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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:00 AM 
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Just to preface this rant, I'm really not a grumpy git. I'm actually quite cheerful, easygoing, and lighthearted.
However, I'll understand if my previous posts regarding Black Friday, and this one, make me seem like a professional whinger.

Anyways, on to today's targeted rant - Christmas. Oh wait, sorry, I can't say that anymore. "The Holidays".

I know most of you know what I'm getting at here, but I'll link one random Christmas/Holiday article as an example - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27890640/

Essentially my argument is that it's absolutely effing ridiculous that "Merry Christmas" has almost become taboo in North America these days.

Political correctness and, dare I say, fear of retaliation from other religious groups, has cowed retailers into disassociating Christmas from.... well... Christmas.
Granted, one could argue that gift-giving and stuffing our faces isn't overly religous anyways, and fair enough I guess, but the point is that December 25th is, and always has been, a Christian holiday. If they want to exchange presents, or eat turkey, or dress up as the flying spaghetti monster and throw meatballs at eachother, that's their prerogative.

Now, to further this argument, let's just say that I've travelled a fair bit in the past few years, and I'm a firm believer in the "when in Rome..." adage.
I can't imagine ever going to a Muslim country, and throwing a fit because their local religious celebrations suggested that "their god was better than mine" or anything similar. Hell, I'd probably be drawn and quartered if I vocalized that complaint.
So why, then, do we bend over backwards to not offend other religions?!?
America, and Canada for the most part, *are* Christian countries. And Christmas is a Christian holiday. Hell, I'd consider myself atheist (I'm a firm supporter of Dawkins), and I don't take any particular offense to the phrase. Why would I?

*sigh*
What ever happened to freedom of speech, and freedom of religion?
Oh, that's right, they died under the oppression of political correctness.


PS - to end on a somewhat happy, lighthearted note, I wanted to quote a Christmas card I saw today:
"Thank you for your business this year. We look forward to servicing you in the New Year."
Am I the only one with a dirty mind, or did anyone else chuckle after reading this? :p


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:03 AM 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:08 AM 
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MERRY NEW THANKSGIVOWEENMAS


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:08 AM 
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Taboo to say Merry Christmas? What the fuck ever. Why the fuck does this stupid shit have to come back every year?

Say whatever the fuck you want, and let others do the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:26 AM 
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Aaramis wrote:
Granted, one could argue that gift-giving and stuffing our faces isn't overly religous anyways, and fair enough I guess, but the point is that December 25th is, and always has been, a Christian holiday.


I stopped reading here, as this is where you went from cranky to wrong.

As for the topic at hand, wish everyone whatever you want, and if someone gets offended, ignore them. Why martyr yourself over someone else's intolerance?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:57 AM 
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I have always felt that this was the single biggest red herring that the religious right has come up with for many reasons. They want to have the state proclaim every moment from Thanksgiving to Dec. 26th some kind of "religious" thing associated only with the Christian celebration of the birth of their Christ figure.

First, to switch from "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" is not removing religion from the public square. The word 'holiday' is derived from 'holy day'. No forced atheism there. A broadening of the holiday to include all religions certainly, but I can't see why that is a problem when every major religion and most minor religions celebrate something during this time. Even the more generic "Season's Greetings" implies the holiday season.

Second, about Dec 25th, EVERY christian holiday was chosen to replace pagan holidays, Dec. 25th included. It replaced Dec. 21st as a celebration of the winter solstice and many minor holidays around that date. Most interestingly to me, christians replaced the birth celebration of the Zoroastrians with their own birth celebration. I won't go into the parallels between those two (at the time) competing religions at the moment but any christian who believes their faith to be unique and singular should study the early teachings of the Zoroastrians.

Third, our founding fathers were, for the most part, Deists. They believed in a clock-maker theory of God, not the all-invasive christian God. Christ is mentioned nowhere in our framing documents for a reason.

And finally, retailers. If someone goes into a store on Black Friday they are not necessarily Christmas shopping. Why would retailers, whose only concern is their bottom line, cater to only a fragment (large though it may be) of their customers? It doesn't make business sense in a world that is becoming more diverse all the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:57 AM 
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Since, this seems to be the meat of the argument, I'll address this:

Quote:
Now, to further this argument, let's just say that I've travelled a fair bit in the past few years, and I'm a firm believer in the "when in Rome..." adage.
I can't imagine ever going to a Muslim country, and throwing a fit because their local religious celebrations suggested that "their god was better than mine" or anything similar. Hell, I'd probably be drawn and quartered if I vocalized that complaint.
So why, then, do we bend over backwards to not offend other religions?!?
America, and Canada for the most part, *are* Christian countries. And Christmas is a Christian holiday. Hell, I'd consider myself atheist (I'm a firm supporter of Dawkins), and I don't take any particular offense to the phrase. Why would I?


Specifically, when you're talking about Muslim countries here. THAT is what happens when you have intolerance. It's the fact that you can come to America and express yourself however you wish, along with our(IMO, comparatively to other countries in the world) high tolerance for people of all creeds/colors/religions and cultures different than our own. When companies do this in their stores, they are not ignoring the fact that we have a large Christian population that celebrates the holiday - in fact many of those store owners and managers probably celebrate the holiday *themselves* - they are simply respecting the fact that this particular time of the year is host to a good many holidays.

IMO it takes a special culture to be able to step back from the cultural traditions you hold dear(while still being able to practice them... the importance of Christmas happens to be your time with family, loved ones, and friends) and allow for room for others to step in and enjoy their own traditions without an assumption that they are celebrating the exact same thing you are. Most cultures simply do not do this, and force it upon you.

This kind of action puts as much as distance between religiously oppressive regimes and us as humanly possible. I for one think it takes a certain amount of character to say "My personal traditions, as important as they are to me, are less important than my willingness to demonstrate acceptance to those around me in a melting pot society that embraces diversity".

Freedom of speech and religion are still alive and well. Companies get to choose what they say/express, and so do you. You're perfectly free to put a manger in your front yard, and say Merry Christmas to whomever you come across.

