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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:22 PM 
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Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees


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On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.

Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.

"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."

The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.

"They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said.

The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense."

"I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.'

"I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American."

The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school dp not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt.



This pissed me off most about this hole thing
Quote:
"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."


I would have loved to say your in the USA not Mexico, if you were in Mexico then your statement would mean something.
What the hell is wrong with people?

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:53 PM 
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Would anyone care if someone wore a Mexican bandana on the 4th of July? Maybe I live too far from the border to see how heated this topic is in states closer to Mexico?


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:58 PM 
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Would anyone care if someone wore a Mexican bandana on the 4th of July? Maybe I live too far from the border to see how heated this topic is in states closer to Mexico?


I wouldn't care. I probably wouldn't even notice.

That's what amazes me most...the fact that people even notice this sort of stuff. Are they just really bored?


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:56 PM 
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Although I can not in any way prove it, I guarantee that if the five kids who did this were all friends and not just random kids who go to the same school, it was absolutely done on purpose to be edgy and/or racist. And if that was the case, fuck those kids they shouldn't be in school.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:22 PM 
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randy wrote:
Although I can not in any way prove it, I guarantee that if the five kids who did this were all friends and not just random kids who go to the same school, it was absolutely done on purpose to be edgy and/or racist. And if that was the case, fuck those kids they shouldn't be in school.


If these kids just did it to insight the American-Mexicans, then I would agree but it sounds like they always ware the bandannas and shirts.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:24 PM 
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Well, teenagers being teenagers, it's also likely that they weren't just "sitting there quietly" with the flag shirts/bandandas on.

But that's just speculation. Can pretty much ignore it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:53 PM 
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When I was in school, we weren't allowed to wear American flags on our clothing.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:31 PM 
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randy wrote:
Although I can not in any way prove it, I guarantee that if the five kids who did this were all friends and not just random kids who go to the same school, it was absolutely done on purpose to be edgy and/or racist. And if that was the case, fuck those kids they shouldn't be in school.


I'm going with this one. They just happened to be wearing flag clothes....all 4 of them. They all happened to be sitting together wearing these flag clothes in a school with a bunch of Mexican American students on cinco de mayo.

While I'm totally for curtailing the illegal immigration it's this not so subtle racial barbs I don't like. They knew what they were doing...the faculty knew what they were doing and yet they put on these shocked and innocent faces "oh be we are proud Americans...blah blah" when they are called on it.

It would be no different if 4 friends decided to wear shirts from a popular band that happened to have nooses on them on Martin Luther King day...Oh but it's just a band we all happen to like and all happened to wear it today....*gasp gasp*

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:39 PM 
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Assuming they were doing nothing else but wearing these shirts (which is all we can assume, given the information given to us) where do we draw the line on this, then? Who gets to decide when and were you get to be patriotic?

Do we take down all the american flags on Cinco de Mayo because the hispanics might be offended?

If it was a school policy beforehand (like Neesha was talking about) that they can't wear that stuff then fine. That's ok. But if it's really ONLY because of a mexican holiday and ONLY because some hispanics decided they were offended...I don't know, that's just too much. Are you really going to come to the United States and then say you're offended by our flag?


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:17 PM 
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Quote:
When I was in school, we weren't allowed to wear American flags on our clothing.


You should have called the ACLU. Or gotten a Union Jack T. They really are much cooler.

Quote:
If it was a school policy beforehand (like Neesha was talking about) that they can't wear that stuff then fine. That's ok.


Wow, you mean if it was a rule beforehand then they should adhere to it ??

