aran last night, we one shotted him. Seems like the fight is seriously nerfed now. It's not that I'm begrudging loots to other guilds or groups (my 'guild' is just a personal tag, I raid with another guild) that can't do things as well or whatever, it just seems like the game eventually gets dumbed down.

I've talked with people about this, and seem to get the standard 'hates teh uber guildz' attitude from people. It seems as though many people have a sense of casual gamer entitlement, believing that anything should be in reach of even the most casual gamer.

You could probably pug much of Kara now, I'd bet. Though Prince is still a bitch due to random infernal placement.

Anyway, just wondering what people's attitudes are here about the dumbing down of things. Maybe I'm too EQ elitist, but I like difficult challenges. I LIKE being able to do certain content because the small group I run with is very professional, and knows their shit. I'm not saying shit should be so hard that it's only doable by the 'most' elite of elites or anything, but I don't enjoy feeling like it's a breeze either.

Aran is just my favorite example, because he was always a bitch. Maiden is stupidly easy, Morose is easy if you have priests who know how to shackle correctly (and you can deal with the nasty damage he puts on one person), and Curator seems so easy now, we could have had him the first evocate if we had really unleashed on it.

Maybe I'm just being too snobby, I don't know. :\ I won't even get into Gruul (esp. since I did it first time this week, couldn't go previously because the night of it was a conflict for me...but I get the impression he was once much tougher).

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It's hard to comment about Kara in this regard since the zone is so retarded.

If they tuned the zone so that a competent group of mostly any class makeup could accomplish each encounter without swapping, I might have a stronger feeling about dumbing down Aran. I've only tried him once, so I can't really comment on that pos.

I really think the specialized cc of each class has fucked up this game. Maybe it was a positive at one time, but the fact that each class has a type of mob they can cc, and only that type (for the most part) contributes significantly to the problem.

They should have generalized the roles and given each role more broad coverage. For example, define two types of cc; straight up "mez" and root/trap/fear and give the classes they want to cc those abilities, but instead of having one class that can cc undead, one class that can cc humanoids, etc., give each one limited capabilities to cc all, with their own respective strengths and weaknesses. It's made me appreciate EQ more in this regard. As a bard I could cc just as well as an enchanter but had to work a bit harder.

They've compounded this by artificially tuning encounters and even trash to make it more difficult. Some mobs are tauntable, some aren't. Some are trappable, some aren't. Some are stunnable, some aren't. Some are interruptable, some aren't. Totally arbitrary.

Well, I can't comment on instances, for I rarely do them.

I do love to do all the quests in an area, and find that when it gets down to the group ones (either 2, 3 or 5 man) they are super easy and 1 person able- or a total bitch and no pug group will ever get it done.

I do almost everything by myself or with hubby, I like seeing things highend- things in EQ I was unable to until in a raiding guild. I do find that a lot of people have no clue how to play their class at 70. They shout and shout for help, on something I solo'd very easily with very crap gear. Then I do group up with some excellent players that just blow me away, and we could take down the world.

I can see how you are saying things have been dumbed down, we do things in wow we could never do in eq. That being said, as much as i truely loved eq- I could never go back, i am spoiled and like being able to solo everywhere, to mana/heal up so quickly, and no zone loading times! But yeah... some harder material would be nice every now n then.

While most of Karazhan seems to be nerfed, I don't think the Shade fight was nerfed any, other than the hitpoints on the elementals seem to have been reduced. The Blizzard seems to take up more space and move a little quicker than it did before, and the Shade, himself, seems to focus fire a bit more than he did before. Perhaps you were just playing with better folks or maybe you just had better luck with the randomness of his spell casting (people not being caught in a Flame Wreath while getting hit with the Blizzard, for instance). It may have been nerfed, but if so, I haven't noticed.

This is a discussion that I seem to bring up every patch. I've seen this happening since release (when molten core went live). When instances are initially implemented, they spend very little time tuning difficulty of an encounter. QA runs through it with more of an "Can it be beaten?" attitude. This is not because QA is lazy, the issue stems from a question of resources vs. potential scenarios. You simply cannot account for all, or even many of the situations that the hundreds of leading edge guilds are going to be in when they encounter the event (this was x2 when there were still faction specific classes).

