God I hope Age of Conan delivers.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

How is this in any way, shape or form, a bad change?

The bulk of the bleeding edge guilds have been crying for this for some time.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

It's not a bad change.

Mmmm, reminds me of my original EQ sig.

Which in turn reminds me of CONAN and even further, the book from whence it came

Derailing incoming!

Which of the Conan the Cimmerian books is better?

Heh.

I wanted to see if anyone caught why this is a bad thing, guess not.

First off, it IS a bad change, for several reasons.

The biggest reason is that it's a bandaid. It didn't address a damn thing that has to do with the problem. Let's look at this logically.

Most melee and casters "juke" up to the point where they are running 9+ consumables. Great, no more consumable stacking AWESOME I don't have to farm as much anymore.

Wrong.

You now have the choice of running with 1 Offensive Elixir and 1 Defensive Elixir, or 1 Flask. The reason it's a piss poor change is because you're still going to be farming endless amounts of materials to feed the raids Flask / or Elixir usage because the number 1 thing we all wanted with Alchemy changes didnt happen.

Elixirs do not last through death. If you think the time you spent farming is going to be reduced think again, unless they make that single change.

The 2nd reason the Offensive / Defensive Elixir / Flask change is bad is the eventually nerfing that's going to be the result of this. Every raid encounter since Nefarian has been balanced around the use of Flask and Elixir stacking.

Lets look at the numbers. Melee DPS stacking you're looking at roughly 700 AP with 3 Elixirs and Flask, before Battle Shout and other buffs. Cutting this stacking down to 1 Offensive Elixir or 1 Flask does 2 things. A to get the most out of your buffs, you need to go with the Flask, which entails more farming materials, the exact opposite of what we wanted.

The second thing it does is it brings about a huge nerf to every encounter to rebalance the game. If you add the fact that the glancing blow factor is going to be reduced, and from what I hear it's drastically, and the +to hit mobs 3 levels higher for casters is also going to be re evaluated, we're looking at a huge shift in game difficulty.

It's not a good thing, it's a business tactic to keep 90% of the playerbase while the other 10% waits for a harder game, instead of 10% of the player base loving WoW and 90% of the playerbase disgruntled because the game is too hard.

Edit: I forgot to add this. All 3 CM's have posted numerous times the same thing "We know what this change will do to raid mechanics and we will tune every encounter accordingly"
So don't think it's not coming.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Up to now, encounters (post MC) have been balanced (roughly) around every class being maxed out with consumables. This created a huge strain on players who wanted to stay at the leading edge of things due to the time requirements to farm said consumables. This change limits the amount of consumables a player can use significantly (adept's elxir + greater arcane elixir + major mageblood + major firepower + supreme power ---> adept's elixir OR supreme power).

At the end of the day they adjust the encounters appropriately (nerf is hardly the proper word) and the average raider spends ~half as much time farming for consumables. Again, I don't see the negative aspect of this change.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I should also add that the biggest reason this (alchemy) was seen as such a broken mechanic was due to the fact that 'potting' up represented a far bigger increase in player power than multiple tiers of gear and thus minimized the fruits of a guilds success. This change serves to cut that power gain in about half and back down to reasonable levels.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Dude, if you don't think the retuning of encounters due to the dramatic changes with Elixirs and Flasks, on top of the reduction of Glancing Blows and + to hit for casters isn't a nerf, then idk what else to say other then I want a hard game, and this game is not hard.

Oh and btw, every high end guild is bitching about this "They missed the point completely" is pretty much the general concensus.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Except this doesn't fix the core of the problem. The change needed to be that elixirs last though death, NOT limiting the number of elixirs that a char can use at one time. Blizzard just sidestepped the issue with this half-baked non-solution.

Sadly elixirs weren't the major alchemy problem of WoW, casters chain chugging mana pots are.

Retuning is the proper word, nerf implies things getting easier. When done properly the difficultly of a given encounter wont change; sure it may not hit as hard or have as many hitpoints but so long as the 'power' of the mob remains in line with the 'power' of the raid, what difference does it make?