Your views certainly revolve around convenience don't they.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:53 PM 
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Not wearing that shirt is not a rule based on sexual bigotry (unlike banning same sex couples from coming to prom). Seems consistent to me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:49 PM 
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Quote:
It would be no different if 4 friends decided to wear shirts from a popular band that happened to have nooses on them on Martin Luther King day...Oh but it's just a band we all happen to like and all happened to wear it today....*gasp gasp*


I see a huge difference between those 2 examples, the american flag is not a symbol of hate and is something every american should be proud of. I would actually expect to see american and mexican flags for Cinco de Mayo parades, wouldn't you want to celebrate your heritage along with the country you live in now? I've never been to one or seen one, but I've been to Irish heritage parades and both flags were around. Maybe that just isn't as controversial since there arn't the same current tensions with Irish immigrants.

Even if the boys did plan it and wanted it to be insulting (which I still don't understand), wearing a flag bandana is the kind of offensive I can live with in this world.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:07 PM 
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Good thing none of these kids had mexican parents or anything... oh wait a minute...

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:19 PM 
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Drajeck wrote:

I see a huge difference between those 2 examples, the american flag is not a symbol of hate and is something every american should be proud of.


as American's we can be proud, there are many many other people that do see the US flag as a symbol of hate. These pukes that are complaing about things like this are just a few.

Drajeck wrote:
I would actually expect to see american and mexican flags for Cinco de Mayo parades, wouldn't you want to celebrate your heritage along with the country you live in now?
But they have been told the US is evil and should be hated why they keep coming here is beyond me.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:32 AM 
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But they have been told the US is evil and should be hated why they keep coming here is beyond me.


source?


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:22 AM 
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:44 AM 
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Quote:
Not wearing that shirt is not a rule based on sexual bigotry (unlike banning same sex couples from coming to prom). Seems consistent to me.


Oh, so as long as it's a gay/black/Hispanic/{insert anyone here who isn't straight & white} who might not like it then the rule is ok?

Denial of first amendment rights based on the presumption that someone of a different ethnic background would be offended without any prior evidence to support the claim is bullshit.

From the judges findings in the Constance McMillen with her name and circumstances replaced with boys and theirs.

Quote:
The record shows the boys have been openly American since birth and they intended to communicate a message by wearing a flag t-shirt/bandanna to express their identity through attending school with others in the same attire. The Court finds this expression and communication of their viewpoint is the type of speech that falls squarely within the purview of the First Amendment.


Fits in there pretty neatly I think...

Here is the judges ruling unedited, typos are his not mine...

The record shows Constance has been qpenly gay since eighth grade and she intended to, communicate a message by wearing a tuxedo apd to express her identity through attending prom with a same-sex date. The Court finds this exipression and communication of her viewpoint is the type of speech that falls squarely within th¢ purview of the First Amendment.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:00 AM 
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Quote:
Not wearing that shirt is not a rule based on sexual bigotry (unlike banning same sex couples from coming to prom). Seems consistent to me.


Neither was the one that McMillen challenged. If you had read anything other than headlines you would know that the 20yr old rule was in place to keep boys and girls from bringing people to the prom who were of legal age to buy alcohol. Which had been an issue prior to the rules origination. It had nothing to do with sexual orientation at its inception. Try reading the original reasoning behind the rule instead of just assuming.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:04 AM 
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Hit post by mistake..

...assuming everyone since the dawn of time has been a gay-bashing-fag-hater.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:11 AM 
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Quote:
The record shows Constance has been qpenly gay since eighth grade and she intended to, communicate a message by wearing a tuxedo apd to express her identity through attending prom with a same-sex date. The Court finds this exipression and communication of her viewpoint is the type of speech that falls squarely within th¢ purview of the First Amendment.
When put like that, I'm not sure how you can argue the wearing of the shirt is much different. If it's free speech as this judge asserts, are we saying that free speech is only protected when we agree with it?

The shirt thing doesn't really fall into a common sense rule, like wearing an openly racist shirt or one with a picture of a giant cock. Drawing a correlation based on an assumption of the kids' intent is a pretty big grey area.

