I acknowledged the personal accountability issue later on in another response. I also pointed out that these were things that I had experienced or seen.

I would suggest some more in depth thought than the simple rejection of an entire post. How many people have you seen effected negatively by the things I mentioned who played EQ or WoW? Now compare that to people who didn't play. I would think the effects are much more noticable and happened or happen more often in those that game online.

You can say that it all comes down to personal accountability, you can say it doesn't exist, but the indicators are there.

Granted, you have your extremes. You have your casual gamer that never got into things enough to have it or let it effect their life. You have people like Itzlegend who were ridiculously dedicated to achieving goals, but when those goals were achieved, logged out almost immedately. Itz was almost never around when we weren't raiding. Then you have Sola who has probably spent in excess of 3 of the last 8 years logged into EQ or WoW. He was nearing or over 2 when we all quit EQ. I know at a minimum, Sola's health was negatively effected.

You have your good cases and your bad cases as in all things. I've seen more bad come out of it than good. This may not be fact, it's just an observation on my part. OPINION.

I have given simple, fairly non-inflammatory examples of kinds of players who were effected negatively. (IN MY OPINION) I will not go further in depth on some of the issues as I feel people deserve the little bit of privacy they have.

No one has ever been motivated to self-improvement by an endless parade of blame being thrust upon them. Blame is a tool used to damage others. Often people do irrational things because of emotional issues...and causing more negative emotions by throwing blame around only drives them to seek more of the same.

People change because they accept responsibility for their choices, by their own will...when they realize they have the power to change. When they accept the positive, when they forgive, when they realize that no one is beyond redemption, not even them.

As with many hobbies, there is a healthy and an unhealthy level of participation.

What I don't agree with is you specifically calling out online gaming as the source. Substitute any popular hobby there and you are describing a fairly common human weakness, addiction.

Perhaps you could elaborate? Which hobbies are you speaking of?

It's a game instead of booze and drugs, people that let things get in the way of themselves do it regardless of what they let get in the way, people in this instance merely use games.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

So if we hadn't been gaming, we would have been drunks and druggies? That seems like a pretty blanket statement to me.

Many people did all three!

Anything at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby

For the sake of arguement, try table-top gaming. It's something I've never done, so I certainly can't speak for those that do participate, but, don't you think that the individuals who take a hobby like that to it's extreme would be likely to experience the same or similar cons?

You're correct on the 'at a minimum' part. My brother's health issues are more the result of genetics...but sitting and playing a video game for hours and hours on end certainly doesn't help. You may be rather glad to know that these days he doesn't 'sit' online 24/7 and actually leads a relatively active life while still being able to play WoW. Thats because he, like lots of other people, learned how to balance his priorities out and understands that its only a game.

You may speak from personal experiences Xantheus, and other may agree with you or share similar experiences...but that still doesn't make them 'THE' Pros and Cons of Online Gaming. Because as Reef mentioned, you could throw 4 out of 5 of those Cons into the mix with any hobby...be it Gaming (Tabletop, Console, Online), Baseball Card Collecting, Drug usage, Drinking, Anime, etc...and get the same results.

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I think the point being made was that if a person let the game get out of control, then that same person might let other things or activities get out of control as well.

Right- I think Khameir's issue is whether MMOGs are what causes this negative behavior or not.

People who are already introverts/have poor social skills, possibly undisciplined in terms of time management, irresponsible, etc may indeed have those negative traits made worse when playing a game such as EQ or even WoW. The thing of it is though, is that it isn't the game that causes those negative habits. They were there to begin with (not necessarily ever seeing the light of day, but definitely the capacity to do those things is there).

That's not to say however that the game doesn't magnify those tendencies. It's certainly a factor in the results.

Someone used the word addiction, which is a good analogy. For instance, say you have someone that shows up to work late occasionally, then starts taking drugs, and afterward shows up to work late almost constantly. Do the drugs create that result? Not directly, but it is a definite factor. Would their behavior be different without the drugs? To an extent, yes.

But ultimately we're the ones that make the decisions in our lives, so the fault lies with the person looking back at us in the mirror.

