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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:47 PM 
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So, uhh.. what should he have done.. assuming it's true..?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:22 AM 
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What, never had your ass kicked before?


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:41 AM 
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Where are all these witnesses coming from? Why can't I find a picture that incorporates any part of Zimmerman's face and shows injuries? I just have pictures of some guy with wounds on his head, and assurances from agencies at highly various trust levels assuring me that 1) the guy in the picture is Zimmerman, 2) the pictures were taken the night he killed Trayvon, and 3) Trayvon inflicted the wounds.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:48 AM 
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Toxicology shows "trace amounts" of THC in Trayvon's blood and urine. Leaving alone that there are no lab results showing the effects of those tests when all the fluids are at room temperature or lower because you're testing a dead person: No one took toxicology samples on the guy holding the weapon. Tox screens can only help the defense, because no one did their damned job this whole case.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:34 AM 
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Obviously you've already convicted him in your own mind, and nothing is going to change that, so why do you need evidence ?

why should anyone bother supplying it to you ?
Again I'm not convinced he's guilty of murder, I'm also not convinced he isn't.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:03 AM 
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Obviously you've already convicted him in your own mind, and nothing is going to change that, so why do you need evidence ?


He wants evidence because there are some facts that are pretty clear in this case, and other facts that are far from clear but are being used to excuse a man for murdering an unarmed, law-abiding, average teenager.

Some people seem so eager to give Zimmerman a pass on this, and they keep throwing completely silly things out there like, "Martin did weed!" and "Martin posted something mean on Twitter once!" and other nonsense, and want to paint Martin as this vicious madman that nearly beat Zimmerman to death.

Now, I don't know why some people are so intent on taking Zimmerman's side on this one, but if you want us to give you a pass on pursuing, probably confronting, and definately shooting an unarmed teenager that wasn't breaking any laws or doing anything to you, you'd damn well better have a REALLY good set of reasons, evidence and facts.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:27 AM 
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And make sure you release all evidence, facts, etc. to the public before any sort of trial so random people on random internet message boards can decide if you are innocent or guilty based on said evidence, facts, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:40 AM 
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Heh, no...don't make the mistake of thinking that we believe our views on this message board actually mean anything. It's just a case we're interested in and are bitching at each other about.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:21 PM 
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Fuck me, some of you people clearly read, like, one news site and that's it. Here are some facts for you, since you were too lazy to look this shit up:

Zimmerman's neighborhood had been repeatedly hit by burglaries and vandalism, including one home invasion, during the months leading up to this incident. All of the incidents were reported as being perpetrated by young African American males. In only a few incidents were any arrests made. It got to the point that the community was having repeated meetings on the matter, and the police had been called to the area dozens of times since January. Zimmerman was approached to head up the neighborhood watch, since he was the only one who volunteered to be involved when his neighbors asked.

This sheds an enormous amount of light onto why Zimmerman "profiled" Martin. First, Martin wasn't a local, he was visiting. Second, Martin was out, at night, in the rain, and according to Zimmerman had peered into one or two empty homes (many homes in the area were empty due to foreclosure). Third, he fit the profile of kids who had been committing crimes in the area. So, some of you who are flipping your shit over Zimmerman "stalking" Martin or whatever, you need to understand the background of the situation before you go making rush judgements.

Once you take his motivation out of the equation, the rest of these ridiculous theories begin to fall apart. Zimmerman's account of what happened matches up with the timeline of the 911 call. Zimmerman claims that he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from behind, said something to him, and attacked him. There is nothing in evidence to dispute that; in fact, it's far more likely than the account Martin's girlfriend gives. The most reliable witness to altercation saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. The cuts, bruises, and broken nose are all indicative of Zimmerman being pummeled by Martin.

Zimmerman claims he only shot Martin when Martin realized that Zimmerman had a gun and tried to grab it. Martin, who has been listed as anywhere between 6' and 6'3" (the latter by his own family) wasn't some little kid; Zimmerman had every right to be afraid for his life at that point, even if he did confront Martin. Again, there are no witnesses to the actual confrontation: no one, including Martin's girlfriend (who is as unreliable and biased as a witness can possibly be) knows for a fact whom confronted whom that night. We will literally never know what exactly happened, and the best we can go off is the evidence presented, which all points to Zimmerman telling the truth.

Some of you really, really want this to be about race. This despite the fact that Zimmerman himself is a minority, that he has worked with young African Americans as a mentor, and that everyone who knows him says that he is not the least bit racist. Some of you have clearly made up your minds; I understand that, because when I first read the news reports, I thought the fact that he hadn't been arrested was some shady shit. But as we've seen more and more info come out, I've come to realize that the media totally screwed the pooch on this one, and did their best to paint a man as guilty without first waiting to find out what really happened.

I don't post here often anymore. But I do keep tabs on the board, especially on hot-button topics like this one. And it's very frustrating to see so many people I think of as educated and intelligent giving in to the same blind ridiculousness I see elsewhere. Knock it the fuck off. You sound just as retarded as the "birthers" I keep seeing post everywhere.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:47 PM 
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Just like old times, Tyral.

Tyral wrote:
Fuck me, some of you people clearly read, like, one news site and that's it. Here are some facts for you, since you were too lazy to look this shit up:

Okay.

Quote:
Zimmerman's neighborhood had been repeatedly hit by burglaries and vandalism, including one home invasion, during the months leading up to this incident. All of the incidents were reported as being perpetrated by young African American males. In only a few incidents were any arrests made. It got to the point that the community was having repeated meetings on the matter, and the police had been called to the area dozens of times since January. Zimmerman was approached to head up the neighborhood watch, since he was the only one who volunteered to be involved when his neighbors asked.

