Two men killed in separate shootings in King County<
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THE ASSOCIATED PRESS<
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SEATTLE -- The King County sheriff's office says two men were killed in separate shootings within a half hour of each other in south King County.<
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One man was shot as he opened his door and struggled with someone shortly after nine last night in Maple Valley. Two other men were in the house but they did not witness the shooting and police have not arrested a suspect.<
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In the other shooting, the sheriff's office says a man and wife were arguing at a house in Ravensdale when the man was shot by his 16-year-old son. The son is under arrest.<
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OK now the unofficial report. On the first shooting I was not on the dispatch list but its my understanding that the man was shot with his own gun, I dont know much more then that because I was not there but the second shooting was about 5 miles away and I was first in the door on that one. The man was shot by his son with his own rifle. Neither even made it to a hospital, they died on scene. Im not a gun control nut or anything but when I see this kind of thing in our town and I walk out of a house covered in the blood of a dead guy it makes me rethink my position. At least they could have kept the guns in a safe or something locked up and they would likely be alive. Willey<
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Sig to come...WILLEY

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. <i></i>

Sadly people are far more likely to be killed by guns they own, than they are to have their lives saved by owning a gun.<
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Not a reason to ban them, but a statistic people should be aware of when buying guns specifically for 'home protection'.
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Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
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Stupid people found ways to die and to kill others long before there were guns. <
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"It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional."
-A. Scalia

Ive got a much better chance of patching your ass up and getting you to a doc before you die if you got stabbed or beaten or something. A gunshot is two little bittey holes a whole lot of blood and even more internal damage that I can do nothing about. There is a HUGE difference between guns and everything else used "long before there were guns". Willey<
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Sig to come...WILLEY

I like shooting skeet.<
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I like shotguns.<
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I train with them, I know how to be safe with them, the inherent risk in owning a gun is something I accept.<
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Simple as that for me... it's my choice. <i></i>

The fewer guns around, the less people tend to die, has been my experience. Handguns in particular make people want to kill other people, because they can, and that's their purpose. <i></i>

I can see this turning into a long ass thread. I agree with Arkayn, guns don't kill people. <i></i>

Yes, Zakakab, less people die from guns when guns aren't around, shocking!<
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Stabbings go up, beatings, etc.<
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A few years ago(not sure if it is still this way) a child was more likely to drown in a 5 gallon bucket then be shot by a gun. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

This looks like a thread for...dun du du dunnnnn...KARTHUN! <i></i>

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"Be glad there was a keyboard, monitor and miles of fiber between us when you typed that."

"State that opinion in my presence, you fucktard, and I'll show you how valid it is when I'm kicking the shit out of you."

Quote: Yes, Zakakab, less people die from guns when guns aren't around, shocking!<
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Stabbings go up, beatings, etc.<
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Back that bullshit up.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

wtf? Guns make people want to kill people? Guns control our minds? Holy shit. <i></i>

http://www.roughwheelers.com/mon...n_cam.html<
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Working hard to keep YOU safe. Syuni D'zpecyzczn<
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a thousand lives across 65 levels<i></i>

I've always thought if guns were outlawed, law abiding people wouldn't have any, but all the criminals still would, afterall their criminals, they
eak the law. That isn't something I'd like to see.<
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Oh, and I dont trust the government, and as a result, am suspicious of all police and military.<
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But then... I'm paranoid. <i></i>

Quote:I've always thought if guns were outlawed, law abiding people wouldn't have any, but all the criminals still would, afterall their criminals, they
eak the law. That isn't something I'd like to see.<
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It sounds reasonable. <
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Fortunately we can look at actual data of countries with strict gun control vs. those that don't, and see that this clearly isn't the way it plays out.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

Do you realy want me to pull North Dakota on your asses? <i></i>

Quote:abiding people wouldn't have any, but all the criminals still wouldThis has always seemed to be a silly argument to me. It makes us good people seem as if we will suddenly be overrun by criminals and that guns are our only defense. We won't and guns make for very poor defense. <i></i>

Quote:Sadly people are far more likely to be killed by guns they own, than they are to have their lives saved by owning a gun.<
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Smart Gun technology will help significantly reduce this number, excluding suicides of course.<
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I do keep a handgun in the house, but it's disassembled, and even then has a gunlock on the grip. It wouldn't come in very handy against someone attempting to
eak in, but with a steel fire door and cinder block walls I don't worry too much about that. Besides for quick assistance I can always pick up one of my swords, heh. Arch Lich of Lanys (Retired)<
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I'm too lazy to bother looking, I'll just rephrase.<
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People don't stop dying from crime with the absence of guns, they get killed by other things. Not to mention even in countries with gun bans there are still gun deaths. Shockingly the criminals still have them, /gasp!!!!<
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Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

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And yet, far, far less, sir.<
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Make it easier to kill people, and more people die. It's that simple.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

How's that logic work? We have maybe 1 homicide per year in my area, I personally own 3 guns, and most of the people around here own guns.<
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It's not the guns. It's the people. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Actually, stricter gun laws only hurt the law abiding citizens. The criminals don't give a shit, they'll get a gun and use it regardless. They count on the ignorance of the politicians and citizens crying for stricter gun laws. Why you ask? So the next time they decide to rob, murder, etc., there's a good chance the people they're after will be unarmed and helpless. <i></i>

Quote:Actually, stricter gun laws only hurt the law abiding citizens. The criminals don't give a shit, they'll get a gun and use it regardless. They count on the ignorance of the politicians and citizens crying for stricter gun laws. Why you ask? So the next time they decide to rob, murder, etc., there's a good chance the people they're after will be unarmed and helpless. <
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That might hold true in the US, but, I don't think it is always the case. Canada has strict gun laws and much less murder is committed by gunshot than in the US (adjusted for population, of course). I would have to go find figures to support that statement (and I am too tired to do that tonight), but, I felt and WAS much safer in Canada than I am here in the US. <
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When households don't tend to have guns, criminals don't always need, nor do they bother to try to find, guns to commit their crimes - because they don't think they will be shot if they
eak in, etc. <
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When I lived in Canada, we rarely heard about shootings. They are a bit more common now in urban areas than they used to be I think, but, still not on the US urban scale. And, it is rare to hear of kids taking guns to school because their parents don't own them, and kids are usually not about to go far into the criminal jungles to find one (and they surely can't buy one at the corner store, if even their parents can't). <
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I am sure many of professional criminals do have guns even in Canada if they figure they will NEED them, but the petty criminals generally don't up there. <
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As a result, I maintain that the theory that if criminals have guns, people need guns for protection is a fallacy (or would be if one could start over in this country thereby erasing the idea that this is truth from people's minds). Unfortunately, here, we can't just start over, and changing the whole system in one fell swoop would not make this country turn back the clock and behave as though it was Canada. <
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So, here it could actually be truer than elsewhere - because of history and the laws as they stand. The crooks expect guns, they carry guns, and people carry guns because the crooks carry guns. But, not so, elsewhere. <i></i>

I hope all of you who have guns never piss off your 16 year old son and have him shoot you in the chest. Do you think in this case the 16 year old would have been able to kill his father if he didnt have a gun? For all I know that gun was put away in a safe spot, taken apart, unloaded, trigger locked, and any other means of disabling it. It was a sad day because there was a gun in the house that someone other then its owner could access. <
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The mother is lucky in her own respect because she was apparently standing behind the dad when he was shot and the bullet went straight through the dad, the wall and god knows where it went from there. It was a rifle after all.<
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This thread was not supposed to be about every ones view on guns or people doing the killing it was only supposed to make people think about what happened to one family and maybe learn from their tragic day. Willey<
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Sig to come...WILLEY

