http://www.peta2.com/cutoutdissection/c ... ection.asp

I wish someone would dissect that fat bitch.

How annoying. What an inconvenience for people with normal names and on top of that, how pretentious is she to think that anybody gives a fuck what her name is?

PS: How are there fat vegans/vegetarians?

Stupid.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

The vegetarians eat a lot of cheese. The vegans eat a lot of tofu and soybeans, which have plant estrogens that make you put on weight. And moobs with a side of erectile dysfunction if you're a dude.

Sarissa Candyangel

People like that derive their self identity from being on the losing side of arguments. There's no reasoning with such people.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

I can't say I mind the concept of trying to do what we can to cut down or eliminate dissection and needless killing of those animals. I'd tend to agree that 3d computer modeling and/or real life 3d models could do the job and more. It doesn't seem like it's all that necessary in this day and age.

I'd probably be more in favor of it if they managed it similar to some of the companies that do "free range" chicken farms: that is, allow the animals to live out a good chunk of their lives and nearer to the end kill them humanely, as opposed to the factory farm setting.



I was simply going to say: "They eat too much of it". Doesn't matter what the hell you eat, if you stuff yourself you'll gain weight. But this'll do too.

Ok, that rainbow video was pretty funny lol..someone should show her a rainbow on her CD collection...see if she starts smashing them in a panic.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Dissection is necessary, both medically and academically imho.

Most educators will absolutely disagree with you. There is a world of difference in seeing the structure of anatomy through a picture...and through dissection.

My chemistry professor had a long LONG rant about the lack of lab work in some courses. Some colleges and universities are looking to add 'chemistry' to distance education by either eliminating lab work (for non-science majors) or through computer interactive lab work.

I've done the lab work, and as you know I'm pretty damn computer saavy through immersive gaming. I absolutely agree that you simply cannot replace real world lab experience with computer modeling. It is just NOT the same at all. In the lab when you fuck up (and you will fuck up) it requires usually substantial work to correct it. You may have to scrap your entire lab setup, clean everything, dispose of all your chemicals, and start anew...with a time crunch. You have to be physically cautious of everything you do. Lab errors are important components as well, being able to identify them etc.

Additionally you use all your senses in the lab (except taste, DO NOT TASTE!!!). You're just not going to experience the smell of sulfur via a computer.

Now all that being said, when it's impossible to provide a lab, computers are second best. Just as they're valuable when human cadavers aren't available for all medical students, etc.

But being able to dissect an animal is amazing, and imparts critical lessons to children that they're simply not going to get out of a book or off a computer screen.

And it's done humanely. Remember PETA are big fucking liars.

Honestly in high school I questioned whether or not I wanted to do it, I love animals quite a bit (and I'm only not a vegetarian because I'm lazy and ultimately I don't think it's healthy, sorry guys! But mostly lazy) and I questioned the morality of it. I did participate, everyone treated the dead frogs with respect (because a nun taught the course who didn't put up with any bullshit) and I learned more through that experience than I ever could have with the best modeling programs (and I've seen those programs). Even though the programs better highlight some of the muscle structure and organs etc....seeing them in what was once a living being, and finally understanding how it works...nothing short of amazing.

I already had a deep respect for living beings before that, but they all seemed even more incredible to me forever after.

And you just don't get that from a plastic model, or a computer sim.

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money shot

I have to agree with the chemistry lab experience. We have one guy in our group who has so far:

a) Grabbed a sample directly off a hotplate, not realizing the 'low' temperature is in Celsius
b) Poured bromine into a beaker from which he just emptied acetone, the explosion was impressive
c) Held a beaker of potassium iodide over his head, tilting it to use the ceiling lights to find something he dropped in it

In high school we only dissected a fetal pig, and then after reading an anatomy text for a semester. I don't see how it can be represented with a model. And it's one of those few experiences that help you decide whether biology, surgery, etc are right for you.

Sarissa Candyangel

If you're really going to college for a veterinary or a serious biology/anatomy degree or something, yeah. I can see the importance.

But the amount of animals that are killed just so that junior high school kids can cut them up and laugh and play with the body parts is stupid. There's no need for dissection in the overwhelming majorty of classes in the school system. It's just silly.

Are we running short on fetal pigs?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Not judging by the turnout on University and Philips Highway every evening...

One frog for 2 students. I've killed more frogs trying exotic dishes than the one who died to give me a better understanding of biology.

And we did not 'play' with them, or laugh at them, or any such nonsense. The nun who taught my class didn't put up with any such bullshit.

And if I take the advanced biology course I have my eye on...I'll be dissecting a cat. I have three cats as pets. I can assure you that no one in my presence will laugh and play with the body parts. Nor are any of them killed purely for that purpose. Thousands are killed due to lack of homes, and ours are from local kill shelters.

You can believe it's unnecessary, despite the fact that educators and others involved in science explain the necessity of it....and where simulations and plastic models simply are lacking. You can believe that the life of any animal is more important than that understanding, you're entitled.

But to simply proffer up that people make it a mockery, is obscene. And if your class did so, then shame on you, them and the instructors involved.

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I will agree that the physical rigors of actual dissection are hard to duplicate, even with a fairly complex plastic model(which would be expensive no doubt, if it was a good one). And I'd agree that particularly those majoring in biology and similar fields probably need to have these things. But I wouldn't readily dismiss Bovinity's point there about the necessity of it for junior high or even high school classes, either.

My concern is not necessarily with the dissection process itself - we get that people in classrooms can be mature and teachers can enforce good well-meaning standards - the concern is with HOW they get there, HOW they are killed, and whether they get to live a full life or not outside of a factory farm environment. And, of course, how many need to be killed in the first place to accomodate those early grade school(if they even do it there, I doubt most do), junior high, and arguably high school students.

One of my chief concerns is how they are treated by the overseers of the slaughterhouses, how much of a conscience they have about animal treatment, and how much pain these animals have to endure before they are killed - and, indeed, whether they are humanely killed or not.

Um, just because YOU didn't, and some nuns that ran YOUR class cracked down on it doesn't mean the rest of the world with its public schools and 14-year-old students don't. And the fact that you're trying to compare a class that you're taking at your age, in college, to what goes on in High School/Junior High School is silly.

Don't try to make it sound like it's some hallowed, respected, important process to a pre/mid-teenager. Because it isn't. Or at least it isn't to 99.9% of them. It's something that is done FAR too early in most curriculums.

The class in which I dissected a frog, was in high school.

I've never seen a science course which allowed students to "play with the parts", nor have I heard of it. Is it common for students to make jokes? Sure. Is that acceptable? To a degree. To what degree? A very limited one. Some use humor or nervous laughter to adjust to situations which make them feel uncomfortable...to that degree it's understood and often allowed. Beyond that, no.

Which is true of any class, otherwise the teacher simply isn't in control of the students, which clearly indicates a serious problem with him or her.

Additionally I've never seen dissection of any vertebrate done prior to 8th grade, any dissection earlier than that is usually done with gifted students in advanced science courses (or by instructors who feel they can cover the material, usually in private schools) and involves worms.

Perhaps you can point out any done earlier than that. Otherwise it's earth science in 9th grade (physical science which is the precusor to physics and chemistry for advanced students), biology in 10th, chemistry (elective) in 11th (lab for advanced students) and physics in 12th (advanced only). And the only dissection that takes place in any of those courses, is in biology in 10th grade.

And it is always optional. Meaning that students can take the 'F', or as is more common (but does not always occur) they can do an alternative assignment. Most instructors who do not allow an alternative assignment by choice, do allow it if/when a student cannot handle dissection...which does happen. And it's done that way because there are MANY students who don't believe they want to or can do it...who once they do it find it fascinating and get quite a bit out of the assignment.

Your assessment of students, based I can only assume on your experience, is really...really fucked. Either you had an incredibly shitty teacher or you were in a very lousy district. That can happen too...but it doesn't make it the sum of all experiences.

I'm not just basing it on my experience either, especially since Catholic school education is very different in most respects from public school (especially since they could and did HIT students when I was a child and yes I was hit). But I'm also basing it on my own observations in classrooms (because I've been considering teaching in science) as well as the experiences of my friends children who are now mostly in high school or college (jesusfuck I feel old) and many friends who are educators.

Including my mom. Who quite frankly my biased opinion aside, is probably one of the best teachers I've ever met. She tolerates no shit in her classes and was always the one teacher kids seemed to be afraid of (in the 'ooo you're in troooouble' way) yet still has students 20 years later who remember her and stop by constantly. She's commonly listed as their favorite teacher of all time. Which is just an aside, but one that makes me personally proud of her. (And if I do teach, I seriously doubt I'll ever be as good quite honestly.)

I've also seen bad teachers who failed to control their classrooms too. 99% of the time truthfully, it was their own fault. I've seen it in 'good districts' and I've seen it in bad ones. It doesn't make them bad people or anything, it's easy to lose control, and once lost...almost impossible to regain. But that was also a lesson I learned young seeing a long term sub come in, and lose complete control of a class (to the point where students were abusive to her) and when she later taught at my high school she had no such problem. Whatever mistakes she made, she didn't make them again. And she lived locally to me (nice older lady in her late 60s) who later thanked me for never telling other students about her out of control class. (I didn't mention that my own mother pulled me aside and told me I was never ever to mention it, and why... ).

Anyhoo...the belief that students get no value from it, is easily disproven by the many students (myself included) who DID get educational value from it.

As I said previously you CAN have completely valid opinions which are pure opinion...such as the belief that the life of an animal is worth more than such an experience, etc. I won't agree...but it's a valid opinion for someone to have.

But that *some* students abuse educational tools, or refuse to avail themselves of it...we might as well argue against computers in school because some computer instructors are fat lazy slobs who let the kids play video games all day and surf for porn. Because it may occur doesn't make it commonplace, or standard.

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Even if the kids don't play with it or any number of other silly things, it's still just a novelty when done that early.

8th grade? Come on. Even as late as 10th grade I'd argue that it's simply too early and a waste of animals/resources.

I just don't see the value of wasting animals and resources on something like dissection on children that are so young, unfocused, and are only in biology because it's a required class. Even if, as you present, it's taken seriously and controlled and whatnot, it's just a waste on children that young. And I don't feel that it's a good tradeoff, if you're going to compare "Animals to knowledge" the way you are.

It's not that I'm against dissection and study of animals. Of course not, like I said I think it's a neccessity if you're going to teach students about the animals they're supposed to study/protect/help/etc. But overall the value is just lost if you show a dead animal to a 13 year old.

I graduated 8th grade in 1986, was born in 1972. So I was 14/15 freshman year of HS, 15/16 in 10th grade.

That's pretty average, so in 10th grade we're allowing these "children" to drive cars.

Palin's pregnant daughter was 15 when she got pregnant, and will be 16 as a mother 'keeping her baby'...something many people have touted as such a positive thing. (Not me, but hey)

I'd say they're old enough at the same age to understand and benefit from the dissection in science class.

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I took Human Anatomy & Physiology my Junior year of high school. At the time, MA required Earth Science in 9th, Bio in 10th, Chem in 11th, with optional electives (Physics, AP electives, Anatomy & Physiology, etc) after that. However, if you were tracked into Honors-level science, all of that happened a grade earlier, so I was hypothetically 'done' with science after my sophomore year.

We had to dissect a cat. No high school is going to get human cadavers, and cat anatomy is remarkably similiar to human anatomy. The first class we were told that our cats came from animal control / kill shelters, and that there were two things that would happen to them after being euthanized - they would become either dissection cadavers or fertilizer.

Is that true? I don't know, but it seems logical. So until there's some way to eliminate the need for kill shelters, it seems reasonable to me to use cats for dissections.

And I say that as someone whose cats are effectively his kids.

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Hope is the new black.

Complete apples and oranges, I'm disappointed in you Tarot!

I have a BS of Chemistry, and I can tell you there is a huge difference between videos and performing a live dissection. I would also contend that understanding how things work and how many things have to go right just for a single breath might give students a greater appreciation of life, saving more animal suffering in the long run.

Fixed that for ya Jay

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That's missing the point. Are some kids not going to take it seriously, goof off, play with the body parts, try and gross out other people in the class? Sure.

I would submit to you though those kids are usually the ones not that interested in school, or at least in anatomy. We see kids all the time in class not paying attention. Getting into med school or vet school may not exactly be an interest to them.

It doesn't make it worthless. The whole point is to expose kids to different subjects, so they can find what interests them. If even a few kids find their calling in life from an anatomy class, it makes it more than worthwhile.....not to mention having a basic working knowledge of anatomy is helpful, so you can understand how your own body functions even better.

They can get interested in anatomy and biology without needing to kill an animal in the process.

I'll just say again that it seems silly to me to kill a bunch of animals to show to kids at such a young age. It's just far more than is needed to get the desired result, and far too little return, even if you assume that some kid who wasn't interested in anatomy before suddenly loves it because he saw some frog guts.

Bov - the animals are slated for execution anyway. Would you rather just landfill or burn the corpses, or give a chance for learning?

I'm visualizing a bunch of frogs chained up to each other marching down a prison hall towards the execution chamber.

Since when were ALL of the animals that are killed for dissection purposes for innumerable schools and universities across the country "slated for execution anyway"?

I'm having problems giving a damn.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Whole lotta amphibious criminals out there!

C'mon, guys, relive a few mistakes that really taught you a thing or two about life. Do you really believe intellectual understanding is an honest substitute for visceral understanding? For actually experiencing things for yourself?

I sleep better knowing that the people designing my antibiotics carved the pig themselves.

I think you kinda missed the point. No one is saying that folks in medical and other related fields shouldn't be trained on actual animals/cadavers.

but they can sometimes be inadvertently amusing

http://www.peta.org/cooking-mama/index.asp?c=pcmgb08

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I might just play that all day.

I dissected a cat in college. The only thing I learned is that people are so uncomfortable dissecting cats, that many wouldn't do it.

Oh, and getting cat juice on your face sucks just as bad as you would think it would.

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And now it seems PETA wants us to believe that fish are sea kittens. Are they not the most screwed in the head people?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=99249669
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090110/ap_ ... itten_high

I had a response to that campaign when I heard about it a few months ago:

Reminded me of this MSNBC article which sounds like a PETA member railing against dairy. Not to mention the errors in the article.

Hahaha, that's awesome Tarot.

Also, I love their Tuna story. Tuna lady loves to get in tight places and be close to other fishies! But, she HATES to be in cramped farms where she has to be with other tuna fishies!

I don't get it, she either loves being in cramped spots or she doesn't! Tuna lady is so indecisive she's better off in my sushi.

Would help if I copied the link. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28641673

Fair enough idea on their part. It's unfortunate and short-sighted that most people only give a shit about an animal if you can cuddle with it and it's furry. Call it something else, and it brings attention to the obvious.

I still think the 2003 study done by the Roslin institute is about as close to conclusive as we've come so far. Very straightforward, per the abstract:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 5#m4.bcor*



If it were merely reflex on their part, the effects of the noxious chemical would not produce nearly the number of different behaviours there. We see reactions in animals, such as insects, that we know for almost certainty do not feel pain - and those reactions don't match what these fish are doing. The subjects here were literally trying to stop the very source of the pain. Given that it's a chemical application, it's not as if their tail was chopped off or something and they had a natural reflex to it.

Sea kittens indeed =)

Guess I shouldn't be surprised though. Whenever some entity comes along and declares that something we've been doing for a long time(or something we haven't cared about historically) is wrong and thoughtless, people will always have this knee-jerk reaction that the status quo is just fine, and to go away.

My conclusion is that people hate to be told to do something different, or told that they're wrong, and most people just shut their brains down until they can manage to convince themselves that they're wrong. Then it becomes "Well I knew it all along!" after they've processed the logic.

I'd contend we see the "DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" more often in 8-year-olds, but I'm less and less convinced of that =/

Who knows, cats might be fucking delicious. Pain is just a natural warning to the body that something is wrong or something is bad. It doesn't make me feel sorry or make the fish any closer to human.

And we still have very little data suggesting that any other animals feel pain in exactly the same way we do, or at least interpret it and feel emotions the same way we do. We can't know for sure. But we can look for obvious signs, which is what was done above.

Closer to being human? /shrug, depends on what your qualifications are. The farther you go down in the food chain, the less you'll find complex emotions and brainpower - closer in that respect? Certainly. It may be a natural reaction by a body, but that doesn't imply that it doesn't have additional brain capacity compared to other animals.

The implication here is not whether you feel sorry for it or not, but what the resulting expansion of animal cruelty laws will be(assuming they expand).

Heh, we know cows feel pain yet it is still legal to do this:

NOTE: The following is very violent, if you don't want to see how your cows are slaughtered do not click, especially if you eat kosher food.

http://www.retard.tv/cow-slaughter-vide ... human-way/

That video was shock bullshit.

"throats cut out while fully conscious"
"dismembered alive"

Apparently they missed the pneumatic gun that is used to kill the cow before all that. Fucking retards.

I remember seeing a study showing that grass feels pain.

You'd be surprised. There's been quite a few "studies" (I use quotes because I'm sure they're only really studies in the loosest sense of the word.) where slaughterhouses have been called out for sacrificing humane kills for the sake of efficiency.

