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 Post subject: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:46 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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I have this in R&R instead of Current Events because I imagine it's going to be more of a rant than any kind of thoughtful discourse.

So today on the way home from work I hear that in the memos is someone who was waterboarded 83 times during the Bush administration.

83 times.

Somehow, through all the bullshit we went through, I had convinced myself that even if we were doing torture, we were only doing it a few times to a given detainee. I kept that wishful thinking and it helped me to keep from being completely cynical about the Bush administration.

But.... 83 times, to one guy.

Here's the rant, then, I guess. Fuck all of you that ever voted for Bush. Fuck even more all of you that supported torture of anyone in MY name, in MY country. And yes, it's as much my country as it is yours. I hate that I am even associated with a country that has done this, while I was a voting member. Fuck the Bush administration for ever getting us to this point, and fuck every Democrat or liberal that let it happen. I am more appalled than I even realized I would be. I was even surprised at my own anger when I heard this little side report on NPR, that wasn't even a major focus.

And fuck all of you so cynical about all this that it drove you to apathy. That includes me, I suppose.

bleh.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:00 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:16 PM 
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I agree, this was a waste of taxpayer dollars. They clearly should have switched methods after it failed to yield information the 37th time.

From what I know of it, if it's going to work waterboarding does so very very quickly. I think the average is measured in minutes. It was excessive, whether it was more excessive than what previous administrations have authorized we'll probably never know.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:24 PM 
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Honestly, I don't particularly care.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:44 PM 
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However the waterboarding was limited to halid Sheik Mohammed, the 9/11 mastermind, Abu Zubaydah, chief planner of additional attacks, and one other high ranking Al'Qaeda person.

Before these two were interrogated in this manner when asked about future attacks on the US all they would say is "You will soon see" That went on for some time. When the harsh methods were invoked the CIA learned, through the use of those methods, that there was a 9/11 style attack planned and in the works for L.A.

link here
Quote:
The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”

A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”

Additional interrogations of these two lead to learning of who and where while raids were made and stopped that plan.


Now, the terrorist know that we won't do anything to get the information from them so they will not say anything and future attacks may happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:29 PM 
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Yeah you're right. Torture is the way to go.

You know, it certainly wasn't you specifically, but the massive gulf between what you say you believe on Sunday mornings and what you apparently believe on these boards is exactly the type of thing that makes me unwilling to call myself a Christian anymore.

"Whatever you do to the least of these my brothers, you do to me" right?

bleh again.

Sorry to the rest of you for bringing religion into it again-- it just screams at me when I see posts like this, given my own background and experiences over the last decade or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:59 PM 
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If we won't prosecute those who commited. a. crime. then Obama is no better.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:38 PM 
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If we won't actually do something with them, they won't be captured in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:40 PM 
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One of my buddies went through an advanced course of SERE. Without getting into a great deal of detail, I wanted to find out just how bad waterboarding was. So, he and a few of our friends put me through the ordeal. I must say, it sucked...but having gone through it, I can honestly say I am all for using this method to make get info out of those guys. It does no permanent damage, it simply makes you feel like you are going to drown (and there is no way to actually make you drown and die doing it), and it causes zero permanent damage or pain to the person in question.

I am not an advocate of the Iraqi styles of torture...hanging people from meat hooks by the skin of they back, using torches on the soles of their feet, etc. To me, that is torture. Sleep deprivation (hey, if you Navy Seals can be sleep deprived for 5 days and be made to do non-stop physical training, the rest of you can just shut the fuck up about the fraction of sleep deprivation we did to them), water diets (I use them myself for stripping fat), and water boarding are all good tools to make someone uncomfortable to help break them down so that they are more willing to talk. I do not in any way consider these acts to be on the same level of torture as what our enemies do.

Hell, tickling someone with a feather is considered the way most of you look at thi issue...but is it realy? No, it is not, not in the grand scheme of things.

While most of you out there are completely against torture of any kind (Oh noez!! They are making me listen to Metallica at 90 decibals! Oh noezzzz!!) and will say it goes against American values (that is YOUR opinion, not mine), I say to you that the methods we use to "torture" are carefully monitored, they do not do permanent damage or significant pain to the person in question, and are good tools to get information out of weak individuals.

