I posted this on my blog and since we have been dancing around the topic in many other threads, lets
ing it out to a forum thrashing. I know that my beliefs are not like most of you, so please tell me where I am wrong with this:<
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Would someone please tell me exactly what would happen if Roe v Wade were to be overturned? Would abortions all of a sudden become illegal? Actually, no, they wouldn’t. Roe struck down any state’s laws making abortion illegal. So there are no states that have laws making abortion illegal.<
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Now I have an ongoing internal debate about abortion. I am a Libertarian (yes I am a member of the Texas Libertarian Party) I am a conservative Libertarian. I believe in the Constitution as it is written and I believe in the power of the democratic process. My wife is more pro-life then I am. I do have a problem with the killing of an unborn life as well as I have an issue with the government deciding who can and can not have children. I am more anti-Roe since it is bad law. <
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I agree with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg that Roe is “bad law� and even Justice Harry Blackmun said in the opinion of the court, "Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy.�<
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Let’s go back to the ruling, Justice Blackmun did say that a right to privacy was implied in the First, Fourth, Fith, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments. Lets look at the text of those.<
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First Amendment:<
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or a
idging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.<
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Fourth Amendment:<
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.<
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Fifth Amendment:<
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No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.<
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Ninth Amendment:<
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The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people<
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Fourteenth Amendment:<
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Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall a
idge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. <
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There are five sections to Amendment 14 but do not pertain to this topic.<
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I do not see in those Amendments how a person that is reading the intent of the Constitution finds “Right to Privacy�. If you want to be picky you could point out that in the 14th “Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of the law� would almost seem that the state could NOT allow an abortion without a court ruling.<
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Roe is not the ruling that created “Right to Privacy�. That is attributed to Griswold v Connecticut (1965) where the opinion of the court found “the Right to Privacy� in the “penum
as� of the Constitution (meaning between the lines, not written but implied). The 7-2 decision overturned a Connecticut law prohibiting the use of contraceptives. The dessenting opinion call the law silly but Constitutional.<
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Now, back to my point. What would happen if Roe were overturned? I think the issue would be handled the way it SHOULD be handled; by a VOTE of the people. Look at England, abortions are legal because the people voted them to be legal. Every now and again the issue is
ought up for another vote, but it is decided by the people. This is what I want to see happen; Roe overturned and allow the people to vote if abortions should or should not be legal. I will not support any government body declaring abortions legal or illegal without the vote of the people.<
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I am tired of the Pro-abortionists screaming that "if Roe is overturned our girls will be forced to a dirty back-alley abortion that puts their life in danger". Hell I guess by me posting this, I could never be a Supreme Court Justice. That is so sad that all qualifications for being a Supreme Court Justice go out the window based on how one answers the "is there a Right to Privacy in the US Constitution?"<
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It was my understanding that Roe v Wade is not a law, simply a precedent for future cases to be judged by.<
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So by "bad law" do they mean a bad judgement by the courts?<
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Anyways if people want to kill their children, they should be allowed to. As my parents always told me "I
ought you into this world, and I can take you out of it!"<
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I do believe it should remain illegal to kill other peoples children however. Shadow Jeris Elvenblade<
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70th Season Nemesis<
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Magelo Profile<
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I would have to agree with Dean when he said that Dems have allowed themselves to be labelled pro-abortion when they are, in fact, not pro-abortion. No Democrat wants to kill your unborn fetus. No Democrat willever force your daughter to get an abortion. I don't think any democrat would even say that abortion is a "good" thing. The fact is, we don't think the government should have a right to tell a woman what she can or cannot do. Nobody wants teenage girls to screw every guy they meet and abort hundreds of babies. We just recognize there are sometimes when a woman/family face a worse fate than aborting a pregnancy and the government should stay out of it. Rare. Safe. Legal. But I won't pretend to speak for all Dems.<
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And regarding the right to privacy, I would refer you to the Warren/Brandeis paper (I know, odd place to find the link). A extraordinary document that should be read by all who would presume to understand the issue. It was written in 1890 but could well have been written yesterday, its premise is so strong. <i></i>

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"Be glad there was a keyboard, monitor and miles of fiber between us when you typed that."

"State that opinion in my presence, you fucktard, and I'll show you how valid it is when I'm kicking the shit out of you."

It's not a law. As I remember it, it was included as part of the privacy clause and has been considered a right since then. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Quote:let's open this can of worms....<
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No, let's don't. Sorry nobody visits your blog attention whore boy. I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

Wow, what a fucking surprise. Bags is hating again.<
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Bagsworth, Hater #1, Lanys Multi-Community Forum <i></i>

I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

Blogs in general scream "attention whore". <i></i>

Agreed. <i></i>

Dems better do something to stop all the liberals from having abortions. They have already lost something like 30 million votes in the last few decades, if they keep killing their constituents like this their party won't have a chance of winning anything.<
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Roe V Wade was actually a republican consqiracy to gain power in the US. This will come to light in the year 2116 when the last possible democrat is aborted and Roe V Wade will become obsolete as no one will be having abortions anymore anyway.<
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democrats <i></i>

30 million babies aborted in the United States in 30 years? <
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Hmmm - 1 million a year. 20,000 a week. I call bullshit I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

Yep. They now need a new abortion sect entitled "Doesn't give a fuck".<
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Maybe green party can adopt this one in '08 and win by a landslide. <
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Quote:Hmmm - 1 million a year. 20,000 a week. I call bullshit <
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Read somewhere perhaps in the hometown newspaper that an average of 4000 abortions are performed every day in the United States so 20,000 a week would not be bullshit. Probably could find the exact figures if I wasn't too lazy to google it.<
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Actually 4000 may be low but it really is only an average of 80 abortions per state per day and you know that in some of the major cities there are a hell of a lot more than 80 abortions done every day. Of course I am sure that in some states there are less than 80 but I would bet it is pretty darn close to a million a year. <i></i>

Quote:30 million babies aborted in the United States in 30 years? <
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Actually after looking around the intraweb, people are estimating that it's closer to 40-46 million abortions since 1973. That's around 21 million would be voters that don't exist today. Considering the vast majority of them would be liberal democrats, 50% of the population voted in the presidential election of 2000, and Gore lost electoral votes in some states by a few thousand... the legalization of abortion is adversely affecting the democrats political power.<
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Sux to be them. <i></i>

Selras The Wise! <i></i>

Fuck it man, let the states decide. <i></i>

I live in a town of around 13,000 with a college with around 12,000 in town. We have 1-4 births everday, although we do have the best hospital in the area so there are some counties that come here to do it but still that's not where most of them come from. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Damn, I was hoping this would be about fishing. Oh well. <i></i>

Wtf makes you think it wasn't? <i></i>

Population of the United States as of July 2005 is 295,734,134<
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United States Birth Rate is 14.4 per 1000<
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295,734,134/1000 = 295,734.134 x 14.4 =<
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4,258,571 births a year.<
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Your trying to tell me that the abortion rate is 1/4 to 1/3 of the birth rate?!?<
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LMFAO<
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You need to quit consulting those horseshit anti-abortion web sites.<
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First of all, how the hell can they come up with that figure when medical records are private?<
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Try again, do no pass Go, do not collect $200<
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I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

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The 30-40 million figure doesn't come from anti-abortion websites, dumbass.<
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The numbers come from the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which is actually pro-choice in orientation.<
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You don't have to believe it, but that doesn't make it false. <
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Go do a search on the Alan Guttmacher Institute and read it for yourself. We've averaged around 1.3 million abortions per year in the US since 1973. For or against, that's the facts, sir.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

Whats his methodology?<
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how can he get confidential data?<
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33%+ is a bullshit number I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

To what do we owe Bagsworth's recent sandy vagina resurgence to? <i></i>

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The numbers are all based on census figures, and there's a long explanation of various statistics and where the Institute gets them on their website. <
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And again, it's a pro-choice organization. It's not a one issue organization (as in, it's not an org dedicated to pro-choice issues) but rather a full family planning organization.<
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It's also about as far from a doom and gloom anti-abortion site as you can get. It's a research institution. <
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And it's not a person, it's an institute. The institute was named after a now dead doctor. Once again, more information can be found on their website, after a simple Google search.<
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So fuck off-- your statement about "believing anti-abortion" sites is bullshit. Pure, classic, Bagsworth bullshit.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

