I'll tell you why, because the majority of parents don't take the time to actually raise their kids and be a part of their lives.
They rely on the schools to do their parenting for them and provide little to no role model for their kids to look up to. With
todays families that actually have 2 parents, they are usually 2 income families and the parents don't want to be bothered with
taking the time to have a sit down family dinner every night, discuss the day and communicate with their kids.

Read: The parents are fucking lazy.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

my mom is a grade school principal and this is one of the biggest frustrations she has and hardest things to change. for too many people, school is nothing more than a free day care

Venen, a lot of times I believe a person is able to give an opinion based on what they observe but in the case of parenting I do not believe you can. Only parents can truly understand what parenting is like. Why?

Because only parents know what they feel when they see their offspring come into this world.
Because only parents know what it takes to raise a child 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Because only parents have the fears and wishes that come with being responsible for something so delicate and yet so resilient.

So my statement to you Venen, stay out of this one because you are completely unqualified for it.

Yay, you can throw out Venen's opinion because he doesn't have a kid! Everyone's safe now; go back to beating your kids, everyone!

Unfortunately, there are lot's of parents out there that believe spanking is wrong too... what are we going to do about them? Come on guys, let's think of a way to totally discredit them too, so that we can go back to what we enjoy so much!

Anyone who advocates totally removing spanking as a form of punishment in all cases, without regard for what the individual child responds best to, is an idiot and should be forbidden to procreate. The same applies to those who refuse to use any form of punishment other than spanking.

After reading the arguments that are against spanking in this thread, I am more than glad I got whipped when I did wrong.

Typical Fribur response. I would imagine anyone who has a child agrees with my statement to Venen. This isn't a topic you are qualified for unless you have a child.

Khan's a good parent; you would agree if you've ever watched him and his wife with their children. You'd also agree if you meet their children.

Really? I can think of forms of punishment that you would definately agree that should not be allowed in all cases. It can't be your contention that all forms of punishment should be allowed as you state here...



First, "typical Fribur response" is perfect! Now you can throw out anything I say on the subject without considering the implications!" Second, your statement to Venen is simply wrong. Parents are not the only people who have to take care of children "24/7" for example. Even if parents WERE the only category of people who have to exist under these circumstances, the statement is still false, since parents don't have to raise their kids 24 hours a day as you state. And third, your implication in that post as that if Venen had a child, then he would be ok with spanking, because then he would understand. Unfortunately as I stated, there are many parents out there that believe spanking should not be done, so my point still stands: how are you going to find a way to discredit those people, so that you can continue hitting your child?

Of course, my simple logic can be just thrown out, since I don't have a child of my own. Perfect!

Good parenting is the only true 24/7 job I can think of. Even when you are not physically with the child, it permeates every decision you make. Also, professions that take care of children do not have the same vested interest as a parent does for each child. That isn't meant as a slight, just a reality.

There is no "one" way to be raise good kids though, spanking, not spanking, these are just aspects of a greater whole. I've seen good parents on both sides of that fence, so neither precludes the other. Usually the desire to be a good parent will result in good kids.

Damn, I really need to use preview. Sorry for the last paragraph, hope it still makes sense.

I just don't understand the mentality that it's not ok to hit people, but yet we hit our children. Course, I don't understand why the govt. says I can't go over and pop my neighbor in the mouth, but it's cool for our govt. to kill people in other countries either.

They say we have to go to war because diplomacy failed.. well shit, how many times has diplomacy failed with some asshole out in public.. heh.

As for this "you have no kids so you can't say nothing" - you guys are seriously twisted in the head. There are a ton of parents out there that don't hit their kids - so they just suck as parents? I don't get how you think you know everything about being a parent just because you are one. Would you dismiss a child-psychologist because they had no children?

Hitting your kids is wrong. I'll just flat out say it. You can scream "YOU DON"T KNOW HOW IT IS!!!" from the rooftops - but that still does not make it right. Hitting your kid is the easy way out. Sure, they comply, - wouldn't you if somebody 3x bigger than you threatened you? Do you *really* think that is the best way to deal with problems? If you say yes, then why not let our teachers and/or the administration put hands on your child? You would be fucking IRATE if some teacher swatted your child or even hinted at it. But if you feel that is the best way to discipline your kid, why not? You expect teachers and schools and whoever else to find more diplomatic ways to handle your child, so why don't you?

oh, I know why, because hitting is just easier - you don't have to think about that.

I can't believe we are comparing slugging someone or a fist fight to an open handed swat to the butt.

It's extra padded just for such things, thx Jesus!

it's not about the pain - it's not about the physical act at all really (unless it does physical harm) It's about dominance and helplessness. It is about control and fear. There is a lot more going on psychologically when you hit somebody or even just threaten to hit somebody than their is physically.

Think domestic abuse. Does a man have to seriously injure a woman to classify it as abuse? What makes it ok to hit a disruptive child but not a disruptive woman? They are both "helpless". I would even go further to say that the woman is in a better position because she has options - least more than a child.

Parents know they influence their kids and no parent wants their kids to be in trouble for assault or to get into fights. So as parents, why would you show your kid that it is ok to hit people that do not "do what they are told".

And I'll argue that there is a difference between spanking your child as a parent and getting in a fist fight or striking someone out of anger. I don't spank my child in anger, I spank her to prevent her from hurting herself or others. I only spank her hard enough to get her attention, which is barely anything at all. My daughter does not fear me, as children generally do not run to someone they fear the moment they get home and give them big hugs and kisses. They also don't want people they fear to play with them or read them books. We aren't talking about beating the shit out of children, we are talking about spanking. Kids are smarter than most of you guys are giving them credit for.

I don't know about you, but every time I spank my daughter, we talk about why she was spanked. We tell her that we don't want to spank her, and we don't like to spank her, but we do it because we don't want her to take a faceplant off the couch on to a tile floor because she's jumping on furniture. That's not something that timeout fixes for us. We use timeout for other things, but I'll be damned if someone's going to tell me what I know works for my daughter. Spanking works for me.

You're right, I should have specified "commonly accepted forms of punishment".

If it's not about the pain, and all about the feelings spanking causes, then any form of punishment that a parent would use is abuse.

Parents are dominant over their children. That's kinda the point unless you're one of the hippy freaks that thinks parents should be their children's friends to the exclusion of actual parenting. As to helplessness, is a more mild punishment such as grounding or time out any different? All forms of punishment result in the child being forced to do something that he or she would normally be unwilling to do. The only real difference is the reduction in the duration of punishment in exchange for mild to moderate pain.

Granted, yanking a child up off of the floor without warning and spanking them without first explaining what is about to happen adds to a feeling of helplessness, however I am deliberately not referring to these people. That's just bad parenting in my opinion. However, a reasoned approach where the child is told exactly what is about to happen and why mitigates this to a reasonable level.

I understand exactly what you are saying Devyn, and I agree that there needs to be dominance in the relationship by the parent. The means to which dominance is granted is where I disagree.

For example, it would be easy to control children with food (clean your room or starve to death). As a society, we don't do this though because it is wrong. As a society we have generally agreed that violence is wrong. So why are we still hitting each other to establish dominance?

Kids get sent to their room without dinner all the time. It's one of those alternatives to spanking ya know?

Sarissa Candyangel

A normal spanking given by a rational person is hitting to the same extent that giving someone a high five or a pat on the back is hitting. It also is not considered violence except by those willing to redefine the term to include almost anything that involves unwanted physical contact (heck, and sometimes wanted physical contact).

As someone already mentioned, we as a society often resort to food control as a means of punishment. While I personally feel that denying someone a meal is abusive behavior, I believe that it is acceptable under specific circumstances (being forced to miss dinner is wrong, being forced to skip dessert or snacks is acceptable). I also feel that excessive food control punishments pave the way for the child to develop future food-related issues.