So, the test server ends up being the initial balance phase. This is where the tuning team can get some "Actual" input from "Actual" player guilds as they watch, or even participate in the encounters with them. This is where it gets tuned for release. Since the devs still want to make the encounter challenging, some small nerfs may be made to allow a wider range of raid make-ups to defeat it.

Then, at release, the leading edge guilds for the most part have been accounted for. Most of them beat the encounter in short order, or fall apart trying. Everyone gawks at the uber loots.

Finally, the post-patch. After the leading edge guilds have had their plunder and status requirements fulfilled, the encounters seem to undergo another round of retuning (NERFS). This is due to the fact that for every leading edge guild that completed the encounter, there were probably 10 lesser guilds banging their heads, praying to dieties and/or sacrificing poultry in an attempt to beat the encounter that was tuned for a better skilled group of people. In effect, it's like letting the Joes into the VIP lounge after the VIP's have left.

It's a sound strategy, even if it is kind of lame. The only people who get the bad taste in their mouths from it are the people intelligent enough to see it taking place over and over again. It's catering to the masses to keep the whiners happy.

I noticed no significant change with Aran, if anything, he seemed harder due to the blizzard traversing more than 360 degrees.

Karazhan is still hard despite the fact that my team clears the instance in an evening. It's simply not fair to try and measure the difficultly of the zone after you've farmed it for weeks on end.
You say Prince is still hard due to the randomness of the infernals but I can just as easily say he's the easiest fight in the zone because we're capable of killing him so fast the density of infernals is negligible.

As your raid gears up, the difficultly of any given fight drops by leaps and bounds. Better geared tanks equal fewer healers, better geared healers equals fewer healers still, you can then fill those spots with more damage classes who continue to due more and more damage as they gear up which in turn makes the fight shorter which lessens the demand on the healers and round and round we go. The Gruul fight only serves exacerbate this 'trend' due to his 'Grow' mechanic.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Kara seems easier for the most part, but it still takes a full night or two to clear it. The Prince and Netherspite doors were both good additions imo. Gruul's Lair seems easier and so does the Magtheridon, but it's not game breaking. I feel the encounters were retuned fairly well and it was a good patch overall. It looks like they're preparring for another round of nerfs on the test realm. Not sure if they messed with Doom Lord Kazzak or Doomwalker but we one shotted both this last go around. I don’t have much experience with either SSC or The Eye yet so can’t really comment on those.

Yeah, my guild (which is falling apart due to kara) Finally killed him a few nights ago. Last night we got him to 130k/870ish k hp 6 times in a row. Each encounted was ended when he pyroblasted the raid, effectively trouncing any dps and heals. Our last attempt we got him to 90k hp...Part of our problem is the leaders refusing to bring the right people to the fight to avoid hurt feelings.

Hehe I've no enmity towards hard core raiders, but I do think their view on things tends to be a bit narrow, only seeing things from their guild's perspective. Lesser active guilds still get their asses kicked in Kara hehe. Kara remains a huge huge stumbling block for the less active guilds but it *does* seem easier in various spots.

Have you tried planning the Pyro in advance? Like stopping DPS to force him to drink? It can help if you don't have the DPS to take him down before he drinks, or you don't have the warlocks to cover the Elementals.

Aran's blizzard has always covered more than a 360 deg radius. It just moves faster now but with a shorter duration. Since it is shorter, there is less chance of a blizzard and flame wreath being up at the same time.

Also, Aran no longer uses a dragon's breath spell. Not a big deal, but one less thing to worry about right before he does an arcane blast.

Prince is tons easier than Aran for the average group makeup.

3 healers, 1 tank, rest DPS.

Staying by the door will get you out of range of every infernal drop, and if you max range tank him along the right wall, you miss every AE he does.

Have whoever gets axe agro call it in vent or whatever. Heal, tank, win.

Aran is more difficult because of the pure amount of shit that has to be coordinated at once. If you have someone in there that lacks situational awareness, then you are likely fucked. Same with Netherspite. These are twich gimmick fights.

Honestly, unless you catch an unlucky blizzard, there is no excuse to die on Aran. With the avalability of BigWigs and such mobs, it makes it even easier. Or, just knowing his sound emotes and whats coming is more than enough to prepare and adapt.

Shareef summed it up exactly, and it's not too bad, but I dunno. Perhaps I just wish some stuff would remain a bit harder a bit longer. I'm also forgetting the obvious fact that it always becomes easier as you do it more often and as everyone gears up...which probably plays no small role.