The balance of things in the short term may not be as seamless as we'd all like but the changes are working towards the long term interest of the game and that's really what's most important.

With that said, what facets of the game do you find overly easy relative to other games out there and is your guilds progress stalled only by the number of hours in a given day?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Which encounters are you currently working on that force you to chain chug super mana pots every cooldown?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Part of the problem is that it doesn't save any time on material farming for consumables. So instead of farming the mats for Adepts Elixir (1 Dreamfoil & 1 Felweed), Elixir of Healing Power (1 Golden Sansam & 1 Dreaming Glory), Elixir of Mastery (3 Terocone & 1 Felweed) and Flask of Mighty Restoration (1 Fel Lotus, 10 Mana Thistle, 20 Dreaming Glory)...now you're forced to either farm for the elixirs (which do not last though death) or farm for the Flasks (which do last though death). You get more bang for you buck with Flasks...but now you're competing with every other raiding guild on your server for farming for flask materials. Can we say Herb bots sitting on Mana Thistle spawns?

If they were to implement these changes AND make Elixirs last through death, there wouldn't be a huge issue.

And the main reason I see all this as a dumbing down is because of all the "other" changes being made at the same time. The removal of sweeping strikes from Outland mobs, the changes to glancing blows, the changes to spell +hit, the changes to the trash mobs in 25-mans...it's just too much too soon and I see it all as a huge mistake. My money says with these changes Mount Hyjal will be cleared in less then a month after they go in.

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Well, considering that I have an energy bar and not a mana bar, none. But some of our casters do chug mana pots and/or dreamless sleep quite often.

Out of curiosity is this you?

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#char ... r&n=Argrax

This is quite funny.

Lol

Bots don't do so well on PvP servers.

Can't see it from work, but yeah that should be me.

So since you have an energy bar and not a mana bar, which encounters do your casters chain chug super mana pots on? And be sure to recognize that there's a stark difference in being forced to use super mana pots which can get pricey in a hurry and being able to get away with combat mana potions, major combat mana potions or unstable mana potions.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

You're losing me here, you just said, 'So instead of having to farm x, y and z, you're now forced to farm x OR z' and claim that this is resulting in having to farm more materials. What am I missing?


They're changing sweeping strikes, glancing blows and possibly caster spell hit rates to reduce the rather large gap that currently exists between caster classes and melee classes. If this is dumbing down the game, do you consider all the class balance changes that came before these as dumbing down the game also? As for your last point, if you're currently working on SSC and believe that increasing the spawn rates of trash is not a warranted change, that's fine as it's your opinion and not one I can argue with because I've not yet experienced the zone first hand.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Ok, I'll put it this way. Currently in my inventory, 20 Elixir of Healing Power (which are 1 Golden Sansam & 1 Dreaming Glory each), and 20 Adept's Elixirs (which are 1 Dreamfoil & 1 Felweed)...Now count the total number of herbs used:

Dreaming Glory: 20
Felweed: 20
Golden Sansam: 20
Dreamfoil: 20

Granted, I don't use ALL of the elixirs each night. More often then not I bring extras for other casters in the raid. I like to be prepared.

Now, if I also used say a Flask of Mighty Restoration (which increases Mana per 5 by 70 for 2 hours...something I don't need as a paladin, just using it as an example) I would need 1 Fel Lotus (which is not a farmable herb by itself, it can spawn with any herb in Outland...but has roughly a 1% drop rate) 10 Mana Thistle (which are only obtainable in areas only accessable by those with flying mounts, and are normally camped on our server on a regular basis) and 20 Dreaming Glory (this one is easy). Since the effect only lasts 2 hours (but lasts through death) I would probably want at least 2 Flasks per raid night just to be safe. So now our mats are doubled:

Fel Lotus: 2
Mana Thistle: 20
Dreaming Glory: 40

Tell me, how long do you think it takes (on average) to farm those materials? Thats 142 Herbs for 40 Elixirs and 2 Flasks. So now, instead of having to farm a total of 142 Herbs for ALL of the Elixirs/Flasks, you are farming for EITHER the elixirs OR the flasks. Then take into effect you aren't the only person doing this. This effects every raiding guild on your server. What will happen is an increased need for specific herbs, meaning that things like mana thistle will be camped 100% of the time, the price of Fel Lotus will go up due to its rarity, etc etc etc....

