Pfft.

Crusader is shit in pvp.

Dual Lifestealing to maximize damage - healing if thats your thing.

Agility if you n eed more crit/dodge.

If all I were doing is pvp, i'd dual Lifesteal unless my gear was low end and then the 30 agility might supplament a bit of stats i'm missing.

I never bought into putting one on main, another on offhand. Both weapons with same enchant or nothing. The only exception to that i'd even consider being viable is raiding with crusader mainhand, 15 agil offhand.

Yah, I noticed ihad agi mats laying around so went with that since my gear does suck.

Thanks =)

For dagger PvP rogues, I'd go +5 damage or fiery on main hand and +agility on off hand. Lifesteal is about the same as fiery (less damage, but heals too) but costs around 5x as much, so I'd skip it unless price is really no object. If that is the case though, +5 damage is the best main hand enchant possible IMO. There have been long mathematical threads about +5 damage vs +15 agility, and almost every one concludes that on main hand the damage matters more and on offhand the agility matters more.

Hope that helps.

Since he mostly PVPs, I'd say Lifesteal is the way to go.

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I just wish I could find THE definitive thread on those +dmg enchants because everyone and their mom atests to a different theory.

I've now heard:

Adds to the base dmg of weap
Adds to the top end dmg of weap
Adds 5 dmg to every attack

If it adds to the top end of the dmg, then backstab would be increased by 45dmg and ambushes 90dmg.

my warrior uses the lobot and the glacial one from AV. Put fiery on both cause it was cheap. Works well though for farming and dps on raids. Last time i did MC with him he came out 7th hehe. Go go executes p.

I don't think Fiery is why you got 7th.

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I can't point you to the definative thread, but I'm pretty sure I know the correct answer. It adds damage to the base modified damage, but is affected by the +% of backstab and ambush.

For example (using simple numbers), if you have a dagger that does 50-100 base damage on the tool tip, but with your attack power it is 100-150, a +5 damage enchant would make that 105-155. Backstab would modify this number, which isn't as good as adding to base damage, but is better than just adding 5 damage to the end result. It is also increased by crits this way.

Fiery is great from level 1 to 20.

Any DPS warrior, and I use that description very very loosely because if I describe them as anything else they start crying, that doesn't have crusader on his shit in a raid enviroment needs to rethink about exactly why he is wasting a raid spot.

Anyone else below you on the DPS list needs to stop playing.

Hafta agree with the crusader comment- it'll blow away any other enchant in added damage for DPSwars.

In regards to the second comment, though, I respectfully disagree- a properly geared DPS warrior can put out CRAZY dps. My RL buddy (arguably the best geared/skilled DPS warrior on my server) regularly tops my guild's dps chart, and we have some very competative rogues and mages.

As good as Crusader is for Rogues, it is twice as good for Warriors. Any Warrior using anything else at level 60 is really hurting his DPS.

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Hehe....does this damn dagger EVER proc? I've had it for 5 days or so now and I can't say that in my farming I've seen it go off even once.

No dmg message, no unusual dmg, no icon on the target for brain dmg...etc.

I don't get it.

I agree with crusader for warrior, but the question is for rogues. There is no doubt +agility is the best enchant for off hand on a rogue, and mainhand you can make a few arguements, but for dagger, I stick by +5.

As a Rogue who uses Swords (switching to Maces if the Servo Arm would ever drop), I prefer the Lifesteal/Crusader combo (or double Crusader) over +agility, even if the agility is just on the offhand. As far as the dagger's proc rate, you should get a Vis'Kag if you REALLY want to see a shitty proc rate.

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Yea I really prefer Crusader over Agility(especially on mobs like Loatheb where any source of healing helps). I have Agility on my offhand atm, but as soon as either a Maexxna's Fang or Servo Arm drops I'm going to be moving Harbinger to offhand and adding Crusader to my mainhand too.

I should clarify my enchant suggests are for a dagger rogue (Lobo), not a sword/mace rogue.

Lifesteal + Crusader + 8/8 Bloodfang + Heroism card = a spot on the heal meters!

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i agree my rogue has dual crusader enchants, i just put fiery on my wariors weapons cause it was cheap and i only ran the war on alt raids. Crusader is the shit for dps warriors, but since i play my lock full time and my rogue is now an alt and my war a farm mule, i will never waste cash on crusader for him. Now if he was my main raid toon would go crusader for sure.

Fury Warrior + CTS + Crusader + Crul'Sorukh + Crusader + Full BWL DPS Gear = Top 5 DPS Charts.

if you don't have 5 mages and rogues in equally good gear

Top dpsers in my guild are Warriors and rogues, directly followed by mages.
For some reason none of the other classes ever make it to top 10.

Yeah right now our top dps'r is a fury warrior. Kinda sad, but he's made a lot of the right investments in gear while we are giving drake fang talismans to hunters.....

10/0/41 is the new hotness.

For pvp? Got a link Givin? I'd be curious as to what plugs into what. I've like NEVER gone deeper in sub than Ambush.

10/0/40 for pve

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xfoZZxrI0hhRoekx


but this one for pvp.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=foxbZZxzeohhRsxst

Fairly similar.

That pvp one looks interesting, but the assassin portion of it looks...weird hehe. Why Murder? Does that actually work on players? I suppose they qualify as Humanoid.

I feel stupid asking such basic questions, but I've played my lock now for a long long time and the rogue, tho he was my main from early beta...I've gotten out of touch lol.....

Making mistakes while speccing gets 'spensive =P

As far as i'm aware, murder affects players.

It is useless in outland however, as it does not work on undead or demons. So probably not hot shit for Naxx either.

Then again, im pvping right now for weapons. Not a big deal for me personally at present.

Actually, now that i think about it. That pvp spec sucks dick.

I'll revamp it and repost later tonight.

No imp sap, and im weighing Cheat Death right now. Probably revise it. I don't like ghostly strike all that much either.

Hemo is an acquired spec. You either like it or you don't. Some spam hemo over and over and complain about damage, but if you manage SS with hemo to make the best use of your energy per tick its destructive.

Yeah, thats the exact same reason I'm pvping him again instead of going back into raid mode. I want those daggers lol.

Givin, Neesha, anyone...

I wanna stay Daggers, what build would you recommend with the changes from last patch?

I was Cold Blood/Prep before the patch with maces, but I really want to go back to daggers.

I've heard almost nothing about Mutilate, always good things about Hemo X/X/41 specs and such and Combat Daggers.

However, I enjoy PvP and do it almost exclusively now since I'm grinding for the PvP Rewards.

I am about to get a Lobotomizer, and I'm going to go for a Distracting Dagger

Right now, my build is: 0/8/43

I'd appreciate your advice.

Don't ask me, I don't do daggers.

Hemo is complete and total garbage with daggers.

This is why mutilate was created I believe.

If you're staying dagger, you really only have two choices. Regular good ole seal fate, or mutilate.

Mutilate vs Hemo.


Mutilate out generates even hemo's fast ability to generate combo points, and has the highest burst damage potential of the two.

However, you lose a good 80% of the survivalbility of the build. No prep is the suck honestly in pvp.

I am curently mutilate right now to play around with it. It's a one hit wonder that doesn't rely on cooldowns basically. You kill the target, or you get CC'd and fail.

Honestly, i'd say cold blood/prep.

And don't waste your honor points on a Lobotomizer. Just get the Grand Marshal Dirk/High Warlord Dagger if thats the route you want to stick with. Lobotomizer is just wasting honor. Even if you aren't 60, its a great goal to work for. If you don't want daggers, get 2 maces. Mace Spec in combat is far superior to the others, and they also rock for hemo builds as well.

Thanks for the info.

I used to swear on hemo, preparation etc..
Skilled like that again, and had my butt handed to me BIG time.

I switched to 41-2-8 and I havent looked back once.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iheboxxsizmobZx0h

Mainhand Lobotomizer/Crusader, Offhand Glacial Dagger/15 Agi (used to have Hakkari Blade in Offhand - but doesnt work with mutilate..and I just couldnt get my hands on a useful dagger yet)

The combos fly in SO fast, that I cant instantly use them all the time: Action not ready yet.

I usually walk out of a BG in the top 5.
Facing my gear isnt really that awsome (ZG, PvP, some t1) I really have no reason to complain.
Mutilate Crits are between 900 and 1300 each weapon, highest Evi was 3210.

I am now thinking of dropping Crusader for +5 on my mainhand, simply because I can rely on my dps and not on crusader proc.

Why do you not have ANY points in opportunity when you use daggers?

1 second of gouge and the increased runspeed are not worth losing the 10% bonus to your mutilates.

Enchants for Mutilate should be

+5 damage mainhand

15 agil offhand.

Also, for this build, a 5 piece Nightslayer bonus + 3 piece Bloodfang is Jesus, and you'll be chugging Thistle Tea or relying a lot on your Renetaki's Charm of Trickery. They enhance it so much more.

Im going to go back to MC just to grab a few more pieces of Nightslayer again.

meh

sounds like rogues have sand in their collective pussy.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

BS didn't get nerfed, I played on my roommates rog yesterday and was getting 1600+ crits a lot

that "new concussive stun" has been in the game forever, its on the very bottom tier of their marksman talents

that talent that has a chance to root on any slowing effect for mages, also been in the game forever

Lock dot damage doesn't seem to be a big issue when I play my roommates rog, but he has 41 points in sub -- that being said dot damage was increased a ton and felguards are a pain

Shaman? a barrage of instant spells with a cooldown? they don't have "flashheal", but yes you need to stunlock well and use posions well, gouge kick blind ks are all your friends

Priest, you are talking about a shadow priest with mind flay, anyone will tell you shadow priests are difficult 1 v 1 for any class, but they can be stunlocked -- lrn2pvptrinket? sounds like you are alliance


Basically it sounds like you are a horrible player and arn't using any of the skills available to you.


My roommates rog hasn't stepped foot in a raid zone so don't even pull the no available gear card, shit he has never been in an instance higher then sm

Good point Givin.

Guess the moment I made this talentbuild, I was still too stuck with my 22-0-29 I used to have for ages.

I meanwhile dont care about my stealth*speed* anymore, and will be resetting my talents again later on.

*g* its getting pricy to change my mind.

*shrug*

What the fuck is a rog?


Holy crap some of these posts really do seem cut and pasted from the WoW forums.

Ok, first of all alliance wasn't an insult, I was making a reference to you not having WoTF hence the pvp trinket comment.


Improved Concussive shot is in the FIRST tier of marksman, nearly every hunter going for pvp gets it. This talent can be maxed at lvl 14..


Any mage spec'd for pvp frost is going to have frostbite since you only need to spend *5* points to get it, deep into the tree? pvp twink mages have this talent in the 19 bracket. you must be kidding.


My point is that rogues are far from broken regardless of gear, it is clearly the player in this case. My roommate is in the blue pvp set, far from even decent gear.

The fact that you didn't know anything about either of those 2 talents after 2 years? highly amusing.

This isn't about trolling, its about you being completely blind to core elements of the game. This is much like people playing mario 64 and not knowing you can wall jump, completely oblivious to large portions of the game mechanics. Perhaps you should read up on other classes and how they work, it might help you face up against them in pvp.

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Really the bottom line is, if you are pvping on a rogue, go deep sub tree.

Mutilate is fine, but its fluff compared to the awesome that is Cloak of Shadows.

Honestly, mutilate is only for people that don't have acess to non dagger weapons, which is nobody at level 60 really.

Compare the two really, Fast combo point generation and high damage output "IF" you poison your target, or fast combo point generation, and high damage output with a HUGE slab of survival on the side. I mean come on, Cloak of Shadows takes Loathebs Inpending Doom off. It's good shit. No cloth will kill you with Cloak of Shadows armed and ready. It's like going back in time.

Get it. Love it. Learn how it works and anyone here that is interested in pvp at all, for whatever reason will thank God it's there.

And your raid DPS is still very respectable with it also in the right gear. You cannot go wrong with the new sub tree, cant stress it and sing its praise enough.

Bupas played a friend's Rogue, so he is an expert on the class. Any complaints you have about the class mean you suck, because Bupas played a friend's Rogue and backstabbed for 1600.