Prince strat: that's what we do. Unfortunately we often have to door him mid fight because of inferal placement too near the tanks. We downed him last night, but one wipe was just due to shit luck infernal placement. IMHO anyway, there were some other mistakes as well.

And on Gruul this week the attempt we did take him down (he was not a one shot), and I noob died to a cave in because I was tunnel visioned on spamming mindflay and slamming DoTs...I didn't notice it. Only time I died during the fight, usually I don't (esp. since I got KTM <3). Anyway I felt rather nooberific.

As far as Kara fucking up guilds...yeah. It's a shame that with 10 man specific make up, it's not possible to really have it raid-style, and *everyone* wants to go each week because of loot upgrades (and the fun of it). The guild I go with basically made their Karas a non-guild thing, so that it's run by people in guild who are raid leader types, but they each 'run' their own Kara as they wish. It's NBG loot rolling, no DKP, and I'm now a regular on their run (started as a sub for 2 runs then came in as a regular which means I'm invited each week now). And if ppl can't come the first night (always a 2 nighter, rather than pushing for it to be all in one 'cause of work schedules) whoever subs gets automatic preference for night 2. Which is all in all pretty decent. But I know from people I know in guild there's been some friction (and it's a very nice guild) because not everyone can get into the raid they want, and some haven't been able to raid much at all because their schedule is such they can only go with 1 that has no room for them, etc.

Anyway as far as that goes, I wouldn't ever be adverse to more flexability for Kara, or considerations made towards making it more 'guild friendly'. I'd much rather see people be able to swap out more than to have to cookie cutter it, though there is *some* flexability. We did this week's run with only 2 priests, one holy, one shadow (me), but we were heavier on dps. The holy priest is pretty top notch tho, which helps.

My kara run also has a paladin tank, who is a really good tank. It amuses me because I hear all the time "paladins can't tank", which I tease him about heh.

Anyway I'm not raiding in a style that's getting me to new stuff first or anything, I'm playing rather casually so it's not a desire to see content reserved only for those who can field that to attain it or anything. It's just that it feels like stuff slowly gets dumbed down to the point of boring is all. Though I'm not saying Kara's at that point yet or anything.

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Eh, I never considered Karazhan to be anything more than UBRS 2.0. Even Gruul/Magtheridon are fledgling raids. SSC/TK is akin to MC/BWL, then Hyjal/BT are AQ/Naxx level. Once people start pugging those then I think it's over. But Karazhan is just a small step, and Mag seems to be the casual cockblock. It's perfect, imo. They did make Mag a crapload easier since 2.1 though. His infernals hit like babies now.

I think netherspite is one of the easiest fights in the zone as long as your people aren't retarded. Aran is very different though because of all the abilities he can have up at once.

I looked up Nihilum/DnT's rogues, they started raiding in their T3 epics, almost zero time spent gearing up in dungeons. So I don't think they go in all decked out.

Dunno about requirement. I see quite a few now that I look that have no mainhands equipped or missing some gear, but also have their T5 trinkets and random stuff equipped. So if it's a requirement, seems to be selective. Maybe T6 only or something. Nothing was hidden when I looked at their profiles when they were just starting in on SSC.

I make sure my riding crop is equipped alongside my Carrot on a stick, my gloves with a riding skill enchant, and my boots with mithril spurs, when I log out. Just so people know I know what's going on in this game...

Yes they're the ones that log out in shit gear so no one can look them up.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

As I mentioned in the Illidan thread, they are "supposed" to be removing their raiding gear before logging...for whatever retarded rick shaw reasons. I'm sure from time to time the armory update won't happen at night but in the middle of the day so a few items might slip through, because I've noticed that somethings a few items from SSC or TK on a member or two.

After talking with some of the guys in Death and Taxes, I guess one of the main reasons some guilds do that is really to prevent people from spamming their members for spec/gear/play advice. The guys in D&T are a tad more tolerant of that sort of thing, as a good percentage of people hanging out in their IRC Channel aren't even on their server (**cough** like Hara and myself **cough**). That channel isn't for the weak of heart though, 4Chan is a staple there...and it gets freaky sometimes.

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Haha, that channel is hilarious.

Much akin to links from Mascen and Nalg back in the day.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat