It is currently Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:17 AM


All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:38 PM 
10 Years? God im old!
10 Years? God im old!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:58 AM
Posts: 877
It started with this story that was posted:

Quote:
Billboards on Tampa Bay roads duel over existence of God(Link)

By Dong-Phuong Nguyen, Times Staff Writer

Published Sunday, February 7, 2010

Quote:
Image
Two billboards, in Hillsborough County near Fowler Avenue and 17th Street and in Pinellas County near Ulmerton Road and U.S. 19, are the latest in a publicity blitz over religion. They are part of a national advertising campaign by the United Coalition of Reason.


A group representing people who do not believe in God or any gods has revved up an awareness campaign in Hillsborough and Pinellas counties.

The United Coalition of Reason paid to have two billboards erected that feature a blue sky with clouds and the words: "Are you good without God? Millions are."

The move is the latest in an advertising blitz involving religion that has people talking.

Six months ago, a retired businessman paid $50,000 to rent 10 billboards in Pinellas and Hillsborough counties that denounce the separation of church and state.

The United Coalition of Reason is spending about $100,000 to blast its message on billboards, bus shelters and transit stations across the nation, said Fred Edwords, national director for the coalition.

In addition to the Tampa Bay area, ads have popped up in places like Seattle, San Diego and Iowa.

"People are saying, 'Geez, where have you been all my life? I didn't know you existed. I thought I was the only one who thought this way,' " Edwords said of the reaction.

Message for masses

Whether or not you believe in God, putting the topic in the public domain is noteworthy, said advertising expert Harold Vincent, an instructor at the University of South Florida's Zimmerman Advertising Program.

"Hallelujah, First Amendment," Vincent said. "I would hope that most people can at least appreciate how in a country such as ours that there is a forum for open debate and for people to share ideas with others."

Billboards are one of the last true mass-media vehicles and are effective because they are seen by more than a single demographic, Vincent said.

"There are 100-plus television stations, a plethora of Web sites. … With the large amount of media that is out there, it is very hard to draw a broad cross section of the general public," he said. Billboards are "one of the most highly effective mediums because it hits a geographically diverse target."

That means Christians see the billboards, too.

Activist Terry Kemple, whose public policy group was behind last year's 10 billboards calling the separation of church and state a "lie," criticized the Coalition of Reason as "not having very much reason."

"It flies in the face of rationality to believe that we can live in this complex world we live in and not have some master designer who created it," he said. But "we live in America. It's their privilege to put up inaccurate information if they choose to do that."

Signs stay up a month

The latest billboards have spurred debate, as expected, but the coalition said it created the advertisements mostly as a way to bring nonbelievers together.

The coalition's goal is to raise the visibility of its local societies, including here, where the Tampa Bay Coalition of Reason has just formed and is seeking members, Edwords said.

The national organization takes information from groups such as humanists, atheists and secularists, and brings it together in one place.

It offers the groups Web hosting and free public relations training while also funding publicity campaigns.

The two 14- by 48-foot billboards cost $7,600 for four weeks, Edwords said.

The messages went up Jan. 25 and will stay up for a month. More than 35,000 people a day are expected to see the sign on Fowler Avenue near 17th Street in Tampa and along Ulmerton Road just east of U.S. 19 near Largo, according to Clear Channel Outdoor, which owns the billboards.

One motorist who has seen the Fowler Avenue billboard is Yassel Quijano, a massage therapist from Town 'N Country who practices Wicca.

Quijano said people may not agree with the message, but that's what's great about living in a free country.

"People have the right to just express what they want, what they feel," Quijano said. "I'm sure there are a lot of people who are afraid of saying it. Someone had the courage to do something like that. For me, that's something I admire."


It caused quite a discussion on the Fark Forums.(Link) Here is some fun highlights that were posted.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:06 PM 
Selling 50 Orc Belts!
Selling 50 Orc Belts!

Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:55 PM
Posts: 703
I like that people have the option to speak their mind, however retarded that may be on either side of any given issue!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:31 PM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Posts: 4156
Location: Atlanta, GA
EQ1: Vanamar
WoW: Kallaystra
Rift: Tarathia
discussions on fark should stay on fark, imo. don't bring them here.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:10 PM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:34 AM
Posts: 1969
Location: Porkopolis
EQ1: Draagun Dwarvepunter
WoW: Draagun
We put up a billboard in Cincinnati and it got moved.

Image

http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/11/12 ... aken-down/

The free publicity was great. Membership surged.

We have a pretty nice size group of atheists here that meet a few times a month for food, lectures and general shenanigans.

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:35 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Back when I was an atheist, the thought of getting together with a bunch of other atheists seemed absurd. What do you guys talk about?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:44 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
The same stuff any other group of people would talk about? Common interests?

What do religious people talk about when they get together? Just religion? Would they be totally bored without it?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:51 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Of course, none of this would be an issue if religious zealots didn't feel the need to attack everything around them that doesn't agree with them. Or keep trying to teach their religion in schools, etc.

Can't you guys just leave people alone?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:56 AM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:34 AM
Posts: 1969
Location: Porkopolis
EQ1: Draagun Dwarvepunter
WoW: Draagun
It's usually just a social gathering.

We don't all sit around and talk about how much we "hate god" (which is what a lot of people think)

Brunch last week I spent 2 hours talking to an electrical engineer and a guy that owns his own trucking business about our career paths. It is just a nice social network.

The people here are also involved in camp quest: http://www.camp-quest.org/ We do have speakers come to the FIG meetings. Last meeting we had a Judith Snyderman from the Final Exit Network. It is a "right to die" organization. Which was interesting.

Before that it was Tim Madigan, a philosopher.

Mostly though, it is just a place for people that see the benefit of the social organization of a church, but don't believe in a god.

We talk about everything really, it is a very diverse group. When I first started going, I was surprised at the people that were over 60. Before I went, for some reason, I thought it was going to be a bunch of "comic book store" guys (like the Simpsons), but, it is mostly older (30 and up) professionals and several retried people. We do have some younger folks too. It is a very mixed bag, with only one "comic book store" guy =P

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:41 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Damn Bov, I was just curious. You're doing what you're decrying.

Quote:
Mostly though, it is just a place for people that see the benefit of the social organization of a church, but don't believe in a god.
That sounds great, actually. One of the best things about my church is the fact that my kids get to socialize with other kids outside of school. Thanks for responding honestly, Draagun.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:48 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
I only replied to the question with an attempt at adding some perspective...since you considered it "absurd" that athiests would gather and talk, I just figured that maybe asking what religious people talk about - other than religion - might shed some light on it.

The second post wasn't directed at you, more to the original post.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:55 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Well, I've been an atheist longer in my life than I have been a Christian, so I was just expressing my opinion when I was one.

The downside to either group, and what I don't like about my Sunday school group, is that you limit outside perspectives by making it a Christian-based group or an atheist-based group. Especially when talking philosophy. Still, it's great for socializing and meeting people outside of work (my main problem), so there's definitely value.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:09 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Well...outside viewpoints can be great for some topics, but when it comes to religion vs. athiesm, it really isn't going to do much. It's just going to eventually come down to "god this" or "no-god that" and it'll just be bleh.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:32 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
This should be such a non-issue. The churches in those areas are handling it wrong (surprised?).

They should put up an "answer" billboard that has a similar background and font saying "God is still with you", "God still believes in you", or something like that. It would totally neuter the original message.

There is no need to fight the COR message. Fighting it gives it more attention (as was mentioned above).


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
The churches in those areas are handling it wrong (surprised?).


They're both handling it wrong because religion - or lack thereof - is such a deeply personal thing. You can't advertise it, push people into it, guilt people into it, scare people into it, etc etc.

Heck, if I had children, I wouldn't even tell them what to believe. It's their choice. If they asked I'd tell them what I believe, but also explain that it doesn't mean they have to believe the same thing.

Why there's so much combat between the two "sides" is beyond me. It's not even hard for them to co-exist...like I read one scientist say: (Hugely paraphrased because I can't remember it exactly.) "What better way to worship and celebrate God's creation than to study, learn and appreciate it fully?"

Science isn't anti-God. Plenty of scientists are religious people. There doesn't have to be this huge rift between them.

But the somehow you get these extremists thinking that thought and science are evil ("A free thinker is satans slave"?? Racism, sodomy and greed are from evolution??) and trying to get schools to teach that the earth is 6,000 years old and fossils are fake and Noah's Flood hid all the creatures under dirt to trick us...

If that's what you want to believe, fine. But make it what YOU believe, not what you try to get everyone else to believe. Faith and belief are too personal a topic to be hammered into someone elses' head.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:16 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
But if you believe that someone else who doesn't share your faith will burn in an eternal hell, then you should feel morally obligated to try and save them from their error, right?

Putting it in another context, if I know that the bridge you are about to drive on is about to collapse into the canyon the next time a car is on it, but I don't tell you because I should respect your belief that it's safe....

This particular canyon, for some religious people, is endless and filled with undying agony. Can't you then understand why they would feel compelled to try to change your mind?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:12 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Well, for one..."Hell" has become quite the unpopular topic it seems. At least among people I interact with, there's a lot of "I don't believe in hell" going around.

But that's really beside the point, I realize.

One thing that has to be first understood...if you're making a parallel between faith, bridges, hell and canyons you must also realize that the athiest you're talking to doesn't even see this bridge and canyon you're talking about.

You can go on and on about the bridge being unsafe and the canyon being all deep and dangerous, and the athiest is just going to look over at where you're pointing and see a flat piece of land and shrug.

But that's also beside the point, I realize.

In any case, if some guy really believes that everyone is going to burn in some hell if those people don't believe the way he believes - ignoring the obviously impressive narcissistic complex that guy must have - then perhaps try to act like a mentor or a guide to people who want to have faith, not a marketing executive trying to sell it to those who aren't interested.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:21 PM 
Train Right Side!
Train Right Side!

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:56 PM
Posts: 1031
Oh joy.

Another "Religion" thread at the Lanys forums.

Because we've never done that before.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:22 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
I understand what and why they are trying to do. It is the HOW.

There is nothing wrong with a group of like minded, law abiding people that want to advertise their group/gathering. It should be encouraged in today's world.

If the church wants to "save" those people or have them accept God into their lives then bashing them about how bad this group is is not the way to do it.

It is NOT our job to decide who is and who isn't going to spend eternity in paradise. It is our job to live peacefully with one another, be able to provide for ourselves & families and to teach our children to do the same.

Also, I have heard your paraphrased quote before and believe that is what we are supposed to be doing.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:22 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
/me patiently awaits Cuchu's thread to be posted that covers a totally new and original topic.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:50 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Bovinity, I'm not asking you to accept the canyon or the bridge. I was only pointing out the clear motivation that a Christian would have to try to convince you that he or she is right. In fact, I don't really understand why a Christian wouldn't want to save as many people as they could from such a horrible fate. The whole, "I keep my faith to myself" thing really doesn't make sense in that context, unless you are a real ass that WANTS people to spent eternity in that kind of torment.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:53 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
Bovinity, I'm not asking you to accept the canyon or the bridge.


I know. That's why I said I knew it was beside the point. But I figured I'd give a little perspective from my side of the tracks.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:04 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
This is a really difficult topic to talk about without risking being perceived as insulting or condescending though...

Because, frankly, to all those of us that don't see that "bridge" or "canyon"...what do you think the guy running around frantically telling us about it - in a variety of insulting, threatening, badgering, desperate, berating, disciplining and condescending tones - sounds like?

That's why these conversations - and likewise, getting groups with opposing viewpoints together - is generally a recipie for disaster.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:52 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
I chuckled at the "Well, you did ask for a sign".


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:48 AM 
Froaaak!!!
Froaaak!!!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:10 AM
Posts: 1859
Location: San Antonio, TX
EQ1: Rugen Payne
WoW: Mathaen
That letter to the editor by "Alice Shannon" had me curious. Interesting story there, heh.

http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/030 ... e001.shtml

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:52 AM 
Avatar of War
Avatar of War

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Posts: 179
The idea of a gathering for people who don't believe in something sounds kinda silly to me. It would be no different than joining a group that doesn't believe in unicorns. Let's face it, it's really not a group of people who don't believe in god, its a group for people who are anti-religion. That's perfectly fine, but call it what it is.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:05 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I don't think so, Kitiari.

I would really enjoy finding an atheistic group that met regularly around my home. Why? Because while Christians claim to be "persecuted," it feels just the opposite in my area. I cannot admit to my doubts about the existence of God in my community, or I would be ostracized. It would be refreshing to meet other people like me in my area, but there is no vehicle for such encounters. Couldn't there be such a meeting place just to get a chance to meet people who think the way you do, without it necessarily being anti-anything else?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:19 AM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 AM
Posts: 1656
Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Sarissa Candyangel
WoW: Sarix
Because the topic of conversation would likely be related to the thread that holds you together to begin with. ;) It's a personal choice. Announcing a lack of faith carries no reward with it. If one doesn't care to believe, it should translate to their care to discuss it que no? Unless it's very important that people care about knowing how much you don't care.

It doesn't make a person special. Most people sitting in church don't believe either.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:21 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Not that complicated for me. It would just be nice to be able to have a social situation where I don't have to constantly pretend I agree with random comments about God's work in people's lives.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:23 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Wow. Ostracized? Somehow, living in arch-conservative Georgia, I was able to be an "out" and vocal atheist AND married to a black woman and I never felt ostracized. It's 2010 - it's really not as bad as you think.

Even if it were, maybe you should try it, and see how it feels. Standing up for your beliefs can be kind of nice.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:31 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I'm a public school teacher teaching a subject that is very public in nature, in a conservative area. The job market is bad. My doubts about the existence of God are not important enough to risk losing my job or my students. I'm not interested in having parents pull their kids out of my elective courses because they worry about the evil influence I may have on their kids.

And if you doubt that reality, then you really don't understand the nature of jobs like mine in places like mine.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:35 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
The idea of a gathering for people who don't believe in something sounds kinda silly to me. It would be no different than joining a group that doesn't believe in unicorns. Let's face it, it's really not a group of people who don't believe in god, its a group for people who are anti-religion. That's perfectly fine, but call it what it is.


Why? How's it different from any other group that gathers on the foundation of common interests and views?

Like Fribur said, it'd be nice to be able to talk to a group of people about various philosophical and scientific matters without the issue of religion muddling things and causing inevitable gridlock in the discussions and snap judgements about one another based on beliefs and whatnot.

This is going to come off as a bit of stereotyping...but I mean really, ever try having a discussion about morals, philosophy, science or any number of other topics with a die-hard christian? Unless they're exceptionally open-minded, you're just going to hit the "God" brick wall less than a minute into the discussion. It's pretty frustrating...but it's to be expected since God pretty much defines their world view.

And yeah, the poor persecuted christian thing is pretty amusing. Kinda like poor persecuted white male landowners.

(Also, you just equated religion to unicorns, I love it. =D )


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:54 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
I'm having a hard time figuring out what bad things would happen if people knew you were an atheist, Fribur.

Though, I also have a hard time understanding what your concern is. What exactly is it that you want to do, that you don't feel you can do? You want to be able to wear atheist t-shirts?

I've been a liberal in a conservative small town. Never had a problem standing up for my beliefs during the Bush years and being vocal about it. Including going to a very small Baptist church.

I've been a white guy married to a black woman in small-town Georgia. Never felt like I had to stay inside my house all day, and no one ever burned a cross in my yard.

I'm a liturgist in my church and everyone knows I am vocal about my support of full civil rights for gays, including marriage. Nothing bad has happened.

So, I guess I just have a really hard time relating to you.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:55 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
As for the ostracized stuff...most of the time (for me at least) it's more of a "low hum" sort of thing. I don't get people telling me to my face that I suck, but everywhere you look it seems like people are talking about how terrible life would be without god, how someone without god can't have any morals or values, how godless people must be bad people, how people without god are going to burn in some lake of fire or just generally be miserable, sad, pathetic, aimless beings.

...and it's totally accepted. It's considered the "norm" really. They can just go on and on about it right in front of everyone and it's not objectionable at all in the circles I've been in.

No matter what they say, you can't speak up and disagree or something. Because then YOU'RE the one causing the dissent and being unreasonable and "talking about religion" and crap.

So yeah, it's not like people throw tomatoes at me, but it does get old. I can only imagine what it was like being black/gay/etc and having everyone around you talk about how people of your sort were inhernetly lesser in some way. =/


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:57 AM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:46 AM
Posts: 1398
WoW: Drajeck
Kitiari wrote:
The idea of a gathering for people who don't believe in something sounds kinda silly to me. It would be no different than joining a group that doesn't believe in unicorns. Let's face it, it's really not a group of people who don't believe in god, its a group for people who are anti-religion. That's perfectly fine, but call it what it is.


Maybe they could talk about how they still stay motivated to treat others with kindness and follow a positive moral code even without the fear of eternal damnation or the promised reward of heaven. That's not a joke, I think that is one of the reasons religion is so important to the world, it is the moral compass for many people, even if it is not always followed. Not believing in god is absolutely not equivilant to anti-religion, that would effectively mean you are anti-unicorn.

I also agree with Krby that his suggested rebuttle signs would be much more effective.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:58 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Joxur: You're also not a teacher. And you don't live where he does, with the people he does.

C'mon. Don't even try to sit there and pretend you have no idea what Fribur is talking about. And don't try to act like your situation is everyone elses' situation.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:05 AM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Posts: 4156
Location: Atlanta, GA
EQ1: Vanamar
WoW: Kallaystra
Rift: Tarathia
Georgia is FAR more accepting of alternative religious beliefs (even in small towns) than you find in small towns in the Midwest from my experience (mostly in Iowa/Illinois)

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
I'm just trying to urge Fribur to stand up for his beliefs. That's bad?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:44 AM 
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:01 PM
Posts: 561
Fribur,

Have you thought of moving? Teachers in NJ get paid fairly well, in 20 something years I've been in and out of here I have yet to hear anyone talking about a church unless it's the bullshit they put them through to get married. Only thing talked about on Sunday's is football.

If any interest will gladly send some school names.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:44 AM 
Selling 50 Orc Belts!
Selling 50 Orc Belts!

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:09 PM
Posts: 650
Location: Texas
EQ1: Xantheus
WoW: Xantheus
And in other news, Texas stands behind some bullshit barring Atheists from holding public office.

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/122009 ... 4882.shtml


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:44 AM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
Maybe they could talk about how they still stay motivated to treat others with kindness and follow a positive moral code even without the fear of eternal damnation or the promised reward of heaven. That's not a joke, I think that is one of the reasons religion is so important to the world, it is the moral compass for many people, even if it is not always followed.


This is one of the most serious points in the religions vs. athiesm topic.

I can do good without the threat of punshiment or the promise of a reward.

I can smile at someone and hold a door for them without hoping god noticed and is happy with me.

I can refrain from taking the money out of that dropped wallet just because I don't feel it's right, not because I'm concerned that god will be upset.

But then I hear some people talking at work...or at a store...or even on TV or online...and they're saying that without god you can't have any morals. You can't have any values, you can't really be a good person.

You can try to avoid the fact, but the reality is that they're making specific statements about a group of people. They're personally talking about me and anyone else that doesn't believe.

They're saying I am inherently a bad person. That I have no morals. That I have no values. That I don't know right from wrong. That I would just commit rape and murder and who knows what else just because of my lack of faith.

That would be fine if it were just some nutjobs saying it, but the fact is that it's the norm right now in our society. We live in a society that has so far been pretty successful in openly denying gays their rights because of what religion says.

Where many people (Almost a majority, if some polls are to be believed) still thinks science is a crock and the world is 6,000 years old.

Where school boards in some areas still don't want evolution and other concepts taught because they oppose their religious beliefs and parents pull their kids out of schools for fear of having them corrupted by devil science.

Where medical advances with potentially amazing benefits are stifled because of religious concerns.

Where zealots openly commit murder and are lauded by their peers for their wonderful act.

Where members of our government base significant parts of their platforms on religion and concepts from the bible.

Yeah...it's no wonder that some of us are eager to get away from it all and find people that won't pile this stuff on us because of what they read in some ancient, oft-rewritten, storybook. Call it silly, call it ridiculous, call it anti-unicorn if you want. Whatever.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:47 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Yes, it's bad. It's not worth the possibility of losing my job, a job that I love. It's not worth destroying a band program I've spent the last four years rebuilding. The positives aren't worth the negative.

You don't stand up for your beliefs on these boards, you know. People post horrible shit about Christianity all the time, yet you generally ignore it. I'm ok with that, because I understand it. In this context, to you, the positive of doing so isn't worth the negatives, for you. The stakes for you to do it here are very low, yet you still stay out of it. Yet for some reason, when I have much more at stake (my job, my livelihood, and a music program at a school), you cannot accept that it makes more sense for me to keep it to myself.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:35 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
I don't use these boards as an outlet for my religious beliefs. My family and relationships in my community and church are my outlets for that. It's fun to rant about politics and gaming, but my religious beliefs are personal. I also have Christian beliefs that are unconventional, such as my total support of gay rights. Another is that having been an atheist for 15 years, I know how i would have reacted to a preachy Christian, so I don't try to be one. I know how I felt when I saw a Christian trying to be perfect, so I don't try to be perfect. I am who I am, and I'm not going to change who I am to fit someone else's preconceived notions of how a Christian should act. I cuss, I support gay rights, I like to have kinky sex with my wife while we watch porn. The reason I don't react when you attack my Christianity is because I am rock solid in what and who I am.

But then, I'm not complaining about a lack of an outlet. You are complaining that you can't be more free with your beliefs. There's nothing for me to fix, but there's obviously a need you're not fulfilling right now.

Anyhoo, on to something else... I will concede that your profession exposes you more than my job, for example. But having been in your shoes for more than half my life, I think the positives DO outweigh the negatives. But I will also concede that I can't convince you of it, so moving on to something achievable:

Are you sure there aren't groups like Draagun is associated with that you can pow-wow with? You may be surprised. Do you live near any larger metro areas that you can drive to? It might be worth the research. Thought of starting one?

And why not move? Moving around the country has produced some of the most positive experiences of my life. I understand you've built something, and I can relate. But you can build something anywhere. Sometimes a change is the best thing for someone.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:14 PM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:34 AM
Posts: 1969
Location: Porkopolis
EQ1: Draagun Dwarvepunter
WoW: Draagun
Quote:
The idea of a gathering for people who don't believe in something sounds kinda silly to me. It would be no different than joining a group that doesn't believe in unicorns. Let's face it, it's really not a group of people who don't believe in god, its a group for people who are anti-religion. That's perfectly fine, but call it what it is.


Most of us aren't anti-religion, we are just trying to build that wall between church and state. I can't speak for anyone, but I personally don't care what anyone believes as long as they are keeping it out of govt. I have found that to be true of most of the people I met in our organization.

People are always going to believe wacky crap. As long as my tax dollars aren't being used for it, or policy isn't being made based on it, what do I care?

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:52 PM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:46 AM
Posts: 1398
WoW: Drajeck
I wonder if the next major civillization will treat our general religious conflicts (Judism, Christianity, Muslim, Athiest etc) the same way we make games about Greek and Egyptian mythologies. Will they wonder how we could have taken ourselves seriously while they all persecute each other about differences I'm sure all the future religions will have? I also wonder if commoners from the Roman empire thought that way about cavemen and the animal spirits they worshipped? Seems like an endless cycle to me and something that will continue forever, or at least as long as humans are around.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:54 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:36 PM 
Avatar of War
Avatar of War

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Posts: 179
DraagunSoulstealer wrote:
Most of us aren't anti-religion, we are just trying to build that wall between church and state.

That's very different than a group of atheist though, at least you have a purpose that I can understand far easier than a group of people built around the non-belief of something.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:41 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
I'll ask again, what's so strange about people of similar beliefs and philosophies gathering? You seem to be really baffled by the idea.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:19 PM 
Destroyer of Douchenozzles
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:13 AM
Posts: 2102
EQ1: Givin
WoW: Tacklebery
Hey guys. I have this super friend who is very keen about religion and stuff I'm going to ask him to come take part in this discussion alright.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:31 PM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:46 AM
Posts: 1398
WoW: Drajeck
That got a chuckle.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:51 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
nice, heh. in the rain


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:22 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:39 AM
Posts: 1651
Location: North Carolina
haha

_________________
Marauder Harabakc Goat


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:19 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I don't move because I love my job, and because I have a serious girlfriend here who for various reasons wants to stay here.

Also, moving is extreme. I never said this bullshit is ruining my life. I only said it would be nice to be able to meet with other people with similar points of view. This is not enough of an impetus to move. Like I already said, I love my job!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:12 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
Back when I was an atheist I don't think it would've crossed my mind to have a social gathering with other atheists. I'm guessing it just depends on where you live. I'm from Seattle, so I probably got enough interaction with atheists to live without the social gatherings :)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:40 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Well, I think part of the confusion comes from the flawed reasoning that being religious is the normal, base state and that being an atheist signifies a hole, void or missing piece and that these people are forming a group that's about that void. Or something.

I think people would understand it a lot better if they realized that religion and atheism are just two different viewpoints and philosophies that people live by - think republican/democrat, capitalist/socialist, etc - and that it should come as no shock that people with similar viewpoints will gather together.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:04 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
I don't know about you guys, but when I meet with my atheist buddies we mostly talk about how to corrupt the youth by undermining their moral character with our fancy yet inscrutable scientific "THEORIES."

We love eating apples too. Big juicy sinful red apples.

Mmmm, sinnnn appppple....


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:09 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
I guess I think of atheism as almost a base neutral state. Babies and children sort of come into life without too many religious thoughts in their heads.

I don't see how it's much different than saying "Hey guys, we all share the common trait of not playing videogames, let's meet up."

Not doing one thing, or not believing in one specific single thing just doesn't seem to me like a big guarantor of common traits.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:54 PM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:34 AM
Posts: 1969
Location: Porkopolis
EQ1: Draagun Dwarvepunter
WoW: Draagun
Well, being an atheist usually one indicator that you have may have more things in common.

Also, most of us have moved on from "I don't believe" to "I don't believe, now what?"
Quote:
FIG Statement of Purpose:

To foster a community of secular humanists dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry and creative thinking unfettered by superstition, religion, or any form of dogma.


FIG Statement of Goals

In accordance with our purpose, we have established the following goals:
* To provide a forum for intelligent exchange of ideas for those seeking fulfillment in an ethical secular life.

* To develop through open discussion the moral basis of a secular society and encourage ethical practices within our own membership and the community at large.

* To inform the public regarding secular alternatives to supernatural interpretations of the human condition.

* To support and defend the principles of democracy, free speech, and separation of church and state as expressed in the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:14 AM 
Lanys Supporter
Lanys Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:46 AM
Posts: 1398
WoW: Drajeck
Venen wrote:
I guess I think of atheism as almost a base neutral state. Babies and children sort of come into life without too many religious thoughts in their heads.

I don't see how it's much different than saying "Hey guys, we all share the common trait of not playing videogames, let's meet up."

Not doing one thing, or not believing in one specific single thing just doesn't seem to me like a big guarantor of common traits.


It's human nature to emulate what is already done by other people. Since such a large part of society is in some form of religious group, it makes sense that athiests would make a group for non-religious people. That is also why there are no "I don't believe in Unicorn" groups, but there would be if millions of other people were involved with groups based on Unicorns and thier obvious existence. This concept is further magnified by how large a role the chuch plays in many peoples lives and what a successful social network role it often plays.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:40 AM 
Avatar of War
Avatar of War

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Posts: 179
Part of my confusion may arise from the fact I can't fathom you being persecuted for not believing in god. I'm not from the US, not being religious is the norm and if you are or are not nobody cares.

So from that perspective I find a group of people who don't believe in something odd. As I said, to me its no different than a group of people who do not believe in unicorns or a support group for those who do not feel the number 7 is lucky.

The first question that popped into my head was what is the real purpose of this group. If I were to tell you I belong to a group of people who do not believe in the holocaust but that we hold no anti-Semitic views and in fact we never talk about the holocaust or Jews and instead sit around sharing apple pie recipes would you nod your head and say "yea that makes perfect sense to me!"

You've explained yourself, I understand based on the context you've described your situation. It's unsettling to know that this degree of religious intolerance still exist in the US today.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:15 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
Ehhh, I don't think it's just a US thing. If it's not one thing, it's something else for other countries. A few of the European countries that I've visited did seem a bit intolerant of various forms and expressions of religion. You'll hear about it more if it happens here, that's for sure.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net
Karma functions powered by Karma MOD © 2007, 2009 m157y