Off topic, I would not say that we as a society agree that violence is bad. For the most part we agree that unwarranted violence is bad, but those are two different things.

No, you misunderstood. Sending a kid to bed without dinner is one thing - Not letting them eat for 2 days - thats another.

You could easily control your children if you denied them food for a day or 2.

I don't misunderstand the sophomoric extreme cases, I'm ignoring them.

Sarissa Candyangel

And I say you misunderstand. Spanking is not beating the child within an inch of his or her life. It is one swat, maybe two.

For all of the arguements against spanking, they all seem to think that spanking a child means knocking their teeth out across the room then breaking their legs and tail bone. It doesn't. It means one swat, maybe two, open handed on the bottom.

So, why is it ok to liken spanking to knocking someone's teeth out and beating them senseless, but it isn't ok to liken sending the child to bed without supper to not feeding them for like 3 days? Why is one analogy here supported and not the other?

I was spanked as a kid, open handed, that's it. Nothing huge. It worked for me. Timeouts didn't, taking my stuff away didn't, and the sending me to bed without supper thing was a bigger joke than the previous two. Spanking, however, worked.

So, I am confused as to why all of the other stuff is ok, but spanking is not? I'm not talking about hitting your child hard enough to make their bottom turn into one gigantic bruise, or even leaving a mark at all.

Why is almost everything else ok, but not that? They are all different paths to the same goal. Some work, and some don't, depending on the kid in question. A cousin of mine was never spanked, because no one ever needed to. Spanking was never the first choice I ever saw thrown at any child when it came to discipline. It came as a "ok, nothing else has worked, so we go this route" choice.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

In my opinion, as a parent you can not arbitrarily rule out any form of reasonable punishment. Yes, spanking is a reasonable form of punishment. If you do then you may be removing the only tool that may work to get your child's attention. I used to think that "Time-Out" was stupid beyond belief. I later found out that an occasional use of a "Time-Out" works fine.

I was spanked as a child and I have threatened my children that I would spank them in certain situations if they continued doing what I did not want them to do. I have not yet had a reason to spank either of them. They do know that I am serious when I start talking about rewards and punishment. I can't give them too many either/or choices because they are very smart and will turn that around into a negotiating position. (Example: I want my son to eat his vegetables or he won't get dessert. He will say that he doesn't feel like dessert and not eat his vegetables. I had to change it to if you don't eat your vegetables you don't get dessert for a week for him to change his tune.)

Parents must retain some form of discipline in their punishment. No child should ever go through life and not be punished. If they do then the parents have failed.

As a parent I have very strict guidelines. I require that my children to do the following:
1) Do not lie
2) Play fair
3) Respect the people and things around you
4) Complete your school work
5) Do your chores (simple stuff like pick up your rooms, empty the dishwasher, help pick up your messes)
6) Mind your mother

As long as they do the above they can pretty much do whatever they want (within reason of course). They also know that if they do not do the above then they will be punished. I guess that I still have a bit of control over my fifth grader and second grader.

One or two swats on the bum?

I was OK with spanking, and that was from my perspective, which was 15-20 whips with a leather belt. And I'll be damned if they all landed on my ass. Kept going if I put my hands back.

Yeah, see, 20 shots on your back is something like what my other cousin's mom would do. I liken that to abuse simply because of how she did it. It was for any minor infraction. That's abuse in my opinion, simply because of how bad it can be. If you're leaving brusies on the kid's back and bottom so badly that they can't sit down for a day, that's abuse.

I also recall her saying on one occasion, in front of me "She is my daughter and I will put her in the hospital if I want to." I replied, at the age of twelve, "Maybe, but you won't get her out." My Aunt never made any sort of comment like that again, and that cousin would come over often afterwards because that was the safest place to be.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

If you love your kid and try to do what is right for them -every day- you are doing more than 90 percent of the other parents out there.