Unless you're preparing to excuse either racism or vigilantism, I don't see anything that actually helps Zimmerman's case yet. Where are we going here? Remember this is not an assault case; this is murder, of an unarmed juvenile. Being head of the neighborhood watch is not a fucking 007 license, and even Bond couldn't point-blank-execute minors without an unbelievably good reason -- hint: he has to do better than "the kid was really tall."

Quote:
This sheds an enormous amount of light onto why Zimmerman "profiled" Martin. First, Martin wasn't a local, he was visiting. Second, Martin was out, at night, in the rain, and according to Zimmerman had peered into one or two empty homes (many homes in the area were empty due to foreclosure). Third, he fit the profile of kids who had been committing crimes in the area. So, some of you who are flipping your shit over Zimmerman "stalking" Martin or whatever, you need to understand the background of the situation before you go making rush judgements.

I know this is a little-known fact in some parts of the States, but in check this out -- it is totally, perfectly legal to walk around at night while black. Even in the rain! I know, it's nuts, but they totally allow 'em to run loose after sundown outside of the deep, deep south.

Please describe the profile Martin fit when Zimmerman "profiled" him. I don't feel that this part of your argument is specific enough.

Quote:
Once you take his motivation out of the equation, the rest of these ridiculous theories begin to fall apart. Zimmerman's account of what happened matches up with the timeline of the 911 call. Zimmerman claims that he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from behind, said something to him, and attacked him. There is nothing in evidence to dispute that; in fact, it's far more likely than the account Martin's girlfriend gives. The most reliable witness to altercation saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. The cuts, bruises, and broken nose are all indicative of Zimmerman being pummeled by Martin.

You can't take his motivation out of the equation; it's a murder investigation, you don't get to make a decision based on only the simple or convenient parts of the evidence, because this case is not being tried in a trailer park in Oklahoma.

What, was that witness one of these witnesses? The ones who can't seem to keep their story straight when questioned twice, ten minutes apart? Maybe it was the one who went from "He was punching Zimmerman MMA style" to "maybe he just pinned him, and maybe Trayvon was the one calling for help, but he was definitely on top"? (I'm not even paraphrasing. Read the article.)

Quote:
Zimmerman claims he only shot Martin when Martin realized that Zimmerman had a gun and tried to grab it. Martin, who has been listed as anywhere between 6' and 6'3" (the latter by his own family) wasn't some little kid; Zimmerman had every right to be afraid for his life at that point, even if he did confront Martin. Again, there are no witnesses to the actual confrontation: no one, including Martin's girlfriend (who is as unreliable and biased as a witness can possibly be) knows for a fact whom confronted whom that night. We will literally never know what exactly happened, and the best we can go off is the evidence presented, which all points to Zimmerman telling the truth.

The "Stand Your Ground" Law does not protect you if you deliberately place yourself in peril of your own life, then kill someone to extricate yourself. Martin's girlfriend, for all her myriad faults, has at least not changed her entire goddamn story (so far -- I mean, she certainly fits the profile).

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Some of you really, really want this to be about race. This despite the fact that Zimmerman himself is a minority, that he has worked with young African Americans as a mentor, and that everyone who knows him says that he is not the least bit racist. Some of you have clearly made up your minds; I understand that, because when I first read the news reports, I thought the fact that he hadn't been arrested was some shady shit. But as we've seen more and more info come out, I've come to realize that the media totally screwed the pooch on this one, and did their best to paint a man as guilty without first waiting to find out what really happened.

Sometimes it's about race. You think minorities can't hate each other? Hell, introduce an Eritrean native and any other African native and see if they shake hands. And they're both black! Mind-blowing, I know. It's like America's not all there is or some shit, right??
The media doesn't decide this case. When a jury of his peers makes a decision, I'll abide by it. So far they haven't done that, so this is just a lively debate.

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I don't post here often anymore. But I do keep tabs on the board, especially on hot-button topics like this one. And it's very frustrating to see so many people I think of as educated and intelligent giving in to the same blind ridiculousness I see elsewhere. Knock it the fuck off. You sound just as retarded as the "birthers" I keep seeing post everywhere.

Aaaand, nothing there to fight.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:48 PM 
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I really did mean that "old times" thing, though. I do miss getting into the details, and you were always one of the more interesting participants.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:49 AM 
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Tranthas wrote:
Unless you're preparing to excuse either racism or vigilantism, I don't see anything that actually helps Zimmerman's case yet. Where are we going here? Remember this is not an assault case; this is murder, of an unarmed juvenile. Being head of the neighborhood watch is not a fucking 007 license, and even Bond couldn't point-blank-execute minors without an unbelievably good reason -- hint: he has to do better than "the kid was really tall."

You're jumping ahead of yourself. The point of motivation is that Zimmerman wasn't just looking to go after some black kid for no reason at all. He had good reason to be suspicious of Martin, for the reasons given.

Quote:
I know this is a little-known fact in some parts of the States, but in check this out -- it is totally, perfectly legal to walk around at night while black. Even in the rain! I know, it's nuts, but they totally allow 'em to run loose after sundown outside of the deep, deep south.

Please describe the profile Martin fit when Zimmerman "profiled" him. I don't feel that this part of your argument is specific enough.

I've already stated, Martin fit the profile of teens in the neighborhood who had been robbing and vandalizing residents there. Look it up for yourself, it's been reported on, just not widely. Was Martin innocent of it wrongdoing? At that point, absolutely. Was Zimmerman wrong for profiling him? No, because it was his experience that Martin's behavior was suspicious. You need to put yourself in his shoes, remembering that his community was literally living in fear, and he felt at least a little responsible for helping stop it. This is a man who gave his name and contact info to his neighbors in case something came up and they needed help. He hosted meetings, spoke with police often, and was extremely active in trying to combat what was a really bad situation.

Quote:
You can't take his motivation out of the equation; it's a murder investigation, you don't get to make a decision based on only the simple or convenient parts of the evidence, because this case is not being tried in a trailer park in Oklahoma.

Your're completely misjudging my statement. I've already pointed out that his motivation was an honest one. If you can't accept that as a possibility, if you instead choose to believe that Zimmerman stalked and then murdered a teenager out of pure spite or racial hatred, despite all evidence to the contrary, then there's really no point in discussing this further.

Quote:
The "Stand Your Ground" Law does not protect you if you deliberately place yourself in peril of your own life, then kill someone to extricate yourself. Martin's girlfriend, for all her myriad faults, has at least not changed her entire goddamn story (so far -- I mean, she certainly fits the profile).

So, Zimmerman should have allowed Martin to take his gun and kill him? I'm not sure what you expected him to do once he was on the ground, being pummeled. Once Martin tried to reach for his gun.

Do we have proof that Martin initiated the confrontation? No. Do we have proof that Martin tried to take Zimmerman's gun and kill him? No. What we do have is evidence that supports Zimmerman's other statements. His story fit the timeline of the 911 calls, as I mentioned before. The man was bloodied and bruised. Martin's knuckles had scrapes consistent with striking someone with a closed fist. It's in the autopsy report. Whether the witness remembers Martin punching Zimmerman or not, whether they remember even if Martin was on top, there is conclusive proof that it happened. PROOF. The rest of what is being presented is complete and utter conjecture.

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Sometimes it's about race.

And sometimes it isn't. Just because people want something really badly doesn't make it so. Just because there are people who want Zimmerman to be this monster who murdered an innocent teenager, doesn't mean he is. The evidence, both of the incident as well as Zimmerman's own history, doesn't support that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not laying the blame on Trayvon Martin, either. I understand his reactions just as much as I do Zimmerman's. I can understand him being scared, thinking that someone was going to hurt him. I understand him feeling like he had to attack first, if that's indeed what happened. There just wasn't going to be any good outcome to the situation once it became an altercation.

It sucks. It's tragic. And there's a 17-year-old kid dead, and another young man whose life is ruined forever, even if he's found innocent by a jury. The first was just minding his own business. The second was just trying to do the right thing. And shit happens. But trying to lay blame when there really isn't anyone at fault is stupid. Human behavior, perhaps, but still stupid.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:50 AM 
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Tranthas wrote:
I really did mean that "old times" thing, though. I do miss getting into the details, and you were always one of the more interesting participants.

I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm fully aware it might not be. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:20 PM 
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Tyral wrote:
Tranthas wrote:
I really did mean that "old times" thing, though. I do miss getting into the details, and you were always one of the more interesting participants.

I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm fully aware it might not be. :lol:


Just like the good ol'days.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:45 AM 
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Totally genuine compliment.

Now, back to the slugging:

Quote:
I've already stated, Martin fit the profile of teens in the neighborhood who had been robbing and vandalizing residents there. Look it up for yourself, it's been reported on, just not widely. Was Martin innocent of it wrongdoing? At that point, absolutely. Was Zimmerman wrong for profiling him? No, because it was his experience that Martin's behavior was suspicious.

Clarify this first sentence, please:

- The profile is "teens in the neighborhood who had been robbing", and Zimmerman decided he fit this profile? With what, his psychic powers?
- The profile is "teens in the neighborhood" and Zimmerman decided he fit this profile?

See, if Zimmerman didn't have evidence that Trayvon had robbed someone, and it wasn't a racial thing, then Zimmerman's entire profile was "teen in the neighborhood." If he pursued with deadly force based on this reasoning, he needs a life sentence at the very least, for the safety of the neighborhood. Also, dig up his backyard.

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You need to put yourself in his shoes, remembering that his community was literally living in fear, and he felt at least a little responsible for helping stop it. This is a man who gave his name and contact info to his neighbors in case something came up and they needed help. He hosted meetings, spoke with police often, and was extremely active in trying to combat what was a really bad situation.

No one had been killed. No one had even been attacked. No one had been an eyewitness to a crime! Living in fear of what, a stolen car? Some missing jewelry? What's a life worth to these people?

You do not "live in fear" from a string of robberies in which no one is even confronted, let alone injured, to an extent that comes close to justifying the act of pursuing a kid walking through the neighborhood, with a drawn pistol, after summoning police. You put professionals on it yourself! You only close at that point if your primary concern is that he'll get away -- not that he'll rob a house, and he had zero reason to believe that the mysterious Neighborhood Burglars were anything approaching a physical threat to anyone.

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Your're completely misjudging my statement. I've already pointed out that his motivation was an honest one. If you can't accept that as a possibility, if you instead choose to believe that Zimmerman stalked and then murdered a teenager out of pure spite or racial hatred, despite all evidence to the contrary, then there's really no point in discussing this further.

I don't think Zimmerman murdered a teenager out of pure spite or racial hatred. I think those could be factors, but you're leaving out overzealous vigilantism and megalomania as possible causes, when they're equally plausible. Awfully selective of you; you chose the least-defensible suspicions and pinned them on me to the exclusion of all else. There's also adrenaline and testosterone, but I've decided the burden isn't on me to come up with an exhaustive list.

Quote:
So, Zimmerman should have allowed Martin to take his gun and kill him? I'm not sure what you expected him to do once he was on the ground, being pummeled. Once Martin tried to reach for his gun.

Whoa! WHOA. Stop right there. Trayvon reached for his weapon? I'm Googling "Trayvon reached weapon" right now. Top results:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/alleged ... or-my-gun/
If you hurry, you can still catch the story about how the New Black Panthers delivered Obama into office on that site's Top Stories.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/georg ... gun-72106/
Don't miss the testimony of this Christian-but-totally-journalistic newsletter's star witness, a 13-year-old boy whose account is labeled "claims" in the article itself.
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimm ... im-details
Did you know Trayvon circled Zimmerman's car?

Quote:
Do we have proof that Martin initiated the confrontation? No.

Agreed.
Quote:
Do we have proof that Martin tried to take Zimmerman's gun and kill him? No.

Wait. One paragraph above, didn't you take... wasn't that the whole... nevermind. Moving on.
Quote:
What we do have is evidence that supports Zimmerman's other statements. His story fit the timeline of the 911 calls, as I mentioned before. The man was bloodied and bruised. Martin's knuckles had scrapes consistent with striking someone with a closed fist. It's in the autopsy report.

If you chased me down a street and cornered me with a pistol, I promise on my grandfather's grave they'd find my knuckle bones inside the gunman.
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Whether the witness remembers Martin punching Zimmerman or not, whether they remember even if Martin was on top, there is conclusive proof that it happened. PROOF. The rest of what is being presented is complete and utter conjecture.


Typing for five pages and then claiming there's proof isn't enough.

Present proof.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:37 AM 
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This is really the first time I've heard this portrayal of Zimmerman as this noble, selfless hero that the community begged to save them from the evil blacks.

I can't help but envision this movie trailer for a movie entitled, "THE ZIMMER MAN" about a heroic loner armed only with a bow and his finely-honed sense of profil...er...Justice. A small village appeals to this strange hero to protect them from the blac...er...ebony monsters that have been rampaging over the countryside and stealing televisio...er...children. Yes, they're stealing children.

I'm sure I could get Disney to make the film. After all, they did John Carter, right?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:03 AM 
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Tranthas wrote:
- The profile is "teens in the neighborhood who had been robbing", and Zimmerman decided he fit this profile? With what, his psychic powers?
- The profile is "teens in the neighborhood" and Zimmerman decided he fit this profile?

I get what you're implying here, but correlation does not equal causation. Just because race is involved in the profiling does not make Zimmerman racially motivated. Yes, part of the profile was "black." No, that doesn't mean Zimmerman was a racist. Especially as it was the behavior of Martin that Zimmerman specifically referred to when calling 911.

Quote:
You do not "live in fear" from a string of robberies in which no one is even confronted, let alone injured, to an extent that comes close to justifying the act of pursuing a kid walking through the neighborhood, with a drawn pistol, after summoning police.

I shouldn't have to do all the reading for you, but it's becoming apparent that you've not done any research on the neighborhood's recent history for yourself. It wasn't just burglaries of unoccupied homes. At least one home was broken into while a mother and her child were alone in the house. Coupled with an enormous increase in crime... well, to say that the people in that community couldn't possibly have been living in fear is just being deliberately ignorant of reality.

Also: drawn pistol? Where are you getting that detail from? Because I've not seen that stated anywhere. Unless, again, you're making an assumption based on a belief that you'd like to see upheld rather than on proof.

Quote:
I don't think Zimmerman murdered a teenager out of pure spite or racial hatred. I think those could be factors, but you're leaving out overzealous vigilantism and megalomania as possible causes, when they're equally plausible. Awfully selective of you; you chose the least-defensible suspicions and pinned them on me to the exclusion of all else. There's also adrenaline and testosterone, but I've decided the burden isn't on me to come up with an exhaustive list.

Correct. That burden is on the prosecution. And even then, nearly everything they could present as motivation is going to rely heavily on conjecture. The fact is, there is so much reasonable doubt about this case that it's hard to believe Zimmerman has been charged at all, except as a response to a public outcry that was uninformed to begin with.

Quote:
Whoa! WHOA. Stop right there. Trayvon reached for his weapon? I'm Googling "Trayvon reached weapon" right now. Top results:

I don't generally make a habit of reading weird, right-wing (or left-wing, for that matter) websites to get my news. When I make mention of Martin attempting to reach for the gun, it's because I've read it on a major news site. Specifically, I've read that Zimmerman's account of the incident describes Martin noticing the gun and attempting to grab it. I couldn't give you the link (and googling it didn't help). There's just too many articles on the topic and a lot of them don't have that kind of detail.

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If you chased me down a street and cornered me with a pistol, I promise on my grandfather's grave they'd find my knuckle bones inside the gunman.

Indeed. But you're assuming that's what happened. According to Zimmerman's statements, he had already lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted. So far there's been nothing put forward to dispute this account.

Quote:
Typing for five pages and then claiming there's proof isn't enough.

Present proof.

Again, I'm not going to do your reading for you. If you haven't seen the photos of the back of Zimmerman's head immediately after the incident, or his face the following day, or read the medical reports regarding his injuries, then of course you'd assume there is no proof. If you haven't read the articles describing Martin's autopsy and that injuries on his hands were consistent with him throwing punches, then again, you might assume there is no proof.

Bovinity Divinity wrote:
This is really the first time I've heard this portrayal of Zimmerman as this noble, selfless hero that the community begged to save them from the evil blacks.

Straw Man argument. Don't put words into my mouth. And, yet again, do some reading, please. I'm not making this shit up. His neighbors, including his black neighbors, all had great things to say about him and the work he was doing for his community.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:47 AM 
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But you're assuming that's what happened. According to Zimmerman's statements, he had already lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted. So far there's been nothing put forward to dispute this account.


Martin's girlfriend's account differs pretty strongly from that. Of course, you'll say that she's biased so we can't believe her, but somehow Zimmerman isn't. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:42 PM 
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You don't have to do my reading for you, but I don't have to cite your sources for you either. Telling me you totally read something "on a major news site" is worthless -- especially if you're unable to ever find it again.

Breaking into a home while people are home is evidence of only burglary. To presume that a person walking around outside is a threat to the neighborhood because he's a black kid, and a black kid broke into a house and then hurt no one this one time, is outrageous.

Let's assume for a moment that Trayvon did tackle the crazy armed person. Wouldn't you? I mean, he wasn't part of the Elite Neighborhood Watch Strike Team or anything noble like that, but if he sees a crazy asshole with a gun chasing people around the neighborhood, isn't he obligated to do something?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:48 PM 
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Again, I'm not going to do your reading for you. If you haven't seen the photos of the back of Zimmerman's head immediately after the incident, or his face the following day, or read the medical reports regarding his injuries, then of course you'd assume there is no proof.


Have you ever actually had your ass kicked? I mean, really beaten into the ground? Zimmerman looked like someone shoved him to the ground, or maybe got in a good punch that knocked him over. All this stuff about how Martin was just pummeling him, bashing his head on concrete, beating him to within an inch of his life, etc...just nonsense.

It doesn't take much to turn someone's face into a genuine cut up, swollen, bruised and bloody mess if you're landing good punches, Zimmerman just didn't look anything like that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:45 AM 
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But you're assuming that's what happened. According to Zimmerman's statements, he had already lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted. So far there's been nothing put forward to dispute this account.


Martin's girlfriend's account differs pretty strongly from that. Of course, you'll say that she's biased so we can't believe her, but somehow Zimmerman isn't. ;)

I'd say it's more an issue of credibility. But that's a personal opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 2:00 AM 
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Tranthas wrote:
Breaking into a home while people are home is evidence of only burglary. To presume that a person walking around outside is a threat to the neighborhood because he's a black kid, and a black kid broke into a house and then hurt no one this one time, is outrageous.

Let's assume for a moment that Trayvon did tackle the crazy armed person. Wouldn't you? I mean, he wasn't part of the Elite Neighborhood Watch Strike Team or anything noble like that, but if he sees a crazy asshole with a gun chasing people around the neighborhood, isn't he obligated to do something?

1. You keep downplaying the neighborhood's situation. It wasn't one break-in; there were dozens. And in every instance, witnesses reported seeing teenaged or young adult black males committing the crime. Again, you need to put yourself in his position and ask yourself what you would do. If you say you wouldn't call the cops or investigate more thoroughly, then yeah... we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

2. Crazy armed person? C'mon, dude.

3. I already said that I understood Martin's reaction. I am not in any way trying to blame him for the situation, though I do think that if he did indeed confront Zimmerman, then he is at least party at fault. But he was a kid, he was obviously scared, and probably not thinking it through. Whatever the case, I'm not trying to say Zimmerman is completely blameless (he isn't) nor am I saying Martin's death was his own fault (it's not). I'm saying that both of them contributed to it inadvertently. It seems to me that you believe Zimmerman's part was more deliberate; that he intentionally set out to kill an innocent, unarmed teenager. That's what I take issued with.

Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Have you ever actually had your ass kicked? I mean, really beaten into the ground? Zimmerman looked like someone shoved him to the ground, or maybe got in a good punch that knocked him over. All this stuff about how Martin was just pummeling him, bashing his head on concrete, beating him to within an inch of his life, etc...just nonsense.

It doesn't take much to turn someone's face into a genuine cut up, swollen, bruised and bloody mess if you're landing good punches, Zimmerman just didn't look anything like that.

Yes, I have. I've also been involved in MMA and other combat sports for a few years now; I'm pretty familiar with what someone's face looks like after an ass-kicking. And I'm not sure what photos you've seen, but Zimmerman had two black eyes and a broken nose, in addition to the cuts on the back of his head. That's an ass-kicking.

Regardless, that's not the point. Zimmerman didn't pull the gun and shoot Martin because he was getting his ass kicked. He told police that Martin tried to reach for his gun. Once that happened, all bets were off.

Oh, by the way, found the story on ABC News that had that particular bit of info:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin ... 8MwIdVYvLk

I've seen it elsewhere, but couldn't find the links and it doesn't seem to be reported on much. Not sure if that's a deliberate oversight by the media or if something has changed since that was originally reported.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:16 AM 
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1. You keep downplaying the neighborhood's situation. It wasn't one break-in; there were dozens. And in every instance, witnesses reported seeing teenaged or young adult black males committing the crime. Again, you need to put yourself in his position and ask yourself what you would do. If you say you wouldn't call the cops or investigate more thoroughly, then yeah... we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this.


Time to call bullshit! You don't seem to care enough to quote sources, but you are going to need one for me to believe "dozens of break-ins" where "in every instance, witnesses reported seeing teenaged or young adult black males committing the crime."

Quote:
It seems to me that you believe Zimmerman's part was more deliberate; that he intentionally set out to kill an innocent, unarmed teenager. That's what I take issued with.


I don't think anyone has said this here. I certainly don't think he went into the situation intending to kill someone. But he still committed murder. He had no reason to confront the kid in the first place. There is crime in lots of neighborhoods, but that doesn't give me the authority to confront any person who matches the gender, age, and race of reported eye-witness accounts of those crimes. If you lived in a larger city, that would mean you wouldn't even be able to walk to work without being hours late! Be all busy confrontin' and stuff. Represent.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:36 AM 
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Tyral wrote:
It wasn't one break-in; there were dozens. And in every instance, witnesses reported seeing teenaged or young adult black males committing the crime.


Dozens of cases and in every instance there where witnesses to the crimes yet they haven't arrested the black men's yet?

Come on, a break in take time if there is a witness odds are you will get caught. Maybe you are lucky and didn't but after a dozen with a witness in every instance there is something wrong if you are not caught yet... Unless you pulled that out of your ass or reporting what someone else did...

Most likely scenario:
Zim confront Trayvon for no other reason than being black
Trayvon respond with no respect
At this point Trayvon push Zim or Zim tries to grab Trayvon. We can't know for sure who did what, we have on one side someone who can't talk because hes dead or a guy saying it happened this way to defend himself from a murder charge. But hes more credible because hes a vigilan... I mean hes head of the neighbors watch super squad.
Fight ensue
Zim has a gun and shoot Trayvon

Maybe Trayvon did or did not tried to reach for the gun. Does it really mater when you are getting attacked by a guy with a gun? At wich point does Trayvon also have the luxury of playing the self defense card? Oh wait he can't because hes blac... because hes dead.

It's clearly a case of racial hatred. It's Zim's fault that kid is dead. If you carry a gun and start a confrontation with someone and that person ends up dead then it's your fault. I don't see why you try so hard to defend him unless you don't like black kids yourself...

Yes I said it. You are Racist Tyral.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:39 AM 
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PS: A murder without premeditation is still a murder...


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:51 AM 
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1. You keep downplaying the neighborhood's situation. It wasn't one break-in; there were dozens. And in every instance, witnesses reported seeing teenaged or young adult black males committing the crime. Again, you need to put yourself in his position and ask yourself what you would do. If you say you wouldn't call the cops or investigate more thoroughly, then yeah... we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

I won't rehash the complete lack of citation or evidence here, others did that just fine. I emphasized a section in bold, above, and that's what I'll respond to: Please point out where I said I wouldn't investigate or call the cops. I'll say right here that I wouldn't get my gun and go after him myself.

Quote:
2. Crazy armed person? C'mon, dude.

C'mon and what? Trayvon was a burglar for walking down the street, but chasing him down with a loaded pistol is a sane and measured response?

Quote:
3. I already said that I understood Martin's reaction. I am not in any way trying to blame him for the situation, though I do think that if he did indeed confront Zimmerman, then he is at least party at fault. But he was a kid, he was obviously scared, and probably not thinking it through. Whatever the case, I'm not trying to say Zimmerman is completely blameless (he isn't) nor am I saying Martin's death was his own fault (it's not). I'm saying that both of them contributed to it inadvertently. It seems to me that you believe Zimmerman's part was more deliberate; that he intentionally set out to kill an innocent, unarmed teenager. That's what I take issued with.

No, I think he intentionally set out to kill a guilty, unarmed teenager, which is what he believed Trayvon to be. A hoodie and dark skin are not enough to go round up the posse -- not even in a neighborhood where big-screen TV's are threatened, man.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:13 AM 
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For those of you questioning the authenticity of whether or not the neighborhood was having a regular occurrence of break-ins, here are some links.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/zimmerman-neighbor-rash-robberies-young-black-men-trayvon-145647987.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-03/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-burglaries_1_burglary-incidents-police-documents-black-males?_s=PM:JUSTICE


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:22 AM 
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8 Burglary in 15 months warrant a armed citizen patrol? Plus the kids that were doing them was already caught. Most likely the same kids did all of them, that usualy how it goes. Zim's probably said to himself damn nigger is ruining our lands because he was still angry the niggers tried to rob his stuff.
If anything this re-inforce to me that what Zim did was a hate crime...


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:39 AM 
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What evidence do you have that the guy is a racist?


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:42 PM 
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I don't know if he is I don't know him. This is what I think he is/happened I tought it was pretty clear. unless you are just trolling.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:13 PM 
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So in other words your opinions are just completely, totally random?


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:47 PM 
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Finlainea wrote:
Yes I said it. You are Racist Tyral.

See, when you end on this note, I don't even feel like responding. Except to tell you to go fuck yourself.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:53 PM 
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Tranthas wrote:
C'mon and what? Trayvon was a burglar for walking down the street, but chasing him down with a loaded pistol is a sane and measured response?

See, this is where I think we're on completely different pages. You seem to be under the impression that carrying a firearm is a big deal. Whereas I live in Arizona, where a really large chunk of the population carries firearms at all times. It's so commonplace here that the idea that Zimmerman had a gun isn't really what stands out to me at all.

Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that the firearm was drawn when he went to investigate Martin further. Is that correct? If so, why do you believe that to be the case? If not, why are you wording your responses as if you do believe that? No report I've seen has at any time related even the hint that Zimmerman had drawn his weapon prior to the confrontation.

It sounds to me as if you have an issue with the fact that Zimmerman was armed at all. If that's true, then I really don't see us agreeing on much of anything here. You're going to believe the big, evil man with the gun wanted to kill himself a black teenager, and there's nothing I or anyone else is going to say to change that.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:55 PM 
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joxur wrote:
So in other words your opinions are just completely, totally random?

This. Because, frankly, all these people screaming for Zimmerman's head are just talking out of their asses, stating what they "believe" happened or what they "believe" Zimmerman was thinking or intending. None of them have stated anything resembling fact that supports their "believsies," as Louis C.K. would put it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:10 PM 
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Tyral wrote:
Finlainea wrote:
Yes I said it. You are Racist Tyral.

See, when you end on this note, I don't even feel like responding. Except to tell you to go fuck yourself.

Truth hurt I guess...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:19 AM 
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Look, it all comes down to this.

Race aside, suspicions aside, vigilatism is illegal. Zimmerman is not a police officer; he has no authority to use force to subdue anyone, and in doing so he committed first aggravated assault, then assault with a deadly weapon. If he hadn't gone chasing Trayvon with stated intent to apprehend him, he might have an argument here -- but he did, so he doesn't.

Now Read section 2.

Zimmerman pursued a suspect with intent to apprehend him in direct contravention with the police dispatcher's instructions. He confronted Trayvon, irrefutably starting the encounter and escalating it by drawing his weapon -- no matter when he actually did so. Now Trayvon Martin is dead.

Zimmerman is guilty of felony murder, considered first-degree murder by Arizona law. The trial would take five minutes if it weren't so political. If he'd just let the police do their damn jobs, Trayvon Martin would be alive. Now he's not, and it's Zimmerman's fault, and all the wriggling and rationalizations are for nothing. George Zimmerman is a murderer, and he belongs in jail before he helps any more communities.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:04 AM 
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Man, I bet most of you get yourselves immediately disqualified from jury duty, after idk, probably the first question.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:40 AM 
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Wait a sec... under what facts do you assert that he intended to apprehend Martin?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:20 AM 
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Tranthas wrote:
If he hadn't gone chasing Trayvon with stated intent to apprehend him, he might have an argument here -- but he did, so he doesn't.

You're stating an intent here that isn't proven by the evidence.

Quote:
He confronted Trayvon, irrefutably starting the encounter

You say irrefutable, yet there is no evidence of that happening.

These appear to be the two arguments you're resting this on, and yet neither one of them is supported by any evidence we've seen so far. In essence, you're making shit up.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:20 AM 
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Zimmerman admits to following Trayvon, losing him, then going back to his car.

What is the purpose of following him in this situation?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:43 AM 
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These appear to be the two arguments you're resting this on, and yet neither one of them is supported by any evidence we've seen so far. In essence, you're making shit up.


There is support for those views, you just insist on calling them biased and dismissing them. Martin's girlfriends' account, for example, clearly suggests that Zimmerman did eventually find and confront Martin. But you just wave your hand and say, "Biased, Biased!"

What exactly do you guys believe happened, anyway? That Zimmerman just happened to be chillin' out around his neighborhood, carrying a gun for some reason, making an innocent 911 call about something and then OH NO LOOK OUT A BLACK DUDE CAME OUT OF NOWHERE and Zimmerman barely escaped with his life?

I mean, seriously, I'd like to hear what your version is and how it results in Zimmerman "obviously" going free.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:56 AM 
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I don't believe Zimmerman is totally without fault, I don't believe that Martin is totally without fault

I do believe noone will ever no exactly what happened that night, I believe that politics makes this like any other high profile case muddled, the police were inept from step 1 thru present, the Governor getting involved started the political BS that ensued and continues.

I believe in letting due process and legal system sort this out and not being biased in my views until such a time that a verdict is rendered, all appeals processes have been completed

and final outcome of guilty, not guilty, or charges dismissed.

then of course will be the wrongful death civil suits to follow but that's a whole nother slew posts on this topic not isn't it :usa2:


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:58 AM 
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and by no I mean know before the grammar squad slays me :bootyshake:


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:03 AM 
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I guess what bothers me so much about this case is that it just seems so easy to kill someone and walk away. If Zimmerman can just walk from a situation like this, then I guess anyone can just shoot anyone else as long as it's dark and no one knows what really happened, and maybe the shooter scuffs himself up a little.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 AM 
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and one follow up, who am I, or you or any of us to judge what this neighborhood felt after several crimes, it's a well documented fact that even a single break in, or other related crimes can trigger and have long lasting PTSD to individuals or communities, let along numerous crimes over a period of months, so yes I have no problem believing this or any other neighborhood could be living in fear.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:12 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
That Zimmerman just happened to be chillin' out around his neighborhood, carrying a gun for some reason, making an innocent 911 call about something and then OH NO LOOK OUT A BLACK DUDE CAME OUT OF NOWHERE and Zimmerman barely escaped with his life?


I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go, except for places where I am legally barred from carrying one.

Not everyone who carries a firearm is on the prowl for someone to shoot. Just throwing that out there.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:32 AM 
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I guess what bothers me so much about this case is that it just seems so easy to kill someone and walk away. If Zimmerman can just walk from a situation like this, then I guess anyone can just shoot anyone else as long as it's dark and no one knows what really happened, and maybe the shooter scuffs himself up a little.
You have a problem with it being difficult to convict someone of murder even if there is not sufficient evidence?

/boggle


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:59 AM 
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Vanamar wrote:
Zimmerman admits to following Trayvon, losing him, then going back to his car.

What is the purpose of following him in this situation?


He was on neighborhood watch, he saw someone a) he did not recognize and b) seemed suspicious so he followed him to see what he was doing.

If I were on a neighborhood watch I would have probably done the same thing, except from my car not on foot. I would have no intent on apprehending or holding whoever I was watching. I am sure that this is SOP for many neighborhood watch groups.

When I say "done the same" I'm meaning following and watching the person I found to be suspicious, calling 911 and reporting what I was seeing.

I understood that Zimmerman was on the phone with a 911 operator not a police dispatcher. 911 operators are not police.

And what does the Arizona legal definition of first degree murder have to do with a Florida case?

My opinion (and opinions are like...) of what happened:
1) Martin was in the neighborhood after recently smoking week.
2) Zimmerman saw Martin and thought he looked suspicious called 911 and followed Martin, on foot (the on foot part was the mistake in my opinion)
3) something happened here that we do not know
4) Martin saw Zimmerman following him, got pissed and wanted to confront him (confrontation was a mistake)
5) something happened here that we do not know
6) Martin and Zimmerman got into a fight, Zimmerman was taking a beating
7) Zimmerman's gun came into play and Martin was tragically killed. (Fatal mistake)

I do not think that Zimmerman should be charged with murder unless it can be proved that Zimmerman went out of his way to confront and provoke Martin (that might be what item three above is). If Martin was "bashing Zimmerman's head" or "reaching for Zimmerman's gun" then it could reasonably be a self defense, but only if Zimmerman did not provoke the attack.

If Zimmerman provoked the Martin to attack then Zim could be charged with Homicide and not the "Stand Your Ground" defense. If there were no provocation then the "Stand Your Ground" or Self Defense argument enters the picture.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:47 PM 
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Every neighborhood watch I or my family has been a part of has been explicitly told "report, do not pursue or approach", due to possible vigilantism and escalated situations.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:04 PM 
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there is a huge difference between pursue or approach and watch from a safe location.

Pursue and approach means confrontation. Watch and Follow means to not engage the person.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:58 PM 
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Zimmerman didn't "watch from a safe location" either, he was obviously in "pursuit and approach" mode, otherwise he would never have left his car.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:58 PM 
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Quote:
You have a problem with it being difficult to convict someone of murder even if there is not sufficient evidence?

/boggle


Yes, I have a problem with, "lol, I don't like Bob. I'll go shoot Bob and then confess, but claim he threw a punch at me or something, keke."


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:15 PM 
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Yes, I have a problem with, "lol, I don't like Bob. I'll go shoot Bob and then confess, but claim he threw a punch at me or something, keke."
That's a straw man. You didn't answer my question.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:44 PM 
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Zimmerman didn't "watch from a safe location" either, he was obviously in "pursuit and approach" mode, otherwise he would never have left his car.
If what you say is true, the part that i struggle with is... does that entitle Martin to attack Zimmerman? I mean... presumably, I can walk around and follow anyone on a public sidewalk/street that I damn well please. I can even verbally confront someone. Is that against the law? Does that entitle the other person to bash my face in?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:23 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
Zimmerman didn't "watch from a safe location" either, he was obviously in "pursuit and approach" mode, otherwise he would never have left his car.
If what you say is true, the part that i struggle with is... does that entitle Martin to attack Zimmerman? I mean... presumably, I can walk around and follow anyone on a public sidewalk/street that I damn well please. I can even verbally confront someone. Is that against the law? Does that entitle the other person to bash my face in?


I'm not sure about "entitles" -- It all depends on if Zimmerman had his gun in his hands or in his holster.

I'd certainly retaliate with force if it was me in the situation and Zimmerman had his gun out.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:48 PM 
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I'm not sure about "entitles" -- It all depends on if Zimmerman had his gun in his hands or in his holster.

I'd certainly retaliate with force if it was me in the situation and Zimmerman had his gun out.
You didn't answer my question. It seems an important one given your opinion on Zimmerman being guilty of murder.

Second... if someone is approaching you with a gun out you'd retaliate with force? That's... stupid. And I suspect empty bravado.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:07 PM 
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I never said murder, I said manslaughter ( at least ) - you have me confused with Tranthas. And yes, I did answer your question. *if* Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon with his gun drawn, I believe that Trayvon has a right to defend himself. If Zimmerman had his weapon holstered, then I do not believe that there was a credible threat, so attacking Zimmerman was not the right thing to do.

Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, in my opinion, because he escalated the situation beyond reasonable self defense. Murder requires intent. I don't know what his true motivation was.

As for force response, you can say what you want. The 21 foot rule is a wonderful thing, as is significant amounts of self defense training.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:35 PM 
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As for force response, you can say what you want. The 21 foot rule is a wonderful thing, as is significant amounts of self defense training.
The "21' rule" assumes that the person with the gun has it holstered, not drawn and being brandished as you hypothesize. If it's not empty bravado, it's certainly bravado, and stupid. If you have kids, it's sort of laughable that you'd risk your life to charge someone pointing a gun at you. Good for message board man-points, though.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:59 PM 
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Responding with force != charging at my attacker

Nice try though.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:01 PM 
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21 foot rule = charging at your attacker.


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