1. The confidence is the biggest factor IMO. Even if you don't have it, fake it, you have nothing to lose.<
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<
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2. I don't like specific rules like call after this # of days, or do XYZ by date ten. Every dating situation is different, play it by ear. I do like this general rule of thumb though; women want a man who likes to be with them, but does not need to be with them. At least for the dating period. If you find yourself calling multiple times without a call back, or stopping by her work unexpected, you are likely falling into the "need" catagory. <i></i>

Quote:1) Work on your confidence/self-esteem issues.<
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2) Don't chase. Give them room to come to you.<
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<
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Walk up to 100 women and just start chatting to them. Now don't go out of your way to speak to them. Talk to them in the grocery checkout line, the gas station pumping gas next to you, etc. They don't have to be pretty or young, just women. It will go a long way in improving your confidence.<
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<
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Never chase, if you go out with a woman and had a good time, toss her a machine a call the next day and say "This is "XXX" and I can't talk long but jsut wanted to tell you it was nice to meet you and I had a great time last night. Have a great day, buh bye." Don't commit to calling anytime soon and if she is interested, she will write down your number from the caller ID and will probably put it in her cell. After 4-5 days if she hasn't called toss her another call. "Hi, this is XXX I only have a min, i was jsut clearing out my called numbers list on my phone and saw your name and realized I hadn't called you for a while. Wanna get together sometime soon? lemme know, i gotta go. Buh bye." This leaves the ball in her court. If she wants to see you again, she will call, but since you didn't say you would be calling back to confirm she now knows that she must make the next move. If she doesn't then you know she isn't interested. If she does then you are on your way. <
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<
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She is now the pursuer, not the pursuee (sp?)<
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<
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If she does call, shoot down the first 1 or 2 nights she offers herself as available claiming previous plans. Then suggest a quick lunch someplace close to her work. That way she can tell her co-workers she has a lunch date and they can be sly and check you out and give her their opinion. Make the lunch quick and offer to pay for it "Can I buy your lunch as well?" when the bill comes. Don't let her jsut assume you will be paying. When you are ready to leave Shake her hand (like orme said)Tell her you enjoyed the qucik get together and say "Maybe we can do it again sometime, I am in this area on XXX and XXX days around this time every week". Say goodbye and walk off. <
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<
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Now she is wondering WTF is going on, NOW she is wondering if YOU find her appealing, not the other way around. Now she will call you again because deep down inside she is thinking "If he only wants to have lunch with me, who is he seeing for dinner!!!." <
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The next time she calls she will be adamant about it being an evening date.<
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I gotta go, but I'll add more later, or ORME can continue<
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he knows what I am talking about.<
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<i></i>

_________________

_____
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

*clap for Khan*<
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this man knows how to do it =) <i></i>

I should have read Orme's post before I made mine. Stupid me. He hit it all right on the head.<
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<
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There is one thing that I think we all have missed that might help you before you jump back into the dating scene, CC.<
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<
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Maybe it's time you had yourself a 'slumpbuster'...<
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<
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Maybe I'm reading into this wrong, but based on the last few posts re: this type of thing, I'm guessing that, well, just maybe, it's been a while for you to, you know, get a little 'luvin'. And also from your posts, I'm getting a feeling that your Mojo needs a little boost. It's all good, happens to all of us. But sometime, you need to get out of that slump to properly get back into the game. <
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<
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Now, a proper slumpbuster is someone you don't know, and, realistically, it's not really someone you would consider dating. Now, I wouldn't go slumming for a slumpbuster. There are some perfectly adequate women available in any location for busting a slump. Some guys say 'Just go hoggin', but thats a little harsh. However, your slump bust may not be the prettiest thing on the block. They usually aren't, but thats not what should concern you. Getting the slump
oken is. It's like
eaking a batting slump in baseball. It doesn't have to be pretty. It just needs to be a hit. And then it all kinda falls into place after that.<
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<
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3 things to keep in mind.<
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<
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1) Ya, you pretty much need to go to a bar to find this.<
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2) Ya, there will be lots of drinking<
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3) Don't waste alot off time. If you can't get it done with one the night you meet her, don't bother any more. Then your playing the dating game. And then your troubles start all over again.<
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<
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Go to a bar you don't go to much, but has your kind of people. It's best to blend in. I'd recommend hitting this bar 2-3 times before working on your 'bust'. Scout it out. Find the girl that is always there by herself, or with a few friends, but is always the last to leave. She's your huckleberry, cause she's hanging out hoping to get hit on. Get a drink or two in ya for some extra courage. No offense, honestly, but maybe you could use just a little bit right about now. <
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<
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Now, here's the key. Your plan is to hit it and quit it. It may sound piggish, but bet your ass, women have done this too, so dump the nice guy inhibitions about this being rude at the door. This is all about you buddy, and if you hold anything back, your just gonna sink in further. So, have some good Lie's, and some great story's under your belt. Have em down pat, and commit to em. Make up some crazy shit, and some funny stories. If you can't make up your own, hell, skim through these forums. I'm sure there is a story or two here that, properly modified, will do the trick.<
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<
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Be sure to find out what she likes to drink. Your buying now, bucky. Don't force them on her, but keep em coming. Just don't get her nasty, sloshy drunk. That can lead to a date rape charge, or at the very least, her vomiting in the bathroom just as you were ready to slip a hand down her blouse. Just get her to the point where she's having fun and those inhibitions aren't bugging her to be the 'good girl' that night. And for god's sake, make sure she laughs, alot. Don't bother with any poor me stories, and for god's sake, don't say 'it's been a while'. Remember, your image to
eak this slump is Harry Fucking Houdini. Your the god damned magic man, as far as she knows, and you can be sure that is what your mark is looking for. <
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<
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Just be a fucker when it's all done. And don't feel bad about using a woman for sex. That guilt will fuck up the slumpbust. After you get your luvin, you'll walk a little taller, feel a little bolder, and that stink of desperation will no longer follow you like PePe LePew. <
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<
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Say what you will, it's a tried and true solution that will help ya get back on track. I've used it when I was having some confidence issues way back in the day. I'm sure other's here have too.<
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<i></i>

