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| Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy http://www.lanysboard.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8872 |
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| Author: | Draconi [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:47 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
yes yes, the problem with all that is and this is where a big portion of Zimmerman's plea of not guilty by reason of self-defense, which is different than Stand Your Ground, is in both instances under florida law is ambiguous and flawed, and the defense and the judge in her directions to the jury, stated that under the law George Z could have NO injuries what so ever, and not have been faced with equal or deadly force and still be found not guilty by reason of self defense, as long the PERCEIVED threat was real and imminent danger of loss of life, limb or severe harm was POSSIBLE. unfortunately, in florida, as soon as Trayvon physically engaged Zimmerman, he put the prosecution behind the 8ball... the root of this not guilty verdict was in the way the state law is written as well as a prosecution team that couldn't have convicted Charles Manson, Ted Bundy or the Son of Sam with the case/evidence/witnesses it had. Which is why their is such a big push to review and reform state laws on Stand Your Ground and Self-Defense |
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| Author: | Bovinity Divinity [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:54 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Quote: unfortunately, in florida, as soon as Trayvon physically engaged Zimmerman, he put the prosecution behind the 8ball... With the facts and laws as they are, Trayvon didn't have to "confront" Zimmerman at all. Zimmerman could have walked up to Trayvon, gun drawn, and if Trayvon defended himself at all Zimmerman walks. (Or he walks even if Trayvon never laid a finger on him.) It's all messed up. =( |
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| Author: | Elessar [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:37 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Bovinity Divinity wrote: Quote: unfortunately, in florida, as soon as Trayvon physically engaged Zimmerman, he put the prosecution behind the 8ball... With the facts and laws as they are, Trayvon didn't have to "confront" Zimmerman at all. Zimmerman could have walked up to Trayvon, gun drawn, and if Trayvon defended himself at all Zimmerman walks. (Or he walks even if Trayvon never laid a finger on him.) It's all messed up. =( Except that's NOT how it works. In fact, having his gun drawn would very likely have invalidated his defense. Look, there's no doubt this man is an asshole, and it's a travesty Martin is dead. I'd very much liked to have seen Zimmerman be charged with negligent homicide, or manslaughter - crimes he'd very likely have been convicted for. As a rule, I don't think the laws here are at fault so much as overzealous, and poorly influenced, prosecution. |
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| Author: | Vanamar [ Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:49 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
The jury instructions included manslaughter as a possible guilty verdict also, but with no conditions like "negligent" |
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| Author: | Elessar [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:00 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Vanamar wrote: The jury instructions included manslaughter as a possible guilty verdict also, but with no conditions like "negligent" Correct. Had they brought initial lesser charges, he'd have been nailed to the wall according to the jury. |
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| Author: | Finlainea [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:37 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Thats the problem with the system right there. The jury can decide between X or Y but not Z because we didn't give them the option... |
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| Author: | Draconi [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:43 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
again its wasn't the system that failed, it was the prosecutors failure to use the system properly, they chose not to convene a grand jury which could have been presented the evidence and a list of charges that would be available including all the lesser charges mentioned, and then came back with 1 or more indictments on a number of charges. They instead chose to appoint a special prosecutor and she laid out the "bring the hammer down" political line and "were charging him with 2nd degree murder stance" and as has been highlighted they fucked themselves and any chance of a meaningful conviction. |
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| Author: | Finlainea [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:17 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
If you have to "use" the system then the system failed... I understand that's how works but it shouldn't have to work this way thats the whole point. |
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| Author: | Sarissa [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:07 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
If a prosecutor could add or modify charges on a whim, defending yourself in court would be exponentially more difficult. They shot for the moon and missed. The system worked exactly as it should have. |
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| Author: | joxur [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:56 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Maybe the lesson is... if you start bashing someone's head into concrete, make sure they don't have a gun. |
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| Author: | Bovinity Divinity [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:23 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Yeah, because Zimmerman clearly had injuries consistent with his head "repeatedly bashed against the concrete" despite even defense witnesses saying he didn't. |
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| Author: | joxur [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:57 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
What you just wrote is not true. |
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| Author: | Neesha the Necro [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:30 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
And you claiming that his head was repeatedly bashed in the concrete and that is why he was forced to shoot the kid is somehow true? lol |
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| Author: | Finlainea [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:40 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
It's not a kid it's a thug remember... |
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| Author: | Draconi [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:01 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
he was a kid, his lifestyle choices and the people he ran with and the trouble he had got into made him a very early on thug who was headed down a bad road. so yes he was a young kid and a young thug |
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| Author: | Bovinity Divinity [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:34 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Quote: he was a kid, his lifestyle choices and the people he ran with and the trouble he had got into made him a very early on thug who was headed down a bad road. so yes he was a young kid and a young thug I love the fantasies that the Zimmerman camp have created to try to make the shooting of an unarmed minor seem more palatable. |
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| Author: | Draconi [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:22 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
I'm not quoting or giving a shit about what Zimmerman's camp said, the facts were and are a matter of PUBLIC record, are that Martin had been suspended from school numerous times for various discretions, including fighting, possesion of drug paraphenilia he had been detained and or arrested before as had most of his closest friends or his circle, had a history of drug use ie not hard drug and had used drugs that day. The fact is I've been NEUTRAL on this case from my first post to the this one I never said spouted any propaganda from either side and the shit is piled high from both. He was a young kid whose life ended way to early, that's a fact, he was also a troubled kid or at the very least was headed down the path of troubled, that's also a fact based solely on public record and his actions, not his race, or media publications, or shit spouted from Zimmerman's camp I simply stated he was a kid and he was a thug or wanted to be or be seen as one. He wasn't the living large master of thugganomics that Zimmeran's team spouted, he also wasn't the innocent squeaky clean altar boy that his parents, prosecutors and family lawyers tried to make him sound. hell my D&D alignment was always Neutral, nuff said |
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| Author: | Bovinity Divinity [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:02 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Quote: the facts were and are a matter of PUBLIC record, are that Martin had been suspended from school numerous times for various discretions, including fighting, possesion of drug paraphenilia he had been detained and or arrested before as had most of his closest friends or his circle, had a history of drug use ie not hard drug and had used drugs that day. A teenager who got into a fight at school and used weed. Truly they broke the mold when they made him. |
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| Author: | Neesha the Necro [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Draconi wrote: Martin had been suspended from school numerous times for various discretions, including fighting, possesion of drug paraphenilia I know you're not picking a side here, just stating some "facts" but I'm sure many of us know tons of people from our high school days who have been guilty of the same things (suspensions, fighting, drugs, etc). I know I certainly do, and most of them are perfectly normal adults and now have families and real jobs and own houses and all sorts of other wacky stuff! |
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| Author: | Draconi [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:51 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
Agreed, I just don't see what's with the truth about both Zimmerman and Martin's character. again, making Martin out to be some straight A, honor student, altar boy with a glowing golden halo over his head, is just as wrong/bad/irresponsible as saying Zimmerman is Hitler/Genghis Khan/Satan all rolled into one, neither perception is accurate. |
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| Author: | Bovinity Divinity [ Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:48 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
It's more than just "stating facts" when you start going on about how he was a thug. At that point you're going beyond the facts and making a judgment based on how you interpret them. |
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| Author: | gwiber [ Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:08 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Db2byj74oY |
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| Author: | Azzi [ Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:47 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
If Zimmy could just be honest and say: "I'm a paranoid fuck with a gun, I profiled and followed this black kid, he started kicking my fat sad ass, so I shot him" If it wasn't fucked up Florida. He would have been charged with manslaughter and pleaded out to a lesser charge. Racism is so prevalent it was front page news for months. At the end of the day, it's a tragedy that a kid is dead, and a paranoid loser still has his guns. It does seem that the paranoid loser can't help but get into trouble, so it's only a matter of time before someone puts him down. (incarceration or dead) |
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| Author: | randy [ Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:17 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy |
gwiber wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DDb2byj74oY Thanks for linking that so I could see the comments. Fuck everyone. |
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