If you ever read Tigole's old posts from his EQ days (think Solanthious rants, but on steriods) he was the anti-yes man. If he'd do an encounter that wasn't quite finished, he'd rant about it. If the mobs weren't itemized at all, or were itemized with shitty loot, he'd rant about it. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and he's one of the ones in charge, he has turned into what he hated from the beginning. He gives shitty explanations, he releases raid content that isn't finished (or bugged), and the itemization sucks (Romeo's Poison Vial? Please). He should be ashamed, but his paycheck is preventing that shame.

Imagine Givin working for Sony and trying to defend the shitty release that Vanguard had. That is what Tigole reminds me of now.

I concur.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Comparing the content that Blizzard releases to what Verant/Sony released back in the day is flat out laughable. Please do me the favor of listing raid content that has been released that was either unfinished or bugged to the point of being unplayable. As well, condemning him and the game for a handful of items (out of thousands mind you) that went live that were obviously unfinished is equally laughable.

At the end of the day, my opinion means squat as I'm just the naive fanboi who thinks Blizzard can do no wrong but what really piques my curiousity is in a vast sea of competition, why play a game that is obviously not up to your standards?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Molten Core, wonder why only Domo and Rag are scripted? Probably not. The entire zone was held together with so many band-aids they should buy stock in Johnson and Johnson. How many versions of Ragnaros were there?

Blackwing Lair. Remember a certain gate not opening because it was "bugged". Yeah, bugged like The Rathe Council. Gonna chalk that one up to tuning content? How much work does it take to tune a door to open properly when a mob dies, even taking into consideration it is triggered by a script. There is a certain guild that can also tell you tales on how they cleared Blackwing Lair backwards. They aren't hard to find if you'd like to hear the story.

AQ 40, most notably, C'thun. I don't even have to mention why here.

Tier 2 went through how many itemizations?

Do we really really have to go here? Seriously. And with as much sarcasm as your last sentence dripped with, it was pretty dead bang on.

EDIT

I'm not even going to begin listing the TBC raid horseshit that is still currently in game. And the list doesn't begin at Kara either.

Noobed by Givin

Because it's the game that sucks the less right now.

Molten Core

Tier 2 was dropping here when it went live
Rag has gone through at least 4 major nerfs that I'm aware of
When Geddon's bomb blew you up you could get stuck on the wall

Blackwing Lair

Razoregor and Vael were killable with about 20 for 3 days when the zone went live, allowing for some mass bracer / belt farmage

The gate to Nef was bugged for about 2 to 3 weeks allowing only DnT to get past it.

I could go on but every bit of raid content released to this day has been fucked up in some way shape or form, so don't sit here and spew out shit you know nothing about.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Lets just start with TBC then...
A) rear 180 degree attacks
C) 360 degree chain cleave
B) sweeping strikes
C) Gruul's old shatter
D) The complete and utter shit for itemization that we have now.

:edit:
Also to add in, that the tier 2 that droped in MC was worse then the blues that droped in DM at the time.

Your ignorance is perfect evidence that you either don't care that you pay $15.00 a month for a game that is has a metric fuckton of issues or that you prefer to play it because its so fucking easy a wolverine whose high on angel dust could play it.

Why play a game that isn't up to our standards you ask? Because there isn't a game out there right now worth my subscription money. Right now I play this game to play with my bros, and my bros and I will leave this steaming pile of monkey spunk for the next game that can one up this inbred cockfag. Blizzard is less then a year away from seeing real competition in the market, because they WONT be the only game in town worth playing. Warhammer, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate London, Huxley, Age of Conan, DC Universe Online...want me to keep going?

I'm sorry Kuwen, but defending Blizzard makes you look like a retard and it makes whatever point your trying to convey as meaningless.

As for Tigole selling out...I agree with the statement that he's on the other side of the fence now. I'm sure from time to time he doesn't like what he has to do or say in defense of Blizzard's development decisions...but at the end of the day they are the ones signing the checks. If he has the balls he used to have, he would've left nearly 2 years ago when the BWL team left for NCSoft...