Quote:Abortion is a common experience: At current rates, about one in three American women will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45. <
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Uhhhhhh<
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Yea OK Guttmacher I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

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I'm sorry the numbers surprise you. Many times I agree with your little mini-rants. Today, I'm sorry to find you so ignorant on this particular topic.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

this isnt a rant. I just find the numbers hard to believe. They are basing the numbers on guestimates that are taken as gospel I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

From the information I found its closer to 25% than it is to 33% but still.....<
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Quote:Results: A total of 861,789 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 1999, representing a 2.5% decrease from the 884,273 legal induced abortions reported by the same 48 reporting areas for 1998. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 256 in 1999, compared with 264 reported for 1998; the abortion rate for these 48 reporting areas was 17 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 1999, the same as in 1997 and 1998. <
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The entire study is linked below, if the CDC doesn't have it right I don't know who does/could.<
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Abortion Surveillance -- United States, 1999<
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wow, the hater getting hated on.<
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what a loser Lumine <
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Lanys T`Vyl

I may be, but the CDCs numbers are seriously flawed and that is from the Guttmacher Institute. The most current numbers from the Guttmacher Institute are from a telephone survey in 1990 and 1991 and mixed and matched with the CDCs numbers.<
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Can you really see Planned Parenthood responding with actual numbers? Hell, they fight tooth and nail in the courts not to release even anonymous information to government entities, such as the recent court fight in Kansas and their dildo Attorney General.<
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I would like to hear from some of the women that frequent this board. Maybe abortions are akin to the secret handshakes of femdom. Do you ladies actually believe that 1/3 of all women will have had an abortion by age 45? Do you actually believe that 1/4 of all pregnancies are ended by forced abortion? I have known "one" woman in my life that had an abortion, actually she had multiple ones - a true pig. I realize abortions are not something somebody would put on their resume, but jesus come on, a million a year?<
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If those numbers are correct, then some drastic needs to take place, but that is a disgrace. I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

I know 4 women (in person...5 or 6 if you count internet friends) that have had abortions. One of which really wasn't an abortion because the baby wasn't living...<
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Which, out of all the women I know, isn't a lot.<
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So, I don't know...I have to somewhat agree with Bags...the 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 number seems very, very high to me... <
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Quote:So, I don't know...I have to somewhat agree with Bags...the 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 number seems very, very high to me...<
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My guess is that the number is pushed up because there are a lot of people that have had multiple abortions.<
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If you have a group of 20 people, if one person has 2 abortions and another has three, that's a 25% rate. 5 abortions, 20 people.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

But even then...how many people would really have multiple abortions? (I know they're out there, but most wouldn't.) The people I know that had *one* wouldn't ever do it again (unless it was medically necessary). I still don't see that as a 25% or 33% thing...<
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(I do acknowledge that I could be wrong. It just seems very high...) <
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I know 2 people that have had 2 abortions each. Sure it's the minority, but it does happen. So she told me to come over and I took that trip <
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I didn’t know she had that G.I. Joe kung-fu grip <
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I wouldn't think having an abortion is something people would talk about all that openly, so unless asked directly how sure can you be? Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Magic in Fribur's World

If that question was directed at a comment likes mine, it's cause they are friends of mine. If not, there is no accurate number. I don't think clinics are required to give that info for the sole purpose of propaganda BS. That's my 1 Dem vice, Pro-Choice. I don't think we will ever have accurate numbers though. <i></i>

Yes, my comment was in reference to the anecdotal stories. I can see those things coming up with close friends, but not really with people that you aren't pretty close with. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

I would just like to point out that the instance("legalised abortion") was deliberatly planted as a social seed to eventualy germinate as licenced childbirth and by the looks of it, it is succeeding(sp?) in just that.<
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k thx drivethru. <i></i>

"30 million babies" doesn't really tell us much. How many of those were actually made past the point of detectable
ain activity? I guess it's satisfactory for "no abortion should ever happen" or "all abortions should be fine" folks, though. <i></i>

I fully support requiring a license to have children.<
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Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.

