I'm offended that these morons have latched onto the Boston Tea Party as a rallying cry against health care reform.
Is their position really taxation without representation? All of the people I've seen interviewed
A) Will not see an increase in their taxes (not >$350k income)
B) Could actually benefit from health care reform (morons)

Now I hate to just dismiss these folks as being funded by big insurance through several front companies, or just morons who live their lives to Fox News talking points.

I agree with capitalism, but health care, energy, water, gas, and other "necessities" to live "should not be for profit".
Plasma TV's, luxury cars, teeth whitening should be for profit.

I call them country club conservatives because they're not wealthy, but are fighting for the wealthy to keep their money, with some notion that someday when "they make it to the country club" they'll have preserved it. Ask someone who is actually wealthy and they typically say "ya sure, I got plenty, whats a little more taxation." Buffet, Gates, etc.

I'm asking about the actual economics, not the irrational "death squads" or "anti socialistic, anti communism" and other inflamatory rhetoric.


- a guy who knew we were going to war for oil price stability and was cool with it, not for democratic freedom and other jingoistic bullshit.

Based on the title, I was expecting something totally different.

How do you know the income level of someone you saw in an interview?

How do you know they would benefit from health care reform?

Rather presumptuous, aren't you?

Nomads, you know. Smell like cabbage... small hands.

This boggles me more than anything.

Who exactly decides what should be for profit and who doesn’t?

Where’s the line to be drawn exactly, on what is actually a necessity? Why is one thing a luxury good and another not?

If it gets legislated, What’s to stop lobbyists from pushing their agendas to make one thing for profit and one thing not for profit?

That’s just putting more and more control of self-determination and business in Government hands and a bad idea all around.

_________________
"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.

It doesn't boggle me. Markets don't work well when many of the conditions that currently exist in the health care industry exist. Consumers don't know the prices of their care. Doctors have all the information and are generally implicitly trusted (rightfully so, don't get me wrong). Plus, there is no way to have fair pricing when someone is facing emergency care-- most people will pay everything they have if they have to, to have good health in an emergency situation.

I'm not sure what coverage you were watching but from what I saw (I was sampling CNN FOX & MSNBC) the people there had only one thing in common and it wasn't health care reform, it was deficit control.
I struggle to understand how anyone benefits from the current health care reform bills in a macro sense. Yes, individually many families will benefit from the reform but the country won't because
1) it is still a for-profit industry
2) health care is still essentially tied to employment which in turn limits employment opportunity and increases risks for entrepeneurs
3) as the US borrows more and more money from overseas our economy shrinks while theirs grow. There are lots of implications both micro and macro to this unending cycle.



So, if I understand this statement correctly, you would have the government nationalize the following industries: healthcare (something I actually support), utilities, and the gas companies from exploration to retail sales? Why not add in food industries? Most would agree that food is a "necessity".

Things like this certainly don't help.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27155.html

To think that we'd get a government health care plan that is the best for everyone in this political environment (read: from the last 20 years through today and near future) you are dreaming.

The politicians (Republicans and Democrats) SAY that they want to help, but they just care about getting re-elected, lining their pockets, and gaining/staying in power.

If there is anything that is passes it will be a pork laden mess that has so many special favors to lobbing groups that it will make you sick.

And since when is Gas or energy a requirement for life?

We got along quite well for THOUSANDS of years without either one.

Or in the case of food? Humans can survive on some pretty basic items. Obviously we need to only nationalize those few items.

The devil is n the details. Who decides what is actually important? What if something is actually important to me, and not to you? Do you get to tell me no because you don't care?

And when it is under gov;t control. We;ll get that very thing just like Canada has "Well it's life threatening.. in a few months or years. So instead of taking care of it now. its not critical NOW, We'll wait. You're next scheduled appointment is in.. 3 years. Good day"

We already have that in our U.S. Public Health care system NOW. and that's before this healthcare bill B.S.

_________________
"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.

Well, we know it won't be for ACORN this time. lol

This reminds me of several posters here:



Fucking pathetic.

Why do people keep saying this even when Canadian citizens repeatedly debunk it?

So this may or may not be related, but this made me laugh out loud this morning. On TPM, a site very critical of Joe Wilson, there's a note about Joe Wilson both above and below, and what's in the middle? Why, an ad asking for donations to Joe Wilson. heh. Gotta love the Google keyword placement.

Thanks for sharing that Neesha.

FREEDOM! FREEDOM! FREEDOM!

If you go into any crowd you'll always find 10% marching to the beat of their own drummer. It's easy to create your own context in the editing booth. I could dig up videos of people carrying signs calling for Bush's assassination or saying that 9/11 was an inside job, but I'm not even sure there is a point in wasting the time to respond.

Why not add something useful to the discussion rather than insult people that actually do?