If by political correctness you mean tolerance and acceptance, you're absolutely right.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:59 AM 
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Christmas, as celebrated by Christians is just a co-opting of the "Pagan" Winter Solstice. Leaders of the Christian Church decided that if they couldn't get their followers to stop following the old traditions then the Christian Church would make it theirs. They decided that they would celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec 25th. The 25th December was introduced as Christ's birthday only in 320AD.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:26 AM 
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For the record, yes I am aware of the background of Christmas, as well as Christianity and their dissassociation (destruction?) of anything pagan. This is part of the reason I don't consider myself religious, especially when we are discussing organized religions. But I digress.

Kulamiena and Venen - you're absolutely right, and in a way just confirmed my argument - that using political correctness to change "Merry Christmas" into "Happy Holidays" is silly, as the end result is that it is still religious. Just a little more covert, instead of overt. For me, to say "Happy Holidays!" or "Seasons greetings" and fine that perfectly acceptable, yet find "Merry Christmas" offensive is pure lunacy, and part of the danger of political correctness. Does changing the language we use really change the intent of those words? or does it merely assuage whatever guilt / fear we may have because the old words have become associated with certain things that we may not like?

Also - I'm not sure I would advocate America as having a "high tolerance for all creeds/colors/religions", especially given recent political elections. There is a depth of racism still present in modern-day America that I will never comprehend, and there is just as much intolerance when it comes to religion. I've met Americans whilst abroad who were practically shunned by their locals back home because they "only attended church three times a week". So while, for the most part, I think America is reasonably tolerant, I wouldn't say it's very high at all.

But again, I'm getting off-topic.

"IMO it takes a special culture to be able to step back from the cultural traditions you hold dear(while still being able to practice them... the importance of Christmas happens to be your time with family, loved ones, and friends) and allow for room for others to step in and enjoy their own traditions without an assumption that they are celebrating the exact same thing you are. Most cultures simply do not do this, and force it upon you."

I agree that it takes a special culture to do this. But is this what is happening?
I'm not so sure.
There is a danger there, I believe, in comparing political correctness to tolerance and acceptance.
Are we changing the words because we're tolerant? Or is it merely a marketing ploy? Or (to reiterate what was said above) is there an underlying fear, and we use political correctness as a way to comfort ourselves?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:18 PM 
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How dare retailers be encouraged to appeal to as broad a group as possible rather than assuming that everyone is a practicing Christian.

You can say whatever you like when it comes to this time of year, but no one is obligated to say it in return. Both Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays mean the exact same thing, the only difference being that one encompasses more people than the other.

If you're going to get your panties in a twist because people won't say what you want them to say, maybe you don't deserve to have a Merry Christmas OR a Happy Holiday :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:59 PM 
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Have a kick-ass Festivus.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:56 PM 
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A different point of view.

http://www.eselby.com/christmyth.htm

Quote:
Christ Myth
©1997 Ed Selby


We are all very familiar with the story: the child who will be the savior of his people is born surrounded by miracles and wonders. His mother became pregnant under mysterious and godly circumstances. His birth was lowly, hardly benefiting a king or a god. The birth was foretold ages before and announced by miracles and cosmic signs. The new baby’s life is in danger from the current king, and he must be spirited away.

This is the outline of the story of Jesus as we have come to know it, but it is also the story of Adonis, Dionysus, Mithras, Arthur, and literally hundreds of other gods and heroes of myth, legend, and religion. This story of Christmas is not new. It is older than the story of Jesus. Jesus is not now, and in fact never has been, the reason for the season.

At Halloween we talked about the myths and legends surrounding that glaringly pagan holiday – a holiday that many modern Christian churches are trying to turn their believers from because of its pagan and, in their eyes, demonic roots. Yet these same people embrace and honor the highest of pagan celebrations as part of their own religion, ignoring its roots and assigning new meanings to the old symbols. But as Saturday Night Live’s Stuart Smalley said, "That’s…okay."

During my spiritual and intellectual journey, I had a particular problem with Christmas. "Christ Mass" or the Feast of the Anointed One didn’t not ring true to my heart. I found no reason to accept the divinity of Jesus, as expressed in the Bible or as interpreted by those who contend that Jesus was real. I rejected his divinity, and his historical accuracy. I was not and am still not convinced that Jesus ever existed; therefore, a holiday celebrating his birth was a ridiculous concept, a Mad Hatter’s un-birthday.

Then, as I read more and more of the myths and legends of the world, and learned about the psychological and social necessity for myths, I discovered the ever-elusive Real Meaning of Christmas. As I learned to embrace myth and symbol, and to separate myth and symbol from superstition I discovered Christmas.

Time for a history lesson – this time of year is a universally sacred and special time, for it is the time of the Winter Solstice, the time when the Sun has died. Daylight is scarce. Nights are long and cold, and darker than usual. The harvests are in. The flocks and herds are gathered. Normal life is suspended, and there is the wait – the wait for winter to die. But the Waiting was okay because the folks of 4000 years ago knew that the world would restore itself.

To honor that, our ancestors embraced the symbols of life in the face of death, of light in the face of darkness. Great fires were lit on mountaintops and in fields to ward off the darkness and the cold, not as a physical shield, but as a psychic or spiritual shield. To them, the dark and cold were real and palpable entities and required real and palpable forces to drive them away.

These traditions were earthy to say the least. The peasants and workers of the fields were filled with superstitious beliefs. But as societies became more "civilized", the festivals didn’t disappear. Instead, they became fully ingrained in the lives of the citizens. So deeply ingrained, in fact, that we are still celebrating them almost as they originally existed.

There is no clue in the Gospels to the time of the year when Jesus is supposed to have been born, but we can safely deduce that he was not born in midwinter, because that is the rainy season in his part of the world, and shepherds would not be out at night. Jewish mothers cherished birthdays, but Jesus’ mother, Mary, seems to have forgotten it, or just decided to leave it out of her own story. Early Christians found themselves in the awkward position of telling the world of the most tremendous birth there ever was on this planet and being completely unable to say when it happened. It was centuries before anyone tried to give Jesus a birth date, but again we can assume that he truly wasn’t born in the year 1.