Quote:This thread was not supposed to be about every ones view on guns or people doing the killing it was only supposed to make people think about what happened to one family and maybe learn from their tragic day.<
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I did do exactly that. Sorry, I forgot to mention it before I moved on to address what someone else said. In my case, that kind of tragedy can't happen here, but, it concerns me that it can and does happen elsewhere - as do the reasons why it can and does. <i></i>

Here's a good reason to own a gun...<
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http://www.dallasnews.com/shared...4b8cb.html <i></i>

NORTH DAKOTA <i></i>

I own a total of 10 firearms that consist of 2 revolvers, 2 semi autos, 3 shotguns and 3 rifles. All ten are locked up in a gun safe in my bedroom and only my wife and me know the combo. My kids don’t know the combo and I didn’t take any of them shooting until they were adults. It takes me about 12 seconds to open the safe in the dark. I also have two dogs and a security system on my home along with motion lighting front and back to alert me if needed. <
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I think I've taken reasonable precautions and consider myself a very responsible gun owner and hunter. I keep most of my ammo locked in ammo boxes, which are then locked in cabinets in my garage, but I do keep some ammo in the safe for protection. I belong to the NRA, Ducks Unlimited and I do some volunteer conservation work. <
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Every time I read a story regarding irresponsible gun owners, I worry about yet another needless restriction being placed on us responsible owners. These stories stand out and are always big news but the bottom line is that you’re at far greater risk of dying in an automobile accident than you are of being shot. <i></i>

Quote:I hope all of you who have guns never piss off your 16 year old son and have him shoot you in the chest. Do you think in this case the 16 year old would have been able to kill his father if he didnt have a gun?<
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Grats being a shitty parent.<
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Children that grow up in a house hold where they're educated with guns don't have problems.<
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There's yet to be a school shooting with a kid that actually knew what they were doing enough to do it and get away. Any kid with any real knowledge of guns could sit outside a school with a decent rifle and pick off who he wanted and leave without any problems.<
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The rural areas of this country have very little gun issues, it's the crazy urban mother fuckers who really don't seem to give a shit about themselves or anyone else that go around shooting people all willy nilly. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Quote: Do you think in this case the 16 year old would have been able to kill his father if he didnt have a gun<
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Sure, he coulda grabbed a baseball bat and smashed his head in. Or any other blunt object. Almost anything is possible.<
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Heck depending on the size difference between father/son, the kid coulda just beat dad to death if kid is bigger. <i></i>

"...don't have problems like that."<
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I know someone will try to make some comment so I'll go ahead and half ass fix it now. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Quote:Sure, he coulda grabbed a baseball bat and smashed his head in. Or any other blunt object. Almost anything is possible.<
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Heck depending on the size difference between father/son, the kid coulda just beat dad to death if kid is bigger.<
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Sorry the image is so clear in my head I didnt describe it very well. The father was 350lbs + and 6foot + tall (feet hung over the backboard so he was over 6 but I never saw him standing so im not sure) the kid was no more then 125. <
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For the record I can treat a smashed in head far better then a through and through GSW to the chest. A bullet goes through the chest cavity and leaves one small hole on either side of the body, the exit being slightly larger then the entrance. In between those two points is a 6-8 inch ring of jello consisting of whatever organs were in the path. Its basically sonic damage. The passage of the bullet is not very harmful in its self, the rippling effect it has on the way through is what will kill ya. A high power crossbow does not even do that kind of damage. <
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Jateki I hope you never piss off your wife <
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DO you can educate people all you want, emotion can still get the best of a well educated gun user.<
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Still...none of that is reason enough to warrant legislation against gun use but it should be more then enough to get people thinking about how they can be even more responsible with their guns. Willey<
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Sig to come...WILLEY