It's possible to think that these kids are stupid and being provocative without punishing them or infringing on their ability to express themselves in a peaceful, reasonable manner.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:31 AM 
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:08 PM 
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Quote:
If you had read anything other than headlines you would know that the 20yr old rule was in place to keep boys and girls from bringing people to the prom who were of legal age to buy alcohol.


I simply don't buy it. I simply cannot come up with a scenerio where having a same sex date makes it more likely for a student to purchase alcohol than opposite sex date. It was to deny gays the chance to be there. That's it. My highschool has the same rule. I guarantee, it's for the same reason.

We're in the process of removing that rule, by the say, but that's another matter.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:55 PM 
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Reach, Khan! Reeeeeeeach!


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:06 PM 
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Then that is your choice not to "buy it". We don't know the real reason it was adopted 20yrs ago and I am sure when the case comes to a real trial and not a hearing, they will have substantiated proof of what happened 20yrs ago that made them adopt the rule.

On a side note, I can't believe your school, the winner of the "Ultimate Prom" has that rule in place. Not very progressive there Frib. The High School I coach at is a VERY well known Catholic School in Indiana and we don't have a rule like that. "OMG, The Fag-Hating Catholics don't even disallow same sex dates to the prom! How can this be?!?!?!?!?!"

Maybe someone should call the Good Ol' ACLU on your school the day before your ultimate prom and let them know what kind of bigots and backwoods hicks you all are...

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:50 PM 
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Pretty sure Frib said previously that he lives in a pretty conservative area. I think it's in the south too, could be wrong. When you live amongst idiots, progressive change is not easy to come by =/


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:06 PM 
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Only Khan would equate a dress code with discrimination against gays.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 6:53 AM 
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Khan, you are so far gone on the lesbian thing it's mind boggling.

Anyone: "I support the law against murder".
Khan: "HAH! You support pre-existing laws, so you are a hypocrite for not support pre-existing bigoted laws."

Wowser. Just say fuck-it. Nobody is going to queer you up by existing.

As for the shirt stuff...

1. If the kids wore the shirts on Cinco de Mayo out of the blue as an organized effort, they don't need put in jail. They need a *gasp* mature adults to say "hey, this really isn't necessary, swap out the shirts. It's like wearing a "have safe sex" shirt the day after a class mate dies of AIDS (even if they normally wear those shirts). Illegal? not really. Tasteless and disruptive - yes. Have a little class.

2. If a bunch of latinos wore "Go Mexico" shirts on the 4th of July, the same should happen. Of course, in that case the ACLU would probably get involved. *gasp* Life's not always fair and consistent. Majorities have the most power, and the pendulum sometimes swing to over-protect minorities. I'm fine with that considering I'm "the man" and get the majority of breaks in this country.

Is this shit relaly that hard?


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:03 AM 
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I'm fine with that considering I'm "the man" and get the majority of breaks in this country


What? No, haven't you heard about the "Angry, forgotten, middle class white male" demographic?

I laugh every time I hear that. Yeah, we're really being held down. ><


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:42 AM 
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Random, semi-amusing story. I belong to some various professional and academic organizations. I was invited to a photo shoot for one to do some publicity materials. It was funny, there was a black woman, an Indian male, a latin female and an African male. I couldn't help but say, "Hurrah, I'm the guy keeping you all down!"


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:52 AM 
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randy wrote:
Although I can not in any way prove it, I guarantee that if the five kids who did this were all friends and not just random kids who go to the same school, it was absolutely done on purpose to be edgy and/or racist.


This, but these kids were doing it in a way they should have gotten away with. The offense needed to be their actions/words, not their patriotic shirt.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:07 AM 
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Then that is your choice not to "buy it". We don't know the real reason it was adopted 20yrs ago and I am sure when the case comes to a real trial and not a hearing, they will have substantiated proof of what happened 20yrs ago that made them adopt the rule.