So for several hundred years the various Christian churches celebrated the birthday of their savior on different dates. The eastern churches generally kept it on January 6th, where it remains for some and which is now the Epiphany. Other churches chose April 24th or 25th; and some placed it in May. It was not until 354 CE that December 25th was chosen as the anniversary of the birthday of the Christ.

Why December 25th? Why not the 1st or the 10th or the 30th? The church that established December 25th was the Church of Rome. It was then the leading church of its day (and arguably still is), and what Rome said was accepted. But why did Rome wait so long to apply a date, and again, why the 25th?

The ancient Romans had a marvelous and hedonistic festival called Saturnalia. As mid-winter approached, Rome was lit up with joy. This was the festival of the old vegetation-god Saturn who (as a god) died, or was displaced by Jupiter, the sky-god, but Saturn had a fine temple on the Capitol, and his festival lasted seven days and was the most joyous time of the ancient Roman year. For one day slaves are free. They associated freely with their masters, partied with them, drank their wines, and ate their food. This was the one time of the year when slave and master were equal, and it is a tradition that exists to this day in the form of our office Christmas parties.

In ancient Rome during the Saturnalia, stalls laden with presents lined the streets near the Forum, and the great present of the season was a doll usually made of wax or terra cotta. Hundreds of thousands of dolls lay on the stalls or in the arms of passers-by. Perhaps at one time human beings were sacrificed to Saturn, and, as man grew larger than his religion (as we constantly do), the god (or his priests) had to be content with effigies of men or maids, or dolls.

Crowds filled the streets and raised festive cries. It was literally a time of peace on earth -- for by Roman law no war could begin during the Saturnalia -- and of good will toward all.

For the whole week, from December 17th to 24th, no work was done (again, another tradition that exists in modern America – unless you are in retail or finance). The law was good cheer, good nature. But the 25th also is a solemn festival, for it is marked in large type on the Roman calendar "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun."

But this is just the beginning!

Nearby to ancient Rome, in what is now Iran and Iraq, was the home of another and even more prosperous Asiatic religion. Mithraism, as it was called, gave the early Christians a very hard time. Not merely because it spread more rapidly, and was more respected, but because it was so strikingly like Christianity.

Mithra was an Aryan sun god. The reform of the Persian religion by Zarathustra had put the deity Ahura Mazda so high above the old nature-gods that he was practically the one god. But Mithra stole upward, as gods do, and Persian kings of the fifth century BCE put him on a level with Ahura Mazda.

Then the Persians conquered and blended with Babylon, and Mithra rose to the supreme position and became an intensely ethical deity. He was the sun of the world in the same sense as Jesus. He was honored with the sacrifice of the pleasures of life, including a life of celibacy. Drastic asceticism and purity were demanded of his worshipers. They were baptized in blood. They practiced the most severe austerities and fasts. They had a communion supper of bread and wine. They worshiped Mithra in underground temples, or artificial caves, which blazed with the light of candles and reeked with incense, and every year they celebrated the birthday of this god who had come, they said, to take away the sins of the world; and that day was December 25th.

As that day approached, near midnight of the 24th, ancient Christians would have seen the stern devotees of Mithra going to their temple on the Vatican, and at midnight it would shine with joy and light. The Savior of the world was born. He had been born in a cave, like so many other sun gods. Some of the apocryphal Gospels, the ones that didn’t make the final cut, put the birth of Jesus in a cave instead of a stable. Mithra had had no earthly father. He was born to free men from sin, to redeem them.

F. Cumont, the great authority on Mithra, has laboriously collected for us all these details about the Persian religion, and more than one of the Christian Fathers refers nervously to the close parallel of the two religions. The Savior Mithra was in possession, had been in possession for ages, of December 25th as his birthday. He was the real "unconquered sun" -- a sun god transformed into a spiritual god, with light as his emblem and purity his supreme command.

The Saturnalia and "the birthday of the unconquered sun" and the birthday of Mithra were not all. A Roman writer of the fourth century, Macrobius, in a work called "Saturnalia" discussed the practice of representing the gods in the temples as of different ages. He says:

"These differences of age refer to the sun, which seems to be a babe at the winter solstice, as the Egyptians represent him in their temples on a certain day: that being the shortest day, he is then supposed to be small and an infant."

This is confirmed by, and receives very interesting addition from, an anonymous Christian writer, the author of the Paschal Chronicle, who had an explanation for the reason Egyptians worshipped a virgin goddess and a magical child. He says: "Jeremiah gave a sign to the Egyptian priests, saying that their idols would be destroyed by a child-savior, born of a virgin and lying in a manger. Wherefore they still worship as a goddess a virgin-mother, and adore an infant in a manger." (Col. 385 in the Migne edition, vol. XCII.)

The deity is Horus, a very old sun god of the Egyptians. Horus was the son of Soirees and Isis, who was the sister and the spouse of Soirees. "A virgin mother" is a matter of words. In one Egyptian myth she was made pregnant by Soirees in their mother's womb: in another and more popular, she was miraculously impregnated by contact with the phallus of the dead Soirees. Virginity in goddesses is a relative matter.

Whatever we make of the original myth, however, Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, around December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world. His birth festival was a real Christmas before Jesus.

All of this sounds awfully familiar doesn’t it? But there is still more!

In nearby Alexandria there was a similar Greek celebration on December 25th of the birth of a divine son to Kore (the "virgin"). The general idea of a divine son being born in a cave or other humble surroundings was common. J.M. Robertson gives three in his "Christianity and Mythology". Hermes, the Logos (like Jesus in John), the messenger of the gods, son of Zeus and the virgin Maia, was born in a cave, and he performed extraordinary prodigies a few hours after birth. He was represented as a "child wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger." Dionysos (or Bacchus) was similarly represented. The image of him as a babe was laid in a basket-cradle in the cave in which he was born. There is good reason to think that Mithra was figured in the same way.

But there is even more to undermine the "truth" of the Jesus story as unique and somehow special.

In the ancient nations north of Nazareth and Bethlehem, there were other mid-winter festivals, the greatest and most sacred of their year. To these northern barbarians, shuddering in the snow-laden forests beyond the Danube, the return of the sun was the most desired event of the year, and they soon learned, approximately, the time -- the winter solstice -- when the "wheel" turned. For them, the sun was figured as a fiery wheel; and as late as the nineteenth century there were parts of France where a straw wheel was set on fire and rolled down a hill, to give an augury of the next harvest.

Hence "Yule" (from the same old Teutonic word hoel or wheel) was the outstanding festival of the ancestors of the French and Germans, the English and Scandinavians. The sun was born; and fires ("Yule-logs," such as are burned in British homes at Christmas today) flamed in the forest-villages. The huts were decorated with holly and evergreens – plants that seemed to defy the death brought by winter. Yule trees were laden with presents, and stores of solid food and strong drink were lavishly opened. This lasted for 12 days.

Thus almost the entire civilized world of more than two thousand years ago "had its Christmas before Christ." "The figure of Christ," says Kalthoff, "is drawn in all its chief features before a line of the Gospels was written." At least the figure of Jesus in what is deemed its most captivating form was drawn in every feature long before it was presented in the Gospels. The first symbol of the Christian religion, the manger or basket-cradle of the divine child, the supposed unique exhortation to humility, was one of the most familiar religious emblems of the pagan world. Had it been exhibited to a crowd in one of the cosmopolitan cities of the Roman Empire, it would not have been new, unique, or overtly special. One person might pronounce the child figures name as Horus, another Mithra, another Hermes, another Dionysos; but all would have shrugged their shoulders nonchalantly at the news that it was just another divine child in the great family of gods. The world flowed on. Only the names were changed.

So here we have all of these ancient cultural influences, each with its own importance and firm entrenchment with the people who followed the beliefs. What is a good Christian to do? Let’s not delve into the political history of ancient Rome and Christianity. Let’s take it as a given that the Roman church had great sway over the rulers of the time, and what they did was a move that has been repeated over and over again in the history of Christianity. If you can’t beat ‘em, and you refuse to join ‘em, at least make it appear that you defeated them. So sometime between 354 and 360 CE, a few decades after Emperor Constantine’s conversion to Christianity (a great milestone in world history), the celebration of Christmas was shifted to the day of the Unconquered Sun. Thus the birthday of the Christ was born.

Whew! I hope everyone was taking notes, because there will be a quiz on this during coffee.

So what do we do with this information? What I did, and I believe I was wrong, was reject the whole notion of Christmas. Combine gross commercialism with consumer-competition to celebrate the divinity of a baby that has as much historical validity as a real person as all of his archetypal predecessors and you have the perfect Bah Humbug for an unbeliever. But then my Christmas miracle occurred. I’m not sure exactly when it happened, probably while reading something by Joseph Campbell or Carl Jung, but I began to revel in the symbolism of Christmas. There is so much light-heartedness and joy in the symbols that like the Grinch, my heart grew to embrace it.

The evergreen trees that we decorate with twinkling lights and trinkets and tokens of our past harkened to the days when our ancestors would light candles and lamps against the darkness and cold of the world. These dancing beacons of warmth and almost living light, serve to inspire us to be lights unto the world. Not in any parochial religious sense, but in a universal spirit of peace, community and love.

The Christmas tree stands for me, as it did for my ancestors, as a symbol of life's determination against all odds to persevere. Faced as we are with all manner of perils today, we can learn from this symbol.

Even the childness of Santa Claus (by the way, we all know that Saint Nicholas was a real character -- the myths surrounding his life are another talk altogether – he died on December 25th) is not lost on me. Even though he is a supernatural being that defies all logic and sense, I can’t help but see the magic his myth does in the eyes and hearts of children. I get frustrated with my fellow humanists who say that we should sit the holiday out, just not participate because doing so lends credibility to the myths and superstitions upon which much of the holiday is based.

I think they are making a mistake. To not celebrate deprives us of the opportunity to build bridges to our fellow people, rather than more walls to further divide us.

Second, I feel to develop a neo-scroogean "Bah Humbug" attitude to the holidays tends to lend credibility to a myth about humanists -- that we're just a bunch of nay-sayers who have nothing else to do but complain and shoot down other’s beliefs.

I feel it is imperative that humanists and non-theists continue to join in the general merriment, and celebrate the symbols of warmth, light, peace and community! It ain’t hurting anyone to do so.

But the name… Christmas. We need to do something about that. It separates the Christian from the non-Christian, the atheist from the theist. Yule still smacks of the supernatural. Generic "Holidays" lacks the warmth and fun of the season. Christmas divides us. I like the name conjured on Seinfeld a few weeks ago – a new holiday for those of us who can’t do Christmas or Hanakuh or "the holidays". From now on for me, its time for Festivus! So to you, my friends, my family, my fellow UUs, a happy and joyful Festivus. May the light and warmth of the season fill your hearts with joy and your homes with love.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:38 PM 
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If people are stupid enough to be 'political correct' against their will then sucks to be them. :P

I'm an atheist who loves Christmas and celebrates it in a completely secular way, don't give a shit how Christians celebrate it, or if they think I celebrate it wrong, if they want to take credit for the holiday, go ahead. Thanks!

As to what to call it? To me it is Christmas is and has been Christmas since I was a little kid. However, when it comes to wishing someone happy holidays I do it as such. Why? Because I don't know what the fuck they celebrate and I will not assume. Wishing a happy thing-you-don't-celebrate to someone is quite pointless. Might as well not wish them anything. :P

My greeting cards/drawings/graphics/whatever however always have Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, why Happy Holidays? Because again, I don't know what some people celebrate yet I still want to wish them a good time. =P

As for Christmas being religious no matter what? I disagree, you can have a wonderful celebration with family and loved ones without invoking or involving any sort of deity. Don't need god to have a kick ass time eating Grandma's tamales, mmmmm, can't wait. :)

Really, who gives a shit what they call it. It's a beautiful time of the year where most people around you seem to be extra cheerful (except the ones bitching and moaning about 'happy holidays...' :P), just enjoy it. Comes January and the world is back to sucking. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:51 PM 
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I guess I'll just chime in with the rest and say that I can't recall ever seeing what you're talking about. I'm an athiest and I say Christmas. /shrug

Usually when someone says "The Holidays" I just assume they're talking about the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year bundle.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:01 PM 
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how many fucking atheists are on this forum?

I'm a devout atheist (snicker).

I like xmas too, but just for the kids. Giving adults gifts is retarded in this day and age - unless you are wealthy. Most people can afford to buy stupid shit when they want it, and the stuff they can't afford, well, nobody would spend that much on them anyway.

I want a DSLR and a 55"+ LCD TV for xmas. I don't need another fucking John Deere calender or pair of socks.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:24 PM 
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There is no war on Christmas. Stop buying into the bullshit of the religious right.

And as everyone knows I'm an atheist, and I don't care if someone says 'Merry Christmas' or 'Happy Holidays'. I celebrate Christmas because EVERYTHING I celebrate about it, is non-religious and merely iconic of the holiday. You can try to co-opt the Christmas tree as some religious symbol and I'm sure for some people they can or have MADE it THEIR religious symbol...but it's just something pretty and seasonal to most others.

I'm not Christian and I don't believe in any gods, so my celebration of Christmas and saying Merry Christmas doesn't mean I'm celebrating Jesus or the birth of Jesus or anything. I'm sure to many/most Christians it is for THEM but attempting to force use of 'their' terms in some bullshit religious propaganda way is just silly.

It's not going to promote or detract from one's personal faith either way.

And frankly if you're a Christian and actually follow Christ's teachings don't you have more important things to do with your spare time? Again, atheist here but I'm far more worried about other things over the holidays than what the Wal-Mart greeter says to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:41 PM 
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there is a war on christmas -- at least the word. tarot is wrong

i say merry christmas just because i'm a guy who loves christmas


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:46 PM 
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There is no war on Christmas. Stop buying into the bullshit of the religious right.


It IS amusing to me though. To see one of the most nosy, judgemental, intrusive and - well, if we're using the term - warmongering demographics around crying foul that THEY'RE being picked on. =D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:00 PM 
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Kulamiena and Venen - you're absolutely right, and in a way just confirmed my argument - that using political correctness to change "Merry Christmas" into "Happy Holidays" is silly, as the end result is that it is still religious. Just a little more covert, instead of overt.


What? I didn't say it was silly, I *embraced* the concept of political correctness that leads to a switch among retailers from Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays. Now, that's not to say I dislike retailers that choose Merry Christmas as their greeting - far from it. I just don't mind either of them, while I still admire those who are willing to say "Happy Holidays" instead out of respect for tolerance.

Quote:
For me, to say "Happy Holidays!" or "Seasons greetings" and fine that perfectly acceptable, yet find "Merry Christmas" offensive is pure lunacy, and part of the danger of political correctness. Does changing the language we use really change the intent of those words? or does it merely assuage whatever guilt / fear we may have because the old words have become associated with certain things that we may not like?


I have not heard of a retailer who has specifically said that they found "Merry Christmas" is offensive to people. I'm sure to a few people it is, but you're assuming far too much if you suggest that retailers are doing it purely out of fear or guilt. Their primary motivation is obviously sales, so I'm not saying they're being altruistic by any means. However, the reasoning can either be out of guilt/fear as you say, or out of the desire to be far more welcoming and tolerant(which fits the profile: People feel more welcome in the store, and they shop there).

Quote:
Also - I'm not sure I would advocate America as having a "high tolerance for all creeds/colors/religions", especially given recent political elections. There is a depth of racism still present in modern-day America that I will never comprehend, and there is just as much intolerance when it comes to religion. I've met Americans whilst abroad who were practically shunned by their locals back home because they "only attended church three times a week". So while, for the most part, I think America is reasonably tolerant, I wouldn't say it's very high at all.


Compared to other nations? I would without a doubt say, certainly high on the list. The mere fact that we ARE a melting pot without consistent riots in the street is a testament to that. Racism is still prevalent, but how many other nations have the same situation that we had? That is, a large minority group that was oppressed for hundreds of years - and tell me that other nation doesn't come out of it without problems that linger. Since the days of MLK, we have made INCREDIBLE progress IMO. And in 150 years that same minority group has gone from having almost every one of them be a slave and second-class citizen, to today where a person of the same group(yea yea, no ancestry, but the point that he is within the same group of people remains) has been elected to lead the country.

As far as religion goes, again we have a very diverse group of people with that regard - certainly Christians make up the majority, but we also have very large minority groups(as well as the different denominations, etc). You won't find a more diverse group with regard to religion that ALSO gets along as well as we do(for the most part), or at least you'd be hard-pressed to.

Canada and other small nations yap about how they have gay marriage laws. You have to realize, most of the nations that adopted these laws were left-leaning already socially, not to mention a society with a population of 33 million as opposed to 300 million is a little easier to go around persuading. Try going into China or India and changing the minds of a billion people about a particular aspect of their culture. It's far easier to reach out to smaller populations.

In short, you're looking at little conflicts that we have between different groups from the inside. Try looking at it from the world's perspective from the outside.

Quote:
I agree that it takes a special culture to do this. But is this what is happening?
I'm not so sure.
There is a danger there, I believe, in comparing political correctness to tolerance and acceptance.
Are we changing the words because we're tolerant? Or is it merely a marketing ploy? Or (to reiterate what was said above) is there an underlying fear, and we use political correctness as a way to comfort ourselves?


It may well be out of fear for some people, but never eliminate the possibility that the political correctness in question is done out of the motive to improve tolerance. To do otherwise is assuming the worst.

Your quote:

Quote:
Political correctness and, dare I say, fear of retaliation from other religious groups, has cowed retailers into disassociating Christmas from.... well... Christmas.