I have a 60 rog as well on twisting nether, I just have no way to play him since my original account was banned

I play my roommates rog because his account is still playable and because his character actually benefits from the recent patch


Leveling a rogue from 1-60 in a pvp guild, maxing rank for each level range before stopping at rank 13 -- I have a pretty good idea how to pvp on a rogue.


Can you really defend not knowing about improved concussive shot and frostbite 2 years into the game neesha?

Bleh.

I have no remorse for botting a single hunter to 60 at all. I was also not upset about getting banned.

The bottom line is that you had no idea about two key, basic, concepts of the game. You came here crying about a class that has been anything but nerfed by the talent improvements and complained by additions to the game that have existed since release. Holy shit shaman can dispell blind? Warriors can break sap with berserker rage? Mages can blink out of cheap shot?? Damn blizzard and their stealth nerfs!

If you are trying to say I have less understanding of the class because I ran a botting program, that makes you look even more retarded for not understanding simple concepts of game play as someone that slaved so hard at the keyboard to reach level 60 in world of warcraft. Understanding how other classes work is just as important as understanding your own class.

Wow I got caught botting when I decided to level an *8th* character to 60 oh no. After doing the same quests over and over so many times botting is a great alternative. Complete are we there yeti? for the 5th time, or go out to the bars -- I will take going out any day.


Rogues have stealth, this ability gives them a "grossly" one sided advantage over any class besides a druid in pvp. You can start the fight on your terms, if you choose that poorly that is your own fault, the advantage is yours to start with. With effective use of abilities, cooldowns, consumables, rogues are a class that can completely prevent their opponent from fighting back, very few classes can do that with any control. Rogues are a class where skill shows a great deal -- but the class is far from broken. Call me whatever you want, but atleast I don't suck at the one class I know how to play.

Fuggit.

You realize the more you respond to him, the more he's going to post, right Larreth?

Also, part of the fundamentals of PvP is understanding how other classes work. This doesn't require much effort at all. Even playing a class from 1-20 gives you a good idea of the basics, and doing a little research doesn't hurt either.

It sounds like right now the RNG hates you, and you're whining about it because you're not as successful as you used to be. Get the sand out of your vagina and deal with it.

And stop responding to Bupas.[/quote]

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Repeating the exact same argument that I am "trolling" you has gotten you nowhere so perhaps you should pick another angle. I hate to break it to you but people were arguing on these boards years before the release of world of warcraft. My posting style has very little to do with having spent time playing WoW.

Kiddo? You are the one that just used the "well I could own you on another character that we aren't talking about" card. Are you going to tell me that your friends could own me next? The majority of people left posting on these boards are relatively "oldschool", meaning they entered the community before 2001. By math alone this means that most of the posters here are at least 20, perhaps 18 minimum. Using the whole "I am older than you" argument is pointless unless you are Gothor's age.

Take a look at your first post on this thread, for someone that clearly dislikes the WoW general forum type posts, you couldn't have created a better imitation. Your arguments wreak of hypocrisy. Admit it -- you cried, you were wrong, move on.

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I still want to know, what the fuck is a 'rog'?!?
Is that like the ever popular Rouge?
Its no wonder you're sucking, you're playing an undefined class!

Larreth, Bupas keeps coming back with actual arguments, while you can offer nothing more than, "omg WOW poster lamer!"

You are the one looking like an idiot right now.

Sorry, but that whole tirade about everyone having the upper hand on rogues is about the most misinformed tirade of bullshit i've ever read.

If anything coming out of this horseshit halfass patch with the 41 point talents, rogues got signifigantly the most powerfull boost out of any class.

Cloak of Shadows.

If you have never used it. Do not respond because you simply do not know.

If anything, this thread is the one starting to sound like the WoW official forums. It reeks with the same stench of bullshit that comes from there.

To put it simple....

It is fucking stupid to pvp as a rogue in this game with any other spec other than one that goes 41 points into the sub tree, and if you are dual weilding daggers you are a target, not a threat.

*sigh* whatthehellever. I ask a simple question I get torn apart. I defend my PoV I get attacked again.