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Let's be frank, none of those games will be better than WoW, unfortunately.

Be sure not to confuse unbalanced with bugged or unfinished, which in some cases you are.

Of all the instances and encounters mentioned, the only one that saw any amount of press was C'Thun, what do you suppose that says?

The point of all this is that you're comparing the minor hiccups that the WoW endgame has experienced with the flesh eating disease that was every single Everquest expansion.

If you can honestly say with a straight face that end-game content that has been released in WoW has been of no higher quality than that of what we saw in EQ than I concede.

I'll be the first person to (genuinely) admit that I'm bias to Blizzard and the games they make but a virtually flawless track record since Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans has earned every bit of it.

Lastly, contrary to popular belief, I very much think that Blizzard makes mistakes (going from 40 man content to ~only 10 man content with the release of the expansion being number one on that list) but unlike others, I'm rational enough to realize that a game of this magnitude (absolutely dwarfs anything that has come before it) is going to have issues and that Blizzard's past history has shown that they're smart enough to fix most all of them.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Sorry Solanthious, but the whole 'it's the game that sucks the least' flew during the EQ days, but not now.

And like Given, you're confusing broken and bugged with unbalanced in a lot of cases. It's one thing for something to be too hard or too easy, a whole other thing for something to be flat out unplayable or not even exist.

Please to continue to enlighten ingnorant ole me, was Naxx not doable from start to finish? How about Karazhan? Gruul and Magtheridon, yep killable. Serpentshrine Cavern, check. It blows my mind how quickly you've all forgotten how butchered the end-game of EQ was and how you think the utopia we have in comparison, is awful. Take a minute and go back to the Legacy of Steel and Fires of Heaven archives and re-read what Tigole and Furor posted and maybe you'll see how ridiculous these comparisons are.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

....There's nothing unbalanced about a gate that "might" open if you kill the mob it corresponds with.

There's nothing unbalanced about allowing Razorgor to be DI'd for almost a year and a half.

It's called "broken"

As far as you're "flew during the eq days" every game on the MMO market sucks right now. Every single one of them, maybe not for the same reasons but they suck. Period.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Compared to what?

Even though I've asked this question twice now with no response I'll try again, what makes the game so easy? Such a stament begs the question as to why you're not banging down the door of Kael'thas if the game is so easy.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

First off, you havn't asked this question once. Secondly, there is no risk. The entire risk/reward balance is thrown out the window. All this game takes is time and bodies. It is like every raid is a RoTA zerg, when in doubt, bring more warm bodies. And yes, even in a 40 man raid, you can still zerg things down.

You want to know what makes this game so easy? The pure and simple fact that any slackjawed retard with a 486 can go to Wal-Mart, buy the game, install it, create a character, and be level 20 in less then a day.

Example: My former boss was on a medical leave after having surgery. As something to do, he went and bought WoW. His man had NEVER PLAYED ANY ONLINE GAME other then poker before. He literally made level 20 in less then 6 hours on his first character. No help, no guild, no money...he started as a 100% newb.

This game, from level 1 to 70, was designed for Captain Casual. It was designed so the lowest common denominator could install and play the game. Life after you ding 70 however is only slightly different. Remember back in EQ when you wanted to go to NTOV but you found out 10 minutes before the start of raids that another guild just cleared it? That doesn't happen in WoW. In WoW, all you need is bodies. You take said bodies, go to a raid zone, and throw yourself at a mob (using someone elses strategy for killing said mob) until the mob is dead. Collect loot, rinse repeat.

As for why we aren't banging down Kael's door...we specifically choose not to. Why? Because there is no reason to be bleeding edge in this game. Which as been said before, numerous times. Why beat your head against a mob when the mob will be toned down in a few weeks? Why go through 2 hours of farming for 1 hour of raiding when it won't be necessary to do that in a few weeks? This is a decision that was made by us as a guild long ago, when we first started playing WoW. All it takes is bodies and man hours for farming to be number 1 here. And, there is no risk vs reward in a game where things get changed more then a Thai Hooker needs to change her underwear.