<
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Orme speaks wisely.<
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<
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Attraction is 9% looks, 90% confidence, and 1% miscellaneous bullshit women say they want, though in reality do not give nearly as much weight as they think they do. And when I say 9% looks - I'm talking basic hygiene, clean clothes, you don't smell like an armpit, etc. I seriously doubt that you're that far gone that you're at least not hitting those standards <
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<
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And the best dating advice I have ever heard, is pretty simple:<
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<
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Stop trying.<
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<
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Learning the dating game is sorta like learning to fish. A beginner will yank back on the rod at the first sign of a nibble. You'll never land one like that, you have to learn to let her hook herself.<
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<
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I don't know you at all, though I'm willing to take a bet that I can guess something about you. You get along great with women that you have no real intention with. The flirty little old ladies, your friends' girlfriends, her friends, etc. Take an honest look. Am I right or wrong here?<
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<
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Best example is the little old lady syndrome. You know those little old ladies that you flirt with like mad? Because there is no intention or expectation, you're perfectly at ease and at the top of your game. That's how you need to learn to be all the time, because most of the time it isn't what you say, it's how you say it. Women can smell desperation, games, and intent from MILES away. And 99% of the time, any hint of those will outright kill any chance you had.<
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<
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All those chicks you get along great with are no different from the ones you evaluate and seek as potential mates.<
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<
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A couple years ago, I gave some serious consideration as to why I was always alone on the weekends, or the only thing I had to do was go out was sip beers with my friends. The reasons for it were so painfully simple, that I was missing them because they were so right up in my face I couldn't see them.<
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<
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I never really attempted to talk to women. And when I stumbled onto one, I was riddled with self doubt. I was a total douche bag because I had no idea what I was doing.<
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<
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So I decided to make an effort. I had zero idea of what I was doing, so it was trial by fire. At first, it was horrendous. I'd get flat out shot down right out of the gates nearly every time. However, I didn't give up, I was sick of being lonely, and tired of looking at my douche bag friends landing women left and right when I knew I was better looking, smarter, and had more to offer.<
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<
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Then it hit me one day as I was getting showered for work one day after a particularly bad night at the club.<
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<
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It didn't matter. It honestly did not matter one single bit as I stood there, I had gotten shot down 4 or 5 times the night before ... that my failures were completely, totally, and utterly inconsequential. The only person who was keeping score was myself. It doesn't matter how many times you fall flat on your face, because almost no one remembers that Babe Ruth struck out nearly twice as often as he hit a home run in his career.<
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<
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It's kinda ironic how that works, I found confidence in my failure. It wasn't a lot, but it was a start. Though that's the key here, you have to stop looking at the difficulty in the opportunity, and start looking at the opportunity in the difficulty. It's all about the right mindset.<
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<
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And the second best thing I ever learned about dating: Be honest. With yourself, about you, and the girl your interested in. Don't get into the trap of seeing things how you want them, you need to see things for how they are. The easiest person to lie to is yourself.<
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<
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I'm 24, I still live at home, I work in a pizza joint struggling to go back to school, drive a car that doesn't belong to me. I'm not even great looking, pretty much Average Joe - 20 lbs overweight, big nose, kinda goofy looking. Yeah, I'm pretty much a fuck up as it stands now. Though I know there are good things about me, and I play to my strengths. I don't proffess I can seduce women at the drop of the hat, far from. Though I rarely have a weekend now where I don't have at least 1 or 2 options for a date. If I can do it, anyone can =P<
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<
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Hope this helps. I kept it kinda general and short, as others have nailed down some good specifics for your situation. Dating isn't easy, though it isn't nearly has difficult as a lot of people make it out to be. <
>Sequestered Lord Protector - Lanys T`Vyl<i></i>

