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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:32 AM 
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I figured I would start this thread since so many of you brush off HS Athletics as a waist of time. Please prove me wrong...

Here are some statistics and information for the nay-Sayers about HS Athletics and how they don't contribute to an athletes life after school.

In 2004, the NCAA studied a group of regular students and student-athletes who graduated from high school in 1994 - ten years earlier. Of that group, 88 percent of all student athletes had graduated in the 10-year window, 21 percent had obtained advanced degrees and 91 percent were employed in full-time jobs. All those numbers were higher than their classmates who were not student-athletes.

According to the latest NCAA Graduation Success Rate 2009 Data, 79 percent of freshmen student-athletes who entered college in 2002 earned their four-year degrees, matching last year’s rate. The average GSR for the last four graduating classes is 79 percent, one percentage point higher than last year.

Student-athletes in Division I - graduate on average at a higher rate than the general student body, according to data gathered by the federal government. Student-athletes graduate at a rate of 63 percent not including transfer students, one point better than all other students.

Participation in high school athletics and activities are a much better indicator of overall college performance than other yardsticks. -Educational Testing Service and College Board Study

Nearly seven of ten Americans say high school sports teach students lessons about life they can't learn in a classroom. Nine in ten believe sports contribute to health and fitness. -USA Today

Extracurricular participation is a school's best predictor of an adult's success. -"Fu@llingLives - Paths to Maturity and Success, " by Douglas H. Health, based on a 40-year survey

The one yardstick to predict "success" in later life (self satisfaction and participation in a variety of community activities two years after college) is achievement in school activities. Not useful as predictors are high school or college grades, or high ACT scores. -American College Testing Sewice (ACT)

Athletes do better in the classroom, are more involved in school activity programs, and stay involved in the community after graduation. High school athletic participation has a positive educational and social impact on many minority and female students. Based on an analysis of data Collected from the U.S. Department of Education' s High School and Beyond Study, girls receive as many benefits from sports as boys, the "dumb jock" stereotype is a myth, sports involvement was significantly related to lower dropout rates in some school and are more socially involved than non-athletes. -Women's Sport Foundation

Ninety-five percent of Fortune 500 executives participated in school activities (only 47% were National Honor Society members). - Fortune Magazine

High school athletes have higher grades and lower dropout rates and attend college more than non-athletes. -Women's Sports Foundation Survey

Student-athletes have a higher grade-point average than the average student and are absent from school less. -Minnesota State High School League

Students who do not participate in sports average a 2.39 GPA. Those who participate in one sport average a 2.61 GPA and those in two sports average a GPA of 2.82 GPA. -Iowa High School Athletic Association

Ninety-six percent of dropouts in 14 school districts in seven regions of the nation were NOT participating in activities programs. -National Federation of
State High School Associations

High activity students {those involved in four or more activities) average 3.05 GPA, while "low activity" students averaged 2.54 GPA. -Indiana University Study

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 AM 
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I don't think anyone thinks high school sports are a waste (not waist) of time, I think it's more of a case of people laughing at you living vicariously through your son's life and acting like he's God's gift to football (and now the daughter is God's gift to music, how convenient). Don't get me wrong, I applaud your interest in your son's activities and I hope he does succeed, and I understand your enthusiasm. I just think you often come across as a douche when you constantly bring up the topic. Maybe he is the next Michael Oher, who knows?

I just don't understand why you think it's necessary, as an adult, to constantly try to compare dick sizes (metaphorically) in your arguments. I know absolutely zero about Indiana high school football, but I'd venture a guess that it is not as competitive or as big as Texas high school football - especially if you are referring to a private school. How many teams actually compete in the division? And I have known plenty of people who we viewed as 'can't miss' who never did shit in college, so success at one level certainly doesn't equal success at another.

I almost worry for you if your dreams of your son becoming an NFL superstar don't pan out. Will you be able to handle it?


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:57 AM 
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That's the third time this week you have used the word "waist" when you should have used the word "waste." I don't usually harp on grammar issues, but this one is irking me, especially when you are trying to espouse the educational value of sports :p .


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:12 AM 
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I want to point out too that many of those statistics refer to "student activities" or "extra-curricular activities" and not just sports, which includes a HUGE array of things that happen at a school. It even includes music programs!

I also want to point out that I haven't seen anyone say that high school sports is a waste of time. I have said three times now that I'm happy for you and your program. You seem to think you are under this huge attack, when you simply aren't. I have never said football is a bad thing, only that your program isn't as famous as you think it is. I still stand by this statement. I also think that sports often lead kids to false hopes about their ability to make a living doing that sport. This isn't the fault of the sport as much as the over-hyped nature of sports in our culture.

I did enjoy your statistics. I could use many of them to advocate my music program too. As you might guess, there's a wealth of research suggesting the benefits of music education as well. One that surprised me from the music world is this (paraphrased off the top of my head):

When studying the backgrounds of students who have made it into medical graduate schools, a higher percentage of students with music degrees were accepted into medical schools than any other major. Yes, a higher percentage than even biology or pre-med students.

Anyway, I could make large lists of music benefits too, but I don't feel the need to in order to justify myself here. The reality is, most of the time the football coach and myself are on the same team at my school; we're not competing with each other. We both want to see each other succeed. We both recognize the benefits of our activities. We even meet to coordinate practice schedules so students can do football and marching band at te same time. You do not appear to see it in the same collaborative way.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:26 AM 
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Seems like both of you guys are very insecure about your respective areas of expertise. Why so much justification?


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:08 AM 
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It's also worth noting, on many of those little tidbits, that we should remember the old "correlation does not imply causation" line.

Take this one, for example:

Quote:
Ninety-six percent of dropouts in 14 school districts in seven regions of the nation were NOT participating in activities programs. -National Federation of
State High School Associations


Does this mean that not participating in activites makes you a dropout, or that pushing a potential dropout into an activity will instantly make them not drop out?

Of course not. It most likely just means that a kid who is interested enough to enroll in extra activities in the first place is also interested enough to not drop out.

The same goes for the points about GPA. Again, it stands to reason that a child interested enough in school to willingly participate in extra activies will also be interested enough to apply themselves in school. Does it mean that you'll have a bad GPA if you don't do activities, or that a child with a low GPA will suddenly turn around if his mom signs him up for Chess Club? Probably not.

And then there's this one:

Quote:
Nearly seven of ten Americans say high school sports teach students lessons about life they can't learn in a classroom. Nine in ten believe sports contribute to health and fitness. -USA Today


Huh? So you took a survey of peoples opinions on a vague and poorly defined question? Cool, we can put it on Family Feud I guess.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:51 AM 
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I think it's more of a case of people laughing at you living vicariously through your son's life and acting like he's God's gift to football (and now the daughter is God's gift to music, how convenient).


I never said or even implied either child was "Gods Gift" to football or music. How you gleaned that from anything I said is boggling. In fact I believe the only thing I said about either was "Will my son make it? Who knows. He has the grades, size & speed and is already listed on several scouting sites as a prospect for 2012 so who knows." when talking about scholarships. & "You now have me looking for something for my daughter who doesn't play sports but was chosen to play the violin in North Central's Symphony Orchestra next year as a freshman". I said that because Fribur, being involved in what he is, probably knows the reputation of North Central's music program as their Orchestra is the reining state champs.

I am not sorry for being proud of what my kids are a part of and for doing all I can to help them and hundreds of other kids like them. If you think it's dick waving, then go ahead and think it. Let me ask you a question. What do you do to help other people's kids? Do you coach, volunteer as a teachers assistant or you one of those parents who just shoves their kids on a bus? Fribur knows the value of involved parents and I hope for your kids sake, if you have any that you step up and do for them even half of what I do for others kids.

I guess maybe me and those like me should just step back and not do anything more than feed,cloth and house our off-spring and let life gobble them up.

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but I'd venture a guess that it is not as competitive or as big as Texas high school football - especially if you are referring to a private school. How many teams actually compete in the division? And I have known plenty of people who we viewed as 'can't miss' who never did shit in college, so success at one level certainly doesn't equal success at another.