Oh, and backpedding on a question that WAS already answered more then once just to keep posting makes you look..again..retarded.

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Why now are people complaining about that? WoW was always designed so that anyone could level to max rapdily. The game wasn't supposed to begin until max level if I remember right. They also bragged that so much of their content was instanced.

Is it that it suddenly got worse (I stopped playing well before the expansion, so I don't know) or that people expected the game to evolve into something more difficult?

Basically, with a good number of changes to the end game that are being implemented with the coming patch, what little difficulty this game had is being dropped severely.

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I was unaware that WoW ever had good itemization.

I kind of like World of Warcraft. I can't imagine playing a game you don't like.

That's the entire problem, we "kind" of like World of Warcraft.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Check the other thread.

Stating that an encounter in WoW can be 'zerged' down shows that you simply have no concept of what the term 'zerging' means. There can really be no other explanation given that encounters are designed and balanced around 10 or 25 man raid groups...and you can't take more than that number.

Lastly, please at least make an attempt to read up on things you're clearly not up to speed on before commenting. Had you of done that you might have realized that one of the biggest complaints about the current state of the end game is that the risk/reward is too high. The strength of items that people are seeing off bosses do not warrant the complexity and difficulty of the encounter which also in turn makes future encounters too difficult, which funny enough, is the opposite of easy.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Just an example of how fucking rediculous the end game itemization is:

Life Bearer's Gauntlets from heroic ramparts.

Compared to the plate gauntlets that drop from Vashj.

The idea that 5 man loot is that close in quality to the stats of an item that drops in a 25 man raid instance, is a joke.

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Machival - Night Watch - Moonrunner
Krobelus - Night Watch - Moonrunner

Agreed, their efforts to minimize mudflation went a little far; virtually everything in SSC is getting buffed come 2.1.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I think the good folks from Oryx did a fine job of explaining some of this, so I don't really have to. However, something like the bugged elevator in Mechanar comes to mind. This was bugged for how long? And it was fixed how many times? When Nihilum killed Al'ar, the corpse was bugged and they couldn't get loot. A worldwide first kill and they couldn't get loot.

I am not saying the faults and problems are the same as they are/were in Everquest, I am saying that they do exist, and with Tigole (and Furor?) behind the wheel, it shouldn't ever exist and when shit is bugged, they should be the first to make a blue post saying "we fucked up, here's how we are going to fix it".


Typical comeback. I think the game does meet my standards, however, that isn't to say I shouldn't expect the best. Or that I shouldn't want the best. I usually defend the moves that Blizzard makes becasue I can understand alot of them, but I am not going to be a fanboi and pretend Tigole is doing a perfect job.

The itemization is terrible. I will use Rogue examples since I play a Rogue. Assassination gear is pretty badass. However, that stuff can be gotten by terrible 5-man groups. I got my Shoulders by doing stealth runs to Ikiss. 2 Rogues & 2 Druids is all it took to get some of the best leather shoulders in the game. Should they nerf the stealth runs? I say no. They should, however, buff the shoulders available beyond Sethekk Halls. The Assassination gloves are slighty harder to get, but when you compare them to tier 4, they are marginally better.

A few weeks ago, I was at around 8000 hp and 1850 attack. After a few "upgrades" I realized that my attack was down back around 1750. My +hit and +crit were almost the same. I gained around 300 hitpoints but lost almost 1000 attack. How is this improving myself by getting gear by "progression"? I won't even talk about the tailored items available to casters which are better than Tier5, because that is another debate entirely.