Quote:(Tommy)<
>
Let me tell you why i SUCK as a salesman, lets say i go into some guy's office, lets say he's even remotely interested in buying something, well then i get all excited, i'm like Jojo, the indian circus boy with a pretty new pet, the pet is my possible sale. ohh my pretty little pet, I LOVE YOU!! so i stroke it, and i pet it, and i masaaage it. hee hee hee, I LOVE IT!! i love my little naughty pet, YOU'RE NAUGHTY!! then i take my naughty pet, and i go, phggghhhh!!! phhgggghhhh!!!! OHHHHHHH!!!!! I KILLED IT, I KILLED MY SALE!!! And thats when i blow it. Thats when people like you and me have to forge ahead Helen, am i right? <
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<
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(Helen)<
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God, you're sick, tell you what, i'll go in the back and throw some wings n the burners for you, ok? <
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<
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(Tommy)<
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THANKS HELEN!!! Tommy likie!!! Tommy want wingy!!!<
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<
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Stalk much CC? <
>Charse of the Nexus<
>Lost Druid of Lanys<
><Eternal Sinn><
><i></i>

_________________
<center>
Charse of the Nexus
Lost druid of Lanys
&lt;eternal sinn&gt;
</center>

Quote:<
>
Sure, a guy that cries about everything at the drop of a hat might get annoying, but does such a guy even exist outside of movies and TV? Seriously, I've never met a guy in my entire life that fit the description being offered by some people here. I've seen it portrayed on TV, in movies, and in jokes, but I've never, ever met one<
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<
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I knew a guy who cried more than most guys I know. <
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<
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He liked me...was a great guy, very sensitive, etc.<
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<
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Except...I knew that I'd walk all over him. If he and I ever had a relationship, I would have abused the hell out of his willingness to bend over backwards for me.<
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And not because I would want to walk all over him, but I knew it would happen.<
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<
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So I refused to date him. Even though I thought he was a great guy, and I had a crush on him. I didn't want to be the type of person who did that to someone.<
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<
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<
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Anyway, Orme has it mostly right (although you can't say it's 100%, because lumping all women into a mold just won't work). <
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<
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And Duke...when you say a 'man needs to take charge,' it really depends on what extent. If a man started ordering me around, making plans without my input, etc...he'd be gone. If it's phrased differently, however...then it'd be fine. Even if it's something I enjoy. Ask, don't command. <
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<
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A decisive man is good. When asked "Where do you want to go to eat?," it gets annoying when the only feedback you ever get in return is "I don't know. Whatever." Even if you don't really care where you eat, give suggestions. Name two or three restaurants (or movies, or whatever the decision is), and then let the girl pick it out. Or, if you do have a preference, actually state it. <
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<
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Quote:<
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Thats worded a bit rough but women like to chase men once they know the man is interested. <
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I've never known a friend to chase a man. Not that there aren't women who don't like chasing men, but most I know don't. <
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Of course, a guy shouldn't run around desperately, either. CC did go way overboard in his enthusiasm by going to her work. <
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<
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Quote:<
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If any guy hits on her, get in his face. You don't necessarily have to fight him. But you need to definately play the smart role of marking some territory.<
>
This just screams over protective and jealous. If she's flirting with other guys to make you jealous, then that's something you need to work with her about. However, jumping all over a guy because he hits on her...not cool. There are subtle ways to let a guy know that someone is taken without having to "get in his face."<
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<
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Ok, so pretty much the only thing I agree with on Duke was his comments about the 6' thing. Chances are, she would have remained closer to you if she were into you. <
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<i></i>

_________________

MTV should renew Loveline, with Orme and Dr Drew. <i></i>

"Hello, Cicely, you're on the air... again." <i></i>

_________________

LMFAO <i></i>

I'm really glad I didn't have to go through all these rules everyone is listing, or I would have never gotten married. Everyone is making dating/relationship a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Just be yourself and relax. If you play games, you'll end up with someone who isn't right for you.