Done humanely, in a controlled environment, and performed correctly I think it is a useful tool that should be left in the hands of our trained experts to deal with certain individuals in very specific situations under very specific circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:05 PM 
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Well, if it is not torture then it wouldn't be too hard to add it to the Military Field Manual or to the international law books, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:10 AM 
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America is a nation of self-righteous pussies who are incapable of using a firm-handed approach with those who NEED to be aggressively handled in order to keep our citizens safe from harm. So, no, no act of “torture” will be written into policy or a field manual.

Torture will never be an acceptable practice because we love Jesus (as opposed to Allah) and we "think" we are better than everyone else because we take the self-proclaimed high road when in fact we've probably done more seedy and underhanded shit than most other countries combined. I am proud to call myself a citizen of a nation of hypocrites. No, really, I am.

I love my country and I will defend it ‘til my dying breath. I just completely despise the pussies making policy (and the pussies that influence those pussies with their bleeding twat) that refuse to allow us to use effective tools against those we aim to defeat who mean to kill each and every one of us without any mercy.

You cannot defeat an enemy by proclaiming the higher road while they are defeating our spirit and mental state with the vicious acts they do to our people. They win by their violent action. We lose by our pussified inaction. Which do you think makes a bigger impact on a global scale, their internet videos of them beheading one of our people or one of our soldiers handing one of their kids a soccer ball? Yes, they are winning.

That and we just totally undermined the ability of our CIA operatives to do some of the things they need to do to keep our country safe. You simply cannot have it both ways; you either get the job done with acts that many would call questionable (as they have been doing for decades)...or, you hand easy street over to all those people who want to kill us and ensure they know we can't even touch them with a feather or make them feel uncomfortable lest we send our (former) president and policy makers to jail for doing so.

Seriously, anyone who does not advocate non-lethal, non-permanent damaging forms of torture to get our enemies to cough up information is just a huge fucking pussy. Drop the whole “mightier than thou” act and look at the bigger picture; i.e. they will NOT extend the same “do-gooder” kindness to you if the tables were turned. It does not make us “better than them” if we do not use torture methods like water boarding and sleep deprivation; it makes us weaker, which just makes it easier for them to continue to come after us and have the upper hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:04 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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You're simply wrong, and I'm definitely glad that with those views, assuming you don't hide them, someone like you would never be elected to a position of power.

Sometimes I agree with you completely, Bello, but other times your views are simply deplorable. This is one of those times.

If there is a god, I pray that he/she would never allow you to get a position of real power where decisions about these things are made.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:19 AM 
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Me thinks we found the type of veteran that the extreme right militant groups would try to target as described by the report!!!

I kid, I kid. But, gosh, your comments are depressing! Stop the crazy talk already. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:21 AM 
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Also, you got it wrong. More people would be willing to do what you are suggesting in the name of Jesus than you are currently taking into consideration. I mean, it's not like the previous wars, and the torture orders were done under secular leadership. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:39 AM 
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Personally, I feel as if the members of such organizations do not act humanely. Therefore, they have chosen to give up their basic human rights because they refuse to give them to others. They have no rules, and the only way to beat someone not playing by rules is to not play by rules.

We made one mistake. We called it the "War on Terror." That means we are fighting a war, which sucks, because then that means everyone wants us to follow war time rules. I say screw that. When the person you are facing will put a bomb in with a baby and let it go off just to kill you, they don't deserve to be treated like a human. They are no better than an animal, and we should do to them what we do to rabid dogs, or any other angry animal out in the wild. That is, whatever it takes to stay alive, period.

I'm not a soldier, by the way. I just have very different views than you Fribur. I understand your nature, and I won't call any of that into question. I just firmly believe that terrorists are not humans, and do not deserve to be treated like humans. Therefore, I believe that when it comes to terrorists, all bets are off. Of course, I also believe the same about serial killers, rapists, and child molesters.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:42 AM 
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Damn no edit. I will also say murderers. And when I say murderers, I don't mean the guy that shot the man holding his wife hostage while he was doing so. I mean guys that freak out because their whore they tried to turn into a housewife cheated on them and kill her, or people who kill someone over drugs, or something equally stupid.

The first guy I would say was protecting people. The other two are retarded. Now, if the guy in the first situation kills the guy who did this much later (After he's been apprehended though I'd prefer killed) then he's a murderer and falls into the second category.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:49 AM 
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When I think torture waterboarding doesn't come to mind. Tricking someone into believing they are being hurt is not the same thing as hurting them. It is not the most humane treatment but that is why it is limited to certain individuals. Call me when they find a memo about someone from the CIA hooking a car battery up to someone's testicles.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:08 AM 
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We considered it torture when the Japanese used it on our POWs in WW2. And after the war, we convicted and executed said Japanese.