To continue, Tigole should have seen the disaster he was creating with the 10 man raids and the lockout timers of those raids. How many guilds have collapsed/split up because of these 10 man raids and the lockout timers in place? What were they thinking by making fights like the Curator, where you almost HAVE TO substitute a tank out for DPS, followed immediately by 2 guards where you again need 2 tanks? How about having the Shade of Aran fight, which all but begs for 2 Rogues, then doing the Prince, where more than one Rogue is almost a liability?

I say all this and I love the zone. I think it's clever, the fights are neat, and it's really how a zone should be done, in my opinion. However, that doesn't mean I can't complain about the mechanics. That doesn't mean I can't complain that the Prince bugs out far too often... still. That doesn't mean I can't complain about the trash respawning too quickly. That doesn't mean I can't complain about the reputation rings sucking. And that certainly doesn't mean I can't complain about the poor itemization.

Look at my profile and tell me that there are items that are "so much better" than the stuff I have now (just don't make fun of my Hand of Justice, damnit). Even my Helm of the Claw, which I think is better than anything available before Tier4 (including the Second Sight helm that lots of Rogues wear), isn't that different than Tier4. And I got it from killing the final boss in Steamvaults...

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... her&n=Peno

Zerging stems from zergling rush, which was a fast way to beat nubs, and had nothing to do with numbers, but speed of building.

So neither of you have any idea what the term means!

Now, I have seen it used in numerous ways. One obviously being to overwhelm a target. The second being able to easily beat something with little to no strategy. Such as:

"fuck the gy everyone zerg vanndar for win, no marshals left!"

Nice 5v5 score.

I joined the team(s) but haven't PVPd with them yet.

And for the record, this is some of the stuff I was referring to when I said I got "upgrades":

Netherblade Gloves
Binds when picked up
Hands Leather
208 Armor
+30 Stamina
Durability 40 / 40
Classes: Rogue
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14 (0.9%@70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21 (1.0%@70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 64.

Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless
Binds when picked up
Shoulder Leather
239 Armor
+27 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Hit Rating
Durability 70 / 70
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10 (0.6%@70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 18 (0.8%@70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 54.

Violet Signet of the Master Assassin
Binds when picked up
Unique
Finger
+24 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 22 (1.4%@70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.

Some fair points, much of what you say I know to be true and have experienced it first hand but I'm still in disagreement that it's Tigole's fault and is happening because he 'sold out', he's only one guy with ~40 hours in a given week to spare; Blizzard should simply have more like him.

And for what it's worth, you can 'unbug' Prince by dragging a trash mob up to him and fighting/AE'ing it next to him.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Wrong. 'Zerging' has to do with the role of the unit itself, overwhelm the opponent with sheer numbers. Rushing was possible with any Tier 1 unit and something altogether different.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I am aware of this, but when you clear to the Prince, there aren't exactly alot of mobs left to do this, and it wastes time. You can also enslave a demon and bring it up there. The thing is, everyone knows it's a bug, but why can't it be fixed in a timely fashion? I don't think Tigole is to blame, entirely, but I still think that after all the shit he spewed for years on the Legacy of Steel (or whatever his guild was, it's been a while) website, he'd put his foot down for some of the crap that we've seen. You know... with him being lead designer and all...

ps: I miss Captain Placeholder.

I have mixed feelings about Wow, but can agree that it is the best thing currently out there. I can only assume that since no one else has yet produced a better product that it's just damn hard to get everything right, even things that seem simple. I don't understand why some of these bugs arn't fixed (hell, vanish still bugs sometimes, and arcane missles are JUST getting fixed now and they were issues from day 1).

I do understand why they don't just come out and say we fucked up and here is how we're going to fix it though. Everyone says that's all they want to hear, some fault acknowledgement and a plan of action. It isn't true though, as soon as you do that, it's a chink in the armor and everyone swarms to the weakness. Imus would still have a job if he said FU everyone, it was just a joke and I'll say whatever I want to say. I don't think that's the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

Itemization is indeed utter shit. Items from different places with literally identical stats etc. The upgrades as you go along are like the difference of 1 and 2 crit points..etc. Statless items abound.