If you choose to farm for the elixirs, you are looking at farming 80 herbs for items that may not even stack together (depending on which category's Adepts Elixir and Elixir of Healing Power fall into, Offensive or Defensive) and that don't last through death. So if you wipe a total of 10 times throughout the course of a raid, you need to use 2 more elixirs per attempt. From a time spent perspective, this would seem the more logical choice. But that doesn't work for every class.

So if you choose to farm for the flasks (which makes more sense because Flasks last for 2 hours and carry over through death), instead of farming 142 herbs, 22 of which are not always easy to find (the Fel Lotus and mana thistle), you are left farming 62 Herbs total but are still stuck farming 22 herbs which are even harder to find now that every guild has an herbalist camping them more then before.

It's not a matter of farming MORE materials, its a matter of spending more time farming for them.



I think I may not have made myself clear in what I ment here. Sweeping Strikes and 360 degree Cleaves were some asshole developers fuck up. It was possibly one of the worst things added to the game and I rejoice the fact that they're being removed. The glancing blow changes and +spell hit changes are necessary because it will help bring the damage done by melee and casters more in line. And no, I don't consider class balance changes as "dumbing down"...I played a hunter for 2 years prior to rerolling a paladin, I know ALL about playing an overpowered class. And the trash mob change is needed as well. Most guilds say they get like maybe 2 attempts on a boss in SSC before they have to reclear the trash...that is total bullshit and a waste of time.

My overall meaning is that ALL of these changes going in at once is a problem. Blizzard flat out admitted that content was being designed AROUND the use of maximum consumables. So now they claim they're going to go back and "retune" the content to be in line with all of these changes. I just think it's too much too soon and it doesn't resolve the right issues high end guilds have with the raid content and I see a dumb down effect from all of it...I could be wrong, but come on...this is Blizzard we're talking about.

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He didn't say you had to farm more, he said you have to SPEND MORE TIME farming. And unless they convert every other herb node into the useful flask herbs, time spent farming flask mats will increase by A LOT. That's not too difficult to understand.


Stop playing the semantics game. These are huge nerfs to the current difficulty. What you seem to be missing is that this is not for the good of the game, this is for the good of the whiners. The millions of people who can't suck it up and beat shit the way that the hardcores beat it. I had predicted that these changes would be more gradual than they are, but in one fell swoop, they are going to "retune" as you say, every high end encounter and MAKE IT EASIER.

This is, as anyone with a brain could deduct, primarily a product of the community at large saying that the game is too hard. If you think they are going to keep things at their current difficulty, then you are smoking crack. Some changes are pure nerf, some are going to backfire because they are not well thought out, all of them are going to DUMB DOWN THE GAME.

And you are ignoring the fact that you still need to spend more time outside of raids farming then you actually spend raiding. You seem to hold that farming is a good thing for some reason...



And Blizzard can not balance nor itemize this game. They will ether keep it too hard or simplify it to the point where Hakkar was harder to beat. Remember, this is supposed to be the every-man expansion.

Hope you dudes are farming Mana Thistle right now. Good luck beating china to them if this goes through.

Oh, and people were fine with content ballanced assuming an entire raid was juked to the balls with flasks and elixars. Thats what they are there for. The problem was people wanted at least elixars to last through death. the 30 min/1 hour time was fine. Three attempts and you have to rejuke. You got more bang for your buck out of the time invested in farming this shit.

They completely missed the point.

Well call me stupid than because I'm not understanding. What you're suggesting is that when the patch goes live, people and guilds that never farmed flask materials before are all of the sudden going to have the time to start farming them now? The relative difficulty of encounters is not going to be changing and the guilds that used flasks before will continue to use them and the guilds that did not use flasks will continue to not use them. Therefore the rate at which fel lotus, mana thistle and terocone leave the game does not change.


