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Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
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Author:  Azzi [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Thoroughly sick and tired of people posting Zimmerman was justified in self defense.
Self defense and standing your ground is in your home protecting yourself and your family.

It is NOT a gung ho neighborhood WATCH guy who followed and confronted a black teen on a dark night and "possibly" got smacked in his dumb face for harassing him and then shot the kid. After reporting the stranger to the police he should have stayed in his damn car, not tried to be a fucking vigilante.

Gun advocates should distance themselves from this zero self esteem, afraid of everything loser, trying to exert control over others asshole. I'm truly hoping he pleads out to manslaughter and we don't all have to watch the racist circus that will come with a trial. Of course that's not likely to happen.

How about we focus on fixing the economy and jobs instead of some asshole from Florida?
Author:  Tranthas [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
The defense will not offer a plea bargain. The business opportunities arising from the publicity of this trial are enormous; his private-sector defense team will tell him what happens if he goes to jail, in graphic detail, and then they'll proceed with the trial in as public a fashion as possible -- because it got OJ acquitted, and after a trial like this, their office can charge several times what they do now, and still never be idle.
Author:  joxur [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:51 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I don't really see how the prosecution will win. As far as I can tell, witnesses have corroborated his story, and the huge gash on the back of his head does, as well.
Author:  Devyn [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I can see them getting a conviction, though it would depend on what "new evidence" the prosecution has.

Eyewitness accounts are all over the place on this case. One person saw Martin on Zimmerman beating him to a pulp. Another person saw Zimmerman on Martin doing the same. A third person saw a man wearing a white shirt (who doesn't exist) beating on another person. A fourth person saw a black man (who was dead at this time) standing over another person.

Obviously, we see why eyewitness accounts are virtually useless.

I think it's ultimately going to come down to who screamed for help, with a heavy reliance on the fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin against law enforcement advice along with Zimmerman's violent past.
Author:  Draconi [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
case is very sensationlized, but in all honesty, I see a whole lot more "reasonable doubt" in this case than I ever did in OJ's or Casey Anthony's cases.
Author:  Devyn [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I disagree. In the OJ and Casey cases, there was question regarding who committed the act. That is where the reasonable doubt came into play, and is the most important factor in any criminal case.

In the Zimmerman case, who did what is not in question. The only decision a jury would have to make is whether or not it was reasonable for Zimmerman to feel that his life or health were at grave risk when he shot Martin. Everything else would only change what they would find him guilty of, assuming that they did not feel that Zimmerman was in enough danger to warrant using deadly force.

Right now, I think that there are enough things that raise questions regarding Zimmerman's account that it warrants a trial. I'm hoping that the media succeeds at getting the records opened as required in Florida so that we find out what other, if any, facts there are regarding this case.
Author:  Tranthas [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
I don't really see how the prosecution will win. As far as I can tell, witnesses have corroborated his story, and the huge gash on the back of his head does, as well.
Did you see a gash? I saw a blur, from a still image drawn from low-res video. The article in which that was embedded even admitted that the image was inconclusive, but the best law enforcement could do.

Neither side has anything conclusive. It's going to be a political bloodbath in which both sides make the absolute most of a minimum of truth. Trayvon loses either way.
Author:  DarkOmen42 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Getting the race out of it would be a good start. But it's too good a political tool for some people.

The CNN producer that dicked around with the tape to make it sound like coon instead of punk needs his ass kicked. The ratings are too good to expect truth out of it I suppose.
Author:  joxur [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
NBC, not CNN.
Author:  DarkOmen42 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Not sure that it matters too much, but nice to know.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
Did you see a gash? I saw a blur, from a still image drawn from low-res video. The article in which that was embedded even admitted that the image was inconclusive, but the best law enforcement could do


Yeah, I've yet to see this "gash". I saw a very blurry video of the back of a bald dudes shiny head that - in one frame - had a shadow or something on one spot which isn't there in other frames. Not to mention that it's the most bloodless head gash ever, a supposed head wound that size would be a flood of red all over the place, as I'm sure anyone who has had even the smallest head wound would attest to.

In any case, lets assume there IS a gash. Everyone keeps talking about Zimmermans right of self defense, but what of Martin? If some stranger is persisting in pursuing you out in the open at night, and perhaps even confronts you with the tone of someone that obviously thinks you're a criminal and perhaps has even brandished a gun...why doesn't Martin get to feel threatened and defend himself?

