where ever necessary

I really doubt that it will go well for a month even. There seems to have been a concerted effort to stop bleed from other servers by voting for the least intriguing choice by a number of larger guilds across all servers. It was smart of them.

I wasn't trying to be overdramatic but was intentionally trying to display how meaningful their opportunity was for this 10th anniversary. However, it would be a once in a lifetime journey through history. No one will ever have the opportunity to experience or understand EQ as we did. They'll always have it easy, never facing consequence, or experience competition. MMO communities are extremely lacking because of this and it would have been a great opportunity to re-educate some new players and give former players a chance to get back into a challenging MMO. I think it would have been a great opportunity for SOE as well, there are a lot of major guilds and players in WoW that are bored, WAR is diminishing, AoC is practically dead, LotRO is non-existent, and I can go on and on and EQ did have something to offer. It would have been a great building opportunity to step people through Class and then through each expansion.

One, it's hard to consider EQ torture unless you either make it torture or its all you can personally see in EQ. However, that does not represent how many people feel about EQ or how many people would feel given the correct server. If you think that EQ Classic (through Velious) or a time-locked progression would not have been a hit and received a lot of resubs then you've been out of touch on any major board.

Regardless we are talking in terms of opinions but you can't deny other's opinion just because they do not match your own. EQ is merely dated that is all.. do I play it? No, it widely known I play WAR. I check into EQ time to time merely to see old friends and take advantage or a free month. However, I have realized that PvP games are just too dependent on people and this generation of players are impatient, spoiled, and most of the time MMO ignorant. Until a game captures what EQ created you're going to have WoW and that's all. People will continue to get worse, communities will weaken, and MMO's will back themselves into a corner of slowly meeting player demands that continually move toward an easy and self reliant system.

EQ wasn't torture, we made it torture, but that in itself displays just how much we took and how we always seem to walk back. Ask yourself how many games had that impact on you. I don't believe it was an addiction but it was a challenge and human nature is to either respond and rise above or give up. How many games present that challenge? How many avoid that challenge and you see people just whining, cancelling and going somewhere else? EQ is only dead to some because they do not want to face a challenge, we've been spoiled, that is why you make not have that desirability. However, it does not take 12 hours a day to be successful but it does take community interaction to succeed, people have to strategize, work for access to dungeons, build group and understand roles so unless you just can't stand the dated graphics then you've been spoiled for too long. I say if SOE would have made the right move in choosing the right server (regardless of the poll) many people would have soon remembered and then you would understand the recation and the flaws in your arguement.

Sorry for rambling or whatever, I keep getting interrupted with phone calls and managing guest speakers for classes today. I'll go back over this later and hopefully we can get this back on topic.

I still think you guys are looking at EQ through rose-colored glasses. Sure, WE enjoyed it and can appreciate the challenge that it provided way back when. But do you honestly think a dude who has been playing WoW for 3 years would like playing EQ and suddenly realizing that he can't raid... ever... because Uber_Guild02 kills all of the raid mobs at noon while he is at work? Do you think someone who clears Naxx 25 in 3 hrs would enjoy going to Vex Thall and after 3 hrs see that he has only killed 1 boss? Do you think that key quests and getting flagged for zones will give the people who were spoon-fed so much in WoW a sense of accomplishment, or will it just piss them off that it is "so hard?"

I know that the game changed and things are different now, but I really think that the only ones who will truly appreciate the appeal of EQ are the ones, like us, who were there in the beginning. We didn't know any better. 14-hour raids were normal for us because that's all we knew. I just think many of you are fooling yourselves if you really think EQ "as it was" is what gamers are looking for.

I'm sorry but I don't think this makes any sense.

Makes perfect sense to me. What doesn't make sense?

People will continue to get worse? Communities will weaken? Based on what and relative to what? I'm waiting for someone to tell me that were better off with carburetors instead of fuel injection.

And show me evidence of where Blizzard made a significant design departure relative to their MO as a result of caving to the community.

So I'm to infer from your point that easier content makes people... better...?

Why would I bother with the second point, when their "MO" can mean absolutely anything from your point of view or mine.

Yeah. I agree completely with that. The trend is moving this way and has been for years. Do you disagree?

My point was that people are constantly stating how much better things were 'back in the day' and is akin to some old guy professing how much better cars were when they were carbureted.


Let's be more specific then, show me an example of when Blizzard significantly changed their design of some facet of the game based on player demands.

Attunements?

Is that a joke?

Keys to Heroic dungeons.

Removal of flag requirements for raid progression.

Countless PvP/Arena changes that drastically altered the PvE side of the game.

Uhm, do you want a full list, or will a summary do?

- Lowering requirements for Heroic keys to Honored instead of revered.
- Nerfing Magtheridon and Gruul into simplistic encounters (yeah, the original state needed a nerf, but not to the level they got)
- Removing attunements to SSC/Tk
- Removing attunement from BT.
- All around T5/6 boss nerfs in 2.4

And now they continue in Ulduar -- it was supposed to be hard. For some people who didn't have the skill and/or gear, it might have been "too hard" -- but now it's getting too easy, and it's only been what, three weeks?

How about just raid sizes in general? From 40 to 25. Then 10-man versions in WotLK?

(And people STILL whine about raid sizes.)

Honestly, the multiple raid sizes are a boon, imo.

If the only difference is tuning and loot tables, then by all means, provide me five man versions!

It's gameplay was stale? Then why did you play it for four plus years? Raid content was somewhat inaccessible to casuals, but certainly not completely.

EverQuest's big success was the community formed on each server and throughout the game. People payed attention to what other people and guilds were doing. Everyone knew when a guild passed some major milestone because you actually cared. In WoW no one has to care what other guilds and people are doing because it's not like they'll kill a mob and it won't be up for a week so you can work on it, you can just go get your own instance.

There will never be another EverQuest. The masses won't stand for things being difficult. This new generation of gamers wants everything on easy mode. They might as well just play X-Box live for all the community that exists in the newer MMORPGs and as long as everything continues on easy mode that won't change. I don't think a game that had the leveling curve that EQ had at the beginning would survive very long, which is a shame because it really did force grouping and getting to know the other people on your server. Even EQ these days has been dumbed down for the newer generation of gamers and that is largely WoWs fault. No one can get away with creating a difficult MMORPG now because Blizzard handed everyone a game that is so individualized and easy that no one would put up with it. It's a shame really that Blizzard failed to realize that what makes these type of games truly great is the friendships and enemies you gather as you maintain some type of actual reputation, much like real life.

The only reward you have for playing these games these days is the loot you get. EverQuest could space out expansions a little bit because it was difficult for people to get all of the best loot and the loot that you did get you had to put real effort into getting and it felt like a reward. With WoW being the lootfest it is and with the ease people are getting the best gear in each expansion, they need to be producing expansions as fast or faster than EQ did and they have failed miserably at doing that.

As far as the new server idea? Yeah, lame. I would have been more willing to come back to a three or six month per expansion server with steeper leveling curves than they currently have. No instances, a real community, and some fun times. I might have done that.

- Epics outside of raids - badge loot.

There is no need at all for a new server, regardless of what it was. I highly doubt most players who are still playing would even bother to create a new character on that one and lose their PL ability with their mains for their alts. As easy as the game is with vet rewards/xp potions/hot zones/mercs/defiant armor/etc etc... it still takes some time doing it all on your own- especially once you get to 50+. My solo monk in top of the line group gear at 73/300 could get nearly 5 AA per lesson burn in a hot zone w/o a merc. With, it drops to around 3 AA per lesson. W/O lesson or xp potions it drops to around 3 AA per hour. Not really the quickest of pace, but definitely much better than in years past.