I don't think there's any might about it. This boils down entirely to personal responibility, if they're personal irresponsible there's no reason to think they won't let that happen with anything else that goes on in their lives. People act in patterns, and until they make the change in their pattern, there's no real reason to expect otherwise.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

The other half of the point is if YOU have a problem controlling your playtime, and YOU let your gaming get in the way of your personal life, your professional life and your health, then YOU are the one with the problem. Don't bring up issues YOU had with online gaming and present then as some sort of inherently evil quality.

Scapegoating is bad for business and it makes you sound like Joe Lieberman.

Cuchulainn SC2K is on the right track with what I'm talking about.

If you were to tell me "Hey Jared, my wife left me because I play too many video games." My response would be something along the lines of "Was it just the video games, was the amount of time you spent playing video games overshadowing other aspects of your life (IE your wife and or other family members, work, responsibilities at home, etc), or were there other problems you and your wife were having that you didn't acknowledge because you were too busy with something else?" As with all forms of addiction, it most certainly be one of the many causes that lead to the end effect...but I'm willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 video games weren't the sole cause in the above example.

I play a lot of video games, as playing video games is among my many hobbies. And being that I do play WoW, a game which at times does demand more from me then my other games (or other hobbies in general) do, I still have to moderate exactly how much I play. Sure, I'm currently unemployed and will be going back to school within the next year...so in theory I have LOADS of time to be logged into WoW. However, not only am I a husband I'm also a father. So while I may be logged into WoW for a few hours every day a good portion of that time I'm actually AFK taking care of our daughter.

My point is that it all comes down to the individual. While say you Xan choose to spend so much time in game that it effected you negatively in the end, the same didn't (and doesn't) apply to everyone. Games that end up being timesinks (like MMOs) are horrible for people with addictive personalities.

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I find it funny that Clancy made this the 666th topic in this forum...interesting.

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If I were unemployed I would be doing everything in power to get employed. I sure as hell wouldn't be posting on boards or playing WoW. Get a 3rd shift job to get some cash flow going and then work your butt off during the day at school or looking for a better job. Instead of telling Xan his topic, which btw is for discussion, isn't really applicable to you maybe you need to look in the mirror and think "Why am I umemployed? What am I doing to better my daughter's life? What have I done today to contribute to society?"

Actually, I happen to do regular job searches via online, newspapers, etc every day for work. Sadly, in the area that I live in my field isn't necessarily in high demand...hence as to why I'm going to go back to school, to get into a different (and better paying) field. I simply mentioned that I 'could' spend all my time playing video games rather then taking care of my child. What am I doing to better her life, going back to school so I can get a better job.

I don't need anyone to throw the "Why am I unemployed?" question in my general direction simply because I disagree with Xan's 'THE' Pros and Cons of Online Gaming argument. As I stated already, those pros and cons may be true to Xan and others, but it is not the norm NOR did he clarify in his original post that those examples were in his own experiences...only when others disagreed with them did he clarify that they were examples from his personal experiences.

Do you seriously want to be the guy who complains about the arguement rather then instead of contributing to it whilst simultaneously not reading a fucking word I posted after I said I was unemployed?

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Swing that judgmental pendulum back the other direction...what, exactly, have you done today to contribute to society? I'm fairly certain that 'trying' to point out how I should better spend my time at home while not working isn't going to garner you a humanitarian award. And to answer your rather smart ass question, my daughter and I have been working on her numbers and her ABCs today. She can count to 20 and sing the entire Alphabet song without assistance...pretty damn good for a 3 year old. My contribution to society today comes in the form of helping prepare her for school, rather then having to rely solely on the teachers to do it for me. Where does that rank on your 'importance' and 'time management' scale?

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I actually only experienced really two of the original cons, poor performance at work and weight gain. If you had honestly read and understood my original post, you could see that. I pointed out in the other cons that:



I am actually an extrovert. Am I missing where I said I avoided all real life contact? I actually made sure I set aside at least one night a week to go out and socialize. This was an observed behavior, not a personally experienced one.



Again, I fail to see where I said I experienced this one. Personally, as a parent, I think any amount of online gaming takes away too much from your children, but again, that's my opinion.



I never did this. I am actually very close in real life to what I always was in game. I can be an asshole at times, but I am loyal to a fault to my friends. The only really role-playingish thing I did was to marry Shut Shut in game and that had nothing to do with being mean or nice to anyone. Once again, I never mention that it is something I experienced, only an observed behavior.