Again, this is far too presumptious. I'll make a deal: I won't say that no retailers are doing this just because they're afraid of retaliation, if you won't say that ALL retailers are doing it out of fear of retaliation =p

It needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. There's absolutely nothing wrong with someone geniunely trying to be politically correct out of a desire for more tolerance and acceptance.

If it is out of fear... Well, I would not fault someone necessarily for saying something that they believe should bring no hostility towards others. On the other hand, I'm not so sure I would be so quick to condemn someone who decided that they did not want to say or do anything that provoked hostility, even if that means being a little more quiet and less outspoken about their particular holiday celebrations. I can't necessarily fault someone for trying to avoid conflict where possible, though I also have respect for someone who stands firm in what they believe in.

But that being said: Choose your battles. If it's very obvious that someone is going to be upset by something you say, I don't know why I would say it over something that trivial. The holiday spirit is in my heart and with my family, not in what I say to complete strangers.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:11 AM 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:34 AM 
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Either or is acceptable in current societal communication IMHO. Because I am Catholic, I say "Merry Christmas"... if someone is upset with that, then whatever they say goes in one ear and out the other. And I move on with life.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:16 AM 
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i'm down for whatever being publicly accepted if it stops radio and tv shows from using the tired "merry christmakwanzakkuh" crap. it wasn't funny a decade ago, and it has not gotten funnier from using it every year.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:20 AM 
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I am a Aethiest and i celebrate it because its a fun holiday. I do say Happy Holidays though dunno why.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:20 AM 
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Heh, I've been getting more and more people I know to call it Saturnalia (besides the super-fundies of course). All the fun stuff and none of the BS.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:26 AM 
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I'm an agnostic who has always said Merry Christmas, and even prefers that. But I really don't give a shit what others say, and I don't understand at all why people do.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:28 PM 
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This has been a trumped up media story for what, the last 4-5 years?

And still, each year, the majority of the public seems to come to the same conclusion; Who cares?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:51 PM 

As a Christian and Youth Minister I have no preference. Since it's personal to me, my beliefs, actions, practices, etc. more adequately define the meaning to myself and to others than what I say or what someone says to me as I walk through the door at Wal-Mart.

I don't get caught up in the whole "Taking Christ out of Christmas" arguement. If Christians or whomever is worried about taking Christ "out" of something, there are far greater things to worry about than this topic.

I think it would be far more effective if Christians acted more "Christ-like" and exemplified love than expressing their dogmatic, controlling opinions.

Overall, I get tired of this kind of stuff because of our religous freedoms. I don't know why people are always trying to change and/or fight stuff like this all the time. You have the freedom to not believe just as I have the freedom to believe. I should not have to give up my right to satisfy someone's preference. We all have the equal ability to practice, belief, ignore, or listen to anything we want.

If anything, especially with the Christmas Carol arguement I read a couple of years ago, I believe it shows people are no different than the dogmatic old timey religious nuts who are obviously too insecurity and/or strong enough to stand on their own beliefs.

Let's just all say what we want for Christmas and attempt to preserve a little peace and love without taking everything so personal. If I wish someone a Merry Christmas that doesn't mean I'm saying Happy Jesus Birthday, Sorry You're Going to Hell but, I would rather someone see that I am merely being neighborly, kind, and wishing you and enjoyable holiday. To me, that speaks louder to someone about my beliefs than fighting over the words.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:08 PM 
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Merry Christmas, but if someone wishes me a Happy Holidays- I will return with a Happy Holidays to them.

It's pretty much along the same lines of saying "God Bless You" when someone sneezes. (please see Dane Cook- sneezes) I always say God Bless you, its out of habit- noone has ever jumped on my ass about it.

Noone has ever jumped on my ass about Merry Christmas either. ALTHOUGH..... my nativity scene under my tree has brougth up issues. I am Catholic and bring up my children that way. My sister-in-law doesn't practice religion, and so her kids don't either. Now thats her choices, her kids, her life- I have never said anything about it, nor has she to me.

Last year my nephews were over and it was the first time they either saw or payed attention to the bottom of my tree. They asked all about it, and in a general matter I told them about it. I wasn't hard core- pray or die! There was no, I'm going to heaven, your going to hell. Basically a quick story of how they wound up in a manger, the wise men, and the star on top the tree.

I found out via pissed off angry phone call- that my sis-in-law did not appritiate that at all. She yelled n cussed, told me she will not put up with that kinda shit and on n on. Personally I never thought about what she would think with me talking to her kids. They asked me about it...so maybe I was a bit wrong, but how else to of handled it, I don;t know. I told her/explained what I told the kids- how they asked me and I said I was sorry. What else could I do?

Sooooo, the next weekend my nephews went to their grandmas for the weekend (sis-in-laws mom). Who took them to church! let's just say.... I was forgiven and we agree we can answer each others kids questions the way we want to. (if her kids ask again, I can explain again, lol)

Back to her kids.. her oldest (12) now goes with his grandma to church weekly. Her other 2 have no interest in any of it. I am proud of my sil and her oldest. Her for not being narrow minded, and him for venturing out on his own and learning/accepting a religion. At 12, with no mom making you go- thats impressive.

To each their own- and with that I say.... "Merry Christmas, God Bless you, and Kiss my ass! "


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:00 PM 
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DraagunSoulstealer wrote:
how many fucking atheists are on this forum?

I'm a devout atheist (snicker).

I like Christmas too, but just for the kids. Giving adults gifts is retarded in this day and age - unless you are wealthy. Most people can afford to buy stupid shit when they want it, and the stuff they can't afford, well, nobody would spend that much on them anyway.

I want a DSLR and a 55"+ LCD TV for xmas. I don't need another fucking John Deere calender or pair of socks.


I corrected your spelling.

Have a Merry Christmas!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:40 AM 
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The best gift of all. Praise Jesus.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:31 AM 
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Miramicha at Work wrote:
DraagunSoulstealer wrote:
I don't need another fucking John Deere calender or pair of socks.


I corrected your spelling.

Have a Merry Christmas!


You missed calendar.