Unfortunately, Mono, nowdays, games are the norm, not the exception. <i></i>

It can't have changed that much.I'm not that old /cry and I'm pretty sure mono is younger then me but I could be wrong. <
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<
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/eyes mono are you an old bugger? <i></i>

_________________
"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

It's not so much the age, Rose, as to when she went off the market. <i></i>

I don't want the "bad boy", I like the "Handy Man". A man that can (and will) fix things around the house. A man that will keep my car tuned up and air in the tires... /cream <
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<
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<i></i>

Quote:A man that can (and will) fix things around the house. A man that will keep my car tuned up and air in the tires... <
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<
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Noni, do I smell a euphemism or two?<
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<
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<i></i>

College is/was a great place to find women who aren't necessarily into the whole bar-hopping, getting drunk thing. <
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<
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If you missed the boat, well, I can see why you're having problems. It's hard to meet good quality women outside of school. Perhaps at a social event.<
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<
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Bars usually net you women who like getting drunk and partying. That's not good relationship material. ---------<
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Dolalin<i></i>

Maybe <i></i>

I went off the market officially in 2000. I met my husband in 98. Has it changed completly in 8 years?

Swingers, ftw



Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master. <
><
>The biggest enemy of freedom is a happy slave.

<i></i>

_________________

Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.

The biggest enemy of freedom is a happy slave.

If you don't act like a desperate knob, then you'll be fine. Just develop your own style and don't be such a needy bitch.<
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<
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Luckily for most of us, women don't value physical appearance nearly as much as we do in them. My girlfriend's pretty damn attractive, whereas I am average Joe himself. It's a winning situation to be born male.<
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<
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--Dar <i></i>

Orme and Khanx summed things up pretty well I think. No offense CC, but I actually cringed reading some parts of your posts. I'm sure you are well meaning, but the bottom line is (at least the way I try to look at it) that you should view any girl as being lucky to be with you, and not visa versa. Again, the confidence issue everyone is alluding to. This is also why some people use alcohol as a crutch, because it can help remove some of your inhibitions and make you appear more confident by removing some of your trepidations.<
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<
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I have two very good friends, both single, who have zero game. They aren't ugly or anything, but they are very awkward around women.....and they also make the same mistake as you do, which is being too forward and aggressive early on.<
>
<
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I will relate one story to you. My friend was set up by a mutual friend of ours. For their very first date he chooses a super expensive restaurant. He actually goes there by himself first to try out the food to try and figure out what the best dishes are. He shows up to the date wearing his most expensive suit, and has a dozen roses for her.<
>
<
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Now.....already, that might put the girl in an uncomfortable position, because she may not have the expectations about the date....but he was sure making it obvious what his was. Sure enough, she was dressed less extravagantly (I forget now what he told me, but she might have even been in jeans). She's obviously not going to change her clothes now that she's answered the door, so there is awkward moment #1.<
>
<
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Now the other cardinal mistake.....calling immediately after the date. Khanx had it right....if you are going to do it, make it short and simple. You're better off though waiting. I know it sounds cliche, but it's the truth. Everyone has mentioned "Swingers" already, and I hope you've seen it, because then you might remember that scene where he just met a girl in a bar, then he goes home and leaves like 6 messages on her answering machine. Fricken hilarious scene, but you remember how bad you felt for that guy? DONT BE THAT GUY.<
>
<
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Wait a few days, then take Khanx's advice and call her one last time, leave it short and simple, see if she would be interested in going to lunch or dinner with you, and then just wait and see. Put the ball in her court and let her do with it as she will. If she doesn't call you back don't follow through anymore. Don't dwell on it. Don't call her again to make sure she got your message. Just move on.<
>
<
>
Listen also to the advice the women of this board are giving you, because it's good and it's from the female perspective. Women do not want an emotional, clingy, gossipy man, they can get that from their female friends. They want a man that is confident, can make them laugh, and can take care of whatever they perceive to be manly duties.<
>
<
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Confidence. Remember, you're money baby!<
>
<i></i>