Without altering game code that much, it is relatively difficult to give a 10 year anniversary reward for everyone that players want. If you really want a server type of reward with a positive impact, then allow all active players/accounts one free server transfer w/gear. Give them 30 days to decide if they want to go, and where. Maybe people may flock to one particular server and build a community there? Maybe guilds can fill in the holes they are missing via cross server recruitment instead of within their own server? Maybe that shuts down a couple servers and merges those players into other servers to help build up the community?

Or maybe it is time to just reduce server usage to build up server population. I dunno. But I guess I just think regardless of whatever result the players voted on (50/51, progression, etc) that it still wouldn't be used and would fail quickly- just like the other two older progression servers did.

Just give us another no-rules PvP server, RAWR.

Bingo!!

Also, Xan you said it better than I could in 8 posts. Very well put..

Also, about this statement...



I do not disagree but I believe in the beginning it wasn't so bad. Then as more people caught on, more people were heard. This expedited the process and before we knew it, MMO's were changed. Just as many have already confirmed, WoW has done this and many others have as well. I think this is were EQ's value increased and any game that touted challenging gameplay did as well. I think this also helped market PvP games and what Brad tried to pull off with Vanguard. People though WAR and AoC would provide a challenge. No more easy mode level grinding and item drops... you were challenge by these opposing forces, skilled in years of game playing. However, they suffered the same fate. Everyone whines and wants to be all powerful in terms of the individual. Every aspect of the game must be rewarding as the other, every progression perfectly tuned to the next level of mobs and encounters, etc. People don't even try, the EQ poll proves it. They just wanted to skip over the first 5 hours (which is watered down enough) so they can have happy fun-time with their alts.

Anyway, to conclude and step off my soap box, I think what all of this really stems from is to celebrate a 10th Anniversary I believe the former players of EQ felt they should be considered along with the content over the previous 10 years. Regardless if I am a subscriber or not, I paid SoE off and on (more on than off) for over 7 years. I believe that those people should have been a part of that poll and not forced to reactivate. Secondly, how do you celebrate 10 years by skipping over the first 2-3 years worth of content? Foundational content. It all seems just off... fair of not, it is more of an injustice to its players and the game. EQ, no matter were it ranks in the past or present, deserved better than a 50/51 server.

Sorry, i was asking Kuwen if he disagreed.

I really really really really miss competing for raid mobs with other guilds.

Me too.

There is zero community in WoW at the server level. If they could add global instance queuing for pugs, it would actually be a good thing, because the only things servers do at the moment is limit your player base. Just think, a Lanys reunion Naxx or Ulduar raid on off nights.

That's the biggest thing to me. There's no community. You basically ARE your Armory page and nothing more now.

Well, I admit I'm biased. I liked the fact that in early EQ community was both necessary and encouraged. I was kind of hoping that the new server would be a 'classic' server the way the progression servers weren't, with the old rulesets (no shared banks, no multiple channels, no guild pages, corpselooting by others, corpse losing, etc). The harshness of the original ruleset was what made the game a challenge and I was hoping that by reintroducing that kind of challenge to newer gamers they would feel compelled to prove themselves in a way today's games (including today's EQ) don't allow. That, in turn, might convince developers that there is a market for truly challenging and harsh games and maybe lead to someone developing one...

/sigh

There is no way any developer would develop a game for a niche market when it's so much easier to develop a carebear type game and appeal to the masses. In the end it's not about the quality of the game and community for these people, it's about the cash flow coming in.

heh, just about every MMO that's not WoW right now is technically for a "niche market" -- that niche is "people who don't play wow"

ffxi is for fans of anime who like grinding all day every day

Awesome. Two of the suckiest things in life, grinding and anime. What game do I play if I like to be raped in jail?

i love the animes wootaru

Prison Break the Game - The Assplay Chronicles

An actual blue post from today.

lolBlizzard.

WoW gamers wouldn't know "soul crushingly difficult" if it were in a dictionary, and the page it was on then managed to crawl up their ass and die there.

Try completely unlocking a relic or mythic weapon in FFXI. Then you'll know soul crushingly difficult.