Not sure what the hell they were thinking.

The meaning of Zerging changed as time went on and people misunderstood the origins of the term, IMO. Right now it means "overwhelm with numbers" and when used in derogatory it means "using too many to beat an encounter". The zergling rush was effective because in the day(I think there was a patch to make it a little bit less effective via costs) you could send a few zerglings in the beginning and kill off peons before they had enough time to even build their first troop, throwing the typical newbie opponent completely offguard if he wasn't prepared for it. The "zergling rush" had nothing really to do with numbers but rather sending the quickest offense possible and keeping that offense sustained with a steady supply of zerglings.

I call upon the powers of Wikipedia. :O

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_(comp ... ideo_games)

You still dont get it. There IS no risk vs reward equation in this game. Also, there is no risk in this game. What do you lose, a few hours of farming on a wipe? You would be farming anyways. The farming required for a raid when you 1 shot everything is still insane. When you are learning the encounters, you dont juke to full every time. You use a minimal amount of consumables so you can learn the encounter and then after you have the encounter down, you juke to the max to kill the mob in the last amount of time so that errors are minimized. The difference in farming between a day of successful raids and a day of unsuccessful raids are minimal.

In regards to zerging, I believe that "throwing bodies at it until it dies" counts as zerging. The fights are so random that all its takes is damn luck and a minimum amount of competence to succeed. Some of us would prefer a higher bar.

lol ok

Dunno, i kinda liked when we did farmwing lair and made 30ish gold on a clear. Was the raid i always looked forward to ).

<3 the rich kids after the Opera.

Seriously, is this the best argument you have for why WoW is too easy a game?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

i don't play wowarcraft, but if high end encounters in the game involves 2 hours of farming stuff, and then having everyone use the auto attack/auto spell hotkey while using whatever was farmed at the mob to win... sounds pretty damn easy to me

-cc

Maybe you should stay at a holiday inn or something CC. That post was pretty full of dumb.

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Then don't ever post in this forum again, because as usual, your blowhard opinion on whatever topic at hand means jack shit nothing to any of us.

I hate how Cicely insists on calling it "wowarcraft"

Like, absolutely nobody says that because it's so utterly ridiculous.

Perhaps I would like to do something more then bind SS to every key on my keyboard and roll my face on it.

I can top that...maybe you can think of something better for me to do in raids then mashing Flash of Light for an entire fight Kuwen.

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It inst that WoW is too easy, its not difficult, we are talking about the Diet Coke of MMO's.

I need judgement of light on the mob please.

Yea pretty much.

PVP still has some challenging moments at least(particularly in the team versus team situations).

Let me count the bosses that I can simply stand in place and spam one ability.

Attumen - Check
Moroes - No
Maiden - No
Opera - No
Curator - No
Illhoof - No
Aran - Definitely no
Netherspite - Definitely no
Prince - Definitely no
Nightbane - Definitely no

Maulgar - Definitely no
Gruul - Definitely no

Magtheridon - Definitely no

So if in fact you guys are simply standing around and mashing one key than my hat's off to you and your guild for progressing with people who use such a rudimentary playstyle.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I think alot of people look back on EQ with highly rose-colored glasses. We did everything up through early GoD bosses and I can't really think of too many boss fights that were so vastly better and more creative than what you see in WoW, if anything, alot of them had much more of the "Stand there with autoattack on" element than in WoW. And as its been said, they did the same kind of stuff with itemization, cock-block mobs to make up for incomplete content, etc etc. I guess the ease of leveling leading to more fucktards at max level (unquestionably true) is a drawback, but what are the other big advantages do you guys see EQ having had over it?

If wow is the "diet coke" or MMO's, or not up to the full standard of MMOs, just curious what you guys would rank above it?