Where or how am I playing the semantics game? You claim these are huge nerfs with no basis or proof and choose to completely ignore Blizzard's intentions to keep the game tuned such that the difficulty does not change. If these changes were not implemented than the melee classes would continue to be at a huge disadvantage relative to their ranged counterparts; this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whiners and their lack of desire to beat the game the way the 'hardcores' do.

Sadly your use of caps does not change the fact that you're making baseless statements and gross assumptions on Blizzard's behalf which leaves us with an argument consisting of 'they're dumbing down the game because they're dumbing down the game'.

As I've already said the changes may not be seamless in the short term but the long term intentions are where they need to be and I refuse to be the guy who complains about the crappy condition of the roads and then complains about the delays associated with road repair.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I get it. You live in a world where when Blizzard makes large changes to game mechanics everything goes peachy-fucking-keen and everyone is happy in the end. You can't call something baseless when historical trend predicts a major fuck-up.

You're not jaded enough to be a part of this conversation, sir. You don't happen to work for Blizzard, do you?

Basically instead of spending time farming consumables for 10 different types of pots, you are going to have to spend an equal amount of time farming mats for ONE type of pot.

Too bad its the optimum potion the other 20k plus people on the server will use now.

Please quote where I said that or even hinted at something similar. Sola posted that he thought this was a negative change, I disagreed and posted my reasons why it was a positive change; such a position in no way closes the door on the idea that it could be more positive.

I don't think these statements need any rebuttal...

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Dude, this is the Captain Casual answer and the complete and total opposite of what will happen.

They have already stated that their content has been based upon raids being completely flasked and potbuffed to the balls.

Removing the ability to stack them means the encounters must be completely retuned, outside of the supposed glancing/spell hit change.

Oh, and the content is still being retuned in a way that you will still have to fully buff with Flask OR Pot to complete it reliably.

You're wrong. This is the exact opposite of what will happen. ALL of these changes will more then likely change the difficulty of encounters, which means that guild currently using flasks will still use flasks while guilds that didn't use flasks WILL starting using them because the encounters will be based on them...need your proof?

And from the WoW forums.....


Karazhan does not make a raiding guild, Gruul's Lair does...

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It's sad that this horseshit came about because of two reasons.

One, people told them their discovery system was shit and offered feedback.

Two, people asked for their time farming for consumables to actually have payout, and asked for Elixirs to last through death.

And they jumped the gun completely.

This is the part where the kids on the official boards would say "QQ more". A few months from now, all of this will simply mean a new conversation

"remember when we used to raid with like 20 pots per boss? lolz"

You're still missing the point Kuwen. Sweeping strikes isn't getting "nerfed" or "retuned" it's been removed from every single encounter and mob in TBC.

That's not the answer, tone down the damage.

360 Degree cleave is not an issue, the damage dealt from it is, don't change it to 180, tone the damage down to a reasonable amount, and personally change it so it's a 90 to 180 directional from a different starting point each time to make it interesting, god knows though they could never get it right.

Don't reduce glancing blow % for melee, you think Fury warriors are insane now?



Edit: I am all for retuning, yet this is far far from it. With just what we know you're looking at 7 different melee changes all at once. Blizzard assumes this will fix things.

Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

I could go on and on here, but do you see my point now?

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

New from the WoW forums....