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Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.

The biggest enemy of freedom is a happy slave.

Perhaps there is a 'fudge factor' inserted to account for those who do not have 'recorded abortions'. <
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I am certain there are many who still go to 'back alley abortionists' or 'do it themselves' and get lucky enough that they don't have complications that require dealing with in a registered medical facility. <
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The cost of the procedure alone tells me that this must be true - the government doesn't pay for an abortion in this country just because it is 'legal'. <i></i>

The government doesn't pay for any medical procedures. <i></i>

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Arkayn, you are pro-choice?<
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haha-- you are like my evil twin, sir. You the ultra-right pro-choice buffoon, and me the ultra-left pro-life buffoon.<
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So uhh... cake or pie? <
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Magic in Fribur's World

Quote: The government doesn't pay for any medical procedures.<
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I meant that in general, not counting Medicare/Medicaid etc.<
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Quote:haha-- you are like my evil twin, sir. You the ultra-right pro-choice buffoon, and me the ultra-left pro-life buffoon.<
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Lol. It's Bizarro-Lanys. <i></i>

Quote:So uhh... cake or pie?<
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Pie for sure. <i></i>

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Well, until this moment I was always a pie guy, but I suddely feel an overwhelming urge to eat only cake.<
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Magic in Fribur's World

Quit gaying up the thread you two I used the white house bathroom yesterday. Its suprisingly not that fancy. Marble tile floor and counters, but the walls just have plain old home depot cheap wood paneling.- Varan Lorax<i></i>

<i></i>

It doesn't get much gayer than that. <
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Can of worms now officially closed.<
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Arkyn, nope, they don't - legal or not. In other countries (like Canada) though, the government often foots the bill for 'legal procedures' of this ilk. <
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And, to me, it makes sense to do so, in particular for abortions because a) you can get better control of and accounting for that procedure if you make it not only legal but paid for (in a safe place) and b) many women who want/need an abortion do not have insurance or any way to pay for a safe one in a good facility. <
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But, from my vantage point, the 'black and white' stance this whole issue is argued in in this country is what makes it such a difficult one too. Here it is only about ALL abortions, at all stages, for all reasons, under all conditions - or NO abortions at all. <
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Elsewhere it was
oken down into phases of pregnancy - what is acceptable or not during that phase, etc. - and though the general sense may be that abortion is legal, it is only LEGAL if it fits the legal time/condition profile (not ALL abortions are legal) and it is only legal if it goes through a sanctioned board for approval. Cuts down on the street abortions, and means that (to my knowledge) you don't find too many people butchering full term babies. <
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Here, I give up trying to even hope that there will ever be any 'sense' to this issue. Why is it that people rarely if ever (and never in media as far as I have seen) can't see that it might be ok to have abortions under certain circumstances in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy but there is no good reason to kill a full term viable baby on purpose imho. <
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Mid-term one might be authorized only under extremely dire circumstances (the mother's life is in extreme danger - but even then, why not just try to deliver the child and see if you can save it - unless it is because there are more than one child and you might kill the other(s) I suppose) or because the child would not survive to term anyway due to congenital issues that cannot be fixed in vitro. <
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So when people ask me if I am pro abortion or not, I cannot even answer in this country because I am both - pro-choice under the right circumstances in the first trimester and pretty well pro-life when it comes to any other phase of the pregnancy. I am 'side-less' therefore. The way this country is dealing with this issue just doesn't make sense to me. <i></i>

I've heard more then once that 1/3 of the population has been aborted since it was made legal, that's not new. What I find funny is pro-life advocates use this number often to promote their agenda, while pro-choice advocates shy away from it as much as possible. They should be proud that the service provided is so popular and doing so well. Abortionists have made somewhere around 15 trillion dollars over the last 30+ years and have saved the federal government billions in welfare. Why don't we see advertisements like this? <i></i>