Almost all of the difficulty in EQ can be summed up by it had no instances. Everything is harder when you're pressed for time and racing another guild. Besides that it was mostly keeping aggro on tank and CH rotations. A few minor twists, but nothing more complicated than any wow boss.

The only time wow dissapoints me isn't because it isn't better than EQ, but because it isn't as good as it could be. It's like when you think a movie is going to suck and it turns out to be decent (EQ) compared to when you think something is going to be the best movie ever and just turns out to be good (wow). I didn't even know what a MMO was when EQ came out, so I had very low expectations.

Ok...Elemental Shaman...lets see this from my point of view (as a holy paladin) shall we?

Attumen - Spam Flash of Light
Moroes - Soam Flash of Light, BOP someone with Garrote, Divine Shield self if I get garrote...maybe help fear an undead if necessary.
Maiden - Spam Flash of Light, keep Blessing of Sacrifice on MT, cleanse Holy Fire.
Opera - Spam Flash of Light
Curator - Spam Flash of Light
Illhoof - Spam Flash of Light
Aran - Spam Flash of Light (and avoid blizzard/arcane explosions)
Netherspite - Spam Flash of Light
Prince - Spam Flash of Light, cleanse SW:P
Nightbane - Spam Flash of Light and possibly BOP someone

Maulgar - Spam Flash of Light
Gruul - Spam Flash of Light

Magtheridon - Spam Flash of Light

Saying "I spam Flash of Light and thats all I do" may not exactly be ALL that I do, but if I really have to say "I need to reposition myself on occasion during a fight when needed" then you're stupider then you look.

You're not getting anywhere with this "I don't know what you guys are doing, but I don't do that" argument and you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper into hole. No one seems to see your point of view...but by all means, continue to throw Blizzard your money after more games come out. Someone who will blindly defend them is their perfect customer.

Oh, wanna hear something REALLY FUNNY?

Black Temple is so damned easy on PTR, Tigole actually had to ask Death and Taxes in /yell to clear more trash...want proof?

http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ptrhn5.jpg

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Wow has way better encounters than EQ EVER did.

I mean even the 5-man stuff like Shattered Halls where where in the hallway the guys are shooting arrows of fire at you, and you get assaulted in waves, or the boss that randomly drops aggro and is fighting with his other head... etc.

Just because you play a one-dimensional class/build doesn't mean the game is simple and/or terrible like you seem to pretend.

Also, I didn't find the picture you posted REALLY FUNNY, only mildly amusing. Trash clearing is a pretty big issue right now so I am sure they are trying to find a happy balance in the Black Temple. If nothing else, I give Tigole props for being there watching while D&T clears the place.

This is brutal and in classic Lanys form, choosing to blatently ignore all the complexities of the fights I mentioned does not make your argument correct, sorry.

"Yeah, I may have to reposition myself a little once in a while, maybe use a few other abilities, maybe heal someone other than the MT, but 99% of my attention is focused on mashing one key, honest."

Give me a break.

And anytime you're ready to provide an actual example of what is harder than WoW, please feel free.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

can someone post that picture on http://www.imgshost.com ?

My class/build aside, my comments about the games lack of difficulty are not limited to the high end of the game. I think the game as a whole lacks any difficulty.

As to why I find that funny...

I find it funny because the trash there is so easy, D&T have been clearing enough trash to get to the bosses and thats all. I asked one of the guys in the D&T IRC channel about what was going on, and he basically said that the /yell conversation with Tigole had been going on for a few minutes before that picture was taken. Apparently, the trash in there is easier then SCC trash so for the most part they've been avoiding a good portion of it.

And I actually applaud Tigole for hanging out in a zone and actually...TALKING to players about a zone. Heaven fucking forbid he gets to witness first hand what a raiding guild does this day and age in a zone. I only hope he actually takes some of the constructive feedback he was given that night and puts it to good use.

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Sure the game is easy if you are talking about leveling up from 1-70. I think the game is difficult when you start talking about raiding though, else wouldn't we all be through SSC now and beyond?