Put simply, if someone attacks you and you defend yourself, do they then get to say, "Woah, I feel threatened now!" and shoot you?
Author:  krby71 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
we don't know what happened.

We don't know if Zimmerman chased Martin around or if Martin jumped Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost Martin.

Because there are too many people wanting to profit one way or another from this case, we will probably never know exactly what happened.

To present an opinion one way or another is ignoring that fact. Yes it is a shame that someone lost their life. It is a shame that it had become so politicized. If this were not an election year we probably wouldn't be hearing so much about this case. There are other bigger issues out there - exploding national debt, continued long-term unemployment, fragile dollar, oppressive gas and oil prices, and unstable economic outlook. These are the issues that we need to be focusing on. Let the law work in this case then get rilled up if the law or the process is broken.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
Let the law work in this case then get rilled up if the law or the process is broken.


Pretty sure that's what people have been doing already. If this case hadn't picked up so much media attention, Zimmerman would probably have never been arrested.
Author:  CakvalaSC [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:51 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
krby71 wrote:
we don't know what happened.

We don't know if Zimmerman chased Martin around or if Martin jumped Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost Martin.


We do know Zimmerman went after Martin because 911 Agent stated not to engage and Zimmerman stated he is going to take care of it himself. (Something along those lines), which the Agent stated again not to.
Author:  Vanamar [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
CakvalaSC wrote:
krby71 wrote:
we don't know what happened.

We don't know if Zimmerman chased Martin around or if Martin jumped Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost Martin.


We do know Zimmerman went after Martin because 911 Agent stated not to engage and Zimmerman stated he is going to take care of it himself. (Something along those lines), which the Agent stated again not to.


Not exactly true. The 911 operator (who isn't a LEO) said "You don't have to do that"
Author:  Tranthas [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Even if they waited until the "process of law is broken" to "get rilled [sic] up" -- that is, waited until the end of the trial to get bent out of shape -- whoever doesn't win will have an army of angry protesters at their back, either way.
Author:  krby71 [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
new photo released by ABC News. (if you don't like to see blood, don't look)

Image
Author:  joxur [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Yeah. This case will be very brief.
Author:  Fribur [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I sucks how easy it seems it is to get away with murder :(
Author:  Tranthas [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Did he change his shirt for that picture? How odd.
Author:  Draconi [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
wearing a jacket, at police station jacket is off in video
Author:  Tranthas [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
The station? Wait, they didn't photograph him at the scene? They let him change what he was wearing before taking evidence photos?
Author:  Draconi [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
taking off your jacket at police station isn't altering your appearance as far as any law I'm aware of.

I'm not making a judgement either way on this case yet, but he is innocent until proven guilty.
Author:  Vanamar [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:01 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
The picture posted in this thread looks to have been taken at the scene, as the collar resembles the red jacket/shirt thing he's wearing in the video from the police station.

The only difference is that there's no visible injury at the police station, which could be because the EMTs cleaned him up.
Author:  Worthy [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
White Hispanic is what the Media has called Zimm.
That is just an excuse to play the Race Card.
Does that make Obama a White Black Guy?

Zimm was in idiot to follow the kid when he was told not to. I do not think it was a Race thing tho, I think it was someone feeling Gung Ho and having a gun, thinking he was some sort of "Hero".

On the other hand, the parents are saying what a good boy Trayvon Martin was.

He had 2 known Twitter Handles, NO_LIMIT_NIGGA and “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″.

Quote:
Image

This image is the photograph the late Trayvon Martin used to represent his Twitter identity in late 2011, under the screen name "T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3." Although the Twitter account was deleted, The Daily Caller retrieved it from the social analytics website PeopleBrowsr. The upper-arm tattoo in the image matches one in a close-up photograph on Martin's MySpace page. (Image: Twitter)


Judging by some of his Tweets, he may not be as nice as his parents made him out to be.

Tweet info here for NO_LIMIT_NIGGA & T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3.

This in itself does not indicate any guilt on the kids part, but, just paints a little bit more of the picture. Zimmerman was way out of line playing cops and robbers, and, no matter how you look at it, this would not of happened if he had not followed him. For all we know, the kid got scared cuz some White Latino Guy with a gun was following him and he felt was defending HIMSELF.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Really sick of people and media outlets posting shit like this. Who cares if he gave the finger to a webcam or posted shit on twitter? How does that affect ANYTHING AT ALL about this situation? It's nothing more than pathetic attempts at character assassination to distract people.
Author:  joxur [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Bottom line is that if Martin was bashing his head into the concrete, Zimmerman will walk, as he should.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
Bottom line is that if Martin was bashing his head into the concrete, Zimmerman will walk, as he should.


Then how does anyone get convicted of murder at all? Everyone can kill anyone and the winning party just claims self-defense if the victim fought back at all?
Author:  joxur [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Well yeah. If there are no witnesses, and it's one person's word against a dead man's, what else is there? Convict them on your assumption of guilt? I'm sure people get off all the time that should not. Would you rather a guilty person go free or an innocent man go to jail?
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Wow. So if I want to murder someone I just have to make sure no one is around and claim self-defense? Damn.

Be right back, I have a lot of people to "take care of".
Author:  joxur [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
You didn't answer or respond to any of my points, you literally posted the same thing, worded differently.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
What point? Your only point is that if someone gets killed and no one saw it, we should just take the word of the killer at face value because maybe someone might get put in jail otherwise.
Author:  Vanamar [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
.... that's as invalid an argument as I've seen in years on this forum Bov. :P

If no one saw it, then there's no one to turn the guy in, so there's no investigation. You don't HAVE to plead self defense.

In THIS case, there are "eyewitnesses" (who's accounts are contradictory at best from what I can tell), along with Zimmerman's own 911 recording.

I personally think the guy is guilty of (at the very least) manslaughter, as he created the situation by getting out of his car and following Trayvon without any real probable cause (even if he HAD probable cause it would be irrelevant, since Zimmerman isn't a police officer)
Author:  Vanamar [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
And like it or not, that IS how our justice system works. It's ALL "he said/she said" or "he said/this other guy said something different" - That's why we have this whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing when it comes to prosecution.

(whether that's true in practice is left as an exercise for the reader)
Author:  Tranthas [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
I'm not making a judgement either way on this case yet, but he is innocent until proven guilty.

So is Trayvon.
Author:  Vanamar [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Didn't I say that I personally thought Zimmerman was guilty? And that he created a situation out of nothing?

Oh, look, I did. Imagine that.
Author:  Xantheus Diabolus [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
He didn't quote you, he quoted Draconi......
Author:  Vanamar [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Oh

Well then. Serves me right for not reading who he quoted.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
.... that's as invalid an argument as I've seen in years on this forum Bov. :P


What argument? I just repeated what Joxur said back to him, which was essentially, "If a crime is committed but no one saw it, we can't convict anyone."
Author:  Tranthas [ Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Not strictly true, but leveraged occasionally in cases where it's politically convenient. If a crime is committed but it can't be proven, no one gets convicted -- but that doesn't require an eyewitness unless someone dicking with the sytem makes it require one.
Author:  joxur [ Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
What argument? I just repeated what Joxur said back to him, which was essentially, "If a crime is committed but no one saw it, we can't convict anyone."
That's not what I said.
Author:  SurcamStances [ Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
It's amazing to me that there are so many pro Zimmerman people. Is it about race? Of course. Is it all about race? No. Is Zimmerman racist? Fuck if I know.

I do know that a 17 year old kid was walking along talking to his girlfriend on his cell, with some tea, and some skittles. I know that a grown fucking man was following this kid for "looking suspicious". I know that there is a 911 tape where you can clearly hear bloodcurdling screams for help from Trayvon.

Do you think it would have taken anything more than for Zimmeran to flash his gun to end any confrontation with Travyon? I don't give a fuck about the race. The screams would for help would be just as bloodcurdling to me if it were any fucking teenager of any fucking race. It's a travesty.

Grown fucking man with a firearm following an unarmed teenage boy. Some people say set the grown fucking man free. Really? Are you fucking kidding me?
Author:  SurcamStances [ Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Author:  Tranthas [ Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
That recording is cut to ribbons.
Author:  Neesha the Necro [ Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
SurcamStances wrote:
Grown fucking man with a firearm following an unarmed teenage boy. Some people say set the grown fucking man free. Really? Are you fucking kidding me?

That's because some people are just fucking stupid.
Author:  joxur [ Wed May 16, 2012 7:27 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/16/justice/f ... index.html

Quote:
A medical report by George Zimmerman's family doctor shows the neighborhood watch volunteer was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of the head after his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.
Author:  Larreth [ Wed May 16, 2012 8:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I have an entire scenario as to what went down in my head, mostly because I've been in a VERY similar situation...minus the handgun.

Judging how aggressive and angry he was on the 911 call and how pissed he seemed to be at being "thwarted" in his attempt to catch the shady kid that "looked like he was on drugs or something" I'm thinking he followed the kid, confronted him and told him the cops were on the way. When the kid attempted to leave Zimmerman still in "I R Neighborhood watch Police man" mode grabbed him and tried to "detain" him and a scuffle ensued. My guess is that Zimmerman pulled his gun very early on and Trayvon then began fighting for his life, believing himself to be under attack. This, to me, explains Trayvon yelling for help because he was fighting to subdue Zimmerman, while believing his life is at risk with the gun. Zimmerman shot him during this because at that point he *was* defending himself from a situation he created...and and already had the gun out.

This story of "I peacefully turned around and walked back to my car and he chased me back to my car and began pounding my head on the concrete, and then suddenly noticed i had a gun....(while still using both hands to pound his head on the ground...in the dark) so I shot him"

I believe he was defending himself....but not in a legally defined "self defense" argument kind of way. I think he started something he couldn't finish that got WAY more out of hand than he intended, and he panic reacted by shooting this kid.
Author:  krby71 [ Wed May 16, 2012 9:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
The who called for help is probably something that we will never know for certain.

We do know that a young man was killed.
We do know that the man that shot him was harmed (broken nose, black eyes, back injury, and lacerations to the back of his skull.

We don't know what the trigger was.

We do know that politicians (on all sides) are blowing this up for their own gain, for various and often unconnected reasons.

I wish that we could hear all the evidence and have an opportunity to rationally process what can be proven. I am afraid that regardless the outcome there will be a huge backlash and we could see something like the Rodney King LA riots.
Author:  Neesha the Necro [ Wed May 16, 2012 12:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I sure hope so. I could use a new blender.
Author:  joxur [ Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Probably a perfect storm of shit circumstances.

The nieghborhood in question had been burglarized several times
Author:  Xantheus Diabolus [ Wed May 16, 2012 8:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
So the neighborhood had been burglarized. Being in a neighborhood that has been burglarized is not against the law. If Trayvon was burglarizing a house, Zimmerman had reason to stop him. Walking through a neighborhood is not reason enough to harass someone.
Author:  Tranthas [ Thu May 17, 2012 4:47 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
We do know that the man that shot him was harmed (broken nose, black eyes, back injury, and lacerations to the back of his skull.
We don't know any of those things. In accepting that report, we are asked to accept that Zimmerman's broken nose and black eyes somehow escaped police attention during his initial examination, and then a local doctor discovered all these injuries. Bullshit.
Author:  Draconi [ Thu May 17, 2012 5:41 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Well its been stated that the police bungled numerous aspects of this case
as in they took a total of 1 photos of Zimmerman at the crime scene, on a cell phone that was forgotten about for days until the officers found it and turned it into investigators.

police report does mention his bloody nose, and large gash on back of his head.

Again I'm not coming down on either side of this case, too much grey for me, I'm steering as clear of it as I can in most discussions.

I will say I expect a plea bargain to a much much lesser charge to be hashed out, prosecutors I believe do not want this to go to a trial under any circumstances, and most prosecution and defense pundits say the exact same thing
Author:  joxur [ Thu May 17, 2012 7:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/f ... index.html

Image

All of the actual evidence points to an acquittal.
Author:  Xantheus Diabolus [ Thu May 17, 2012 7:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Is he going to be aquitted? Probably.

Is he guilty of murder? Probably.

Dead men tell no tales..... (Rather convenient for Mr. Zimmerman, if you ask me)
Author:  Devyn [ Thu May 17, 2012 9:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
I'd like to know what the medical examiner considers "intermediate range" for the shot that killed Trayvon. I don't see how that could have happened if Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him, it would have been point-blank or at least a close range shot.
Author:  krby71 [ Fri May 18, 2012 1:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
the medical report that said Martin had THC in his system said that the shot was from less than 18" away
Author:  Devyn [ Fri May 18, 2012 6:57 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
That's what I get for not waiting for more detailed reports to come out. Zimmerman is almost definitely going to be found not guilty, assuming it makes it to trial in the first place.
Author:  joxur [ Fri May 18, 2012 7:05 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Witness at time said he saw Trayvon straddling Zimmerman, punching him "mma-style".
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Fri May 18, 2012 11:33 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sick of the self defense argument for Zimmy
Quote:
Witness at time said he saw Trayvon straddling Zimmerman, punching him "mma-style".


If we take that as true (there's been several conflicting witness reports, for example another witness says that she heard a fight, but that the fight ended long before the gunshot) it still doesn't mean that he gets to just shoot the guy and get away with it.
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