Since Canada has such a low rate of gun related homicides, I wonder how it fares when other types of crimes are compared to rates in the US. You know, burgularies, rape etc. It would stand to reason that since the source of crime was guns all crime should go down in their absense. Ya, I realise that isn't at all what you meant. Still...<
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Quote: * Burglary /
eak and enter rates are higher in Canada than in the United States – roughly 908 per 100,000 in Canada to 741 per 100,000 in the U.S. in 2001 (“Crime Comparisons Between Canada and the United States,� by Marie Gannon, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 2001.)<
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* Motor vehicle theft rates are higher in Canada than in the United States – roughly 547 per 100,000 in 2001 in Canada versus 475 per 100,000 in the U.S. (“Crime Comparisons Between Canada and the United States,� by Marie Gannon, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 2001.)<
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From another source,<
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Quote:For the year 2003, per 100,000 population, Canada had 8,530 crimes, and the U.S. 4,267. For crimes of violence, 958 vs. 523. For property crimes, 4,275 vs. 3,744.<
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Quote:2.5 million crimes are prevented each year by defensive gun use in the US<
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There seems to be some disagreement regarding the crime prevention numbers regarding gun use. Most sources I googled seemed to claim there is a net gain costwise having armed citizens. That would lead the loss of life to be the primary concern. <i></i>

You mean "I hope you don't piss off your unstable <insert cohabitant here>"?<
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I'm sorry, but normal people do not grab a gun and shoot their parent in the chest.<
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Sarissa Candyangel <i></i>

Quote:What ever happened to "crazy"? - Chris Rock Arch Lich of Lanys (Retired)<
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Quote: Jateki I hope you never piss off your wife <
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DO you can educate people all you want, emotion can still get the best of a well educated gun user.<
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Still...none of that is reason enough to warrant legislation against gun use but it should be more then enough to get people thinking about how they can be even more responsible with their guns. <
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Well, this year makes our 20th year of marriage and our 23rd year together. Sure she has been upset with me and others many times in her life, but that doesn't mean you want shot someone. That’s just stupid man and not even got troll bait. I myself have been really mad on numerous occasions, but the thought of taking one my guns and shooting someone never came to mind. Then again, I don’t go around beating people up either, and the consequences of that action is much less than murder wouldn’t you say? <
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I mean really, are you so worried about owning a gun because of your own inability to control your actions and emotions? If that's the case, you shouldn't own a gun. I guess that's why people who are convicted of domestic violence, or are suicidal or are drug users are denied. I’m all for education, I’m all for people owning gun safes, and taking some safe handling classes and them taking their guns to the range for some practice a few times a year. I just don’t think we need new laws requiring it. <i></i>

I am just like Jateki, I have ummm....13 guns. 8 shotguns, 3 rifles 2 muzzle loaders. No handguns. Just don't see the need for one in my situation but I am not against them.<
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All my guns except for one, are kept in a steel re-bar enforced gun closet in my garage. The one that isn't is kept in a corner beside my bed. Shells are in a finger lock safe right beside it. Takes me about 5 sec to get the first shell in the tube.<
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Cars kill more people than guns, lets ban cars!<
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

"My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car." Syuni D'zpecyzczn<
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a thousand lives across 65 levels<i></i>

Washington dc has some rather hefty gun control laws in effect, hows their crime rate doing again? Traab "Love Machine" Fellhammer<
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And Almost Too Sexy To Live!<i></i>

Eddie Izzard said it well, "The NRA says 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'...Well, the gun helps ;P"<
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That being said, I'm a firm believer in the right to bear arms. <i></i>

Guns don't kill people. It's those little hard things.<
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Jetaki I said that with all good intentions and humor, dont take it as bait or an insult or anything like that.<
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Does it help to say that I also own some guns? One my dad smuggled into the country from S.America and am quite proud of, its a double barrel double trigger .22 pistol with 2 in barrels. Its so damned cool I just love the thing. My other is a shotgun. Also have a crossbow, a handgun style mini crossbow, several compound bows and a sweet 110lb re curve. I know you are all smart enough to get my general point here but refusing to acknowledge it is a bit frustrating. Willey<
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Sig to come...WILLEY

"Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 wacks<
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"It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional."
-A. Scalia