I love that deflection argument. Both sides are bad! Nevermind that our whacko fringe is in control, has television and radio spokes persons, and elected representatives that espouse our fringe bullshit. "They do it too!" is not a fucking defense.

People need to stop treating their political party like a fucking sports team.

Magg, get off your high horse already. I just thought it was a funny video. Quit being such a whiny bitch every time I post something that doesn't meet your approval.

Funny that you say that, I just got done ranting at work about how Americans have to treat everything like a sport, and politics is no exception. All about how "My team" is great and "Your team" sucks, etc.

I wish people would just grow up. The entire political stage seems more juvenile than ever lately.

It has nothing to do with sports. That video is propaganda clearly edited to get people like you doing the muppet nod.

Neesha,

How about you actually post something useful rather than call people in this thread "fucking pathetic"?

And you accuse me of being a whiny bitch? Stop and think about that for a second.

You just did it. You just did the exact thing we're talking about.

I didn't comment on the video. I didn't comment on you. I didn't comment on your side. But because you're feeling all defensive about "your side" because of some silly, humorous video Neesha posted, you just had to lash out at me and my comments.

Actually, I was responding to Bzalthek. I'm protected by my own ambiguity, thank you very much.

Am I being a whiny bitch by coming here complaining about posts? Or was that you who did that? I am sorry I attempted to inject a little humor into the thread. Why don't you find out who your wife is banging and have a talk with her about it? Or talk to your boss and find out once and for all if your job is safe? Or talk to the bill collector about coming up with a payment plan? Or do whatever the fuck you have to do to stop being a pissy bitch every single time you post? Whatever life problems you are having are definitely showing in your posts. Life isn't that bad, my man. If yours is, take steps to improve it.

Find the old (post-EQ) Magg and bring him back. The new "bitter-at-the-world-and-better-than-you" one isn't that impressive.

I'm not siding with anyone in that video (I only watched the first minute and I'd seen enough).

I'm taking issue with blantant propaganda (and Neesha's insults). That video is designed to galvanize support for health care reform and it does so by focusing solely on fringe elements. It's produced by a partisan organization. People who support health care reform will naturally be incensed by the video and some will assume that everyone at that rally was guilty by association.

Neesha...

Find out who my wife is banging? Quit being a bitter, lonely old man. I think we both know why you're upset at me (although it was news to me). I had no idea that you were so petty.

Heh, just watched the video.

I wish it weren't true, but that's not the "fringe element" anymore except to people in denial. That's called the Republican Base.

This really has nothing to do with what you think it does (because frankly, I don't blame you for doing what you did) and everything to do with virtually every post I have seen you make in the last month.

No shit the video was produced by a partisan organization and the same exact videos on the other side of the fence probably exist somewhere as well. I just thought it was funny to see people, even redneck idiots, who are on a huge crusade and don't even know what they are crusading about. Czars are Russians omg@!!@!!

I think that's what the authors of the video would have you believe. It's easier to dismiss your opponents if you can successfully portray them as radical lunatics.

Neesha,

I'm sure there are similar videos on the other side of the fence. I think they're equally ridiculous! Arguments I had with stubborn "you know who" hardly represent my attitude in general. I think you're being particularly vicious lately. Telling me I should find who my wife is cheating on me with hardly puts you in a position of objectivity. That's a damn crude thing for anyone to say.

Try reading it in context. Should I have gone with "find the assholes who ran over your puppy?" The point wasn't that your wife was cheating on you or that I even though that, it was that whatever it is that is going on with you in the fancy real world is directly impacting your posts (at least, in my opinion). It was crude, yes, and perhaps I am wrong in my assumption (wouldn't be the first time). The evidence is there, though, you'll agree.

I don't agree. I think you extrapolated my comments in that thread to encompass my attitude on the whole. I've had more heated exchanges in the same vein in the past. Honestly, my life is going really well right now although I am a little bored waiting for school to start up again at the end of the month.

Doodz, in the grand scheme of things all this discussion and anger will amount to nothing. Cuz like, all we are is dust in the wind man.

LOL, nice one Jeka.

Says the guy who can't post anything on the political forum that isn't either: 1) in all caps; or 2) a one-liner.

When was the last time you wrote anything meaningful here?

Sure, Jox. Sure.

What's worse? Idiots concerned about the right thing or people like you, who spend more time making fun of them than actually thinking critically about whether or not we should have 30+ government employees in high leadership positions with no government oversight.

From an admin promising more transparency.

I'll take the smartass who understands the implications of what they're talking about over the idiot who doesn't understand what it is that they are arguing against any day.

That's a rather broad assumption.

Let's use an example.

I could find you half a dozen posts from some left-leaning Lanys luminaries posting the exact same bullshit one-liner that Neesha posted. Let me paraphrase. "ACORN is teh debil omg omg1!11!!!!" - was that about right? Anyhoo - laughing off criticism of the organization. To your point, a lot of people who were probably not very informed about ACORN on the right were criticizing it, and instead of people taking a step back and wondering if there might be some shred of credibility hidden in there, it got laughed off the table.

And look what happens. Turns out a lot of those people were right.

To counter your point - in a democracy, I will take the ignorant people asking the right questions over the cynical sarcastic asses who, quite often, are completely wrong in the end.

After all, the pattern is pretty damning. Remember when the tides were turned, and progressives got laughed at by conservatives for questioning the Patriot Act, NSA wiretapping, the Iraq war? Who was right?

Congrats, you're on the list of fuck faces who would rather laugh at freakishly small percentage of idiots who get airtime instead of wondering if having over 30 czars in positions of leadership with no accountability is a good thing.

You do realize that you're defending people that think Czars are bad because they are Russian and should stay Russian, right?

I think it's more that I'm attacking you than defending them. That's not clear? And it's not personal /shrug

You are attacking me for laughing at the "they are Russian" argument. By doing so, you appear to be siding with them.

*walks off dragging a cross with little wheels on it*

Nope, I'm attacking you because you're spending more time laughing at them than you are critically thinking about the implications of the questions their actions pose.

Why would I sit here and fret about something that will have absolutely zero impact on me today or 5 years from today when I could spend that same time laughing at the idiots who like to think they are making a difference when all they are really doing is looking foolish on the internet?

I don't really care about ACORN, but maybe you should pick better topics as your big ace-in-the-hole. I don't remember where ACORN was shown to be "teh debil" - or even all that relevant to anything.

When was the last time you wrote anything meaningful here? Some of us just post at other people to pass the time. Your current events posting history is a little more than a one-liner after an Economist or Washington Post link then parroting the same article and calling people out for not copy/pasting their original responses to the same "point" you

How is that more meaningful than anything Neesha or I post? I'm sure it's meaningful to you, because you get to be the big bad dude on the internet who can read Drudge, but it's not meaningful to anyone else. You accomplish nothing, except to make yourself feel better. I accomplish nothing, except to entertain myself.

I don't see any difference.

_________________

If you were going to take a stance criticizing my posts, "one liners" isn't the one I would have expected. The second least likely stance I would expect someone to take is that posting links on the internet is bad.

omg, a mob!

So clever.

And really, maybe the guy with the Healthraiser avatar shouldn't be lecturing others about maturity in political discourse.

Again, I'm trying to figure out when you've actually done that. If you want to have a political debate, we can have it about any subject you want.

Besides, satire in politics is a time-honored tradition. That was a Jon Stewart graphic that I loved. Do you think that Jon Stewart has contributed to the spirit of political discourse in this country? I sure do. It speaks to how poorly Obama has handled health care reform, which, as we all know, is no laughing matter

So satire is ok, but poking fun of morons on Youtube videos isn't. Got it.

You've got it, exactly. I'd explain it, but I don't think you care.

omg satire

Actually, no. As much as I like the show, I think it results in a lot of people thinking that they're highly informed because they watch a comedy show and thinking that being a smartass/sarcastic/juvenile/whatever is the way to behave when discussing topics.

Also, Jox, really. Having a political discussion with you is like having it with Google's Evil Twin. We just get a bunch of search results piled on us with a few insults mixed into the links.

Actually, the sad truth is that the majority of the Daily Show IS more informed than viewers of the actual news networks. I'm sorry, but I'd rather see the hypocrisy in 15 minute period, than the 24 hour networks giving the latest loon significant airtime because he thinks Obama blows anal shit bubbles after waxing off his blackness using fruit flavored Acorn brand lube.

I firmly believe he really is the most trusted man in news right now, and agree with the poll that said as much.

I'm trying to figure out how, conceptually, posting links in support of your point is a bad thing. We are talking about the current events forum. How do you talk about current events without ... linking to current events? What a stupid concept, and it shows how pathetic your arguments are. My arguments suck because I post links. Roger. I'm trying to picture this argument if it had taken place 20 years ago. On one side of the debate, someone who references books and newspapers for his political views. "Don't wave your facts at me, you dirty bookreader!", the other guy screams, apparently happy to wallow in his own ignorance.

Hey look, here's a link. It points out the *fact* that the Pharma deal that the white house struck, then said it never struck, was in the Baucus health bill. Is it bad that I post this link?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/1 ... 90639.html

Way to fail at logic and causality.

Joxur = Doctor X. It's the only possible explanation.

You don't post links to support your points. The link is your point. You haven't had an original thought since you've been posting here.

_________________

In the rain.

in bed.

Please stop linking to facts and observations, it's interfering with my free thought.