Spanking a kid occasionally or notspanking at all doesn't make any difference at all. You will end up with a great kid, in most cases, if you simply follow the above rule and stay consistent in you punishments. If you are comparing the extreme cases of knocking a kid around then you should be comparing it to the kid who is given everything and allowed to do anything. We aren't comparing apples to apples if you say any spanking is equal to any other spanking. The -I get my way -kids are horrible to be around.

I for one would welcome corporal punishment in the schools. The threat of it when I was in school sure made me weigh the pros and cons of acting up. Now all kids have to fear is listening to some drab monotone teacher like Fribur chat them up, and not even harshly. "If you are bad we will make you listen to someone who is going to describe in detail why it is bad!!!" or "Don't make me put you out in the hall!!!" Snore...

PS: there is a big difference between spanking your kids and hitting them.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Hilarious. Somehow your mind is going to have to reconcile the fact that I don't have any serious behavior problems in my classroom, ever. And I don't hit a single kid, or even threaten to, ever. OH MY HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

So they are all being good because they were already good students? I have 2 kids on parole in my class... I'm not talking about honor roll students here.

Probation? Or does your state put kids in prison and let them out for good behavior?

1 of each actually. One is on probation, the other got out of juvenile detention last summer.

you are thinking of parole jeka

Well, I was in the juvenile system for a few years. Juvenile Detention was generally like a holding cell, or short-term imprisonment. Around 90ish days was the most anyone spent there. Then there was bigger correctional facilities, where long-term people went, and they didn't leave until the age of 18. Felons and such were sent there. No parole. Then there's like a whole list of correctional programs. Probation being one of them. Maybe it's just a unique term to Utah. I'm over 18 now and not breaking ze law anymore. >.>

Because you are in some small town/city where the kids know that if they act up in school their parents will spank them when they get home. That's how it's possible.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Sorry Jeka i meant Firbur. Probation is just somebody checking up on you.. parole is when you get out early from prison.

Yeah, I got the terms mixed up. I should have said probation.



Bad assumptions for the win! woot.

If they are on probation, they have been acting up somewhere.

Yeah, around South Bend is such a bustling metropolis.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

I'm in a much smaller town than South Bend. That isn't the part of your statement that made huge false assumptions, however.

Really? So do a show of hands in your classroom and give us the real number of how many of your students have been spanked by their parents. Tell em it's for your masters or some shit and don't fudge the numbers. I am betting over 80-85% have been based on the size of your community.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

lol, honestly I just keep reading Khan's responses and thinking this guy is living PROOF(if we needed any) that you can be dumber than a brick and still get a job in IT.

I kneel before Xkhanx, DIRECTOR of of Information Technology, Burger King of Podunk Indiana.

Khan, it's not spanking that makes them behave, you dumbass. Most of them are NOT afraid of their parents, as you imply. Hell, most of them only have one parent at home, and that parent is working.

Let's pretend, though, that what you say is true. The other problem with your theory is that I would have to call their parents and inform them of bad behavior in order for the future spanking to occur. Since I rarely have to do that, their good behavior in MY classroom has jack and shit to do with whether or not their parents spank them.

I'm figuring this out though-- it doesn't matter what I say, you'll find a way to twist it into your messed up worldview. I can only hope your son comes out of it unscathed.

Majority != good

If you go not that far back in time you'd find that children were not so long ago raised very differently. In the 1800s the viewpoint was that children were like little adults. There are several first hand court accounts of factory work (for children) that were pretty horrific that I'm thinking of offhand. But the religious morality of the time viewed them as small adults sharing the same vices as adults.

Anyhoo, we can hit many points of history in many cultures where children were raised in a way that we wouldn't consider 'good' today. Or that we'd consider horrifically abusive (very much so of the many points in history where sexual abuse of children was permitted).

My only point here is that because many do a thing doesn't mean it's good. And unfortunately we can't look at the outcome and proclaim it 'good' either. Specifically there I'm thinking of research on children of war (children who lived in war zones for a length of time and were exposed to high stress and some horrible stuff. Most of 'em turn out okay...because children and people in general tend to be pretty resilient. So it's very possible to end up with a 'good' outcome (adult with a good life) despite bad childhoods/upbringing.