For all that "moral relativism" that gets tossed around by right wing pundits at the left over gay marriage, etc., I find their moral relativism regarding BushCo torture to be unfathomable on a human (but not a political) level. It's such a taboo violation in my lizard brain that I can't even come up with a logical counterargument.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:12 AM 
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Kind of like this...


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:55 AM 
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The problem I have is that when you start opening up the definition of torture to things that don't physically cause any internal or external harm to people that it is the same slippery slope that leads to people getting charged with assault when they do something like throw water on someone. Yes its a bad thing to do but it is not the same as punching someone in the face. Next we are going to be hearing that putting handcuffs on someone is torture. It's silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:43 AM 
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Well, thank goodness we're turning this into an anti-Christian thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:07 AM 
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joxur wrote:
Well, thank goodness we're turning this into an anti-Christian thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:22 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:28 AM 
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Keep in mind that waterboarding was NOT the worst thing we did. We also were directly responsible for sending captured prisoners to countries that had NO compunctions about torture.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:43 AM 
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Quote:
Well, thank goodness we're turning this into an anti-Christian thread.


Since I'm the only one that mentioned Christianity, I have to assume this stupidity is directed at me.

Mine wasn't a comment about Christianity itself-- it was directed at the hypocrisy of Christians who are ok with torture yet call themselves followers of Jesus.

We're not talking about a small gap here-- we're talking about a fundamental break in reality between Sunday morning and the rest of the week. And there it was, on display in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:58 AM 
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Quote:
Mine wasn't a comment about Christianity itself-- it was directed at the hypocrisy of Christians who are ok with torture yet call themselves followers of Jesus.
And yet, you ignore the fact that I was one of the most vocal - if not THE most vocal - critics of our torture regime on the boards, and I'm also a Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:03 AM 
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Frib's comments about Christianity and this are more pointed to me because I have made more recent comments about my Faith.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:09 AM 
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He's trying to pick a fight. I wish he'd just go ahead and make a new topic. I'm sure he can provide a lot of painful anecdotes that he's just bursting to get off his chest.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:18 AM 
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Joxur, it's actually a logical step by fribur to make that statement.

krby has said that he feels some sort of call to his faith, yet he seems to endorse waterboarding of another human being, which at best could be described as "unchristian"

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:38 AM 
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And I replied about that weakness before as well.

On the Pirate thread, my original knee-jerk reaction was "Blow them out of the water" and Frib countered with:
Fribur wrote:
Man I'm going to sound like an ass, but these days now that I don't really think of myself as a Christian I feel like I can finally say it:

Aren't you a Christian? Is this what you think your Jesus would do? Are you showing the attitude and stance of someone who is trying to follow Jesus? Is this what it means to "Love your enemies?" or to "Do good to those that harm you?"

To which I replied:
Krby71 wrote:
You are right my response is not very Christian. This is a failing of my Christian journey. I have always believed that there are forces in this world that you can not passively subdue and to stop them from causing more harm to others; one must use force to stop them.


Frib is just beating it over my head


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:42 AM 
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I've always thought there were many things the "Christian Right" support that were decidedly antichristian, waterboarding/torture are just the latest example.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:43 AM 
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Quote:
And yet, you ignore the fact that I was one of the most vocal - if not THE most vocal - critics of our torture regime on the boards, and I'm also a Christian.


Like I have to occasionally say to my self-absorbed teenagers in class, it's not always about you.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:46 AM 
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Like I have to occasionally say to my self-absorbed teenagers in class, it's not always about you.
You were making a rather sweeping generalization. And you've done it in the past. Like I said, go ahead and start your thread. The dogpile awaits.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:49 AM 
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Show me the sweeping generality I made about Christianity please.

I'll happily make (the same) generality I made before-- that people who are ok with torture, but call themselves Christian lose all credibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:16 AM 
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To try and realign this rant back on topic...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090423/ap_ ... _senate_25

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According to the new narrative, which compiles legal advice provided by the Bush administration to the CIA, Rice personally conveyed the administration's approval for waterboarding of Zubaydah, a so-called high-value detainee, to then-CIA Director George Tenet in July 2002.


That's right kids, good olde Condi Rice gave the CIA the nod.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:29 AM 
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These are men that plot to kill innocent civillians. The more they kill the happier they are. I endorse any means to get any shred of information out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:46 AM 
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I have this in R&R instead of Sports because I imagine it's going to be more of a rant than any kind of thoughtful discourse.

So today on the way home from work I hear that in the memos is someone who was wakeboarded 83 times during the Bush administration.

83 times.

Somehow, through all the bullshit we went through, I had convinced myself that even if we were doing water sports, we were only doing it a few times in a given lake. I kept that wishful thinking and it helped me to keep from being completely cynical about the Bush administration.

But.... 83 times, in one lake.

Here's the rant, then, I guess. Fuck all of you that ever boated with Bush. Fuck even more all of you that supported water sports other than skiing in any lake in MY name, in MY country. And yes, it's as much my country as it is yours. I hate that I am even associated with a country that has done this, while I was a boating member. Fuck the Bush administration for ever getting us to this point, and fuck every Democrat or liberal that let it happen. I am more appalled than I even realized I would be. I was even surprised at my own anger when I heard this little side report on NPR, that wasn't even a major focus.

And fuck all of you so cynical about all this that it drove you to apathy. That includes me, I suppose.

bleh.


Disclaimer: I seriously thought this was going to be a thread about wakeboarding when I clicked it.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:51 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:05 AM 
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Drajeck wrote:
These are men that plot to kill innocent civillians. The more they kill the happier they are. I endorse any means to get any shred of information out of them.


Congratulations. You have become that which you hate.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:15 AM 
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i'm waterbored with this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:54 AM 
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Quote:
These are men that plot to kill innocent civillians. The more they kill the happier they are. I endorse any means to get any shred of information out of them.
The problem with this point of view is you HAVE to take into context not only the waterboarding, but our policy of extraordinary rendition and holding prisoners without trial as enemy combatants.

For a long time, we just took whoever we wanted to take, and did whatever we wanted to do with them. Not everyone was picked up on the field of battle. Some were abducted on the streets of allied countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:56 AM 
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Show me the sweeping generality I made about Christianity please.
What's the point? You're just going to deny it. You're not really capable of owning up to it. Kind of like your insinuations that I was a racist during the campaign. It's either someone overreacting or you claiming it was a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:59 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:02 PM 
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What's the point? You're just going to deny it. You're not really capable of owning up to it. Kind of like your insinuations that I was a racist during the campaign. It's either someone overreacting or you claiming it was a joke.


You won't because it doesn't exist.

Look at my post history, sir. Over the years my general stance has been in defense of Christianity, not attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 PM 
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If they catch a terrorist who is a known terrorist and they know there is information to be found from that individual that could prevent more innocent lives from being taken, I am all for using any method to obtain this information.

The mistake they made with these guys was once they were done extracting every drop of information, they should of just put a bullet in the worthless sack of shits head so all you libbys out there don't keep going on and on about how its so wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:13 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:24 PM 
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Bzalthek wrote:
Drajeck wrote:
These are men that plot to kill innocent civillians. The more they kill the happier they are. I endorse any means to get any shred of information out of them.


Congratulations. You have become that which you hate.


A common reply. No, I havent become that which I hate at all. I am not killing masses of civillians in the name of any god. I am not using the deaths of as many people as possible to further a political agenda. That is what I hate and it is not equivilant to torturing a person guilty of those deeds in the least. It may not be nice, and it may not be Christian, but it is certainly not equivilant.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:26 PM 
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How is using "any means necessary" against one person any less evil than using "any means necessary" against hundreds or thousands of people?

Answer : it's not. You're trying to justify your statements with moral flexibility, but any moral that is flexible doesn't really exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:26 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
These are men that plot to kill innocent civillians. The more they kill the happier they are. I endorse any means to get any shred of information out of them.
The problem with this point of view is you HAVE to take into context not only the waterboarding, but our policy of extraordinary rendition and holding prisoners without trial as enemy combatants.

For a long time, we just took whoever we wanted to take, and did whatever we wanted to do with them. Not everyone was picked up on the field of battle. Some were abducted on the streets of allied countries.


This does muddy the water some. I don't know how you can differentiate people who you KNOW are terrorists from those you suspect are in a fair mannor. My statement is for those we know are terrorists though.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:28 PM 
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Guilty of what?

You betray a huge ignorance of the topic at hand. Were you aware that we held and tortured people that had nothing to do with terrorism? Those people have since been released with huge psychological damage.

With no oversight, no accountability and no legal due process, how do you know they're guilty? Or do you just not care, since they're brown skinned?


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:30 PM 
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Vanamar wrote:
How is using "any means necessary" against one person any less evil than using "any means necessary" against hundreds or thousands of people?

Answer : it's not. You're trying to justify your statements with moral flexibility, but any moral that is flexible doesn't really exist.


Simple, the 1 person has instigated an action and is getting the treatment as a response to that action. The hundreds of thousands of people have not committed those same actions. They are civillians. Even if you want to label it as evil, I'm OK with evil in the described circumstance. I don't care what you call or label it as, it is a military operative that is seeking to kill thousands of civillians and he has information that could save those lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:34 PM 
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Quote:
Simple, the 1 person has instigated an action and is getting the treatment as a response to that action. The hundreds of thousands of people have not committed those same actions. They are civillians. Even if you want to label it as evil, I'm OK with evil in the described circumstance. I don't care what you call or label it as, it is a military operative that is seeking to kill thousands of civillians and he has information that could save those lives.


So, I'm confused now. Action is required? "Masterminds" are not, under your ideas, to be subjected to torture? What level of action? Does it have to be knowing action?


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:34 PM 
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You're assuming a couple of things.

1) That the person is actually a military operative, and not just a citizen of a sovereign country, uninvolved with their state military.

2) That the information you get from torturing someone is at all accurate. These people are motivated not by their own well being, but by a twisted idea that their actions, as heinous as they seem to an outside observer, give them a just reward and entrance into Heaven.

In the first case, if we are imprisoning and torturing a civilian, then we are guilty of war crimes, by the very treaties that we signed.

In the case of number 2, even if they talk, it's under duress, and statements under duress are suspect at best, if not outright misleading.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:38 PM 
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There are a few other ways to either get the information out of them or to stop the attacks.

1 - Bomb the entire area where the suspected terrorist and plot organizers currently are located. (Not a good idea)

2 - Ask the terrorist nicely to not attack us (where we are now with the Obama plan)

3 - Arrest them and give them a trial with full protections under the US Constitution even if it means sharing the classified evidence with them so they can pass it along to others by means of their attorney. Forget the fact that they are a) not US Citizens b) want us to not exist and c) hold us and our way of life in contempt. (welcome to the Obama plan!)

4 - Totally cut off or greatly limit the ability of US citizens to travel and move about freely or to expect any semblance of privacy in anything they do. (Oh crap! they are doing this)

5 - Just let them bomb us, that way the terrorist dies in the attack that one won't attack us anymore. Besides we have too many people anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:41 PM 
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Vanamar wrote:
even if they talk, it's under duress, and statements under duress are suspect at best, if not outright misleading.


So the uncovering and stopping of the West Coast 9/11 by interrogating KSM and the two others other were totally unreliable?


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:41 PM 
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previously on 24

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:42 PM 
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Quote:
3 - Arrest them and give them a trial with full protections under the US Constitution even if it means sharing the classified evidence with them so they can pass it along to others by means of their attorney. Forget the fact that they are a) not US Citizens b) want us to not exist and c) hold us and our way of life in contempt. (welcome to the Obama plan!)


I sense a winner! If we are going to arrest them and hold them for questioning it must be according to our laws & treaties. If it's not, we lose in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:45 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
Vanamar wrote:
even if they talk, it's under duress, and statements under duress are suspect at best, if not outright misleading.


So the uncovering and stopping of the West Coast 9/11 by interrogating KSM and the two others other were totally unreliable?


Just because you find a gold nugget when you pan the river, doesn't mean you've struck the motherlode and should keep doing what you're doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:56 PM 
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But how will we get the information? The terrorist won't talk. We will only be prosecuting those after an action that kills 100's or 1000's of people. Do you think that they are afraid of jail time?

Did you miss the part that we would have to SHARE OUR CLASSIFIED INFORMATION WITH THEM?

Prosecutor: Mr. Terrorist and Mr. Terrorist Attorney, here is the evidence that we have against you and your client, it shows that we have used {insert method of obtaining information} to find out that you and your associates have done {insert one action that they were planning}. How do you plea?

Terrorist: Die Satan!

After the trial recesses, the terrorist instructs his lawyer to provide the information to his associates to either move or change whatever it was that may hinder the planned attack.

This would stop nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Waterboarding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:06 PM 
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Maybe we can stop doing things that make the terrorists want to attack us? Maybe?

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