It's good that you're caring for your daughter. Congratulations. Has she never had to suffer in any way due to your online gaming? If you say no, you're either full of shit or you're one of the minority. I'm leaning towards the former.

Wow, you're a fucking moron. You have some serious issues with online gaming, that's fine. But to tell a man that his child is suffering because he chooses to game as a hobby. That's crossing the line, imo.

You weren't even talking to me and I'm still gonna give you a hearty fuck you for that.

The reverend Xantheus Diabolus has spoken.

Trakanon wept (Xantheus 11:35).

The faggotry on all sides is overwhelming in this thread.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Wasn't my question just that? If people never play while their child is awake, they're doing the right thing. If people who do play when their child is awake drop everything and walk away the second their child needs them, they're doing the right thing. If people say "Hang on just one minute" to a child that wants their parent, they're fucking up. If Khameir can balance the two and look himself in the mirror and know that he always does the right thing for his child when it comes to this, then I salute him.

Your hardon for me is astounding.

Define the word: Suffer

I don't have serious issues with online gaming, I believe it has it's place. You'll notice I said that I don't regret my time I spent playing. I just think that there are some negative aspects which can be associated (NOTE: Not directly linked, just associated for you "personal responsibility" folks) with online gaming.

I saw what I thought would be a thought provoking idea which would incite some intelligent conversation and debate on this board. I thought about the idea for a bit and then posted what had come to mind. It wasn't meant as an attack on anyone, just a discussion starter. Some people have responded very positively, some with what seems to me as denial, projection, and rationalization. Some have used this as a forum for some apparently much needed venting. Some have simply said that obviously these things only happened to me due to my lack of taking personal responsibility for my actions. Whatever, it's discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Gaming did not effect me negatively in the end. I see more negative aspects for everyone involved than I do positive ones when I look back, but it provided something to pass the time and a needed escape at times that I appreciate. Like I said before, I didn't personally experience each one of the cons I mentioned, I only observed most of them. If we just go off of what I personally experienced, we come out with three positives and two negatives. That doesn't sound to me like a negative overall. I definitely cherish the friendships like I said and I also mentioned that I wouldn't take the time I spent back.

I personally would not play games online now that I have a young child. That, once again, is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to raise their children however they see fit. Everyone is also entitled to have opinions about actions they don't feel are appropriate for a parent. I am sure I do things that people don't agree with, but it's my child. As a parent, if someone expressed an idea they didn't agree with, I may give it some thought and agree, I may just disagree. That is my right as an adult, just as it is every other parents on this board.

As to your post made while I was making this one: Any time a child has to wait on a parent that is providing themselves with entertainment, that to me is suffering as it applies to this case. I'm not talking about all out abuse or neglect. It could be TV, it could be a book, whatever, but when my daughter needs me, I drop everything and take care of her.

So, regardless of whether MMOGs directly or indirectly lead to bad habits in the players, the question remains...

Knowing what you know now, would you do it differently?

Me personally, I wouldn't have started this habit. It was too big a diversion from real life for me. And yes, I decided to make it so. EQ had a way of sucking you in...

I don't see how opinion has anything to do with it. This is a pretty cut and dry subject. People choose to do what they choose to do, there's no if ands or buts about it. Gaming(online or otherwise) doesn't make you do a damn thing, and I'll say it point blank, you're full of shit if you try and say it does. If people fuck up their priorities that's their own bag and has no blame for anyone or anything other than themselves, and it's their responsibility to fix it.

Scapegoating need not apply.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Dropping everything to take care of my daughter isn't really that hard and I find it sickening that people have gone so far as to cause harm or even death to their children in the name of their gaming addiction (Note: Korean couple who left their infant child unattended at home to go to a cyber cafe to play WoW). I can't count the amount of money in repair bills I've spent (due to dying because I went afk somewhere I probably shouldn't have) or the number of times I've had to leave groups because I had to walk away from the computer in order to do something that involved attending her needs in some way shape or form.

