This can become an industry norm very quickly. A lot of petitions to congress are being submitted. I've been following the outcry on tomshardware.com

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/time-w ... ,7535.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/time-w ... ,7534.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/time-w ... ,7530.html



Here is a petition to email your congressperson.
https://secure.freepress.net/site/Advoc ... ion&id=311

I used to work for Compuserve customer service before the internet. I can't tell you how many times I needed to help someone with a $1000+ bill because of a modem hang up where they were charged per min for the whole month.

What guarantee is Time Warner going to give that the traffic metered is actual use? Torjans, updates, DOS attacks; hell even bloated ads on a webpage. You might even consider being "green" with what sites you visit to fit a budget.

This shit will happen eventually. I am honestly surprised it hasn't happened yet.

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It will take some lobbying to really get it through the government.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

I am interested to see how TPB trial goes.

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There's plenty of bandwidth available. They're trying to institute a pricing scheme to raise funds to develop a fiber network to compete with the phone company. Coaxial internet reached its limit long ago. Fiber is about to hit 100GB.

Too bad even most telco's are (at best) slower than turtles at rolling out fiber to the premises, or even fiber to the curb.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

For every telco that does this, there will be 5 that wont. This service is subject to open market practice.

That may be, but not everyone has a choice.

To quote from Slashdot:

/agree 100%

Welcome to Canada 5 years ago guys!

I think it would be funny if they metered how much TV you watched. If they said... metered upload, I could understand that.

Anyway, anyone having any issues connecting to tomshardware.com ?
I can not access nor ping it from home but can from work. ISP says there are no blocking issues.

So what happened in Canada?

I agree with Cuch's post. The internet is "too good" right now, at least for those of us who know how to use it. That shit is going to change, you can bet your sweet ass. They (them who is they) know they can not stop P2P unless they cut off the bandwidth. Now though, it's not JUST P2P - it's sites like Hulu - which will only improve in time.

Tomshardware is having some issues it looks like this morning btw.

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Municipal monopolies are the #1 reason their infrastructure is overused. NUMBER ONE reason. This is a consequence, thus why government intervention is required to kill these monopolies forcing choice.

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In the days of free WiFi, this "plan" was foolish beyond belief. How anyone could really take it seriously is beyond me.

Almost 100% of ISP in Canada already have transfer limit with overcharge per gigabyte over the cap. And you can't really change ISP here because most of the area have 1 or 2 broadband provider and usually bpth have transfer cap. (usually upload / download combined total)

Don't lure yourselves, they will eventually go trough with download caps where you live too. They save $$ (they also pay their bandwidth so if you restrain yourself they lower their cost) and they also make more money off the people who go over the cap. It's win/win for them. Don't think for a minute the money is used to invest in their network, it's exactly the opposite, they use less bandwidth if everyone is affraid to go over the cap so they can cram more people on their existing infrastucture without having to expand.

Where I live now it's 5Mbps speed with 35GB upload/download quota combined with 10$ per GB over or 90GB with 10$ per extra GB... BUT, they don't count transfers between 0h00 and 7:59 in the morning so as a result my bittorent client is set to only transfer between those times unless I force it. Where I lived before they have many different packages:
http://www.videotron.com/services/en/in ... raison.jsp

I lol at 20Mbps subscribers, I'd rather have 10Mbps and 100GB transfer cap than twice the speed and 30GB transfer with extra Gb at $7.95 WTF. Of course if I move back there in the future ill get 50Mbps /nod
Oh when I left the area the 10Mbps offer was unlimited transfer, they don't have it anymore.

Canada isn't the only place they do that shit, friends in England bitch about it regularly.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Well, it seems inevitable then.

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If doing something in Europe and Canada made it inevitable in the United States, we'd have universal health care.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Yeah, well, one screws you over the other one benefits you. Guess which one is going to carry over?

Please read my first post in this thread. Thank you.

They both screw you over.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

yep

nope.

intellectual dialogue at it's best!

Yup, and we will have that eventually too.

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The Pirate Bay lost.

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Well, I guess Time Warner is now forced to back off. We'll see what happens now.

Awww, that really blows. They face jail time too.

Yes, universal healthcare exactly what we need! Putting the government in charge of our health is a GREAT idea!

For those not paying attention, there are 4 links in there.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

It's Empire Strikes Back. Good guys will win in the end. Then Lucas will shit all over them.

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rofl

It's a start... from /.

How is TPB the good guy in this scenerio? It's not like they were aiding in the dissemination of information that is important to the individual's continuing freedom, unless you honestly believe that getting the latest edition of Photoshop for free is going to halt tyranny.

You can't fight tyranny without snappy signs!

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

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Very true what you say. I live in Montreal right now, there's only ONE ISP in the whole bloody area that offers unlimited, unthrottled transfers, and that's because they put their own ADSL2+ equipment in the Bell COs. (Their name is Colbanet for anyone interested).

Actually, I want a REAL explanation as to how what TPB does is ANY different than what google does. It's an index, nothing more. It's as if someone on the corner asks you where all the drug traffic is and you tell them. Are you culpable for their use? Not necessarily, and especially not in their home country.

It's the kneejerk reaction that I have a problem with, and it's getting worse. The overall abuse of the DCMA in regards to Fair Use is very much tyranny, just a more modern version of it. Think a bit further beyond this year and "omgtheystoleztehWolverinemoveeez!"

If the pirate bay didn't run their own tracker, then yes, they'd just be an index. Sorry, running the tracker makes them culpable for...something.

Mininova is an index. Newzbin is an index. TPB is more like giganews

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

But once again, a tracker is STILL an index by the actual definition. Instead of content, it's users.

Google tells you where the drug dealer lives. TPB brings the drug dealer to your front door.

The overall abuse of DMCA in regards to Fair Use isn't really relevent in this situation. We're not talking about playing a movie that you purchased for a room of your friends, or listening to and interpreting a song for your class project. We're talking about the wholesale copying of an original work and disseminating it to the world. There's a BIG difference here.

It seems like a majority of the outrage on this(at least from what I've read on various forums) is coming from the thieves that are upset that they may not be able to steal movies/TV shows anymore. It's been kind of interesting to watch. /popcorn

I'm outraged about this because of how unfair the verdict is, and I don't even pirate.

Except Doctor Who specials.

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Oh, right!

Negatory. It's VERY relevant. But for now, we'll focus on a single argument as it converges with the other. The argument here is that TPB is making available a tangible asset. At NO POINT does the actual intellectual/physical property pass through TPB's system. Ever. Not one single digital bit. This is where you get into the "making available" clause. It was intended for those who provide the actual work itself, not for those who are, for all intents and purposes, indexing it. There are a number of legit uses for BitTorrent. I do not believe the site holders are responsible for the content any more than an ISP is. I believe as a service provider they should be protected. However distasteful they are as human beings, and they are, I believe their point IS valid. If someone wants to subpoena data in regards to inappropriate use of this system, I'm all in support of this provided those are logs are kept.

Once again, I'm not in support of wholesale theft of people's work. I AM however in support of protecting technology and service providers in the long term from the witch hunt. Having owned an ISP during the Napster era, I know the abuse these witch hunts allow for without proper oversight. There are methods for protecting your work. This is NOT it.

And photoshop every 3 years! *waits and looks for the FBI to show up* I should change "don't even pirate" to "don't really pirate"

Like I said somewhere else, I don't mind the companies suing, regardless of whether or not we (or I) agree with their loss claims, they sort of have the right to try (heh) and stop people from getting their stuff illegally. What really angers me is the way they prosecute, it is really unfair the RIAA is just evil. Makes me feel dirty every time I buy an album. =[

There isn't any need to steal CS4 anyway. All they did was move all the fucking buttons around so you have to relearn where everything is. Fuck that noise.

Couple points.

First - there are no conspiracies in managing bandwidth. The simple fact is that SOMEONE has to pay for bandwidth. As more people get on and more people download, more infrastructure is needed - and it costs money.

Second - P2P shit is stealing. TPB basically provided the infrastructure to encourage theft. End of story. They can try to cloud it behind all the various BS of "we're just an index", but that isn't the case.

The difference between Google and TPB is that Google has a use outside of illegal activity. Of course it can be used to facilitate illegal transactions, but the benefits significantly outweigh the cons (which is considered in cases of this nature). For example, you could argue that real estate sites encourage theft because they let you know if a property is abandoned. But - that negative is trumped by the positives. Now, if there was a site called "abandonedHomes.com", we woudl have a different discussion.

In TPB case, it is pretty straight-forward. If I created a website and called it "Bank Robber Bay" and provided links to schematics of all major banks, provided links to all security services in the area, provided links to escape routes on Google Maps, and then tracked the number of successful robberies you performed, I would certainly be culpable.

Let's just admit it's theft and move on. Every time one of these is defeated, a new one spawns.

Do you think this will even slow down the theft?

You can go to Pirate Bay RIGHT NOW and download illegal shit. Nothing is going to change any time soon. If Pirate Bay gets completely shut down, there are hundreds of other sites doing the exact same thing. Hell, Torrentz.com is a search engine that searches all of those sites for whatever it is you want to steal. Anyone who tries to argue that it isn't stealing, or that they don't use those types of sites for any illegal activity is 100% full of shit.

[quote]Do you think this will even slow down the theft?[/quote

I think it will have a small yet still somewhat noticable impact on casual downloaders that steal, yes, especially if they use internet metering to an extreme. People might at least think twice about what they're doing, even if based solely on the advent of companies trying to do something - even if it's unsuccessful technologically.

They're basically going to start trying anything and everything. It's been attempted to appeal to people's common decency, and that hasn't worked, so they're being more aggressive now.

They're ALREADY subsidized for infrastructure and have been for years. Thus, the municipal monopolies for the jobs created. Having owned a small ISP for a period, I can tell you, with 110% confidence, there is DEFINITELY a conspiracy in regards to bandwidth management. It's just not tinfoil-like conspiracy. But hey, maybe you stayed in a Holiday Inn last night and this just isn't the case.



Again. Many folks USING "P2P shit" are stealing. Using P2P shit ISN'T stealing. Stop. I'm all fine and dandy with drawing the line through legislation. The problem is that current legislation is overly vague and broad.



P2P has NUMEROUS applications outside of illegal activity. In fact, it's benefits outweigh the cons of Google itself when you consider that when used properly, it actually LIMITS network congestion due to its very nature. Blizzard's patch use and various Linux distributions are very real examples of this. Remember how dogshit slow EQ patch day could be? P2P helps eliminate that by seeding across multiple backbones.



Of course it's theft. But the law is VERY ambiguous here, even moreso in Sweden, as they weren't facilitating theft, they were making available. And that's just NOT correct here. It's a very, very bad precedent. Until sensible legislation is introduced that is CLEAR, and provides for consumer protections, this action will continue to expand and be abused. That's the point I'm making here. Not that these tards are some kind of folk heroes. They're rebels without a clue...but they ARE right.

Isn't it kinda like saying it's walmart's fault people steal from there since they have a ready supply of shit just sitting on the shelves?

Or maybe a consignment shop or flea market? I dunno know..

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Elessar - maybe I should clarify, all forms of P2P is not stealing. But, TPB and 99% of all torrent sites are geared for that. P2P does have legitimate functions (such as Blizzard's use). The government isn't going after Blizzard for using P2P technology.

The law is vague largely because people are still trying to figure this stuff out.

Bottom line is this - the people stealing know they are stealing and while I am not for carte blanche prosecution, whatever they get they probably deserve.

And to stir the pot a little... this reminds me a little of the infamous Conquest banning. When "the fuzz" came down on them, they played dumb.... that is until guild transcipts were released by Smedley I believe that had things like "sploit time!" or whatever.

Anyway, the point is - when you're doing something wrong, you can play dumb when the executioner comes, but more than likely you knew it was wrong all along.

And the "spolit" didn't even work. And then everyone else who did velious used the same tactic to do the rest of the expansion.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Except the whole "you bring a GM down here and we're using massive amounts of sploits" was taken out of context and seriously backfired on them because Gath was able to produce the full chatlog of when that happened.

In other words, this is absolutely nothing like the Conquest situation.

You can't download anything from Pirate Bay. You should know this.



You don't seem clear on what they're doing in the first place.



A search engine != download site for starters



Lots of it isn't theft.



Aww do I have to take ANOTHER picture of disks I own with me flipping you off again to demonstrate the idiocy of this statement? I mean, you've called *me* directly a thief more than once, and have been PROVEN wrong.

You'd think you'd get it. There ARE alternative purposes for this shit beyond 'hey dude i want free games n shits lulz'

I could give a rat's fuck if you want to make gross generalities, but your all or nothing statements are just ridiculous. ESPECIALLY when repeatedly made to groups of gamers who are rabidly AGAINST gaming piracy for the simple fact that...WE LIKE GAMES. I want MORE games made. And I have *never* stolen a game. Ever.

I have downloaded a game that was 'iffy' to try it. If it was shit, I deleted it. If I liked it, I purchased it. Most gamers treat it as a demo.

Sure, some people steal. But it's as dumb as those people who want to ban all guns because criminals use them. Ignoring of course the many legitimate purposes of gun ownership, and even more spectacularly stupidly ignoring the fact that many criminals obtain their weapons illegally and will continue to do so.

Add on to that the fact...not speculation mind you, but the FACT that sharing of media has generated MORE spending by consumers, and it's an even bigger pile of bullshit. Which is exactly why more and more corporations are jumping on the bandwagon of free distribution...because it generates money. And when they can toss in some additional ad revenue in there as well (ala Hulu)...it's like printing their own fucking cash.

And if you're interested in any of that data, some of it was introduced in TPB trial, and is freely available.

It's certainly not an invalid argument that most media sharing is as much 'theft' as a library. (Which btw, some people actually do argue in trying to prevent media...including some BOOKS...from being included in libraries). Or a video store...again that argument has been made as well.

Or a VCR...which media corporations tried to have banned the recording of programs (Thank Mr. Rogers, yes THAT Mr. Rogers and his testimony before congress for your fucking TiVos)...and of course today, TiVo.

What the RIAA does...well that could and probably should be another topic. If you want to talk about criminal activities though...I'd point them out. And yes, some of what they do *is* illegal, and is being fought. It's just very difficult for private citizens to go up against anyone with a huge war chest. Probably the most popular example for that among gamers like us would be Penny Arcade's immediate folding against American Greetings over the Strawberry Shortcake parody. They were right, they had the law on their side...and it simply wasn't worth the risk. When they dealt with Jack Thompson they were also right, also had the law on their side...and it was a much lesser risk, and one they continued with due to principle. A joke is one thing, that whacko was something else.

It's really not just about whiny emo teens or college kids justifying their music theft. Sure, some of it's that...but it's hardly the entire picture. It's not even a big portion of the picture. And to continue to state or imply that it is at this point is just willful ignorance.

That being said, I'm sure nothing will change, so I'm wasting calories slamming my fingers to the keyboard. I'll go back to ignoring these topics and simply chuckling at impressions of cranky old men screaming 'get off my lawn you damn kids'.

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