Yeah, only in WoW is "Kill the boss that drops the item" considered "soul-crushingly difficult".

What's soul crushing is killing a boss every reset and him never dropping the item.

go go extra large naxx25 loot tables!

My guild was killing KJ in SWP for months before the nerf. I got my damn legendary bow 2 weeks before WoTLK came out (. Least it made lvling to 80 alot easier ).

Because it was the only MMORPG worth playing on the market, and I enjoy the MMORPG brand of gameplay(even if the nuances of the gameplay - such as mechanics, combat, progression, fun factor, etc suck overall - it still has elements such as social interactivity, raiding, dungeon-crawling, etc). Not to mention I really enjoyed the people I played with.

It WAS fun, especially in the early days - but primarily because it was the first game to somewhat correctly integrate all of the elements that are *now* essential to any modern MMORPG, not because of any particularly interesting gameplay mechanics. I think of it more as a bareboned skeleton: all of the basic, functioning parts - with no added flavor.

Another quality post, Venen.

I'm still having fun with it, Venen!

I'd still argue that the mechanics are still every bit as good, just less fluff and filling than WoW. Not to mention very different. I'm currently 2-boxing a Cleric/Enchanter duo and it's totally, extremely different than anything I did in WoW. It's crazy. =)

Social interactivity = Guk trains?

No, no, Leo. The social interactivity was "SOW PLS 4 CR!!1!".

Guk trains were quite fun though, although I'd still rate my personal favs as zoning into KC and seeing Venril Sathir (think that was Givin's train?); Ralanan training Trakanon (purposely) to us.. at Seb entrance; and watching Evesong kite every dragon in Western Wastes around while we zoned into ToV, while some asshat would invariably decide to AFK in WW at the zone-in to ToV.

Fun times!

While trains sucked, the idea that there were other people there and that unpredictable things could happen is really quite an appealing idea.

I logged onto WoW to do some tanking at my wife's request the other night, and the instances just seemed so boring. Mobs all laid out in nice, neat clusters. One long, linear path from beginning to end. Entirely predictable experience from start to finish. No other people, no chance meetings, no nothing.

I understand that this is done so that Blizzard can attempt to create engaging, scripted encounters that are tightly tuned, but...well, that's all well and good, but there's other aspects of an MMO that are interesting, too.

I dunno. For all their shortcomings, I find myself really enjoying EQ dungeons all over again. I died to Froglok Noble in LGuk the other night and was totally lost at the time, and found myself actually worried and irritated and realized that I hadn't felt anything in WoW (other than boredom and frustration) for so long that I'd forgotten the idea of emotional investment.

KC and Guk were awesome. I'll add Velks to the list just for sheer pleasure watching someone slide slowly... slowly.. ever so slowly... off the edge of a ramp and crater to their deaths. Velks was one of my favorite dungeons in that game ever. Getting up to the top with the kobolds felt really challenging the first few times I did it.

Leo and I used to pull Trak to zone with the Eye trick. Good times indeed!

Lol, Tali. The good old eye of zomm pulling. Not sure if you quit before Fading Memories AA came out for Bards, but you'd have loved that. Insta-invis and de-aggro. Great for pulling.

Shame you and Leo were on that other team, though :p
Imagine the crazy shit we could have gotten up to together with Eli and Ral.

It sucked when they broke Eye of Zomm pulling. At least it would still drop through the walls so you could see what was up.

FM was the most ridiculous AA ever heh. I used it on numerous pulls to great effect. To be fair tho, Leo and I didn't hold a candle to Cagen and Listero on the pull splits. That was quite possibly the best pulling team ever assembled (with all due respect to Nalgene). They were just stupid amounts of good.

Erzhan.

For all you Guk fans, they are releasing a revamp to it later on this month with the mobs being lvl 70-80 like over in Blackborough and Cazic Thule. New loot tables and all the fun stuff that goes along with it.

Fun times indeed...