Of course it's not as big as Texas, only a few states are. Indiana has an All-In tournament vs Div. Leaders advancing in the post season. Since we are a Parochial school, we are not in a Division so we can play whomever we want both in and out of state. The only limitations are the miles we can travel to play.

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I almost worry for you if your dreams of your son becoming an NFL superstar don't pan out. Will you be able to handle it?


Please, don't worry about me, I am fine. I have no illusions about him going to the NFL and I don't know where you even got that notion from. The only comment I made about him was in the context of getting a scholarship. Apparently you just skimmed over that and as usual pulled something out of your ass and chose to believe it.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:07 AM 
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Out of curiosity, if you are not in a division of some sort, how do you win State Championships?


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:36 AM 
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Out of curiosity, if you are not in a division of some sort, how do you win State Championships?


Notre Dame isn't in a division either. You can not be in a division and still make the playoff system.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:48 AM 
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You'll find that participation in extra-curricular activities is more an effect of the parents income/education level than it is a cause of anything else. You'll also find that the variance between the type of activities kids participate in and their eventual outcomes as far as salary and education levels is huge. For example kids that play a musical instrument are on the extreme high end whereas kids that play football are actually below average.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 AM 
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5 class system.
Up to 64 teams per class based on school enrollment size.
40 Sectionals with Up to 8 teams per sectional. Assigned sectional is based on north/south geographic locations.
Winners from each sectional advance to regionals again divided by north and south.
Semistate- Top two from North and top 2 from south play
State - North champion and South champion play

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:54 AM 
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For example kids that play a musical instrument are on the extreme high end whereas kids that play football are actually below average.


That's a pretty grandiose statement . Links to the data please.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:55 AM 
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I suppose the wording is misleading. In Texas, we have school districts and a bigger division. So my former high school is in District 16-5A or something, comprised of like 6-8 schools. There are other Districts that all play in the same playoffs at the end of the season. So if there is no 'District' that Khan's school is a part of, but they still play in the playoffs, I was wondering how many schools they competed against. Also, are there different sizes or does everyone just play everyone? We have 5-A, 4-A, etc. 5-A are the large schools. 4-A are the smaller schools, and so on, all the way down to schools that play 8 on 8 football.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:56 AM 
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Never mind, Khan answered.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:52 PM 
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Yeah and though not a resident of Texas , stationed here atm and the amount of number bullshitting that schools do on enrollment to stay in class 4A when then should be in 5A and so forth etc, 3A when they should be 4A, and on down the line, pretty easy to dominate your district like my son's high school does when his school really is a 5A size and the other 7 teams are truly 4A size.

A little off topic but texas high athletics have me a bit peeved, I've coached, football and baseball from pop warner all the way up to babe ruth repsectively in each sport and everything in between, I won't do it on a middle school or high school level, too much politics I get enough of that at work :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:21 PM 
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Not to mention the recruiting involved for top schools like Katy & The Planos.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:55 PM 
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Quote:
That's a pretty grandiose statement . Links to the data please.


That particular portion you quoted might be a bit extreme, but I think Kitiari's general statement that kids who participate in extra-curricular activities tend to come from backgrounds where they have less to worry about at home rings of some truth. Perhaps participation in sports for younger kids is more the effect rather than the cause, and subsequent success off the field thereafter.

Not really an excuse per say, but that may be a general trend that kids end up working with. Obviously people can pick themselves up from their bootstraps and make themselves into a success, regardless of most situations, but the trend will still exist for an average situation.

Oh and also, is it actual school-sponsored athletics that are making these kids succeed more often? Or is it, as I suspect, merely the superior mind-body connection that comes with active lifestyles? For all it matters, it could just as easily be kids that work out on a daily basis as opposed to participating in any sports. Learning teamplay matters, but I'm unconvinced that it's the sole reason for academic success here.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:31 PM 
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Quote from other thread - still related...
xkhanx wrote:
I don't think anyone on here said anything about treating it like like that. Not treating it as a viable option if your kid has the size, strength, speed and ability to compete is what is foolish.
Here's my point, as succinctly as possible:

Give parents the choice: 4 year letterman or 4.0? A sad number would choose 4 year letterman, and that's dumm.