I think perhaps the important question is to ask what corporal punishment is supposed to accomplish, and to question why other forms of discipline aren't better. In my personal experience in talking to people etc. quite frankly most parents use corporal punishment as lazy parenting.

I'm not knocking it, or saying they're assholes. It's very hard for many parents who often work full time, have other things going on...and are raising kids to devote the time, patience and energy on reinforcing non-corporal punishment. And it requires discipline on the part of the parent to be absolutely consistent. It's a lot easier at the end of the day to deliver a spanking than it is to enforce time outs, or making them do specific chores as punishment. It's not that parents who spank don't care, it's simply a matter of picking their battles. They can devote that time to enforcing alternative methods, or choose a quicker and easier path.

And all parents choose 'quick and easy' at times, that's life. Any parent who yells, picked a quick and easy way. You don't HAVE to yell, but the policing and effort you'd put in to avoid it...not worth it probably. Any parent who's ever bribed a kid, picked a quick and easy way. Everyone does.

I think one of the most important things though is questioning why you use what punishments you do, and if you're ever picking them out of anger. Hitting a kid in anger (which probably most parents have done, I know mine did) is dangerous ground. Trying to reinforce unrealistic expectations...same thing.

There are parents who are disciplining their kids without hitting them....but they do it ALL the time. That's overcontrolling and abusive too. And there are parents who MAYBE spank their kid once a year, or perhaps under 5 times in their childhood, and rarely have to punish their child. Who's more successful there?

Anyhoo, there's enough very real abuse and neglect with children without treating this as a black and white issue. I don't think I would use corporal punishment if I had kids for a variety of reasons, but I'm not going to condemn everyone who does either.

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Yeah, and you know this for a fact? What grade do you have them? 6? 7? 8? You think that they haven't learned about consequences before they get to your so enlightened classroom? You have been there not even a full school year and now you know the entire story of the whole student body? Who's kidding who here?

Venen, with the utter bullshit that spews out of your mouth, it is no wonder you got passed around from family member to family member. Ever stop to think that it was because you were such a tremendous tool that they really could only stand your presence for a short period of time before shipping you off to the next unsuspecting family member?

Oh and to correct you, just because I can. I work for the largest privately owned home health care company in the State of Indiana, Head office in Indianapolis, the 13th Largest US city. Hardly Podunk. But hey, keep trying.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

the largest...

privately owned
*home* health care
company in the state of Indiana
and we happen to have our head office in Indianapolis.

Isn't that pretty much like saying you have the highest IQ score out of everyone with red hair, a pimple on their nose, and a height of 6'1? Whatever it takes to feel good about yourself, I guess.

I'm gonna need a little more convincing that you're so much smarter than joe truck driver. Go ahead and remind everyone again that you're the director of IT, your wife is National BCMA Coordinator, and your son is an honor roll student. Thanks for pointing this stuff out, you're obviously not insecure or defensive in the slightest.

I'm sure you'll come up with further evidence that you're not quite as stupid as you seem!

Maybe you can further elaborate on that "psyco-babble bullshit" too while you're at it, because, you know, expert child psychologists just make this stuff up as they go along.

Just like the other times you have tried to malign my personal life, your details about what you think my job is are completely wrong. You have the grade I begin teaching them wrong, the number of years I've taught wrong, and if you used your think skull even a little bit you would realize that yes, in just one year I get a bigger cross section of kids to compare than you ever will with just your own child to look at. Yes, apparently your child cowers in fear when you enter the room, and yes, that's apparently what passes for good behavior in your home. When are you going to admit that it can be done without the spanking?