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 9591&sid=1

Alchemy


* The chance of a discovery occurring while making potions has been substantially increased.
* Elixirs now stack in two categories, Battle (Offensive) and Guardian (Defensive) Elixirs. You can only have one of each type of Elixir up at a time. As a result Elixirs now stack with class abilities such as "Arcane Intellect."
* Elixirs now stack to 20.
* Four new defensive elixirs have been added. Two are on trainers, one is in Halaa and one is in Cenarion Expedition.
* "Flask of Petrification" can no longer be turned off during its duration, but it now will clear all threat from all monsters for the duration of the effect. Though monsters may reacquire you after the effect ends.
* Cooldown time on "Earthstorm" and "Skyfire Diamond" transmutes has been reduced to 1 day.
* "Invulnerability" potions now stop the first 120 damage per hit for 8 seconds, rather than making the imbiber physically immune.
* The major protection potions made by Alchemy now require more "Mana Thistle" and vials, but create 5 potions instead of just one.
* "Fel Strength" elixirs now work correctly with elixir mastery.
* "Elemental Absorption" potions now have a 2 minute duration rather than the 60 min duration they used to have.
* Alchemy transmute of "Heart of Fire" to "Elemental Fire" changed to 15 minute cooldown.
* Reagent costs and potency of all flasks has been reduced.
* The cost of "Imbued Vials" has been reduced.
* The chance to find a "Fel Lotus" while picking an herb has been increased.
* "Juju Chill" and "Juju Ember" are now considered Guardian Elixirs and do not stack with other resistance buffs.
* "Juju Flurry" is now considered a Battle Elixir and has been converted from haste to haste rating.
* "Ground Scorpok Assay","Juju Might","Juju Power", "Lung Juice Cocktail", and R.O.I.D.S are now considered Battle Elixirs.
* "Crystal Force", "Crystal Ward","Gizzard Gum", "Infallible Mind","Juju Escape", "Juju Guile", "Sheen of Zanza" and Swiftness of Zanza are all now considered Guardian Elixirs.
* "Sheen of Zanza" is now considered a Guardian Elixir. Stamina and Spirit bonuses have been reduced to 25.
* "Elixir of Fortitude" now correctly displays its name in its buff tooltip.
* The "Alchemist's Stone" bonus now works on potions that restore both health and mana.

Additional Profession Changes


* Skinning higher level creatures will give more leather; you will no longer get a single leather scrap.
* Gathering skills no longer fail when you have reached the maximum skill possible.
* The "Stoneforged Claymore" model has been updated.
* "Fel Iron Bars" now have an icon unique from "Felsteel Bars".
* "Felsteel Bars" are now good quality (green items).
* The Tailoring recipe "Ebon Shadowbag" no longer drops on Spirit Walkers.
* Profession recipes that had 24 hour or longer cooldowns, have had their cooldowns reduced by 1 hour.
* Added Warped Flesh to high level warpstalkers.
* Alliance Cooks can now purchase the "Mok'Nathal Shortrib" and "Crunchy Serpent" recipes at Toshley's Station.
* Monsters will now attack players who are mining mineral nodes near to them, even if they didn't notice them previously.
* Golden Spellthread and Runic Spellthread have been slightly improved.
* Enchant Weapon- "Major Spellpower" enchant has been stolen from the Razaani spell thieves by the Bash'ir spell thieves. The Bash'ir are more likely to have the recipe than the Razaani previously did, however.
* "Imbued Netherweave Tunic" and robe recipes are vendor purchased so are now white instead of blue.
* "Nightmare Seed" found with herbalism now requires level 60 to use.
* The location of many of the Outland mineral nodes have been adjusted both to put them in locations that are more traveled and to make them more likely to be near creatures.
* Essences (Earth, Fire, Air, Water, Living) have had their drop rates significantly increased. Also Outland creatures that dropped motes will now have a chance of dropping essences as well.
* Materials required to make the Blacksmithing Adamantite plate armor have been reduced.
* The Epic bind on equip Blacksmith weapon recipes now require more materials to make.

Let me spell this out.......THIS IS A NERF

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God damn it's scary the clarvoiyance of Givin of The Internet.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Woweeeeeeeeeee. They love to focus on the stacking w/ class abilities now.

Oh, and PTR should be up tomorrow of Monday, so we'll see the rest of the nerfs posted.

I swear, I should start charging for my crystal ball.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Yeah but, off the top of my head, there is only 2 or 3 abilities like this.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Yeah, it's almost as if... they were using it to deflect attention from the dumbing down...