You don't think if everyone in the world suddenly got the ability to kill people with a thought, that the murder rate would rise? Part of the deterrent from murdering people is the difficulty and/or time and/or risk in doing so. Handguns help a ton in this regard. <
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Having the ability to instantly kill people by will changes people, the same way that power corrupts. Guns enable the homicidal tendencies in people that would otherwise probably remain suppressed.<
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It's a lot easier to shoot someone and drive away than it is to beat them with a lead pipe in
oad daylight and dispose of the body in front of a dozen witnesses. <i></i>

Quote:It's a lot easier to shoot someone and drive away than it is to beat them with a lead pipe in
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I think it's probably a safe bet that the majority of people who "Shoot someone then drive away" are using guns illegally and not registered to them, in which case, stiffer gun control laws won't really help much considering there are so many on the black market to begin with. <i></i>

Roughly 50% of illegal handguns on the streets of Toronto are stolen from registered users during
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Quote:"Guns come from two places, about half of them come from the United States and about half are stolen from legal gun owners in and around Toronto which is why I support a ban on handgun ownership," Miller said.<
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So yes, I don't believe gun control works either. They need to be banned altogether. And if you can't ban weapons in the US, ban the ammunition. <i></i>

Quote:So yes, I don't believe gun control works either. They need to be banned altogether. And if you can't ban weapons in the US, ban the ammunition. <
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In theory, I agree, but we have a little thing called the Second Ammendment, and I don't think it will ever be overturned. At least not in my lifetime. <i></i>

I would think not having another opportunity to get my face blown the fuck off is good enough reason not to own a gun. <i></i>

Quote:I hope all of you who have guns never piss off your 16 year old son and have him shoot you in the chest. Do you think in this case the 16 year old would have been able to kill his father if he didnt have a gun?<
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What a dumb quote. I am sure the same exact scenario has happened where a kid stabbed his parent to death instead of shot him. Should we get rid of all knives now? Don't be an idiot, please. Seriously. <i></i>

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I have owned a shotgun since I was 12 years old. Bought for me by my father. Yes, we hunted together, every weekend of the season. Before I could even hold it, I had to attend a 6 week hunters safety and firearm safety course. Even in my high school, we had guns OWNED BY THE SCHOOL, and a rifle range in the schools basement. We were required to take a marksmanship course 1 quarter of every school year. Yup, we fired guns in school. I qualified up to sharpshooter, just a few damn points short of expert (grrr). The moral, raise a child around guns and to respect guns, he or she won't misuse it.<
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My dad pissed me off tons as a kid. I never shot him, or even raised a loaded or unloaded weapon at him even once. Never even thought about it. <i></i>

Dont ban guns, just make the ammunition cost $5000 a bullet!<
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Right to bear arms = intact.<
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Chances of someone being pissed off enough to blow $5Gs and shoot you once? ...a lot less. <i></i>

Chris Rock said it better. <i></i>

The government is eroding my constitutional rights!!! Damn Bush!<
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P.S. Ban guns<
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huh? <i></i>

Stabbin' don't cost a damn thing.<
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Ain't worth killin a man unless you can look into his eyes as he dies. <i></i>

I've worked with fire arms pretty much my entire adult life. I don't own any fire arms but have several professional whacking sticks here and there. I almost never
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It would be truly wonderful if all the guns everywhere could just wink out of existence but that just ain't happening. How the hell do you put the genie back in the bottle?<
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Tragedies suck and happen with or without fire arms. Fiercely Apprehensive , 65 Dread Knaught<
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Quote:It would be truly wonderful if all the guns everywhere could just wink out of existence <
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What a horrible thought. I'd have to chase deer with a pointy stick. <i></i>

Hehehe. That made me chuckle Dero. Trying to get that vision out of my head now. <i></i>

You could take up archery. "I am not a ranger, but I have played <
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We'd all kill far more deer if you could slow a bullet down to 55 miles per hour and put headlights and a horn on it. They would jump infront of it. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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