Regarding your comment about me "knowing the entire story of the whole student body," of course I don't know everything about every kid. I do know most things about the 275 kids in my band program-- I make an effort to make sure I know. We (the teachers) also are given all kinds of statistics and back-stories on "troubled kids" or other borderline students so that we can work together to find strategies to help them succeed. However much I know, I also know that it's a shit-load more than you know about the kids in your son's school. And finally, I'm certainly in a much better position to judge the quality of parenting of the students in my own damn school than you could possibly be.

How is it that you think every kid in my class has perfect parents (who apparently are perfect because they spank their kids) just because we live in a small town? Here's a shocker for you: in my 6th grade band right now, with 60 kids in it, I have more kids with divorced parents than kids with both parents in the same home. It's not directly what we're speaking of here, but I have a feeling that also doesn't fit in with your apparent rose colored glasses about the perfection of rural America. We have students with problems here just like anyone else. Yet, you still haven't answered my basic question-- how is it that I can keep kids disciplined 8 hours a day without spanking them, if it is so essential to these kids as they claim? If you are stuck on me, and just hate me personally, how is it that EVERY TEACHER in my school, and in most schools can keep kids behaved without spanking them? The teacher down the hall from me has been teaching for 30 years-- he has put in more hours with kids than you have with your own son. He's never had to spank a kid to keep in control of the classroom. In your universe, that must really screw with your head. oh my how can that be?

You go ahead and keep on assuming what a horrible place it must be in my classroom. You go ahead and keep assuming that my classroom can't possibly be good because I'm not willing to abuse the kids within it. You're the one that sounds like an idiot when you do it. My students, the parents who had them, my administrators, and others who have contact with me know differently.

Like many teachers, I spend 12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week with these kids. Some of them spend more time with me than they do with their own parents. When I need to have quiet, I can't just tell one or two kids to be quiet like a parent can. I have to get 60 kids to be quiet at once, with instruments in their hands they are eager to play. Until you see how my classroom operates, you can't talk to me about discipline. You assume that because I don't threaten violence my classroom must be chaos, yet if you saw it in action you would see that my kids are taught discipline from the first day they enter. When I need their attention, I get it nearly instantly. They KNOW what their expectations are, and they know there are consequences when they do not follow them. When I got this job and entered the classroom for the first time, they had no respect for me; the process for creating this culture happened over time. It was not handed to me this way; I helped to create it. My kids behave because they know they are respected in their classroom. They know I will not belittle them publicly. They know that it requires hard work to push the band up to the standards we are trying to achieve. They are willing to spend hours of extra time on their own not because I threaten them with violence to get them to do so, but because they WANT to, based on the example I show them. Are they perfect? Hell no. But don't even pretend that I don't have experience in disciplining kids.


It's 20 minutes to 5 pm right now. I still have 7 kids here practicing their instruments. Two are in the office with me as I type this, but because of the discipline instilled in them by me they know they are not to look at the screen while I'm typing. You think this is impossible; come visit my classroom for a day or two and be amazed at what can be accomplished without ever threatening or carrying out a spanking on a single child.

Khan is a good dad who would do just about anything for his kids
Venen wasn't an unlovable kid
Fribur is probably a very good teacher (and I only say probably for lack of even indirect info...I'd bet cash he is) and at worst is one who's involved and cares about his students unlike many tenured slobs

Me...I think the topic is interesting without maligning people's character. When ppl are taking hits at someone's parenting just to get digs in, or their professions, or trying to push buttons about bad events in their life it's not just the value of the discussion that goes to shit, it's pretty fucking horrible to see. I'm really not trying to be the self appointed voice of reason here, but stop with the fucking potshots at people's lives, especially when it's done to try to get a zing in, and has no real bearing on the topic at hand.

We ALL have experience with kids, and we ALL lack a lot of experience too. Bring what experience you have to the discussion for the purpose of edification, but there's little need to play the 'you haven't done X therefore your opinion is valueless'. Or trying to attack the experience they have. But with that also recognize that one's experience isn't the end all be all, even experts have much to learn.

K, done playing Mary fucking Sunshine, I blame the painkillers.