Happy Chanukah.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:38 AM 
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I was talking about the John Deere series of hard pressure rollers at the end of the paper making process. Duh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calender

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:26 AM 
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Fuck. Will the god damned Rapture come already so I can be rid of you religious fuckheads?

It's either that or mass genocide, and I'm feeling lazy this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:08 PM 
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I'm Catholic so I say Merry Christmas, if you want to return a Happy Quanza or Merry festivus I don't care. That huge post about Adonis or whatever gave me Dr Fucknut flashbacks, did anyone seriously even consider reading the whole thing? As for athiests saying Merry Christmas, who cares, maybe it will make their kids ask someday about the meaning of it and they will discover the benefits of religion.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:43 PM 

I think Festivus is a great idea. Gather around the pole, tell everyone what problems you have with them, and then wrestle around until someone's is pinned.

I think it would make a great release before entering another year.

It's a Festivus MIRACLE!

But seriously, I really love gathering together with the family (we average around 60 each Christmas at my Grandmothers), playing games, eating, reading the Christmas Story (birth of Jesus, not Ralphy), singing carols, exchanging gifts, playing more games, and then watching Ralphy. I don't think that's harming anyone or do I shove it down anyone's throat but, regardless of your religion or beliefs, I hope everyone attempts to capture the meaning of family.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:02 PM 
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Guurn wrote:
As for athiests saying Merry Christmas, who cares, maybe it will make their kids ask someday about the meaning of it and they will discover the benefits of religion.


Free shit and self-righteous sense of entitlement and persecution?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:35 PM 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:38 PM 
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So are you guys atheists, or just anti-religion?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:49 PM 
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Speaking for myself, I'm neither. I have a belief system but consider belief a private matter rather than public so any cry of persecution by any organized religion is, to me, unsavory because they shouldn't be shoving their religion down anyone's throat.

Having said that, I find it ridiculous to be offended when someone wishes you well, regardless of the words they use.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:50 PM 
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So are you guys atheists, or just anti-religion?
Both.

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Free shit and self-righteous sense of entitlement and persecution?


Wait, what are you talking about again?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:51 PM 

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Unabashed snobbery due to the delusional belief of an exclusive eternity of hot god orgies and gold palaces in the sky?



Quote:
Free shit and self-righteous sense of entitlement and persecution?



Very unfair... Just because the face of Christianity in society (and as portrayed by the media) is predominantly displayed by people who simply claim to practice or be a part of it does not mean those people/experiences define, represent, or reflect its true meaning and purpose.

I am not sure if you are joking or what... it's fine since we are totally entitled to our own opinions and beliefs... but if those statements are reflections of your idea or conclusions of Christianity, then you have not truly been around it.


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yeah but asshole atheists are just as bad as asshole christians, and it's kind of funny the way they can hate something so similar to themselves

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:58 PM 
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Happy Holidays until you get to Merry Christmas until you get to Happy New Year.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:14 PM 
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randy wrote:
yeah but asshole atheists are just as bad as asshole christians, and it's kind of funny the way they can hate something so similar to themselves



No kidding. I can't stand the 'THERE IS NO GOD AND YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE' crowd. It ignores the obvious; there are many intelligent people who are believers. My main issue though is that they're making a positive claim (there is not/cannot be a diety). While I don't *think* there is, it's unknowable. You can't prove a negative, you simply wait for evidence/proof. So while I can say, well there's no unicorns, etc. I can't say there CANNOT be or has never been a unicorn. Just that the evidence indicates, etc.

One must be clear in distinguishing one's opinion from statements of fact. I don't believe in any gods, and I really don't think there are any gods out there. And clearly I'm pretty sure of it. Just as I'm sure there are no unicorns (as we mean the term here, I'm sure someone could graft a horn onto a horse but that's not really what we're talking about ;)).

And if someone had evidence of a unicorn sure we'd want to see it. Or sub in bigfoot because there's been SO many 'claims' of evidence, some of which is honest mistake, most of which is anecdotal personal experience which can't be evidence as we mean the word in this context, and a whole lot of fraud.

Most believers clearly do not fall under the 'fraud' catagory. But the people who make bleeding statues, claim miracle cancer cures and other assorted bullshit are generally the most vile of con artists, preying on people's hopes and despair.

Those types of monsters make one wish there was a entity who could arbitrate 'fair' (though now would be much better than 'later'). ;)

Nope most believers fall into the faith catagory. They have strong beliefs with no evidence, which is why it's called faith. That just doesn't work for me.

Anyhoo asshole atheists, of which there's no shortage, are just as embarassing as the Christian assholes are. It's just that in the US atheism is a much smaller group so we have fewer of them (only due to statistics, not because we're somehow 'better'). Unfortunately because we're SUCH a minority the loudmouths tend to really color what atheism is, so most people have a wrong idea of what it is.

I guess this is the best explanation I've seen:

Quote:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:06 PM 
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As for athiests saying Merry Christmas, who cares, maybe it will make their kids ask someday about the meaning of it and they will discover the benefits of religion.


Same thing I grew up familiar with? Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer, Snowmen, Santa Claus, Elves, and yummy food?

For the record, I grew up a Catholic and none of my Christmases had Jesus in them outside of the highly stylized crystal nativity scene my mom had, and the huge plastic lit one my grandma had on her porch, that was adult stuff. The focus for us kids was always Santa and Christmas Specials on TV. Religion was never part of it (though it was there, especially growing up in Mexico, however like I said, that was adult stuff). :)

I love my bad catholic parents and terrible catholic extended family.

Also, asshole atheists can go fuck themselves as much as asshole religious people. =)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:15 AM 
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Just because the face of Christianity in society
Who said anything about christianity?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:24 AM 
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Who said you weren't talking about Christianity?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:45 AM 
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Who said you were talking about me?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:57 AM 
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Who says I wasn't?





ps: At this point I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore :p


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:01 AM 
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You can't prove a negative, you simply wait for evidence/proof. So while I can say, well there's no unicorns, etc. I can't say there CANNOT be or has never been a unicorn. Just that the evidence indicates, etc.