This argument does carry weight but I'm still not convinced that flask consumption will increase dramatically like so many are proposing.

Leading edge guilds (SSC+), who are the biggest flask consumers, are already using them at a near maximum rate so there's little room to move there. The only change for them is they have to farm less reagents for elixirs.

Second tier guilds (Gruul+) are typically a bit more patient and rely less on consumables and more on gear to get the job done but may sometimes resort to partial raid flasking to get the first kill when they know its close. I would concede that flask consumption at this level may increase somewhat but again, this type of player historically has never been gung-ho on fully potting and that's not likely to change a whole lot.

Third tier guilds (~first half of Karazhan) are comprised mostly of casuals and use little at all in the way of consumables; I'd expect little to no affect on the high end herb market from these players.

Admittedly this is a fair amount of theorizing on my part but I remain hopeful it's what will play out; if Given's logic does prove to be true and we see Mana Thistle increase in price drastically than I would expect nothing less of Blizzard but to implement further changes.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Every encounter since Twin Emps has been based on a raid being flasked, so this hasn't changed. My logic is that if guilds have managed to progress through content, albeit more slowly, without flasks, they will continue to do so without flasks even after the change.


Ok, what's your point?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Good question. Raiding make up a raiding guild. Oryx is a raiding guild and I don't think you've beaten Gruul's Lair, either.

So if they simply tone down the 360 cleave, damage between classes being equal, why am I taking a Rogue over a Warlock or a Mage? Such a mechanic simply does not have a place in the game unless there is an equivalent mechanic for ranged classes or melee classes do more damage to justify their liability. I like the latter personally and it would seem that they're working towards that direction in some capacity.

As far as the glancing blow changes are concerned, sure, it's absolutely possible that they go over the top and fury warriors and rogues start trouncing ranged classes on the damage meters and encounters become trivialized but I honestly see no real reason to predict such a doomsday scenario. By and large, Blizzard has done an exceptional job of balancing the classes in both PVE and PVP and thus I continue to think this will remain true as the game moves forward.

Again, it may not be perfect out of the gates but things rarely are, especially when it comes to MMOs.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

You see this change as a "good" thing. I dont see this as a change at all, you are STILL required to spend a huge amount of time farming mats just to raid. Also, as more and more people get to highend raiding, more and more people will be farming



What was the last game mechanic change that Blizzard did right? Druids not having weapon procs because blizzard didnt know how to implement it, then in BC beta, druids geting wepaon procs, then having them removed as a "bug"? Rage normalization crippling lowend warriors and then almost compleatly being unnerfed. Weapon skill/glancing blow nerf that is now being undone. Seriously, where are the changes that remove the monotony from the game? Hell, now they are moving the spawn points of herbs to be closer to mob spawns. GG screwing healers who arnt fail spec.

There's no point in talking to a Fanboi like yourself, because in your eyes Blizzard can do no wrong. What's worse is if you are who I remember you to be, you played EQ right along side with most of us, and yet you still think everything with this game is peachy keen.

As for you Neesha, no we haven't, Kham was making a point, so hit us below the belt all you want to but the last thing we want to do is be bleeding edge in this game.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

And you still seem to be missing the fact that every single high end guild is saying the same shit I am. They are fucking up.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

This is from Tigole about 40 minutes ago on the Elitist Jerk forums. Apparently he's going around doing damage control because the CM's are releasing "previews" that are making the resulting changes horrible. THIS is the change that needed to be posted from the beginning. This is the step in the right direction.

Another one.



So again, we were right. It's too much nerfing at once, especially with the flask changes. The one thing worth noting is that the mats for flasks were "greatly" reduced.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Edit: Karthun's slow, I just posted this shit.

Sola

Edit: Fuck you, i had a nother post from Tigole.

“It's too much nerfing at once “

I wonder at you mentioning this.

Would you rather they have only introduced these things one at a time, so you could get used to all the other unchanged things, and bitch even more and more each time each change came separately?

Better to get the bitching over all at once and get it over with than drag it out over several patches and drag out everyones complaints.