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I would try to avoid it where I can, but I don't think anyone can deny Khan has been doing this since as long as the boards existed. I still remember the first time Khan bashed Fribur personally(and others) over a simple difference in views. Present an honest opinion with no hostility, and Khan fires back with a personal attack. I don't mind it, but if you're going to do it at least be able to accept what you dish out in the first place. I think Khan can take it, though.

It doesn't justify doing it on either side, but I think we'd need to look for the root of the problem in order to stop it.

That being said, I think Khan is probably just fine as a father. However, Khan is still a worthless piece of shit. How's that?

You obviously don't know Khan or his boy. Respect and fear are two different things. I've seen him with his son; he's a very good father. He's always been loud and obnoxious but that means nothing when it comes to his being a parent.

Personally, I don't consider parenting and teaching even close to the same thing. Until you see the fragility of your own child and realize you are responsible for their being and that every decision you make is affecting their lives you will have a hard time understanding where the parents are coming from. Keeping a class quiet 8 times for 45 minutes at a time is not remotely similar to the parenting acts and decisions you have to make.

I can't say I agree with that, if there's anything similar to parenting, it's the responsibility placed on teachers. The influence that a teacher can have on a student can be comparable to that of a parent. You need only consider the scenario where both parents work shift work versus their grade school teacher who spends a solid eight hours with them every day.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I'll grant that the words "cower" in the previous post and "dumbass" in the post before were more than what was necessary. I continue to protest the idea that I (or other teachers) wouldn't know what I'm talking about when dealing with kids. I think the hardest situations for me in terms of discipline are when I have kids who's parents are NOT disciplining them at home, but for whom I have to figure out a way to get them to behave in class.

It looks like Argrax snuck in a post that echoes what I was going to say about teaching-- for many students (obviously not all) I see them, deal with them, and help them make decisions for longer than their parents do. For students with parents in night jobs (somewhat common here since a lot of the population in this town is employed by a few local 24 hour a day factories), it's even more true. Many of them see me and deal with me far more than they do their parents. For students with split custody divorce arrangements, their teacher is often the most stable adult influence in their life.

Seriously Fribur, why go to all these lengths to try and prove me wrong. Didn't you just get the full time teaching job there this past summer? That's what you said right here on these boards.

Grades? I believe I put a '?' after each grade because I didn't know what grades you taught. That '?' implies I didn't know.

I still stand behind my belief that you don't know nearly as much as you may think you know about the 275 kids home lives. And I still challenge you to do an impromptu survey.

I coach football every year. I have 35 kids for 3hrs, 3 nights a week and 3hrs every Sunday for games. I also coach basketball so include another 12 kids for roughly the same amount of time every week. My experience into what works and doesn't work with kids isn't quite as narrow as you would like to think, my friend. In your mind is having a kid do push ups, up-downs or laps for acting up is also wrong? That is a form of physical abuse is it not? Should that also be out-lawed? I mean honestly, having to do up-downs, gassers or suicides until you puke puts enough fear into all the kids so they don't misbehave and isn't that the premise of your argument against spanking, fear?



And where/how did you come up with my assumptions? Not from anything I said. Turning my sarcasm around a bit don't you think? As always, your condescending remarks and inflated insinuations mean and prove pretty much nothing.

I ask you, "What part of my saying "As a parent you need to decide what works in your own particular situation. No one thing is the end all be all solution." didn't you understand". You and venen are the ones making the big assumptions here about how I raised my kids. In their lives I haven't spanked either one of them more than 5 times. My daughter only 3 and I can remember every single time I did it. But I bet you $100 they couldn't tell you about more than 1 or 2. Tossing out bullshit lines like my kids "Cower" when I walk into a room is just plain wrong. We teach respect and manners in my house, not fear. And thinking that can't be accomplished solely because they were swatted a few times growing up is also wrong.

Venen, I won't even take your bait. Well, one small question. Do you even have a job Venen?