And to recap, I just hate dickface parents who live (and brag) through their kids. Of course, when Baby Bard gets here, maybe I can be that dickface.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:32 AM 
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The information I provided was from my own research based on data from 40k individuals. I work at a Canadian university and the data is based on Canadian citizens so the result could vary between the US. Involvement in extra-curricular activities and financial success later in life is highly correlated with the background of the parents. Kids of wealthy educated parents tend to end up wealthy and educated.

Poor kids rarely learn to play an instrument. You can run through the list of extra-curricular activities based on the cost of involvement and then look at the outcomes of those who participate. The results of those who participate in high cost activities are higher on average than those who participate in lower cost activities and much higher than those who don't participate in anything. I would argue that this is just an effect of their parents. Wealthy parents have wealthy kids, wealthy parents can put their kids in high cost activities.

What I am not trying to do is downplay the positive aspects of extra-curricular activities, quite the opposite. It's not as simple as saying if your parents are wealthy you will be wealthy. It's about opportunities that parents can provide their kids that help them develop and gain the skills necessary to succeed later in life. For example, kids that are involved in team sports learn structure, discipline and gain social skills that will benefit them in the future.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:50 AM 
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Personally I would say the single most important thing is the parents participation. If your kid is in sports you simply have to be involved in thier life. This is reflected in thier performance. The same goes for music. I know I end up driving all over gods green earth all year round to get my kid from one thing to another and that he has to know what is going on when to help me stay organized.

I remember talking to one woman who had 4 kids (2boys and 2 girls) all honors students and in sports. I asked what the key was for her. She replied that if you love your kids and are involved in thier lives you are already doing more than 90 percent of parents. The rest is easy.

To sum up - kids in extracurricular stuff means parents are involved in their life.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:14 AM 
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Agreed.

We have played IPS teams who had less people in the stands than players on the field. What else do parents have to do that is more important on a Friday night than support their kids.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:45 AM 
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gettin drunk


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:50 AM 
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Great post, Guurn. I agree - it's the most challenging but extremely important. My 6 year old is in soccer and about to start piano lessons and follow-up with some advanced swim lessons. It's going to get trickier when my 3 year old gets a bit older and we will have to split up to make the games.

Still, sitting on the sidelines while my son does what I did when I was his age is pretty much all the reward I need.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:59 AM 
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Jesus Jox, don't say too much. You will be chastised for bragging about how your kid is the next Pele or Frédéric Chopin.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:49 AM 
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Quote:
What else do parents have to do that is more important on a Friday night than support their kids.


Horde raids.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:47 PM 
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I'm not even sure where to jump in to this thread. As far as kids in high school activities do well, and kids that aren't tend to not. There are many outside factors that play in to whether kids are in or out of high school activies, and many can relate to whether they even get to attend college or not. One example would be low income IPS kids vs say oh Bishop Chatard kids. Lots of IPS kids have parents that work crazy hours and can't take them places or pick them up, or don't have the money to pay for the activity, or the kid has to have a job, or can't stay after school because they have to watch their siblings so their parents can work, or you name it, there's a reason(s) that cant be over come. While Bishop Chatard parents pay... http://www.bishopchatard.org/Business/TuitionRates.pdf and probably don't have too many problems to over come to get their kids to things and in to things. Also don't forget having your kid in these activities prior to high school, and the cost/time associated. Not too many kids jump in to a sport, or pick up an instrument in high school, though it can happen.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:40 AM 
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As far as picking up an instrument in high school, you are correct; that doesn't often happen. At my school we are trying something to address that: next year I will be teaching a beginning band class specifically tailored to kids brand new to their instruments. We have 15 students signed up so far... should be interesting!


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:40 AM 
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I have no idea if it has changed, but the school system I went to only started you out on instruments in the fifth grade. If you didn't start then, you would need to get private lessons to get up to the level of everyone else. It sucked for us, because that was the year that my dad was unemployed and we couldn't afford the rental (to reinforce the point about wealth/education and afterschool type stuff). Soccer and basketball was a lot cheaper, so we did that instead.

Luckily I was able to get involved with drama club and the literary magazine in high school. Those two things were what kept me engaged in the classroom portion of the day.

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