Wait.... we don't know the real reason? I thought you just told me it was to somehow limit alcohol consumption? I'm confused. Oh wait I remember. That reason is complete bullshit and now you are backpedaling because it actually took someone challenging it on a message board before you realized it.

Quote:
On a side note, I can't believe your school, the winner of the "Ultimate Prom" has that rule in place. Not very progressive there Frib. The High School I coach at is a VERY well known Catholic School in Indiana and we don't have a rule like that. "OMG, The Fag-Hating Catholics don't even disallow same sex dates to the prom! How can this be?!?!?!?!?!"

Maybe someone should call the Good Ol' ACLU on your school the day before your ultimate prom and let them know what kind of bigots and backwoods hicks you all are...


Are you trying to hurt my feelings somehow? I'm trying to figure out what point you are trying to make here. Yes, my school's rule on that subject IS bigoted. It IS filled with backwoods hicks just like you, and it IS wrong that it is that way. What exactly are you trying to say again?

Next year, our only openly gay student intends to try to purchase a prom ticket for himself and his boyfriend. I've already stated on these boards that I will be supporting him if it comes to a fight. If necessary, I'll be happy to call the ACLU on his behalf, although the principal has already started the process of removing the rule without such drastic action.

Now again, what point exactly are you trying to make? That my school is full of people like you? You are right; it is, and it's a sad thing. But hey... it's Indiana. What can you do?

And BTW... your "well known" high school really isn't. Sorry to break it to ya. Carmel HS is well known in Indiana. Perhaps Avon. Yours is just another high school just like mine, except yours also teaches kids that there's a magical being in the sky that will provide for them if they refrain from meat on Fridays.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:33 AM 
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The gloves.

They are off.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:37 AM 
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I was in the mood :p


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:47 PM 
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Wait.... we don't know the real reason? I thought you just told me it was to somehow limit alcohol consumption? I'm confused. Oh wait I remember. That reason is complete bullshit and now you are backpedaling because it actually took someone challenging it on a message board before you realized it.


Nice try. Previously I stated the reason the administration gave in court. Is it the real reason? It is up to them to prove.

Quote:
And BTW... your "well known" high school really isn't. Sorry to break it to ya. Carmel HS is well known in Indiana. Perhaps Avon. Yours is just another high school just like mine, except yours also teaches kids that there's a magical being in the sky that will provide for them if they refrain from meat on Fridays.


Again nice try. Carmel and Avon? Carmel yes. Avon hardly. I agree though, your school is pretty much unheard of and is pretty much a non-competitor in most sports. But you are wrong on my schools notoriety. Multiple State championships in practically every sport, Network televised games, we are invited to play at east 1 game every season in the old dome/Lucas oil. Ask anyone what schools are a perennial athletic powerhouses in Indiana and we are always listed in the top 10. Oh and before you start spewing your bullshit about academics vs sports. We whip your ass there as well I am sure. 98% Graduation rate with 95% of graduating students going on to college with numerous athletes going on D1/D2 scholarships.

Enjoy your obscurity.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:07 PM 
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:52 PM 
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Would everyone be OK with me saying, "fuck anyone who thinks high school sports mean anything?"

I got conned into a long term sub on a bowling team where I have to listen to two jerk-offs talk about their stupid kid's sports all night, trying to indirectly one-up each other. So this is as much an indirect rant at them.

We teach kids this sports shit actually matters in life and they turn into adults who think getting to a division I school is the end-all-be-all.

That's OK... they can work for the geeks when they realize it was all a waste :)


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:31 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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Again nice try. Carmel and Avon? Carmel yes. Avon hardly. I agree though, your school is pretty much unheard of and is pretty much a non-competitor in most sports. But you are wrong on my schools notoriety. Multiple State championships in practically every sport, Network televised games, we are invited to play at east 1 game every season in the old dome/Lucas oil. Ask anyone what schools are a perennial athletic powerhouses in Indiana and we are always listed in the top 10. Oh and before you start spewing your bullshit about academics vs sports. We whip your ass there as well I am sure. 98% Graduation rate with 95% of graduating students going on to college with numerous athletes going on D1/D2 scholarships.


oh hot damn this is awesome. It's almost as though you think high school sports matter. Newsflash: no one cares. It's high school. Say more, say more! It's great. If your school was a "powerhouse," I would have heard of it. I live in this state too!