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

No, it's not; your memory is just failing you in your old age . This is my second year teaching.



So you know, I teach 5-12th grade.



No, that's not physical violence, although if you really do it "until they puke" purely to punish them, then I would have a problem with that.



Yes; I already took back the "cower" statement. I was just trying to goad you, and in the spirit of Tarot's post I took it back.

If you spank so rarely, then why do it at all? It's pretty clear if you spank that rarely that your kids would still be the same great kids today even if you didn't spank at all.

Because like I said. Every kid and every situation is different. As a parent you have to make decisions as to what punishment at that particular time is the most effective. For instance, my "perfect" son, as venen says, stole 2 packs of gum from a Speedway when he was 7. At that time I figured the best way was to pretty much scare the shit out of him. So I called the cop down the street and explained the situation to him and he agreed to meet us at the speedway. We went to the store and I had my son give the gum back to the store manager and while he was standing there apologizing to the store manager for stealing the cop came in and walked up to the manager and asked if he had caught the thief that stole the gum. You can guess what happened next. Lets just say in the next 5 min while Ron was talking to him, my son relieved himself right there on the store floor.

Another example. My 5yr old daughter would not stop hitting her brother. Mainly we think because he could not retaliate back. We tried the usual time out, stern talking to etc. and nothing worked so the next time she did it, I made her go out to the garage with me and we proceeded to make a paddle out of a piece of 3/8' thick board I had laying around. I had her sand it with a block, stain it and polyurethane it. The whole time telling her it was not acceptable to hit her brother. Afterward we went inside and had dinner. When dinner was over I went out and got the dried paddle and walked back in and told her that since her brother was not allowed to hit her back each time she hit him that I would be taking his place. Ihad her stand up and bend over. She got 2 swats with the paddle and afterward I told her that every time she hit her brother the number would increase. Guess what, she stopped hitting her brother.

Like I said, no one thing works. You have to figure out exactly what will work for yourself. And trust me, it isn't easy.

And yes, I blame my failing memory on old age and the '80s

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

We both agree that every child is different, and that different things will have to be done with different kinds of kids. We also (I hope) both agree that there are some punishments that should never ever be done, no matter who the kid is (for example let's say... deliberately electrocuting your child repeatedly). Someone far away from that extreme example is a line we draw between what is acceptable and what is not in terms of the methods you choose from to discipline your child. I simply put spanking on the other side of the line than you do.

Well of course. What I don't appreciate is being lumped in with the morons who hit and abuse their kids just because I have spanked mine. Which is pretty much what you and venen so zealously did. I obviously draw my line a bit further south than you do, that is agreed, but doing what I do is not by any means abusive and never out of anger.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Update

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/12/baby.grace/index.html

A few pictures show the child, the mother and the boyfriend.

What hell that little girl had to go through. I couldn't imagine what her life was like.


Oh, btw, up/downs and gassers suck.

TRhe death of this child really touched my wife and I as we have children. However Galveston really isn't that far away either . The death of any child is rediculously stupid as they are our future and our successors to anything we leave behind. Teach not the child to abuse, but discpline the child to understand right and wrong.

Ihnz

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I don't have children. I would love to one day, as most who don't have children also feel. And while I (at this point in time) don't know the most effective way of how to discipline a child... I do know many situations that don't work. And the hope is that by doing things that I know will definitely not work, that I will eventually find some solutions that do work.

Working in retail for as long as I have, I have encountered literally hundreds of thousands of families in the public eye. And unfortunately, there is a lot of parents that simply have no clue how to handle their children in public. Maybe things are different behind closed doors, where no one can question their methods... but I will say, many in public are very apathetic towards their children, and let them do whatever they feel suits their needs. And while some of these actions are immature and irresponsible, some of them can cause potentially serious injuries to themselves and others. And of course, those apathetic parents are uninterested in these actions.

A shame, really. I don't know the right answers, only many of the wrong ones.

(only cause it is the holidays, no meaning for this emoticon for this thread)

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