Mono - the rules were there when you were dating. They've been around forever.<
>
<
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Most of the jibber jabber myself and others gave above is fluff. They're just fundamental maxims to enhance the probability of success. Things like the trap-hand-shake close and making sure you get at least a decent kiss on the second date are rules to maximize the enjoyment of dating. They're no more mind games than me saying, "on your first date Mono, don't fart. And, don't tell your date you need to go to the toilet to change tampons."<
>
<
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I had a buddy that "dated" a girl for 9 months and never touched her box. Cicely above, he could piss away 2-3 months chasing this chick. WHY? Following the basic rules above will spare them that aggravation.<
>
<
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See, it's not about mind games. It's a basic understanding of the rules of human nature to spare you agony. It's just like poker. SURE you can make a huge raise with 10-2 off suit at a table of 10 people, and SURE you might hit a full house on the flop. But, you're probably better off sticking to big raises with AQ or KK. <
>
<
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If you call a girl 5 times in 5 days, guess what: 98.23% of the time she's going to think you're a stalker. Only calling 1 time every 3-4 days is about understanding the basic human need of space and independence. Nobody wants their freedom immediately challenged. Also, if someone is clingy in the first couple calls, you can only imagine what will happen down the line. <
>
<
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The trap-hand-shake close isn't a mind game. It's a basic move that appeals to the widest variety of people. How many girls have been on a date and had a guy try to jump their bones in the middle of a parking lot? Or, how many times has a girl had a good date only to have it end in an awkward circle jerk while the guy says, "um, I'lll um, um call sumtime and um, it was um fun." I'm not advocating a "game", I'm just saying avoid those embarrassing, game killing mistakes.<
>
<
>
Anyhoo - it's not about mind games. Most people who "play games" lose in the end. Being genuine usually wins out. Unless of course, you're really a hot commodity that has people falling all over you. <i></i>

Here's what I think and it's probably just phrasing what Orme said in a different way more or less.<
>
<
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If you're phony/liar, it's like pretending to be someone you're not. Lying about your job. Spending beyond your means. Lying about your situation (claiming to own a home, when you live w/ your parents or something). Pretending to have interests you don't (saying you like sports, but you hate it. Saying you like opera when you'd rather die than sit through it).<
>
<
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That shit is bad. Eventually people are going to discover who you are, and if that's not who you've shown them...even if it's someone they could have liked or loved, they're going to boot your ass. No one likes a fake.<
>
<
>
Putting your best foot forward is something else. I wear clothing in the comfort of my home in front of my computer that no one outside of my home would EVER see me in. When I go out, I'm almost always dressed extremely nicely. I'm not being fake or real either time, it's simply how I choose to present myself and how I'm comfortable. <
>
<
>
Most people fart ... but not on a date. That's the difference. You're simply presenting yourself in the best possible light to someone who doesn't know you really well so they'll stick around so you can get to know each other really well. It still may not work out, but it's far better for either person to not be interested in the other for a legitimate difference in personality or whatever, than to quite literally scare someone off because your eagerness appears like scary stalker obessesion. The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
><
>
Keep my head from exploding?...<b>You can help!</b><i></i>

Quote:Putting your best foot forward is something else. I wear clothing in the comfort of my home in front of my computer that no one outside of my home would EVER see me in. When I go out, I'm almost always dressed extremely nicely. I'm not being fake or real either time, it's simply how I choose to present myself and how I'm comfortable.<
>
<
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People wear clothes while at the computer?<
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<
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wtf<
>
<
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<i></i>

_________________
Magic in Fribur's World

Quote:Most people fart ...<
>
<
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Most...but not all? <i></i>

Nope. Some explode spontaneously from all the buildup. <i></i>

Holy shit, Cicely is a guy?<
>
<
>
But to the point, my hat's off to you all; that's some good advice you're giving him. Even I learned a thing or two. <i></i>

Quote:I'm really glad I didn't have to go through all these rules everyone is listing, or I would have never gotten married. Everyone is making dating/relationship a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Just be yourself and relax. If you play games, you'll end up with someone who isn't right for you.<
>
<
>
I've always thought that's part of why the divorce rate is so high and always seems to be rising...seems like every year I hear more and more weird "rules" and games relating to what should just be a natural process.<
>
<
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But I guess we're just old fogies, Mono. <i></i>

Quote:People wear clothes while at the computer?This is not the image I had of a Quacker.... <
>Sig and Av by Quelin<i></i>

The divorce rate is rising because there's no taboo around it any more. If people don't get along, they just bail. It's a by-product of our ME ME ME society, not the rules of dating, heh.<
>
<
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I'd be curious to see the divorce rate of people who met over the internet vs. traditional methods. I would wager net hookups have a lower divorce rate because people connect on something more than "we met at a bar". Pure speculation on my part. <i></i>

Quote:It's a by-product of our ME ME ME society<
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<
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QFT. Two selfish people get together; what do we expect, a happy ending? ---------<
>
Dolalin<i></i>

Quacker <
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Quaker <
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<i></i>

_________________
"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

<i></i>

---<
>
vanamar<
>
modern day heresies<
>
dieinachurchfire.org (coming soon!)<
>
my livejournal<i></i>

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

i know this is so typical but..<
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<
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1. Confidence<
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2. Be Yourself<
>
3. Casual Flirt & Tone<
>
<
>
<i></i>

Quote:And the best dating advice I have ever heard, is pretty simple:<
>
Stop Trying<
>
<
>
QFT <i></i>

Quote:The divorce rate is rising because there's no taboo around it any more. If people don't get along, they just bail. It's a by-product of our ME ME ME society, not the rules of dating, heh.<
>
Before my grandpa died, we were sitting around one day and he gave talked to me about being married to my grandma (for like 54 years until she died) and how it was never easy, and there were years and years of struggle to keep it afloat. He said a constant effort needs to be put in by both sides in order for it to work, but if that is truly the person you love, you will be willing to put that effort in and make sacrifices. He also told me that for every tough time, there were 20 good times which made it all worthwhile. <
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<
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I don't even think it's as much two selfish people as it is how lazy we have become as a society. The % of white collar over blue collar workers has increased drastically since the 40's. Factory workers, assembly lines, mines. That is work ethic to me, with the hours they put in because the pay sucked and they had no other options. I am not saying white collar employees these days don't bust their ass, or have a good work ethic, I just think that the work ethic back then was a lot better because they had to be. Work ethic at the job tends to spill over to the home sometimes too. <
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<
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I'd be curious to know the difference percentage-wise of newlyweds back then having a child in the first year or even two, compared to now. I guarantee it was a lot higher. That would force responsibilty (Yes, I know that happens now too). One contributing factor to the quickness of having children is the amount of women working full-time jobs now compared to then. Independance for women definitely contributes to divorce rates since they aren't afraid to to open up their mouths instead of nodding and smiling in their pearl necklace and apron, and then crying in their single bed 4 feet from their husbands.<
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<
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How about availability of meeting someone else. Co-Ed workforces, women not staying at home anymore, phone dating services, internet dating services, cell phones, pagers, email. Not only is the availability of someone else greater, ways to communicate with them without being caught are light years better.<
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<
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And last, but not least, as Orme said, divorce isn't taboo anymore. I would say that the reaction from most friends and family after a divorce would be sympathy or at worst, shock for not seeing any problems. I don't think many people are looked down upon or shunned for divorcing anymore. Case in point, both sets of my grandparents went to church every Sunday, sometimes during the week, plus masses they did EVERY year for dead loved ones on the day they died, crucifixes, statues of Mary/Jesus etc...you get the picture. Between both sets, they had 7 kids. 4 of the 7, including both my parents, got divorced. From what I hear, none got shit for it from a "Marriage is sacred and you
oke that vow" standpoint. Needless to say, if the 14th to 17th Apostles known as my grandparents (everyone knows Chris Rock is the 13th) didn't blow a gasket over it, it's a good indication at least for me personally, that it's become acceptable. Shit, even Prince Charles divorced, then re-married a divorcee which is a HUGE no-no for someone in line for the throne (Although it had happened before).<
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<
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Average marriage age for men is the highest it's been since at least 1890 (27.1 years old) and Women is also the highest (25.3) since then. Keep in mind this is 2003 data, but per the webpage I pulled it from <
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(LINK), it came from http://www.census.gov. It doesn't seem like much, but it's like a 5 year jump from 1960.<
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<
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On the other hand, the divorce rate (3.7%) is the lowest it has been since the early 70's and is going down every year.<
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Also keep in mind,<
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THIS<
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is 2004 data. Also cited on this page is http://www.census.gov.
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<
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Well, compared to 40+ years ago our divorce rate is high, but I guess some of these stats kind of debunk some of my theories. Oh well. We do have about a 25% increase in total marriages compared to 1960 (Last time it was lower) though, which means a pretty big increase in number of divorces. <i></i>

To what you said Ark, the single biggest factor (learned this recently and can't remember who did the study, but it was a very serious study into poverty and child rates) in how many children a woman will have...is the age at which she marries.<
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<
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The biggest single factor affecting the age a woman will marry, is her personal earning power. If a woman is able to be financially independant (not even equal to the earning power of men, just enough to support herself outside of her family decently) the age at which she marries jumps substantially. And if a woman is marrying 10 years later, the number of children she will have is greatly reduced.<
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<
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It also affects whether or not a woman will stay in a relationship (regardless of whether or not divorce is 'allowed' or easily obtained legally). If a woman can leave and be self supporting for herself and children, she will leave a bad relationship opposed to staying more often than not, even when it's not socially viewed well.<
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<
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However for many women, leaving a relationship, or divorce results in loss of custody and severe poverty (in many places in the world). Even in the United States which is tremendously better than most of the world in regards to the rights of women, a woman's financial status almost always lowers after a divorce, and the years following. (And a man's almost always stays level or even increases, surprisingly enough). The man's income is lower, but as he often is not the parent of primary custody, the amount he has left to spend solely on himself is more substantial than when he was married. Whereas the woman, while she probably gets child support, the amount of money she has is tempered by bearing the majority of child related expenses, as well as maintaining a residence for those children.<
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<
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And while I think our society is very 'MEMEME' oriented at times, and very much focused on instant gratification, and immediate reward at times, I don't think for most people divorce is a cavalier option. Every person I've known who has divorced (that I have been friends with that is) has agonized over the decision. <
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<
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I also know several people who are staying in marriages which are extremely 'bad' (in various ways, either to the point of there simply being no love, to it being a very unequal relationship with no partnership, to severe unhappiness) for the sake of the children. In some cases because they truly believe that the children are better served by having two parents under one roof, and in other cases because divorce would mean a severe lessening of finances and fewer options for the children, and in cases of the men I know in such situations because they fear losing primary custody and having their relationships with their children regulated to them being a weekend father.<
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<
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Unfortunately there's no easy or pat answers where children are involved. Divorce in some instances is 'better' for the children than parents staying in an unhappy marriage, but all of it has challenges where children are involved. The only good part there is *most* parents try their best to set aside acrimonious feelings and do what they believe is best for the kids. Some even succeed. The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
><
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Keep my head from exploding?...<b>You can help!</b><i></i>

Quote:Average marriage age for men is the highest it's been since at least 1890 (27.1 years old) and Women is also the highest (25.3) since then.<
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<
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All I can say is thank goodness. Too many babies having babies as it is. "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."<
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- Thomas Edison<i></i>

Quote:Unfortunately there's no easy or pat answers where children are involved. Divorce in some instances is 'better' for the children than parents staying in an unhappy marriage, but all of it has challenges where children are involved. The only good part there is *most* parents try their best to set aside acrimonious feelings and do what they believe is best for the kids. Some even succeed.<
>
I think Blink 182 said it best (the song is aptly named "Stay Together for the Kids"):<
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<
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Their anger hurts my ears<
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Been running strong for seven years<
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Rather than fix the problems, they never solve them<
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It makes no sense at all<
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I see them every day<
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We get along so why can't they?<
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If this is what he wants and this is what<
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she wants<
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Then why is there so much pain?<
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<
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So here's your holiday<
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Hope you enjoy it this time<
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You gave it all away<
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It was mine<
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So when you're dead and gone<
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Will you remember this night, twenty years now lost<
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It's not right <i></i>

The people I know 'staying for the kids' are not having constant screaming fights or anything like that...well except for one. I have my own opinions as to what *I* think they should do...well in most instances...but in reality, it's a tough choice to make. <
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<
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I only had one friend who claimed to be staying for the kids but in reality was staying because leaving meant she'd have to get off her ass and get a job, and quite frankly she's lazy. The kids were not better off in that situation because she talked shit about their father all the time, and they fought. Honestly neither one of them are great parents. Once it got down to her having to either make a choice to stay or go, she chose to stay, and their relationship now is actually much better as a result.<
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<
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Her kids are fucking monsters though. Some people shouldn't have kids. She's one of 'em. It's not abuse (because I'd report it and kick her ass), it's unfortunately inconsistent discipline combined with laziness and excusing behavioral problems. It's cute when they sass back, adorable when they use profanity, they throw tantrums because they're just so
ight, and they only steal because they just don't understand they're not supposed to take things that aren't theirs... <
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<
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I've just been waiting for her to call to tell me they've started lighting fires because they think flames are pretty!<
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<
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I could write a rather lengthy rant on the innumerable 'bad parent' things that have popped out of her mouth. And yes, she knows exactly what I think about it all. She just has an excuse for everything. The schools are bad, but she can't afford private. Well, she could cut out the cell phone, eating out, her gym, her getting her hair done, the extra car they don't 'need', the pets, the satellite, the toys...but they NEED those things, and doesn't she deserve some nice treats? Okay need to stop there, because I will end up derailing this with an offtopic rant about someone none of you know. The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
><
>
Keep my head from exploding?...<b>You can help!</b><i></i>

Quote:The biggest single factor affecting the age a woman will marry, is her personal earning power. If a woman is able to be financially independant (not even equal to the earning power of men, just enough to support herself outside of her family decently) the age at which she marries jumps substantially. And if a woman is marrying 10 years later, the number of children she will have is greatly reduced.<
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<
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Well no shit, she's 10 years older. At some point she stops having the ability to have kids.<
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<
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--------------<
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<
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But anyway back on point...<
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<
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Confidence, confidence, confidence.<
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<
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That's what it's all about, if you aren't happy with yourself no one else is going to be. I could stand to lose 20 pounds but all in all I'm pretty damn happy with myself.<
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<
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Insecurity is a turn off.<
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<
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Some of the suggestions Orme and Khan have given are good ones, it's not about playing a game(if you aren't being genuine that comes across anyway). Just don't try so hard, I "suffer" the whole nice guy thing too, and I get attatched too easily to boot. Frankly I'm tired of getting hurt, so I've been more guarded, and I think I'm better off all around because of it. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

_________________
Marauder Harabakc Goat

<
>
<
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Am I too late? <i></i>

_________________
"Be glad there was a keyboard, monitor and miles of fiber between us when you typed that."

"State that opinion in my presence, you fucktard, and I'll show you how valid it is when I'm kicking the shit out of you."

Good advice over all on this thread.<
>
<
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Though from the 6-10ft away chat I'd assume she is uninterested.<
>
<
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<i></i>

Quote:On the other hand, the divorce rate (3.7%) is the lowest it has been since the early 70's and is going down every year.<
>
Also keep in mind,<
>
THIS<
>
is 2004 data. Also cited on this page is http://www.census.gov.
>
<
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<
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That's not 3.7%. <
>
<
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That's 3.7 divorces per 1,000 people and 7.4 marriages per 1,000 people. Depending on how you wanna look at it, one could say that there's 0.5 divorces for every marriage, or 50% divorce rate. <i></i>

PS: Just an FYI.... Single women over 27 are pretty much insane. Divorced ones are not.<
>
<
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<i></i>

_________________

_____
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Dammit I meant Quaker. <
>
<
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Although.... quacker does seem to fit. <
>Sig and Av by Quelin<i></i>

Quote:Divorced ones are not.<
>
<
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Bullshitz Jolanda!<
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<
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This is from someone who's had all to much experience with them lately. <i></i>

Gonna have to call BS on that as well. They all be crazy at any age! <i></i>

_________________

There is a difference between Crazy and Insane.<
>
<i></i>

_________________

_____
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

We're not any more crazy than men.<
>
<
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<
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<i></i>

_________________

austy's horse likes to watch itself poo <
>
My Profile - Oryx<i></i>

Quote:We're not any more crazy than men.<
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<
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It's all about your standpoint. To us, you're all crazy. <
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<
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Conversely, I'm sure you look at us the same way. (Which is what I think you were trying to get at.) <i></i>

_________________
--Samel

Quote:Then they proclaim how there are no good men left in the world who are sensative and caring and can communicate, yadda yadda yadda, only to go out the next week and find another 'badboy' and repeat the cycle.<
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<
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Amen
other.<
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<
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To [most] of you women, you turn us into what you hate! Almost EVERY guy I've known tried the nice guy route first, and all that lands you is a "friend", bottom line.<
>
<
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Carlos Mencia once addressed women saying, "No one with a dick is your friend!" No words ever rang truer, unless he's gay anyway. <i></i>

_________________
--Samel

Quote:To [most] of you women, you turn us into what you hate!<
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<
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Completely true. Lots of people simply can't or won't control their biology, and it kicks them in the ass. ---------<
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Dolalin<i></i>

Quote:To [most] of you women, you turn us into what you hate! Almost EVERY guy I've known tried the nice guy route first, and all that lands you is a "friend", bottom line.<
>
<
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That's woman speak for "You're a nice person, but I will never ever fuck you". It means that you're a decent enough person and we'd like to have you around, but you're not relationship material.<
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<
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If you're getting the "friends" line a lot, see if any of your female friends will honestly tell you why you're getting shot into the 'friends' catagory. <
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<
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I guarentee it will probably be fixable. Otherwise they wouldn't want you as a 'friend'. It has nothing to do with being a nice guy and nice guys never win and only assholes get women. It's because most women won't be blunt and say, "You're not up to my level of attraction, so I'm not interested in fucking you. Ever." Though for most women physical attractiveness isn't as important on the scale as it is [generally] for most men. <
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<
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For guys who get the friends speech all the time though, there's a reason. Sooner you discover it and remedy it, the happier you'll be. The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
><
>
Keep my head from exploding?...<b>You can help!</b><i></i>

Cut the shit. Like myself, you play video games, so you are probably like most guys here. A neglecting nerd.<
>
<
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Just fart in front of her. If she cracks a smile, she's a keeper.<
>
<i></i>

Quote:Though for most women physical attractiveness isn't as important on the scale as it is [generally] for most men.<
>
<
>
Discounting what television holds up as fact, I've seen surveys that indicate the exact opposite of what you just said. There was even a thread here that indicated the exact same thing last year or so, and iirc you were in agreement. <i></i>

_________________
"Be glad there was a keyboard, monitor and miles of fiber between us when you typed that."

"State that opinion in my presence, you fucktard, and I'll show you how valid it is when I'm kicking the shit out of you."