As for academics, it's pretty easy to have 95% going to college when you are a private school. Unlike every public school, you don't have to take the fuck-ups. Generally the fuck-ups don't even get a shot at a school like yours because their parents either can't afford it or they don't care about their kids-- which is why their kids are fuck-ups.

I went to a private school in high school. I remember the year I graduated, we had 100% of kids go to college. I used to think that was hot shit, until I realized that's easy to do when you don't have to take anyone you don't want to and the public schools I was comparing it to don't get that option.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:47 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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ok rotating laundry and thought of a little more to say. This really isn't about knocking you down, although it's rather fun to do. I just want to voice a few more thoughts.

How did you get to the point where you feel the need to compare schools? What made you decide to try to cut me down by attacking where I work? It's true I pointed out that your school isn't as well known as you think, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good school. I'm sure it's a great school. But it's simply not as famous as you think. The fact is, high school school sports matter most only to the people who actually go to that school. In the outside world, it just doesn't matter. It's just high school sports, for better or worse. That's not saying anything negative about your school, just your overblown perception of its importance to the rest of us.

But you apparently felt this huge need to go further... to cut down my school without any knowledge about it. You called my entire school bigots. You put down all our sports programs. You called us academically and athletically obscure. I'm not going to do any of that, because I want every student and every school to succeed. Can you understand that? It's not a competition for me about who's school has the bigger dick. I want to educate the students. That's it. I think my school actually does a great job, and does it with limited resources. I bet your school does a great job too.

You need to turn down the macho stuff. It just makes you sound like an asshole.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:46 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
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1. If the kids wore the shirts on Cinco de Mayo out of the blue as an organized effort, they don't need put in jail. They need a *gasp* mature adults to say "hey, this really isn't necessary, swap out the shirts. It's like wearing a "have safe sex" shirt the day after a class mate dies of AIDS (even if they normally wear those shirts). Illegal? not really. Tasteless and disruptive - yes. Have a little class.


What they need is a "responsible" adult to do is shut the fuck up. At least one of the kids sent home have a mexican parent. This isn't your attempted white boy club trying to piss off mexicans. This is a few kids making a point. Good to know an American flag is disruptive in America.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
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You teach Band, of course you are going to say sports don't matter. Here is a clue since you obviously don't know shit about HS sports or about private vs parochial schools. We are Parochial and if you are a parishioner in the Archdioceses you can come here. If you can't pay we have financial assistance. Do you even know what school I coach at? We have the highest wining percentage of any football team in the state over the last 10 yrs. 9 straight sectional championships, 9 straight regional championships, 6 semi states and 5 state championships. No other school has so totally dominated the sport and their competition the way we have this past decade.

High School sports on a highly competitive team allows kids to go on to play sports in college for free. How many full or 3/4 Band scholarships are offered? (I am asking because I don't know.) Did you know that 87% of all D1/D1AA scholarships come from less than 8% of all high schools? In the last 2 weeks I have had 48 D1 recruiters come in to look at the kids. So far I have had 43 kids go to D1/D1AA/D2 schools in the past 6yrs. Of those 43, 2 are now in the NFL, 2 others will probably be drafted next year. Not bad for a school with only 683 kids. Any idea how satisfying it is to be able to turn on the TV on any Saturday and see a kid playing on national TV that you developed and coached? I do everything I can to get those kids ready to get to the next level. It is the reason I spend 30hrs a week coaching. Will my son make it? Who knows. He has the grades, size & speed and is already listed on several scouting sites as a prospect for 2012 so who knows.

Another thing I find amusing is your comparison of the private/parochial vs public schools. If you want better schools, drop your teachers union and adopt performance standards for teachers and get rid of the non-performers. We do and 4 teachers didn't get their contracts renewed for next year.

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We teach kids this sports shit actually matters in life and they turn into adults who think getting to a division I school is the end-all-be-all.


D1 scholarship is about 250-300k depending upon where you go in education $$$. Anyone who thinks that isn't big shit is 1) someone who is rich and can afford to pay it out of pocket 2) someone who's kids don't have a chance in hell of ever getting one. Which are you?

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:24 PM 
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I'm still curious not only in how precisely it was decided that allowing same-sex partners into the prom would result in more alcohol coming onto the premise, but more importantly how that ended up justifying discrimination against same-sex couples for all these years.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:48 PM 
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So what D-1 schools are recruiting your kid? Also, are you a paid employee of this school? A football coach? I was under the impression you were in a different line of work.

PS: Which 2 are in the NFL?


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:18 AM 
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The recruiters are in for the current Juniors and can't officially talk to the sophomores until Sept 1, but ask for :bump: to meet him.

School, shit name it. Boston College, IU, UK, Ball State, VT, V, Clemson, Cincinnati, Northwestern, TN, NC, Florida, FL St. are the ones off the top of my head. Plus a lot of other D1AA schools like WKU, EKU, IN State, Ill State, So ILL, etc.

I'm an IT Director rom 7-3 and Strength & Conditioning and Ass. Off Line coach from 3:15 -7pm. And yes I am also paid.

Ryan Baker for the Purdue grad- Miami Dolphins 2nd yr and Tim Dury UI Grad - Is in camp with STL Rams right now Rookie.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:32 AM 
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I'm still curious not only in how precisely it was decided that allowing same-sex partners into the prom would result in more alcohol coming onto the premise, but more importantly how that ended up justifying discrimination against same-sex couples for all these years.


wrong thread

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:38 AM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
Tim Dury UI Grad - Is in camp with STL Rams right now Rookie.


Go Rams!!! Much love Khan, I feel the excitement for your school. But I just can't see how it's as important as you seem to think it is in this discussion, and your response to Frib.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:18 AM 
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wrong thread


Well, I saw the alcohol reference mentioned here and not in the other one. Might have missed it.

I'm more curious about answers to those questions than which school has the bigger potential e-peen.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:34 AM 
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Holy shit, Khan. That's a nice wall of text about your high school. Living vicariously much?


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:07 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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You teach Band, of course you are going to say sports don't matter.


Bullshit. Band competitions don't matter either. My point of view is based on reality, not on what I teach.

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Here is a clue since you obviously don't know shit about HS sports or about private vs parochial schools. We are Parochial and if you are a parishioner in the Archdioceses you can come here. If you can't pay we have financial assistance.


So what, again, is the difference between parochial and private in your mind? I went to a parochial school too. Everything I said was still true. I even got that financial assistance that you are talking about. It is still not even close to the same situation as a public school system that *must* take *everyone* in their area. Ask yourself for a moment who sends their kids to non-public schools. Is it the alcoholic parents that don't give a shit about their kids? Are you aware of how strong parental influence is on the success of kids? Non-public schools are more selective by their very nature-- students that are there, *on average,* have more money, and come from parents who care. Statistically that makes them more likely to succeed. I went to a Lutheran high school. They took anyone who was a member of a Lutheran church. Our college rate was at or near 100% every year too. But now I realize that's because of a lot more factors than just "omg the teachers suck" as you apparently think.

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Do you even know what school I coach at?


If you think I don't know, doesn't that say something about how famous your school actually is? I live in Indiana, and I watch football games too!

Quote:
How many full or 3/4 Band scholarships are offered?


You said you asked because you honestly didn't know. The answer is actually many. I unfortunately don't have statistics; I was told in college itself that far more kids get scholarships to play music in college than to play sports. It was one of the points made over and over again in classes where we discussed music advocacy. One of the big differences between music and sports is the percentage of kids that participate who get scholarships. In your own stated statistics you pointed out the rarity of high school kids getting scholarships for sports (8% of high schools getting 87% of scholarships). In contrast, almost every senior leaving my band and going to college got some kind of scholarship for their music playing. Full scholarships? Not always, although there are lots of those out there. But help? oh yes.

I still don't get why you keep pushing how great your school is. I'm sure it's a wonderful school, and I already said that. It's simply not as famous as you think it is. In your world, it's everything. For most of the country, they don't know anything about you, or care.

Just like my high school.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:36 AM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
In the last 2 weeks I have had 48 D1 recruiters come in to look at the kids. So far I have had 43 kids go to D1/D1AA/D2 schools in the past 6yrs. Of those 43, 2 are now in the NFL, 2 others will probably be drafted next year. Not bad for a school with only 683 kids.
So of all these kids, only 2 are actually going to make a living at football - maybe 4? I rest my case.

Xkhanx wrote:
D1 scholarship is about 250-300k depending upon where you go in education $$$. Anyone who thinks that isn't big shit is 1) someone who is rich and can afford to pay it out of pocket 2) someone who's kids don't have a chance in hell of ever getting one. Which are you?
Not sure what D1 schools you're going to... Even if you're going out-of-state schools - max would be $40k for most schools, and if you go 5 years, that's $200k. Most people can get a solid education at a public, in-state institution for under $80k, easily. Actually get higher than a 26 on your ACT and carry a decent GPA, and that drops dramatically.

And even if that was the cost, unless the kid goes to the NFL, there is questionable value in a 2.6 GPA from Purdue in Sports Sciences. And I'll save you the counter-rant, I know there are people who do get a quality education out of it, but if a school is dropping $300k like you claim, I think it's fair to say academics are secondary.

I think it's awesome and sad all at the same time, because these kids only realize they've been chewed up and spit out when they're 23.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:59 AM 
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So of all these kids, only 2 are actually going to make a living at football - maybe 4? I rest my case.


No one is talking about making a living playing a sport. We are talking about having your education paid for and you obviously know jack and shit about it. Full ride D1/D1AA scholarships pay for everything. Tuition, Food, housing, insurance for 5 years. Being a D1 prospect allows a kid one hell of a lot more options than going to an In-State pub school and being burdened for the next 15yrs with student loans. Pick a school that has a high graduation rate vs some shit-hole like Ohio State that graduates like 40% of their athletes. That's a 4yr degree and a hell of a good start on a masters. All paid for by playing a sport. Not to mention Alumni support and networking for getting a job after school. That's pretty damn good in my book.

My question to you is why pay if you don't have to? Is the degree obtained worth less if you don't pay for it? Is it tainted somehow? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:40 PM 
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It's funny how we're off on this tangent way over in left field all because suddenly Khan had to play, "My school can beat up your school."


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:24 PM 
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It's kind of sad, really, but I guess if it's all you've got then you've gotta keep wiggling it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:49 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
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And what do you "have" that's so vastly more important? You act like giving a shit about excelling at something is a bad thing because it's a sport. D1 schools have to offer something like 76.5 scholarships per year for football and as high as 85, it drops down for each division. I have a good friend that's first chair piccolo, one of about 5 in her county and she can't get a free ride like that.

I don't particularly give a fuck about sports, but to completely write it off is more then a bit naive.

As far as "only" having 2 kids that are able to make their living and possibly set themselves up for life, there are only 1696 players playing football in the NFL. With a bare minimum of $225,000 a year. Yeah man, way to go, that's trivial alright.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:00 PM 
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You said you asked because you honestly didn't know. The answer is actually many. I unfortunately don't have statistics; I was told in college itself that far more kids get scholarships to play music in college than to play sports. It was one of the points made over and over again in classes where we discussed music advocacy. One of the big differences between music and sports is the percentage of kids that participate who get scholarships. In your own stated statistics you pointed out the rarity of high school kids getting scholarships for sports (8% of high schools getting 87% of scholarships). In contrast, almost every senior leaving my band and going to college got some kind of scholarship for their music playing. Full scholarships? Not always, although there are lots of those out there. But help? oh yes.


I did some research and my findings don't match what you say. The number of full ride music scholarships offered by a universities/colleges are minimal only a few State Universities do. Oh there are lots and lots of $200-$500 scholarships and grants out there, but the number of 100% full ride scholarships for musicians right out of HS is, from what I could find, almost non-existent. A few Universities do offer full rides, but they are mostly for grad students. Please direct me to someplace that says something different. Seriously. No bullshit. You now have me looking for something for my daughter who doesn't play sports but was chosen to play the violin in North Central's Symphony Orchestra next year as a freshman.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:30 PM 
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As far as "only" having 2 kids that are able to make their living and possibly set themselves up for life, there are only 1696 players playing football in the NFL. With a bare minimum of $225,000 a year. Yeah man, way to go, that's trivial alright.


As far as "only" having 1 guy win the lottery and possibly set himself up for life, there are only like 3 guys that win the lotto a year. With a bare minimum of a million or something. Yeah man, that's trivial alright!


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:45 PM 
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Good to know what can be expected out of you.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:22 PM 
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Probably the dumbest comparison ever, but I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more from you. Equating hard work, drive, ability and discipline to something someone has zero control over other than buying a ticket is just plain stupid.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:31 PM 
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What? He was trying to make some silly claim that the probabilities and work/payoff ratio were actually somehow a good bargain. That's all I was commenting on.

I wasn't comparing football to the lotto so much as I was comparing getting into the NFL with the lotto. Both pretty poor ways of planning for one's future.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:36 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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And what do you "have" that's so vastly more important? You act like giving a shit about excelling at something is a bad thing because it's a sport. D1 schools have to offer something like 76.5 scholarships per year for football and as high as 85, it drops down for each division. I have a good friend that's first chair piccolo, one of about 5 in her county and she can't get a free ride like that.

I don't particularly give a fuck about sports, but to completely write it off is more then a bit naive.


Look, someone else who didn't read what I posted. I never wrote off sports at all. I actually told him I'm happy their school is doing well. I just pointed out that his school wasn't as famous as he thinks it is, and the volcano blew its top.

As for scholarships, I never said full ride scholarships, only that scholarships are out there. I was a mediocre player in high school, and half my tuition was paid for by music scholarships at a private college. All of my seniors this year going to college, whether or not they are studying music, are receiving some scholarship money for their playing. I believe the lowest amount among this year's seniors is $2000 a year.

And I liked this comment:

Quote:
I have a good friend that's first chair piccolo, one of about 5 in her county and she can't get a free ride like that.


I'm sure your friend is a good player, so don't misinterpret this, but this sentence just sounded like someone who doesn't understand how music usually works in schools. Every school that has a piccolo player has a "first chair piccolo" because that merely designates which player is the best piccolo player. So the number of 1st chair piccolos in your county is merely the number of school bands with piccolo players in them. Your comment implied that it was some kind of super elite status :). Honestly is just sounded like you were trying to inflate her importance. It could very well be that your first chair piccolo player is a really bad player, but just the best of the bunch. On the other hand, she could be an incredibly gifted player... who knows?

Khan, when your daughter begins to look for colleges, simply contact the music departments in whatever college she applies to or thinks about applying to. Any school with a decent music program will have scholarships available. They often will give partial scholarships even if the child is not planning to study music but is willing to play in their ensembles, if the child has some talent.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:44 PM 
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K, thanks. And I think Orme was referring to Bovin and syuni's comments.

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