This gets said a lot. The problem is, the burden of proof lies with the religious folks, not the atheists. Making some wild claim and then saying, "You can't DISprove it!" doesn't suddenly give you a strong logical leg to stand on.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:20 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
I find it ridiculous to be offended when someone wishes you well, regardless of the words they use.
Thank you, Kula, for being the warm rational center of of a thread full of ridiculousness.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:29 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Quote:
You can't prove a negative, you simply wait for evidence/proof. So while I can say, well there's no unicorns, etc. I can't say there CANNOT be or has never been a unicorn. Just that the evidence indicates, etc.


This gets said a lot. The problem is, the burden of proof lies with the religious folks, not the atheists. Making some wild claim and then saying, "You can't DISprove it!" doesn't suddenly give you a strong logical leg to stand on.



Proof and faith are mutually exclusive.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:44 AM 
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I didn't address the issue of faith, merely the issue of the "You can't DISprove God!" logic that so many wackjobs try to present.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:15 AM 
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and at the end of the day, I don't really give a shit what mythical beings you believe in, as long as you aren't dictating public policy based on the unprovable teachings of said unprovable mythical being...

prop 8 for example

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:19 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
the burden of proof lies with the religious folks, not the atheists.


who's proving what in what court now

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:51 AM 
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This gets said a lot. The problem is, the burden of proof lies with the religious folks, not the atheists. Making some wild claim and then saying, "You can't DISprove it!" doesn't suddenly give you a strong logical leg to stand on.


The burden of proof does indeed lie with those who make a claim, however, you also can't automatically dismiss a claim without evidence to support your universal dismissal.

Now, you can quite easily say "There is little to no evidence to support your claim" and suggest that your answer makes more sense from that standpoint(as well as pointing to various reference in the Bible or other beliefs that may seem unlikely).

But, on the flip side, to suggest that "There is no God" also requires some belief on your part in that you have no evidence to support the claim of nonexistence. Like Tarot said, there's no evidence for unicorns, but you can't *rule it out* without scanning 100% of the universe's material. That's part of my problem with strict atheism, in that it goes against science. To rule something out based on belief goes against reliance on factual data.

It's not a "strong logical leg" necessarily that goes towards proving their own belief, although I would suggest that it points to the concept that it's illogical for one to dismiss the idea of belief without fact with their own version of belief without fact.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:02 PM 
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The burden of proof does indeed lie with those who make a claim, however, you also can't automatically dismiss a claim without evidence to support your universal dismissal.


Yeah, in a lot of cases you can. Really. If I told you that an invisible pink elephant monster was behind you with a super soaker and you'd better duck, I highly doubt that you'd really fret over not having any proof of the elephant monsters non-existance.

I know that was silly, but the point is that unless the initial claim has SOME substance, I really can't find much of a reason to require substance when debunking it. Especially in the realm of "does exist" questions.

And besides, if we REALLY want to nitpick, the evidence and substance for providing the proof of God not existing already exists in bulk. Most everything about God and his acts and stories and whatnot directly conflict with pretty much all scientific observation.

Now I'm sure someone will provide me with some links about how some scientists did some creative interpretation and research and found how X or Y biblical story could have happened, or how some scientist just made a shot in the dark with some theory that ended up being correct in the end...but that doesn't address the core issue anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:09 PM 
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Rarely an intelligent atheist would say "there is no god". They (we) say "there most likely isn't a god".

If there were proof tomorrow, I would say "there is a god". Same with unicorns, goblins, dragons, zeus, shiva...

If I say I have a unicorn in my garage would you believe me? Probably not. Experience of our natural world and understanding that people lie would make you skeptical of the unicorn in my garage. HOWEVER, in this case, we can go see. I either have one or I don't.

What if I said I had a unicorn that only I can see in my garage. Why would you suddenly believe and respect that idea? Would you say, "Well, I can't see it, but he seems pretty sure, therefore it must really be there". Now, what if I started a business and said my magical unicorn has told me how to fashion healing sticks, and "for only 19.95 one can be yours"! How would you feel about it then?

This idea that we have to respect other people's delusional notions is absurd. Respecting those dangerous thoughts and not challenging them is what allows the Peter Popoffs, Benny Hinns, and suicide bombers of the world to exist.

Please do not embrace stupidity and irrationality because you are afraid you are going to hurt somebodies feelings.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:12 PM 
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Yeah, in a lot of cases you can. Really. If I told you that an invisible pink elephant monster was behind you with a super soaker and you'd better duck, I highly doubt that you'd really fret over not having any proof of the elephant monsters non-existance.

I know that was silly, but the point is that unless the initial claim has SOME substance, I really can't find much of a reason to require substance when debunking it. Especially in the realm of "does exist" questions.


No, you really can't, not factually. There is a very, very big difference between saying "X does not exist" and "X is unlikely to exist", especially if you're speaking scientifically. In science, you can't say "It's unlikely, therefore it doesn't exist". You need to back it up with fact and direct evidence for the fact that it doesn't exist. This is why we have "theories" and the like, instead of more scientific "laws".

Now, obviously with the pink elephant, I'm probably not going to look over my shoulder for it if the evidence you've given me doesn't support the claim that the elephant is there. But, by the same token, I cannot rule it out unless I actually LOOK.

The bottom line is that you can't rule something out without evidence that it doesn't exist. Unlikely does not equal categorical dismissal.

Quote:
And besides, if we REALLY want to nitpick, the evidence and substance for providing the proof of God not existing already exists in bulk. Most everything about God and his acts and stories and whatnot directly conflict with pretty much all scientific observation.


Evidence yes. Proof of nonexistence, no. There are infinitely many possibilities and caveats we can throw into play if you want to point to "Well, he couldn't have done this." They may not be likely scenarios, but they cannot be ruled out with evidence either.

Course, it also depends on whether or not you want to take a literal translation of the Bible(again, possibilities for scenarios can still be made). If you just say "God is a magical figure that exists beyond space/time", then it's pretty hard for you to gather up proof of nonexistence.

In that case, without anything else(Bible or anything) - you have no proof for, and no proof against.


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