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 Post subject: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:36 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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I just want to post a quick salute to the cover story in Time magazine this week about why government is no longer working. I think they are exactly right in their analysis of the problems.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/artic ... 78,00.html


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:31 PM 
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Pretty typical, coming from Time. How's that readership doing?

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:42 PM 
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Yeah! They're just a bunch of liberal fags.

Now that we have that out of the way, do you have an actual position?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:22 PM 
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A "salute" sounds like he agrees with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:26 PM 
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I think Ellessar was referring to Dark Omen.

And Dark, there's another article in that same magazine written by Newt Gingerich on the same subject, and he says some of the same things. Is he a liberal fag too?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:58 PM 
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What kind of position do you want? It's typical bullshit out of the typical place. They fail to mention any of the democrat filibustering over the last several years, and try to marginalize the tea party movement into 2 sentences. What else is to be expected?

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:07 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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1) The Democrats have not filibustered with the same frequency as the Republicans. Maybe you have forgotten, but the Republicans still managed to pass most of their major legislation during the Bush years. The article does mention that the Democrats have tried this strategy as well, but weren't as good at it.

2) The Tea Party wasn't discussed because two pages later in the magazine there is an entire article on the subject that fills 6 pages-- more than this article.


Want to try again?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:06 PM 
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1) They did the same shit when they had their chance to. Bush was worse then most of them when it came to blowing money, but Obama decided to make sure he didn't hold any records on that.

2) He did mention them, exactly enough to try and marginalize as nothing but government haters in the cover story. Did the same guy author that article as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:31 PM 
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1) Yes, they did the same shit, but I repeat.... not as well as the Republicans did, and with not nearly the same frequency.

2) The Tea Party is defined as best as I can tell with a disgust of government as it is and the desire to reduce it's influence on life of a citizen. That sounds like government haters to me, but whatever. No, he is not the same author.

Let's add a 3.

3) Are you going to actually give a substantive viewpoint on the article's main points, or just just keep ignoring reality and bleating about Democrats doing it too?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:23 AM 
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disgust with the government and the desire to remove their meddling from as many aspects of life as possible doesn't necessarily make a person a "government hater" -- then again, neither does it make for a tea party member.

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:37 AM 
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Quote:
and try to marginalize the tea party movement into 2 sentences.


What, and those silly, whiny teabaggers deserve more coverage?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:13 AM 
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Again, they got 6 pages in the same magazine, and Vana-- what a "Tea Party" member is differs depending on who you ask, since there is a wide variety of people in it and no official stance on anything within the ranks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:14 AM 
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heh... well, the "popular press" coverage sort of paints them as whackos.

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:20 AM 
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Blame it on the "popular press" and biased coverage all you want...fact is that every time I see them talking or holding up signs, I see silly stuff like, "SAY NO TO COMMUNISM" or "OBAMAISM WILL DESTROY US ALL" and other nonsense.

...and then they pay Sarah Palin to come speak at their ~$550/plate convention.

Does the media really need to help them look any nuttier?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:55 PM 
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So basically all you've seen about them is on the "popular press".

As far as the article goes, it's a bunch of whining about republicans when the democrats do the exact same shit, imagine that.

As far as I'm concerned grid lock is a good thing, if they can't get anything done then they can't pass anymore fucking spending bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:11 PM 
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1. The tea baggers are mostly morons who will be manipulated for a brief while

2. Is this forum really just people like Fribur posting links to articles saying "fuck yeah!"? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:40 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:00 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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Quote:
As far as the article goes, it's a bunch of whining about republicans when the democrats do the exact same shit, imagine that.


Yes, they do, but for the third time, not as often, and not as well. It's the Republicans that figured it out, and it's the Republicans that do it so well right now. I heard on the news this morning that Republicans have filibustered more than twice as often on average than Democrats did during Bush. The fact that we all on these boards pointed out that the Democrats were getting rolled and the Republicans were getting everything they wanted back then is clear evidence that the Democrats weren't doing it like the Republicans are now. As the article said, 80%.... 80 fucking percent of major legislation is being filibustered now. This compares to an average of once a *decade* for a hundred years up to the Civil War. Surely you can admit there's a problem here. It's fucked up, and like it or not, it's the Republicans that figured out it can win elections. How else can you explain some Republicans filibustering their OWN legislation priorities when they realize that Democrats were going to back it too? Fucked up, sir.

Orme, I was just hoping this would spark a conversation. So far, it hasn't really worked. This is the first time in ages I've posted an article like this, so I'm unsure why you post as though this is all the forums are for.


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:39 AM 
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tea parties = lol

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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:21 AM 
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they have somewhat "changed the rules" for a filibuster these days. No longer must one pull a "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" type non-stop talkfest. One group just has to ask for a vote of cloture - which requires 60 votes and that is all. Funny enough it was the Democrats in 1975 that brought in the rules that are in place today.

Which just hammers home the point: Don't pass laws/rules that you don't want enforced on you.


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:50 AM 
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Part of the problem and reasons for those filibusters is because of the issues being pushed. Democrats can't even agree themselves.

I do find it odd that an article talking about filibusters (blaming Republicans) comes out when the previous year the Democrats had filibuster proof power and still couldn't get shit through. Dems should look at unifying their own damn party, not what the Republicans will or won't agree with.


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:11 AM 
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Tuluvian, that goes back to my previous point in another thread. I am *thankful* that the Democrats still struggled to get a filibuster proof majority with 60 members. From my viewpoint, that shows a party less idealogical and more willing to consider specifics in a bill-- a good thing.

Evan Bayh, the retiring senator from Indiana, talked about this recently. Here's a cut and paste of a statement he made. I like the reforms he suggests-- practical beginnings to try and restart a working Congress.



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BASEBALL may be our national pastime, but the age-old tradition of taking a swing at Congress is a sport with even deeper historical roots in the American experience. Since the founding of our country, citizens from Ben Franklin to David Letterman have made fun of their elected officials. Milton Berle famously joked: “You can lead a man to Congress, but you can’t make him think.” These days, though, the institutional inertia gripping Congress is no laughing matter.

Challenges of historic import threaten America’s future. Action on the deficit, economy, energy, health care and much more is imperative, yet our legislative institutions fail to act. Congress must be reformed.

There are many causes for the dysfunction: strident partisanship, unyielding ideology, a corrosive system of campaign financing, gerrymandering of House districts, endless filibusters, holds on executive appointees in the Senate, dwindling social interaction between senators of opposing parties and a caucus system that promotes party unity at the expense of bipartisan consensus.

Many good people serve in Congress. They are patriotic, hard-working and devoted to the public good as they see it, but the institutional and cultural impediments to change frustrate the intentions of these well-meaning people as rarely before. It was not always thus.

While romanticizing the Senate of yore would be a mistake, it was certainly better in my father’s time. My father, Birch Bayh, represented Indiana in the Senate from 1963 to 1981. A progressive, he nonetheless enjoyed many friendships with moderate Republicans and Southern Democrats.

One incident from his career vividly demonstrates how times have changed. In 1968, when my father was running for re-election, Everett Dirksen, the Republican leader, approached him on the Senate floor, put his arm around my dad’s shoulder, and asked what he could do to help. This is unimaginable today.

When I was a boy, members of Congress from both parties, along with their families, would routinely visit our home for dinner or the holidays. This type of social interaction hardly ever happens today and we are the poorer for it. It is much harder to demonize someone when you know his family or have visited his home. Today, members routinely campaign against each other, raise donations against each other and force votes on trivial amendments written solely to provide fodder for the next negative attack ad. It’s difficult to work with members actively plotting your demise.

Any improvement must begin by changing the personal chemistry among senators. More interaction in a non-adversarial atmosphere would help.

I’m beginning my 12th year in the Senate and only twice have all the senators gathered for something other than purely ceremonial occasions. The first was during my initial week in office. President Bill Clinton had been impeached and the Senate had to conduct his trial. This hadn’t happened since 1868, and there were no rules in place for conducting the proceedings.

All of us gathered in the Old Senate Chamber. For several hours we debated how to proceed. Finally, Ted Kennedy and Phil Gramm, ideological opposites, were given the task of forging a compromise. They did, and it was unanimously ratified.

The second occasion was just days after Sept. 11. Every senator who could make it to Washington gathered in the Senate dining room to discuss the American response. The nation had been attacked. The building in which we sat had been among the targets, and only the heroism of the passengers prevented the plane from reaching its destination. We had to respond to protect the country. There were no Republicans or Democrats in the room that day, just Americans. The spirit of patriotism and togetherness was palpable. That atmosphere prevailed for only two or three weeks before politics once again intervened.

It shouldn’t take a constitutional crisis or an attack on the nation to create honest dialogue in the Senate. Let’s start with a simple proposal: why not have a monthly lunch of all 100 senators? Every week, the parties already meet for a caucus lunch. Democrats gather in one room, Republicans in another, and no bipartisan interaction takes place. With a monthly lunch of all senators, we could pick a topic and have each side make a brief presentation followed by questions and answers. Listening to one another, absent the posturing and public talking points, could only promote greater understanding, which is necessary to real progress.

Perhaps from this starting point, we can move onto more intractable problems, like the current campaign finance system that has such a corrosive effect on Congress. In the Senate, raising in small increments the $10 million to $20 million a competitive race requires takes huge amounts of time that could otherwise be spent talking with constituents, legislating or becoming well-versed on public policy. In my father’s time there was a saying: “A senator legislates for four years and campaigns for two.” Because of the incessant need to raise campaign cash, we now have perpetual campaigns. If fund-raising is constantly on members’ minds, it’s difficult for policy compromise to trump political calculation.

The recent Supreme Court ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, allowing corporations and unions to spend freely on ads explicitly supporting or opposing political candidates, will worsen matters. The threat of unlimited amounts of negative advertising from special interest groups will only make members more beholden to their natural constituencies and more afraid of violating party orthodoxies.

I can easily imagine vulnerable members approaching a corporation or union for support and being told: “We’d love to support you, but we have a rule. We only support candidates who are with us at least 90 percent of the time. Here is our questionnaire with our top 10 concerns. Fill it out.” Millions of campaign dollars now ride on the member’s response. The cause of good government is not served.

What to do? While fundamental campaign finance reform may ultimately require a constitutional amendment, there are less drastic steps we can take to curb the distorting influence of money in politics. Congress should consider ways to lessen the impact of the Citizens United decision through legislation to enhance disclosure requirements, require corporate donors to appear in the political ads they finance and prohibit government contractors or bailout beneficiaries from spending money on political campaigns.

Congress and state legislators should also consider incentives, including public matching funds for smaller contributions, to expand democratic participation and increase the influence of small donors relative to corporations and other special interests.

In addition, the Senate should reform a practice increasingly abused by both parties, the filibuster. Historically, the filibuster was employed to ensure that momentous issues receive a full and fair hearing. Instead, it has come to serve the exact opposite purpose - to prevent the Senate from even conducting routine business.

Last fall, the Senate had to overcome two successive filibusters to pass a bill to provide millions of Americans with extended unemployment insurance. There was no opposition to the bill; it passed on a 98-0 vote. But some senators saw political advantage in drawing out debate, thus preventing the Senate from addressing other pressing matters.

Admittedly, I have participated in filibusters. If not abused, the filibuster can foster consensus-building. The minority has a right to voice legitimate concerns, but it must not employ this tactic to prevent progress on everything at a critical juncture for our country. We need to reduce the power of the minority to frustrate progress while still affording them some say.

Filibusters have proliferated because under current rules just one or two determined senators can stop the Senate from functioning. Today, the mere threat of a filibuster is enough to stop a vote; senators are rarely asked to pull all-nighters like Jimmy Stewart in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.”

For this reason, filibusters should require 35 senators to sign a public petition and make a commitment to continually debate an issue in reality, not just in theory. Those who obstruct the Senate should pay a price in public notoriety and physical exhaustion. That would lead to a significant decline in frivolous filibusters.

Filibusters should also be limited to no more than one for any piece of legislation. Currently, the decision to begin debate on a bill can be filibustered, followed by another filibuster on each amendment, followed by yet another filibuster before a final vote. This leads to multiple legislative delays and effectively grinds the Senate to a halt.

What’s more, the number of votes needed to overcome a filibuster should be reduced to 55 from 60. During my father’s era, filibusters were commonly used to block civil rights legislation and, in 1975, the requisite number of votes was reduced to 60 from 67. The challenges facing the country today are so substantial that further delay imperils the Republic and warrants another reduction in the supermajority requirement.

Of course, the genesis of a good portion of the gridlock in Congress does not reside in Congress itself. Ultimate reform will require each of us, as voters and Americans, to take a long look in the mirror, because in many ways, our representatives in Washington reflect the people who have sent them there.

The most ideologically devoted elements in both parties must accept that not every compromise is a sign of betrayal or an indication of moral lassitude. When too many of our citizens take an all-or-nothing approach, we should not be surprised when nothing is the result.

Our most strident partisans must learn to occasionally sacrifice short-term tactical political advantage for the sake of the nation. Otherwise, Congress will remain stuck in an endless cycle of recrimination and revenge. The minority seeks to frustrate the majority, and when the majority is displaced it returns the favor. Power is constantly sought through the use of means which render its effective use, once acquired, impossible.

What is required from members of Congress and the public alike is a new spirit of devotion to the national welfare beyond party or self-interest. In a time of national peril, with our problems compounding, we must remember that more unites us as Americans than divides us.

Meeting America’s profound challenges and reforming Congress will not be easy. Old habits die hard. Special interests are entrenched. Still, my optimism as I serve out the remainder of my final term in the Senate is undiminished. With the right reforms, members of Congress can once again embody our best selves and our highest aspirations.

In my final 11 months, I will advocate for the reforms that will help Congress function as it once did, so that our generation can do what Americans have always done: convey to our children, and our children’s children, an America that is stronger, more prosperous, more decent and more just.

Evan Bayh


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:57 PM 
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there is no way to fix congress other than killing em all and starting over... That's the way it's set up, the same system in place to prevent radical changes for the bad also prevents them for the good


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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:58 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Rave: Times article
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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I'm glad you're still around, Lou :). Post more often!


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