A pneumatic pin with a 2 inch diameter to the brain stem is humane and efficient.

And cow is delicious.

Bz, that's a kosher farm. They don't do the stun gun. I mentioned in the disclaimer what it was.

Anyway, yeah, I love beef. The point of linking the video was because I found the "Maybe we can make better laws for fishies!" comment a bit funny when we cramp chickens in tight spaces, cut their beaks, and still kill some cows the way it was shown in the video.

KOBE BEEF

I have no problems with kosher beef. Kosher methods are generally far more humane (they require ethical conditions for the animals throughout it's life. In many instances this means free range animals). And they use the methods they do because it's humane. Cows must be killed by an extremely sharp knife, and their throat slit (while they're being prayed over.)

They don't use more modern methods because one of the requirements is that the animal be conscious, and that method be used because it was the most humane way to slaughter an animal.

Animals slain with a dull knife, or who had excessive pain in their slaughter are NOT deemed kosher.

Does watching any mammal with it's throat cut seem horrific...yep. Of course it does. Yet let's compare it to human execution where we paralyze the person first...not because it's "humane", but rather so the audience doesn't have the discomfort of seeing any contortions or grimaces. It's one of the main challenges to lethal injection; that it's probably an agonizing death for the person undergoing it. They're pretty much being strangled, and since they're paralyzed, no one has to see it.

Cutting their throats would certainly be more graphic, but I think I'd want that option.

Of course, I personally think the pneumatic gun is the most humane, when used correctly. But it's primarily used for speed and ease. Kosher killing is *also* humane, but it is more costly and slower. And given that to be labeled kosher involves the entire life of the animal being a humane one...I tend to buy some meats kosher.

Though I'm not religious about it Tah dah dum dum

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I was also reading an article earlier in response to the video, I forgot who it was by I can't find it again, but it was an agricultural organization (so obviously biased against it!) , it explained the animals are supposed to go unconscious almost immediately after their throats are cut, a small number don't... and we have the star of our video. Who supposedly even stood up after being gutted.

But, yeah, I have never bothered to look up the living conditions of the animals kosher or not. The little I know is that a lot of the animals we eat are packed in crowded places (except for California cows of course! They are happy cows who give happy milk!), so maybe Kosher is better than that. Sucks if the cow you eat does a little zombie dance before kicking the bucket though!

After seeing this and other animal slaughter videos though, pain or not, fishies still seem to have it better.

If a throat is cut correctly, the blood is pretty much cut off to the brain so rapidly that they're unconscious within seconds. If the correct arteries are not severed then there's the potential for essentially drowning. It's pretty horrific to look at and even worse to hear, but it's also relatively quick.

If you want to eat meat and also want to assure yourself that the animals are dealt with humanely, you can buy part of a cow from many small farmers. They will allow you to see their farm and come slaughter time you will 'share' the meat with other people. It's a shitload of cash upfront, but you end up paying slightly more per pound than you would for ground sirloin and it includes high quality cuts that would normally cost a shitload more. But you have to have a big meat freezer to do it.

I have friends that purchase from local farms, but prefer 'fresh' meat, so they buy small amounts year round. It's more expensive than grocery stores, but they know exactly where it comes from and how they were fed, and that they have no hormones or antibiotics (unless they were actually sick and needed them).

Or you can check out companies that sell meat in the store and assure yourself that they're using humane methods that you're okay with.

I don't expect my meat to have had a fairy tale like existence culiminating with dying peacefully in their sleep...but I don't support an animal chained in a stall in 2 feet of fecal matter with hoof rot either. Fortunately there's a middle ground and most meat is raised and slaughtered very humanely.

Conversely you can always go vegan...which I would if I wasn't so damned lazy. Plus I could never give up dairy.

And meat is tasty. I'm an omnivore. /shrug

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Yeah, dairy is something I'm not willing to give up ever again, there's just no way I'll willingly stop eating cheese. Years ago I also refused to give meat up, I like it... I love burgers! And my body is made to digest it so...

So, I just have to get used to the things I dislike about slaughtering. Because, yeah, I used to hope that one day I would be able to afford what you wrote about, but that doesn't cover when I go eat out at restaurants. So, it becomes pointless. I guess it is one of those things where, yeah, I can make right choices, but in the end reality is a certain way and just gotta live with it.

"Makes me want a hot dog real bad."

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