Fuck it.

Having been a combat/swords Rogue all my life, I always thumbed my nose at anyone who didn't have a similar build. I rarely, if ever lost out in damage on any fights long or short-term (other than Vael when our best Dagger Rogues actually showed up and lived throughout the fight). I could understand the advantages of Subtlety & crap if you were PVPing, but otherwise, I saw no reason to NOT be Combat/Swords or Combat/Daggers.

With the announced changes that the expansion was going to bring about, including making all of our time and effort spent learning raid encounters a complete waste of fucking time, I lost any desire to play the game ever again. I still think Blizzard fucked up royally by doing what they are doing, but I decided to reactivate my cancelled account just for some PVP action.

I reactivated a week ago and finally changed my build to be more PVP-oriented (more subtlety). After experiencing the differences (I am still re-learning things), and hearing about CoS, I am finally going to go to the proverbial 'dark side' and go almost full subtlety to see how the other half lives.

I must say that I have been having a surprisingly fun time PVPing, even in PUGs, where we constantly get steamrolled by the evil Horde. However, if I am going to do it, I may as well go all out. Tonight, I will respec to something like 0/3/48 just to see how it goes. It will be quite a change from the in your face style I am accustomed to, but it should be interesting. I'll post my thoughts/opinions on it after a few nights of PVP.

I am changing my Talents... Jesus Wept.

And on that note, I am unsure which GM weapon I should get next. I am leaning towards the GM offhand sword, since I already have a CTS for the main hand (and my offhand is either a Brutality Blade or a Vis'Kag). Should I go with the GM offhand sword first to replace the BB? There's not much difference between the manihand and the CTS, really.

I went mace first. It makes a wonderful counterpart to a servo arm if you pick one up eventually.

For sub its cosmetic really between the combat weapons. Since you have good swords, you could pick up the hand to hand weapons just to have if you wanted a change up later on down the line from swords.

You'd also have the mace if you wanted easy mode stun spam combat in pvp.

Honestly there isn't a right or wrong pickup order. In order of importance i'd go with this however.

Since you are a PVE raider, upgrade your weapon of choice, so for you.

1--Sword for good ole sword spec

2--Mace for playing with stuns

3--Both h2h for highest pve damage

4--Daggers if you ever had a
hankering to try mutilate pve or pvp.

Really the honor gain isn't so bad, even with the scale back, so picking up a set of these weapons isn't much hassle. On the plus side, they are good enough weaponry to save you DKP/RPP on dungeon drops and will last you at least midway through your 60s if not longer.

The biggest thing I believe you notice making the switch from combat to sub is the survivalability. You won't be as big of a bulldozer being combat, but you are still very much a killing machine, and I was honestly suprised at how respectable PvE damage is.

Alot of people are hung up over losing Lethality in the deep sub builds. The crazy abilitys you get deep down I believe make up for it.

Cloak of Shadows alone eased my mind in the tradeoff. <3. Its worth it to me untill they add it in as a trainable ability. Not excited about Shadowstep, but meh. I'll throw the talent point somewhere else.

ya know, that is one thing i really do like about wowarcraft- the fact that not everyone is going to be the exact same spec build (or whatever it is called). sure, you can kinda do that with aaxp in everquest; however, over time, everyone pretty much has the same aaxp and same gear with minimal changes. at least with wowarcraft, you have to make decisions on what you want. that is kinda neat...

-cc

I think this discussion proves that the exact opposite is true in WoW, Cicely. There are vastly different builds that you can go with in WoW, regardless of your class. Druids can go with builds where they are tanks, builds where they are big owl-looking moonkins for spell casting, builds where they are trees, and other crap. Warriors can go totally offensive or totally defensive, and branch off from there with 1-handers vs. 2-handers. Hunters can go pet-heavy, or ranged attack-heavy, and more.

While I think Blizzard is doing a shitty job on how they are handling the expansion, one of their strong suits has always been the various builds you could choose. The GEAR people have is the bigger issue, not the builds. I bet if we had 10 Rogues post their gear in this thread, you'd see very little difference between our stuff. And even the stuff that may be different could easily have been gotten if we wanted it. In fact..........