Can I say with 100% honesty that I've followed such a strict code of Parental conduct at all times and that theres maybe a handful of times when I've told her "In a minute"? No, I can't say that I've been 100% steadfast on that conduct and there are a handful of times where I've been doing something (while playing a game) that resulted in not immediately addressing her call for daddy. However the very few times thats happened normally consist of things that aren't immediately important (like changing the DVD...or getting my DS off the charger for her to play...or picking up a crayon she dropped on the ground when shes sitting right next to the box of crayons) or I've been fortunate enough for her mother to be home to attend to her as well. And in retrospect, even those few times I probably should have 'dropped the controller' so to speak to see to her. Everyone needs lessons to learn, and that has been one of mine.

Sadly, as I mentioned and as is true with any other hobby or addiction, there are those cases where the parents don't attend to their child immediately or don't attend to them at all. You just have to put it in your mind that you aren't going to be one of 'those people' and actually put those words into action.

I will say congratulations on being a father Xan, I was surprised to take it up as easily as I did. Quite possibly one of the best things to ever happen to me.

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It's a repeated situation now, with WoW. WoW is just another EQ. However, I have many other things to focus my time on instead. Now, do I tell my daughter to hang on a sec when I'm in the middle of studying, yes -- absolutely. Is it probably just as bad as if I were sitting in an instance in a dungeon? Maybe...

These things can take on many different facets... it's a cut and dry subject to talk of it ideally, but I mean that's just part of being a responsible adult, and a parent.

maybe not at the same time in my life, but i think if i had an opportunity to spend the bulk of my time playing a game that was enjoyable to me today with the same results i had back then, i probably would.

now if i had to do it today in the life i currently have, probably not. about once a year i fire up a threebox for a few weeks, but the fun usually goes away pretty quickly

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Let me see, I went to my job that takes money out for government, state and local taxes. It also takes out money for my contributions to charities. In addition, I signed up for a local charity race that takes place on Thanksgiving. That's enough for me.

Parenting is easily the most fulfilling experience ever.

Heh, I wrote this for a Lanys flame thread back in 2002. It probably sucks but here you go.

=========

Taliesn was a short man
Fallen Legacy he ran
A family they claimed to be
And raiding they began

Alas there was another guild
Visions was its name
When they met for AoW
Training was the game

Among its ranks was Rorror
A master engineer
Into the hearts of FL
His trains did strike fear

One day upon the arena floor
While killing the Avatar of War
Rorror trained hap-hazardly
Wiping out Fallen Legacy

Taliesn was mad as hell
And unto the forums he did yell:
"Visions must stop its tyrrany,
For tolerate it no longer will we"

That became their battlecry
And the Visions' membership began to die
But Taliesn saw his guild was small
Alone they could not make Vex Thal

In the dark he struck a deal
Which later on they would reveal
They would merge into one
Then much stronger they'd become

A list of names they did write down
Only the best would stick around
They'd cut dead weight and gone would be
Their former friends and family

Back to the forum he did run
Announcing peace had finally come
Visions would part and parcel be
Part of Fallen Legacy

Enemies they would take in
Trainers KSrs all the same to them
And to this guild he begat the name
Entropy, to much acclaim

Those not happy with this news
Decided to make known their views
Finding Taliesn's actions mean
They ressurected Seven Dreams

Now their guild farms in Ssra
For keys to the Emperor
The prophecy had proven true
Fallen Legacy had fallen too.

I remember that.

it's literally as funny as a poem about a specific group of people playing eq could be

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Yeah. If some random asshole read it, he'd be like "huh?"

I guess it's alright for nostalgic purposes, though it's not very witty / clever. Shrug.

Never claimed it was. It wasn't a fucking english composition contest.

I thought it was pretty clever. /shrug

Like I needed a game to be an asshole... pfft.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

When I look back at my EQ days I just remember I was obsessed with helping people. Get their epics, tank for them, go on raids where I didn't necessarily "need" anything. I felt like it was boosting my reputation each time. I believed strongly in the ideals of Need Before Greed, and looked down on anyone who didn't adhere to the raid calendar.

Now in my WoW days, I can't be bothered to help out people screaming LFM for an hour for a 5-man quest somewhere. Talk shit in BG chat constantly. And I'll be damned if someone doesn't hear about some scrub rogue who can't put down as much DPS as me won x item over me.

I stopped reading after page 1, so sorry if the topic has drifted away from what I'm about to say. Being addicted to a game seems a whole lot more attractive to me right now than being chained to law school, going 150k+ into debt only to become some partner's 80-hour-a-week-slave for the next 10 years only to become a partner, wasting my life writing ludicrous briefs and brown nosing corporate clients until I die at 45 of cardiac arrest. I guess what I'm saying here is that all you can ever really do in this life is exchange one master for another.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

While there is a very cynical part of me that could have written that exact sentence myself, I do disagree with you. I do think it's possible to live master free, but that very few people are willing to leave the comfort of "domestication" to do it.

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I was as addicted to Everquest as many of you guys were. There were many days were my life basically consisted of sleep, work, eating, bathing, and Everquest. That was it- no exercise, no reading, no going out with friends, nothing. I did have a small social life; however, I always used the excuse that I partied soooo much in college that I did enough for the rest of my life, so I can just zone out and chill at home playing a game.

When I got promoted at work, I found my time was being geared more towards work than Everquest. No longer was I putting in countless hours playing; instead, I was putting in countless hours at work. Go go salary! Especially when I was the overnight manager for 18 months, that really took a toll on the ability to attend raids and progress in game and be current. I am pretty sure I was one of the top 5/10 magicians on Lanys during my hardcore playing days... but I remembered a day when (after about a year or so of the manager overnight position) I checked eqrankings and found I was like around 25 or so. No longer was I considered "upper echelon" as far as gear and AA's and level was; now, I was just considered "above average".

I missed DoN and DoDH progression big time, missed all the groups to get the DoDH spells. That was the killer for me, the frustration of trying to get people to do DoDH and no one wanted to because they had already done all of their groups... and they felt the groups were too hard/challenging to want to do them again. Instead, they wanted to do Creator mission #3542 for easy AA, or Nest mission #2598. My final day was when I had finally got a group together to finally finish the last mission for the Raging Servant spell... and half the group (including myself) died on the way to the instance. I remember leaving my corpse in Illsalin (or whatever zone that was) and just logging off in disgust and removing Everquest from my hard drive and cancelling the account.

That lasted a good year, but I am back in game. I am well behind everything; however, I am in a guild that is very laid back and casual and "family orientated" as far as the people behind the character (i.e. majority of them are adults with jobs, houses, children, etc). I went on an AMV raid in Anguish where a group died, and the reason was the cleric was putting his daughter to sleep ... so that says a lot about the guild. But they are a great group of people, and I am having fun in the game being casual and relaxed. To this day, I still find Everquest to be an extremely fun game, with a lot of different things to do other than the basic XP grind.

And the bottom line is... anything is good in moderation. It is when you do not handle the item in question in moderation... that is when problems occur.

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BTW in no way, shape, or form am I bashing a cleric who puts his daughter to sleep on a raid. It just says a lot about the priorities for many of the players, which is a great thing- family and real life first, Everquest second. And that is what I really like about the guild, is that they are very relaxed and a great bunch of people to associate with. Sure, we are not high end or at the end game... but so what? They have fun, and they play with a smile on their faces and an eye on their kids. To me, that is great about life! There is no pressure in EQ, they log in and we chat and group and have fun and raid a couple days a week, and we smile and enjoy ourselves in the game. That is the most important thing, and what I like about them most.

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Wait....Cicely was addicted to Everquest?

I missed this thread last month.

Long ago, when I [first] decided I'd had enough, I threw up a long post about my decision and why I made it. There are definitely ups and downs, just as in any other way you might decide to spend your time.

I think Xan's summary is spot on. Not all of those are applicable to everyone, but across the people I know, I can definitely say I've seen all of these.

This could fall under Friendships and Personal Development -- or as a flip side to Lack of a True Social Life, but it's worth adding that introverted people have a comparatively safe environment to expand their comfort zone, should they choose to carry it offline.

I can't fault EQ for anything negative that happened in my life. If anything, it was a forum for a lot of positive things. The main one is that during the first three years that Rugen and I were together, about 18 months of that spent living 2000 miles apart. We had known each other for about a year, and had been dating for about 6 months, when he had to move cross-country. Without EQ, I'm not sure that our relationship would have lasted through those early years. Playing EQ was a way for us to do something together, and that made the difficulties of maintaining the relationship long-distance much easier to deal with.

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Hope is the new black.

I think the demographic of those in 'advanced' guilds would surprise you.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark