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Seattle Cop punches Teen
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Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
rugen wrote:
Quote:
You can be the big rebel and all that.


See? I can play too. It is very easy to simplify the other side down to the most dismissive stance possible. This board is a painful exercise in it almost daily. At the end of the day, you have a point (don't assault cops unless you want to tango) and I have a point (I'm not going to just blindly do whatever a cop says, when I know they are asking for something they have no right to ask). It has nothing to do with rebellion or sheep. Just different levels of what sort of intrusion into our rights as citizens of this nation we are willing to tolerate in our own lives by the authority figures we may or may not trust.
I think the moral of the story is to choose your battles. If a cop pulled me over and asked me to get out of the car without reason, I would ask him why. If he got nasty, I would comply. I would hold my hands out and move slowly. Then, you have to play it by ear. If he asks to search the car, I would refuse politely (although they can if they have "probable cause"). If he asks me to sign anything or do anything I dont' want to, I would refuse politely. If the cop is being completely unreasonable I would sit down and say, "I have nothing to say." If he chose to arrest me, I would comply. When the whole ordeal is over, I would do everything I could to go after him. BUt - I certainly wouldn't do anything that could backfire on me.

Bottom line is that getting nasty back will almost always result in you losing. Pick the time of your battle.
Author:  rugen [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Eh, I'll answer that because it is a reasonable question and not just more bovitroll.

Quote:
What are people doing where they're constantly dealing with the po-po?


The last time I spoke to an officer had to be like 10-11 years go? And that was a seat belt ticket where I told the officer exactly why he had pulled me over and wished him a good day as he handed me the ticket. You are mistaking the idea of being prepared for a bad officer experience with constant interaction with cops.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
What are people doing where they're constantly dealing with the po-po?


Orme approached it from the other way, and was nicer about it I guess, but that's all I was getting at before, too. =P

Quote:
The last time I spoke to an officer had to be like 10-11 years go? And that was a seat belt ticket where I told the officer exactly why he had pulled me over and wished him a good day as he handed me the ticket. You are mistaking the idea of being prepared for a bad officer experience with constant interaction with cops.


I think it's more a matter of people mistaking the constant talk about it with constant interaction with cops.
Author:  rugen [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
Bottom line is that getting nasty back will almost always result in you losing. Pick the time of your battle.


You are actually describing pretty clearly some of the stuff I am talking about. Bovinity is the one confusing the issue with his attempt to paint me as someone incapable of viewing a police officer without screaming "fuck you". Which is kinda funny, given I have helped develop software for some of them here in Texas. >_<

Another example would be that I know the 4 reasons why a cop could search my home without a warrant. If one showed up on my doorstep tomorrow and asked to search it, I'd refuse unless he presented a warrant and I am perfectly within my rights to. I wouldn't invite a random stranger into my home to go through my shit, I'm not going to change that fact just because that random stranger happens to own a badge. All the "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you shouldn't care and invite him in" stuff is, quite frankly, bullshit....but if you are comfortable doing it, more power to you. I won't.

The one exception is that I won't back down from a bad cop. I realize what that means and I am perfectly prepared for what potentially comes next in that scenario. I also realize not everyone would make that same choice and hopefully I won't have to again.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
Bovinity is the one confusing the issue with his attempt to paint me as someone incapable of viewing a police officer without screaming "fuck you".


I never said anything close to that. The one mistake I made was saying the bit about "calling out" a cop "every time" you see one. Every other statement was pretty mellow, you simply chose to get defensive about them.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
To drive the point home... I remember some grandma getting tased and I actually found a couple videos on YouTube of people being tased for speeding tickets. I think this is a good lesson on how not to fight the power... I didn't realize you had to sign a ticket... must be a state-by-state thing. I googled it - seems you don't have to sign it, but then you could be taken into custody. Seems overkill, but here's the detail:
http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/traffic_law/refuse_ticker.htmNot sure how factual that is, but it seems to make sense.

Either way - if I didn't want to sign, I would not sign. However, I sure as hell would not dare the cop to tase me. And, I certainly would not walk away without permission - both leading to legitimate charges of resisting arrest. Again, cops are put in a tough spot - do you let the person just leave? Or, do you forcibly restrain them. If the person is smart, they just comply and get arrested - then fight it. You're much better off saying "I was arrested without cause" than trying to defend assaulting an officer, resisting arrest, etc.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
In the second clip, the cop was polite for the first few moments until the guy started being a dick.

Cop comes up says, "how ya doing? You were going kinda fast."

The guy starts arguing about it and refuses to give his license/registration (which the cop is within his rights to request). Of course... the cop could just arrest him there for driving without a license.

This really is a great example of how to put a good cop in a bad situation and get your ass kicked. THis guy was real fucking tough until he got his stupid ass tased.
Author:  rugen [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
This really is a great example of how to put a good cop in a bad situation and get your ass kicked.


Which is why you don't do that. And why I am on the cop's side in the video that sparked this discussion. When you've done something wrong, you take your slap on the wrist and move on.
Author:  Vanamar [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
Vanamar wrote:
"Don't Be A Dick" is one of the rules I live my life by (now...), it hasn't stopped 90% of police I've interacted with from not being dicks anyway.

However, there are lots of issues with law enforcement in Metro Atlanta (mostly out in the burbs) not knowing (or not caring) about the laws they're supposed to be enforcing. Once hiring/education/training standards for policemen in Georgia are up to par, I'll stop complaining about them.
In all seriousness... are you interacting with cops a lot? In the last 15 years of my life, I think I've been pulled over 3 times, gotten 2 warnings, and 1 ticket. Other than that... I don't think I've even spoken to a cop. Wait... there was one time I called them because a random car was parked in my driveway. They were nice.

What are people doing where they're constantly dealing with the po-po?


I've probably had to deal with the cops more than most people on these forums, in one fashion or another. I'll admit I'm probably a statistical outlier in that regard.

In 15 or so police interactions since I was a teenager, the cop was doing his job properly in two of them. The rest were either improper terry stops or outright harrassment.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
With all due respect, I just don't buy it. First off, remember that Terry Stops were deemed legal :)

Second, when I was a teenager, we would loiter and dick off at places we shouldn't. On occasion a cop would come to scoot us along, we would leave, and the cop would say "don't come back." The whole time, we were up to no good. We weren't looking to stick up a joint like the people in the Terry case were, but we were just a general nuisance. Half the fun was irritating the cops. Had one of them gotten nasty with us, we would have pussed out and done "yes sir, no sir".

ANyhoo.... I just don't get it, and I just don't buy that most cops are dicks. I think there are a lot of wannabee tough guys, but I think the vast majority of cops are good people who try to do a good job, but expect a little more respect than they're due. When they get disrespected, some probably go far... but if your life was constantly at risk, wouldn't you be a little edgy?
Author:  Fribur [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
I'm still wondering where anyone said "most cops are dicks."
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
I'm still wondering where anyone said "most cops are dicks."


I don't think anyone said it outright.

But every time - and you can choose to not own this if you want, guys - the topic of cops comes up, there are a few people that just have to start in about how they won't give up their rights, they won't let some cop push them around, they won't fold to some asshole cop, they'll be ready when some cops come to take advantage of them, etc.

You don't have to come out and say, "Cops are dicks" when you talk like that. It's pretty much implied that your thought process is leaning that way.
Author:  Vanamar [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
With all due respect, I just don't buy it. First off, remember that Terry Stops were deemed legal :)


Under certain circumstances, specifically only if the officer has "reasonable, articulable suspicion"

Specifically in my case, I've been stopped simply for the act of carrying a firearm in a legal fashion, in places where carrying a firearm is perfectly legal, simply because I was carrying a firearm. There is no "reasonable, articulable suspicion" in this case. No crime is being committed, and the officer had no reason to believe that there was.

Being threatened with arrest when complying perfectly with the law, on more than one occasion, begins to grate on ones nerves quickly.

<prepares asbestos suit for incoming fire from the anti-gun folks here>
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Fribur wrote:
I'm still wondering where anyone said "most cops are dicks."


Vanamar wrote:
In 15 or so police interactions since I was a teenager, the cop was doing his job properly in two of them. The rest were either improper terry stops or outright harrassment.

Vanamar is saying that in his life 13 out of 15 interactions with the police were situations where the cop was not doing his job properly - basically harrassing him. I would interpret this as "most cops are dicks"... or at least 13 in 15 are incompetent employees who harass people without cause.

I think "dick" has a better ring to it.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Vanamar wrote:
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
With all due respect, I just don't buy it. First off, remember that Terry Stops were deemed legal :)
Under certain circumstances, specifically only if the officer has "reasonable, articulable suspicion"

Specifically in my case, I've been stopped simply for the act of carrying a firearm in a legal fashion, in places where carrying a firearm is perfectly legal, simply because I was carrying a firearm. There is no "reasonable, articulable suspicion" in this case. No crime is being committed, and the officer had no reason to believe that there was.
I'm pro-gun and would have to understand the situation. Walking around with a visible firearm, even if legal, can be cause for suspicion. If a cop sees you and says, "hey, you have your papers for that?" and you get all indignant, then I dunno. If you say, "yeah, you need to see 'em", probably changes the tone. I don't know the situation, but in my experience, I've just never had a problem when I've been polite.

I got pulled over in Arkansas with an out of state license plate, wrecked front left with a busted headlight and speeding. Cop pulls me over, says "you were moving through here pretty quick. Not up to anything I need to care about" or something to that effect. I said, "no sir, sorry, just working for the summer and want to get home."

He then asks to search the car, basically wondering if I am smuggling drugs. I say, "if I say yes and you don't find anything, can I have a warning for the speeding?"

He wasn't amused, but I let him look through the trunk and check things out. He let me know. This was 15 years ago... but I gotta imagine things would still go that way.

If he had pulled me over for no good reason and was an ass, I would have reacted different. But, if he wanted he could have given me a couple citations and probably impounded the car. But, by just being a little polite and letting him know he was in charge, I got off without a ticket.

For the record - if you drive a shitty car, are nice to the cops, and say, "I'm really sorry", they generally won't write you a ticket.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
*he let me know* should be *he let me go*
Author:  Neesha the Necro [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Vanamar wrote:
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
With all due respect, I just don't buy it. First off, remember that Terry Stops were deemed legal :)


Under certain circumstances, specifically only if the officer has "reasonable, articulable suspicion"

Specifically in my case, I've been stopped simply for the act of carrying a firearm in a legal fashion, in places where carrying a firearm is perfectly legal, simply because I was carrying a firearm. There is no "reasonable, articulable suspicion" in this case. No crime is being committed, and the officer had no reason to believe that there was.

Being threatened with arrest when complying perfectly with the law, on more than one occasion, begins to grate on ones nerves quickly.

<prepares asbestos suit for incoming fire from the anti-gun folks here>

In other words, any time a cop sees a person carrying a firearm, he should just assume that the person with said firearm has a permit and the cop should just go about his business. This thread gets better and better with all the insanity within.
Author:  Nananea [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Yeah sorry Van, unless it was the same cop like 3 days later in the same town, they had very good reason to stop you.
Author:  Vanamar [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Neesha the Necro wrote:
In other words, any time a cop sees a person carrying a firearm, he should just assume that the person with said firearm has a permit and the cop should just go about his business. This thread gets better and better with all the insanity within.


If he'd asked if I had a permit, that would have been different. Hell, I'd even show it to them (even though under Georgia law I'm not required to)

But that's not how the encounters went. I've been approached by an officer with his weapon already drawn. I've been told to put my hands on my head and I've been frisked, I've even been "detained" (zip strips aren't comfy) while the officer ran my information, and I've been approached by an officer who's immediately expecting trouble (you can tell, because their holster is unsnapped and their right hand is resting on their pistol grip).

I'm not counting traffic stops in those 15 encounters, nor the two traffic accidents I've been in. In those situations, police have been nothing but polite and doing their job properly. I'm talking solely walking down the street, obeying the law and not causing any trouble.
Author:  Vanamar [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Nananea wrote:
Yeah sorry Van, unless it was the same cop like 3 days later in the same town, they had very good reason to stop you.


Why? Carrying a firearm is *legal* in Georgia (and many other jurisdictions) -- unless they have suspicion that I'm actually committing a crime, why should/would they stop *anyone*?
Author:  Vanamar [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
My point is this -- some police officers, perhaps even a significant minority, have started assuming that everyone they approach or speak to is a criminal, and treats them like that. This has all occurred in the last say, 20, maybe 30 years.

Police shouldn't assume that you (or anyone else) is a criminal, unless they have a *reason* to do so.

There's no reason to be a dick to cops, and I don't think *all* cops are dicks -- I've just drawn the short straw in the cop lotto every time I've had dealings with them outside of traffic incidents it seems, and it's given me a bad taste in my mouth about cops in general.
Author:  Drajeck [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:52 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Because if 999 out of a 1,000 people carrying a visable firearm are legal and mean no harm, that means every 1,000th time the cop potentially gets shot. I wouldn't like those odds if I were an officer and I'd approach anyone with a firearm with extra caution too.
Author:  Bovinity Divinity [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
Because if 999 out of a 1,000 people carrying a visable firearm are legal and mean no harm, that means every 1,000th time the cop potentially gets shot. I wouldn't like those odds if I were an officer and I'd approach anyone with a firearm with extra caution too.


Not to mention that we're very results-oriented as a society. If that cop sees you with a gun and does nothing and you shoot up a Starbucks, he becomes a pariah for "not taking action" and all that.

Besides, I think folks in love with guns often forget the effect they can have on people. Legal or not, you walk around toting a gun in plain sight and people ARE going to react. It's not reasonable to act offended every time, honestly.
Author:  DarkOmen42 [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Seriously, who the fuck walks around with a holstered weapon exposed to everyone WITHOUT a permit? Is anyone begging for trouble THAT badly that you have to be approached with weapon drawn?
Author:  Venen [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
Vanamar is saying that in his life 13 out of 15 interactions with the police were situations where the cop was not doing his job properly - basically harrassing him. I would interpret this as "most cops are dicks"... or at least 13 in 15 are incompetent employees who harass people without cause.

I think "dick" has a better ring to it.


I don't get it. How do you get there from here?

Just because you have bad experiences with a bunch of cops means that you judge all(or "most", in this instance) cops based on your experiences? I guess maybe if it was a random sampling, but I doubt most of us move from city to city enough to get that broad of an assessment. If Vanamar has been in Atlanta for a good chunk of his life, I wouldn't be too surprised if he had a lot of bad encounters with cops there. Other cities, from what I've heard, have a similar amount of bad cops.

I just don't get the leap from "I've had bad encounters with cops" to "obviously by my saying that, I must think most cops are dicks!".
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
He claims 85% of all cops he has seen in action are incompent and harass people. Not sure how many different interpretations there are of that statement.
Author:  Venen [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
I completely agree with that statement. I don't see how someone could possibly interpret one's personal experience in a relatively confined area to be a declaration about the whole.
Author:  Vanamar [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
He claims 85% of all cops he has seen in action are incompent and harass people. Not sure how many different interpretations there are of that statement.


Incorrect.

Try to assess my statement again. I'll give you two shots at getting it correct.
Author:  Orme, a Singing Bard [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Quote:
In 15 or so police interactions since I was a teenager, the cop was doing his job properly in two of them. The rest were either improper terry stops or outright harrassment.
86.667% of encounters. Sorry.
Author:  Vanamar [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Nope.

I'm saying *I've* had bad experiences with police. Enough to where I'm distrustful of them. I don't think that all cops are dicks.
Author:  Neesha the Necro [ Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Cop punches Teen
Noted. Move along.
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