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"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.

You can't properly balance encounters when you essentially cut the required raid DPS in half, all at once. That would require them to actually have competent people testing their shit before it hits PTR's then live, then letting guilds like Nilhium and DnT test them

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Call me whatever you like, it still doesn't change the fact that I'm one of the few people supporting the arguments I'm making while the bulk of you run around screaming of the apocalypse, stuff typical reserved for the WoW forums. Casting radical judgements based on vague information is ridiculous at best; if you insist on being overly negative about the upcoming changes than that's your prerogative.

Is everything in the game peachy keen? Nope. It is however clear that they're continually making changes in the best interest of the game based on player feedback. The reality is that some (alchemy) take longer than others (Gruul/Magtheridon). I'm sorry but your demand for the game to be perfect at the drop of a hat is not a reasonable one.

P.S. - I'm still waiting to hear what exactly makes WoW so much easier than other games out there and what point exactly Khameir was trying to make with regards to the definition of a raiding guild.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Don't put words into my mouth. I'm telling you the same thing I'm telling them, and every other person with an ounce of sense is telling them. They are fucking up, plain and simple.

On top of that, with all the posts coming out of Tigole right now, it just re inforces my point. The CM's are out to make sure that the "casual player" is kept well informed so they don't go running away to anotehr game, when all they did was supremely fuck up information becuase they gave it to us half assed. Tigole's single solitary post about having easy access to flasks was the ONLY thing ever required to be posted without having the shitstorm from me on these forums, and every high end forum that's read by at least 50% of the player base.

As for the adjustments made to raiding, it's a trickle down effect. I don't want it done 100% on time asap right now. I want it done properly, which is something Blizzard has never been able to do, once, since the release of this game.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Try every encounter since BWL. And, because they WILL BE TUNING content with Flasks in mind, guilds that do not use flasks over elixirs (on a class by class basis) are gimping themselves...therefore have absolutely NO ROOM to bitch about content being hard if they don't do what it take to maximize raid efficiency.

And Karazhan is not a yardstick to measure how your guilds raid progression is. Karazhan is Upper Black Rock Spire 2.0 with a week timer and harder trash mobs. And no, we aren't in Gruul's Lair yet because...heaven forbid...we're taking our time enjoying the game and aren't trying to "beat" it like a lot of other people.

The reason a good majority of us are concerned about all these changes however is because we are on the verge of starting Gruul and why start him now when we can wait on the nerf bat and do him afterward? I don't like sticking my dick in a blender when I don't have to in the name of raiding...

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I wasn't trying to hit below the belt, I was saying that it was a pretty dumb statement to pretend that only guilds that are in Gruul's Lair (and beyond) can comment on raiding or the state of raids and guilds, as he was implying.

Sorry I had a bad day and I took it wrong, my bad brotha

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Well Neesha, my comment is more directed at the fact that if you're in a guild that is just clearing Karazhan then the problems plaguing guilds that are in Gruul's Lair, SSC or TK don't really effect you in a direct manner. They effect everyone, indirectly, in the game who has aspirations of seeing the end game content. Everyone in entitled to their opinions, but when your opinions go against the proven facts, no one wants to listen to you. And of course if you don't raid at all, trying to back up Blizzard in all this kind of makes you look REALLY stupid.

A lot of people are using Karazhan as a yardstick to say "Our guild is clearing Karazhan, so we're hardcore". My point is that clearing Karazhan means you're clearing Karazhan. Beating a 10 man instance, which is basically a farming zone to gear up for 25 man raids, does not make you hardcore. Is is a good accomplishment? Of course it is. But it doesn't make you hardcore.

The funny part about all the information released today by the CM's is that Tigole is now having to play a metric fuckton of damage control...

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I still think its ironic that WoW has veteran EQ players in design and devolpment, yet thier itemization in this expansion has been absolute shit.

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Machival - Night Watch - Moonrunner
Krobelus - Night Watch - Moonrunner

I agree. Tigole sold out.

If this isn't sarcasm, please elaborate.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark