looks like they are gunning for the textbook market.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/04/amaz ... h-display/

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That's been my most avid suggestion to both them and publishers.

You know how fucking heavy my bookbag was? I had to get shit with rollers and I'm not a wuss!

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Only bad thing is that it is hard enough to re-sell books. =\

Yeeeeeeeeeah and based on what I've seen they do NOT wish to discount them.

However, many books now come with a .pdf version (not 'many' should say 'some') which can be converted into a kindle book. Though if the publishers make it a kindle to begin with that would be awesome.

Basically...I'm still HAPPY to buy the book if it also comes w/ a Kindle version. That way I can take my kindle to classes, but still have the actual book when studying. Because as much as I love e-books...I like being able to flip pages much more easily, write in the books, and see full sized graphics. And the full size color graphics are especially essential in science courses.

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http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-DX-Amazons-Wireless-Generation/dp/B0015TCML0/ref=amb_link_84306891_5?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1D89ZBNKMZJ80YDBHDNE&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=476812931&pf_rd_i=133141011

This new version is coming out in the next 2-4 months.

I do not see it as replacing the brand new Kinde2. I think more for business side of the house.

Businesses that want to drop $500 for the ability to read books that has zero utility....



Just wait for the next round of tablet PC's. Apple is going to unveil something between a laptop and an iPhone. Goodbye Kindle.

Except it will use some stupid fucked up apple proprietary cable, software, file format, service, interface or any other assortment of fuckups they are famous for over the past 20 years.

Yeah, like designing by far the most popular music buying service, mp3 player and 2nd gen smart phone.

Apple's stuff is fine, if you don't mind being locked into their walled garden.

I'm not, so I refuse to buy any of their products.

And $500 for a deluxe sized Kindle?

You can get a decent laptop that would do everything the Kindle could do, and more, for that amount of money.

I still think that instead of forcing students to buy books, they should simply rent/sell laptops and give the books as a service.

Course, the publishers would never go for that.
Greed ruins everything.

WTF?

Um, you might want to talk to someone who has worked on a textbook, or is in that industry. There's a reason those books are so expensive, a *lot* of work goes into them, and many of them have a relatively short shelf life as new research is done in the field of the book.

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How do you get a job as a copyright auditor? That sounds like a kickass job with some nice perks.

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Generally speaking, blackberries are still more popular than iphones. The iphone just has more buzz.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

heh. The kindle will do nothing for newspapers. Newspapers are doomed.

That's why I don't like the kindle. The kindle is far worse than an iPhone in that regard. the iPhone has a healthy app development community and the kindle has nothing.

Furthermore, what do you think will happen when devices like the iPad come out, between the size of a netbook and an iphone - with the Kindle app on them? The software is already out there. There will be zero reason to buy a kindle, and Amazon's inexperience making and supporting hardware will not hold up to competitors. These new devices, with color and notebook-like functionality, will be cheaper than the Kindle DX because they will be subsidized by wireless providers.

You still don't get it.

Kindle users do not want their kindles to be a blender. They want it for ebooks, period. The old people which make up a SUBSTANTIAL portion of the kindle user base BITCH about the fact that you can play mp3s on the kindle.

They actually wanted that functionality REMOVED. Why? Because they don't want their kindle to be an ipod or anything else and they had concerns that future development would focus on additional features.

They don't want them. And they have giant hissy fits if anyone brings up the concept. They like it being just a 'simple' ebook, and believe anything added to that could potentially take away from it.

These are also the people who are spending thousands of dollars buying books off Amazon. So they're listening to them.

That segment of the community has also ALWAYS wanted a 'bigger' kindle (whereas I think the size is perfect as is). So the Kindle DX...pretty much made specifically for them, and they'll buy it.

These old folks also have the income to not only spend thousands on books, they're also the ones buying kindles for the nieces, nephews and grandkids.

My dentist is one of the 'older' kindle users. He's bought SEVEN of them so far, giving some to family, and some to his staff. Pretty much everyone on his staff who has either been there a long time or works full time has a kindle from him if they want it. And surprisingly that's not at all uncommon with the older users (giving away many as gifts). So that, and the money they're spending on books...gives them a lot of sway in the community.

I have a smart phone, I love all it can do...I don't wanna read books off it though. I don't even like reading them off the computer.

It's not to say someone out there won't do it in a way *I* find better...but the biggest market isn't with tech saavy folk who want a gazillion apps...it's with people who are WAAAAY behind that curve who want a simple specific item. They want a toaster that just makes toast, not eggs and hotdogs and bacon.

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The vocal minority. There's a bunch of WoW players that want their content and game experience simpler and more pure, and they are losing their battle. There's a vocal group that wants its news unbiased, and they are losing. The list goes on and on. I'll see your dentist who bought 7 devices and raise you 20 million teenagers and college students who want one device that can do it all. Bye.

Kindle needs to appeal to more people, not less.

You said it yourself - it doesn't even work for complex textbooks because it has no color. So, it's a niche of a niche.

Soon, devices will come out that have the Kindle software, add the features it lacks now, like color, custom apps and more, will sell like fucking hot cakes, and Amazon will start driving more of its core business to the e-book retail part of their product line, and less to hardware development. Amazon will have done all the work of getting publishers to digitize and adopt an online-sales strategy. Great, that's a win in the long run.

It's for books, it's not a giant iPhone. I get that you love your iPhone. Really. I do.

They're not the vocal minority...they're the ones buying books off Amazon. Amazon exists to sell things...most of those things are books.

As far as color illustrations go, there's reasons they're doing it the way they have it. The screen is designed to look like paper and require no backlight which is easier on the eyes (which is why people love it) AND requires far less power. I'm sure it's also a lot cheaper to make.

Textbook publishers aren't charging fucktons of cash simply for the printing of the book, so there will be NO big discount to get the books on the kindle. Additionally, you can't resell your kindle edition. Plus there's reasons to want a 'real book' when studying at home. You can get around all those reasons, but it's just nice to have. Since there's no real discount/resale...it simply makes sense for the books to INCLUDE a kindle copy with the purchase of the physical book. Many textbooks do this already...by providing a .pdf copy of the book on disk. If you have a .pdf copy of the book on disk then you can just take your laptop to class...assuming of course that your Apple doesn't start a fire in your bag after it heats up and you have enough battery power to get through the day...

Or you can take the kindle and use it just for class.

Oh, and as far as Amazon doing all the work...that's why they have them publish specific 'kindle' editions. You can't use it on other mediums unless Amazon has allowed an app for it.

Which they have...for the iphone. So looks like Apple is working with kindle, not against them. Probably because they are unlikely to make an ebook, I mean...why bother? Kindle has done it, and it's probably too niche for them.

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Any idea how much of the revenues a textbook generates go to the actual author?

Not much, but the guy I know who worked on one wasn't the main guy. All those books have teams working on it. He was one of like...6 of the big name math guys who worked on it. It was actually a really good textbook. And math books tend to last a bit longer, but they also like to keep those 'fresh' with their word problem examples, etc. I don't know how many new math books get done, since in many instances once you're done one...you can just release edition updates forever.

Now, it might be a WHOLE lot more profitable once you take into account residuals...I mean, if he's still getting checks 20 years later, I'd say it's a really good investment. I know he basically worked an entire summer more than full time on his portion of it. And again, I really liked the book (and worked through the entire book and only found a single mathematical error. There might be more, but that's all I found).

Even most novelists though aren't getting rich off publication. One guy who's reasonably successful as a John Grisham type that we know got a $5k advance on his first novel, and AFAIK was making roughly $30-40k a year with it...but the guy is also a highly successful attorney, so clearly he made a LOT more in that profession. I'm sure he hopes to become like Grisham or Petterson, who I am sure make millions...but most writers are thrilled if they can earn a living just doing that.

Most published authors I know, cannot.

And even so called 'movie rights' can be kinda bullshit. One writer I know who has a popular webcomic was offered $5 for the 'television' rights to his work. Generally the bottom of the barrel offers there are in the $5-10k range. The offer came from a major network and someone who was a mucky muck. So why so little? Because they had an 'in' and if your shit gets developed it can open a lot of doors. Still, my friend decided not to sell (and I can't name him because he wasn't public about the offer as he doesn't want to burn a bridge). But the point being, even when you see major movies being made off writers work...it doesn't always mean they're getting rich off it. And if they sold the series rights, you could see something like Spenser for Hire on television with Robert B. Parker getting nothing for it IF he had sold the rights to the series for a song (no idea what his arrangement was, just saying).

And unlike the movie industry, you can't really chalk this one up to 'greedy publishers', though I've no doubt that exists. It's not even close to being like the music industry, most are really great. But even when a highly successful novelist eschews them for an e-format (as Stephen King did!)...they're not that successful. Stephen King found marketing and selling purely e-format didn't garner him more money. And in fact it was for him, unprofitable.

And he's about as brand name as you can get. Now of course, perhaps his timing was wrong, he was unarguably ahead of the curve. And there weren't many ereaders out (1 or 2 then...maybe...and clunky as shit and pricy to boot). And people really don't like reading on the computer, outside of news and shit.

Anyhoo...for most writers, even if they get a book published, unless it's lucky enough to really fly off the shelves, it's like an actor doing a commercial. Pays a decent lump sum usually, and then the other checks are smaller and smaller, until they stop coming altogether.

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/giggle

Anyway.. my point is not about the iphone. It's about devices that bridge the gap between smartphones and laptops. What you don't seem to get is that most people don't really want to carry around a phone, a laptop and a Kindle. Consolidation is good, k? When all the kiddies see the kindle app on a device with actual marketing behind it, and you can get it in 10 different colors, and it does everything the kindle does and more, for less money. Seriously, your point is that the kindle in this upcoming scenario, being more expensive, less functional AND less hip will somehow preserve a niche?

I'm sorry you seem to know so few people that you find it unusual. /roll eyes

Anyway...

Again, there's lots of people who don't want their toaster making eggs, bacon, hotdogs, and fruit slushies. They are simply happy with a toaster. I understand that YOU think 'just a toaster' is 'unhip', lame...and just not good enough!!!!! There are valid arguments for people who want just a toaster. They are happy with just their toast, there's fewer things that can go wrong with their 'Just A Toaster (tm)', and they don't need an instruction manual or a small child to teach them how to use it. They just insert toast, hit the bar...and enjoy their delicious perfectly toasted bread.

Mmmmm.

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Just to slam the door shut on your point of view, here's a link to what the Journalism school at Missouri - pretty much the best jschool in the country - is doing.

School of Journalism to require iPod touch, iPhone for students
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stori ... pod-touch/

You *really* don't get it. I understand, though. You and I, and most people on this board, grew up with textbooks. Kids going to school these days have grown up with PDAs, laptops and now smartphones. Once pad devices come out with kindle software, there will be no kindle, because it can't do the *other* things that people need out of a device.

Just to use your tortured toaster scenario. ALREADY, even before the goddamn pad devices are out, the toaster doesn't quite cut it. In addition to their wonderful toaster that students can (sometimes) use as a textbook replacement, now they're being told they also need a blender. So, those students HAVE to carry around a toaster and a blender. Are you really positing that when the magical toaster/blender combo comes out, that is CHEAPER than the toaster alone, they somehow won't snatch it up immediately?

Again, the kindle isn't marketed for textbooks. The people I'm talking about who want a pure toaster...aren't using it for textbooks. Amazon isn't making the bulk of their money on textbooks.

Shall I toss a match on the strawman or do you want to keep playing with it?

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I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about textbooks. I guess we weren't talking about textbooks, despite all the references to.. textbooks.

Please, let me know what we're talking about. I'm confused - and a little afraid.

Man, Jox didn't even read that article...

The only reason they listed it as "required" was so people on financial aid could include it in their estimates. There's no penalty for not having one.

They just want people to be able to record/re-listen to the lectures. That's it. I can do that with a $5 digital voice recorder, my blackberry or my laptop.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

No, no.. you're making my point for me.

If you had one device you could do everything on. Research, textbook, audio recording.. oh, and it's a phone and computer, as well? Why would you carry around a kindle, phone, audio recorder and laptop?

Alton Brown says uni-taskers are stupid.

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In the kitchen, yes, they are.

For tech devices -- I want the best device to do the job. I don't really care about "conversion" -- I have an mp3 player, a smartphone, a laptop, a netbook, a digital camera, and I'm considering a Kindle. I plan my days based around contingencies -- what am I most likely going to need to do -- and I carry devices appropriate to plans. All of the above devices easily fit inside my backpack ALL AT THE SAME TIME, so I am not in any way inconvenienced should I need to carry them all (typical load : netbook, phone, camera, mp3 player. If I'm going out of town, I swap the netbook for the laptop)

Are you saying just because your phone has a 3 megapixel shitty camera on it, you're not going to pay for a nice digital camera?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Hahaha I totally thought of him while making my analogy too...but he has a unitasker he loves and justifies. Geek kitchen cred. if you can name what it is! Actually there's more than one so I'll accept multiple answers.

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Fire extinguisher

Yep! The other one I was thinking salt cellar (and I have the one he uses, it's really good) but there was another one he had that he defended as a uni but it was such a GOOD uni that he was all 'normally I'd neeeever buy a uni but in this case' ...I forget what it was, but I'd know if it I heard it.

And I don't know if you could really count the salt cellar as a uni since it's a container, not really a 'tool' per se.

Now I'm trying to remember what the other thing was ARGH!

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Tarot, I will agree that books like science and computer science require constant updates. I have a science degree and am working on pre preqs for a masters in comp sci. So I pretty much always knew that when I went to the book store to sell back my books I wouldn't have much luck. However, do you think there have been groundbreaking updates in the world of English composition? What about Trig? Yet every few years, they release new editions of books where they basically shuffle around the chapters a bit so that students can no longer use used copies of the same material. The text book industry has a nice racket going right now.

College Textbooks are a scam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01290.html

http://www.maketextbooksaffordable.org/ ... ?id2=14221

Publishers, like music labels, are unnecessary middlemen.

I read this entire article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 290_2.html

Expecting the 'college textbooks are a scam' to be supported. I saw NOTHING in support of that. Could you show me what I'm missing please? I saw NOTHING in that article that supported the idea tht 'publishers are unnecessary middlemen' either. Can you show me what I'm missing...from that article please?

Thanks

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Yeah, I didn't know either, but this chart from the National Association of College Stores gives a pretty good breakdown. ~65% goes to the publisher (with 7% their estimated profit), ~22% to the college bookstore (4.5% profit), and ~12% to the author. These are rough estimates based on data compiled from surveying textbook publishers and college bookstores; considering the source, I'd imagine publisher and bookstore profit margins are underestimated somewhat.

Here's my approach to the textbook game, having played it at a range of universities and levels of education: I don't buy textbooks unless they're references I'll use later in life. I ask professors to either send me a pdf copy if they're the author, or put the textbook on reserve at the library if they're not. If I do buy a book, I pick it up on Amazon for under half the bookstore's price. If I decide to sell it back, I do so again on Amazon for roughly double the bookstore's buyback rate.

IMO, bookstores make money for two reasons. The first and obvious reason is convenience; can't beat the campus location. The second is that most college kids get their textbooks paid for by a third party: usually Daddy, sometimes scholarships. So they don't examine prices or buyback rates all that closely, since it's not "they're money."

It's a racket, but there are ways around it. Most students are just not motivated to do so.

That's interesting that so much profit goes to the college bookstore. It certainly benefits them to update to 'newer' editions since they make more money on the sale of 'new' books, especially since the used book market is bypassing them now.

I wonder if schools could require you buy the book through them. Not to give them ideas mind you...

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I don't have an exact number, but one of my close cousins writes a series of college chemistry books and it's not much, considering how much the books cost.

Leo :

Writes, or helps write? I know a couple of my college professors had "sole authorship" of several textbooks and they made a decent income from them. I'm sure the textbooks written by a team of people tend to be much, much less.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Writes; has been for about 20 years or so. Don't get me wrong. He's developed a pretty strong client base and he does alright. But paying $150 for a textbook, you'd probably expect the author to get more than he does.

So, I got a sony reader for my birthday (I'll be 43 in a couple days). I'm trying to decide whether to return it for a Kindle or keep it. The biggest thing to me will be accessible titles. Sony is allied? with Googlebooks which in turn seem to be in the end stages of a major agreement with publishers...

So, anyone have any thoughts?

Also, tiny publishers like Mundania Press offer ebooks. How can I figure out if they work on my device?

Kula, I've never used a Sony reader, so IDK, but my dentist had one, even though he had bought a kindle for like 7 other people (family and people in his office). He had kept his Sony Reader ONLY because he had a couple of thousand bucks in book purchases on it...and couldn't xfer those books to kindle. Then his Sony Reader was lost at an airport in Europe (and of course never turned in). He had his Sony books saved to his computer...but at that point was considering just saying fuck it. But ended up buying a new Sony reader off ebay.

Basically he had used both and thought the kindle was a million times better, and wasn't buying any more books for Sony.

Kindle also had FAR more titles available. And with a variety of free download tools, you can convert most media files to the kindle format (except you cannot convert Sony's shit to kindle because it's propriatary. Or if you can...I'm not aware how).

I'm sure there's people out there who prefer Sony's reader. Basically the two biggest differences seem to be to me is that Sony is backlit (which is harder on the eyes ultimately, and on battery power) and with Kindle you can wirelessly download books pretty much instantly from Amazon.com anywhere. I don't think Sony's reader has that capability. Which doesn't gimp it TOO much, but it *is* nice to be able to read something within minutes.

Anyhoo I can format *most* ebook formats to work w/ the kindle as long as it's not specialized software which is ONLY made for a specific reader (like Sony). I'm sure you could probably do the same w/ Sony, which opens up a lot of free ebooks for you, as well as cheapies in .pdf or other formats.

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Thanks Tarot.

Being a Kindle user are you concerned about the Google-Sony deal? Honestly, that is the main reason I'm considering keeping the Sony reader. I already have a netbook so the wireless features of the Kindle don't hold alot of interest for me.


And of course the fact that I got a HD player a month before it became obsolete has made me super cautious.

No, I'm not really concerned about it. I do wish that all formats worked for all readers, because that would be best for the readers. I'm sure some people will prefer the design of the Sony. I know some people REALLY prefer the back light for example. Whereas I don't because of eye fatigue. I find it MUCH easier to simply light up my kindle with an LED book light.

I'd much rather see a war over the type of e-reader, each developing to appeal to their specific markets than a 'we have this content and you won't neener neener'. That just blows. I'd rather see it like an iTunes thing, where the content is available across various mediums, but people pick which mp3 player they like best, etc.

I would suggest personally trying out a kindle before you decide, I think they're still available at Borders.

I prefer the kindle and I've had no issues on content, but I've managed to find grey markets for content which isn't even available as an e-book anywhere. I have the entire Heinlein library for example (and I own most of the books he's put out in real book form). I paid a guy on the internets $100 for a disk of his entire library of books, he has a special scanner that scans in rare copies and translates them to various formats for example...and I got it specifically for the Heinlein series. Now, there's a fuckton of other sci-fi authors there, but I don't have most of them on my kindle. And in more than a few cases I've purchased books I read out of the library I bought because I *didn't* own them...and they were books I wanted to keep.

But that's just my own system of ethics. I bought the book because it was available as an e-book and dumped the copy (the e-book you buy also tends to be a more 'perfect' edition with nicer fonts, illustrations included, etc.). In cases where the e-book isn't available and it's a book I'd want to keep and the author is still alive AND the book is still being published...I plan on buying a copy and donating it to a poor school district. (Or other library as may be appropriate).

And I'm slowly whittling down my real book library, but my mother in law is ganking most of my books. Though a few of them she didn't like, such as 'One for the Money' heh.

Given that the Kindle is tied to Amazon, I don't see it being dumped any time soon, they're heavily developing it, and they have an Apple tie in as well, with kindle books being readable on iPhone. I ALSO don't see Sony going under any time soon either.

I prefer the Kindle, but I don't think anyone who gets a Sony reader is 'fucked'. I do think Kindle will outlast, but that's just my opinion, primarily because Amazon is such a major book retailer that most publishers will bend over to work with them.

And I couldn't be happier with my kindle.

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<necromancer>

Kindle 2 got a price cut to $299 today. Kindle DX still $489.

</necromancer>

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

The biggest thing I dislike about the 2.0 kindles is the lack of memory card slots. Yes, yes, they can hold 1500 books, but it's still nice to have a memory card you can pop in as needed.

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meh... just one more thing that can fail, or you can lose.

I wish they had 4gb on the base model though.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I have a 4g memory card. /shrug sooo they do. Though I think I'm using my 2g card atm because it doesn't 'support' 4g (can be buggy allegedly). With the memory card it's no issue to swap out.

I dunno it's probably bad gaming hold over to want the memory card for 'MOAR'.

It's also because even with search tools paging through 1500 books suchs with no subfolders. If they put in subfolders then I'd probably not give a shit.

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http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/ ... an-others/

I have to say, this was an interesting insight into how the kindle (and technology like it) changes some things, for better or worse....such as the concept of "all sales are final". Ironic that it was 1984 and Animal Farm that caused this revelation. heh.

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heh, I just got my Kindle yesterday. I fucking love it already.

And at least Amazon gave refunds to everyone who had purchased the now-removed books.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Did you get the K2 or the DX?

K2. DX just seems like too much money for too little. With the price drop, the K2 hits the right price point.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Nice. Congrats.

danke. now I have to learn to resist impulse book buying more =P

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Amazon gift cards. It sets a budget. And there are lots of free domain books available.
http://www.feedbooks.com/
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page

It was pirated copies of 1984 and Animal Farm, which is why the publisher had them pulled. Someone else took their product and put it up for sale. Since they were illegal copies, they were removed and people refunded.

There's still other legal copies of both books for sale on Amazon.

And yeeeees the kindle family grows. One of my friends was sick of listening to me yammer how great it was and he bought one this week, should get there on Monday. He also bought a K2.

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yeah you should read the hissy fits people are throwing for amazon taking the illegal copy away.

And they're right to do so. Those aren't "hissy fits". Those are people pissed off that Amazon has the ability to remove content at their discretion on a device they purchased. Those weren't "illegal" copies, they just weren't properly licensed as they weren't public domain in the US (they are in other parts of the world).

They are hissy fits. Sorry that some idiot posted pirated books for their personal gain. But it's like keeping stolen property after you've been told that it was stolen. And they were illegal copies. Just like the Harry Potter series were illegal copies.

The way Amazon handled it, no reason behind it, was stupid.

Again, they weren't illegal in other countries. ONLY the States. The publisher is actually fairly well-established with regards to public domain material. Again, using your analogy, it's like the cops taking your shit when you're not home because they say it was stolen with absolutely no warning or paperwork provided until AFTER the fact. You realize the slippery slope of DRM fun this is leading up to correct? THAT'S what everyone is bent out of shape about. It's the ability to do this, not the reasoning. Think beyond the omgwtfillegalpirates box for a second.

Well since Kindle isn't really offered to other countries I'm guessing that still makes them illegal here.