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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:55 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:34 AM
Posts: 339
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/art...98,00.html<
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Quote:<
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President Bush has admitted for the first time that his decision to go to war in Iraq was based on faulty intelligence. But he still said that the decision to remove Saddam Hussein had been "the right one".<
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Mr Bush said that tomorrow's parliamentary elections in Iraq are a watershed moment that will inspire democracy across the Middle East.<
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But with public opinion still running against his mission, the President still was left defending his decision to go to war nearly three years ago.<
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"It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong. As president I am responsible for the decision to go into Iraq," he told a foreign policy forum on the eve of elections to establish Iraq’s first permanent, democratically elected government.<
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"And I’m also responsible for fixing what went wrong by reforming our intelligence capabilities. And we’re doing just that."<
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"We are in Iraq today because our goal has always been more than the removal of
utal dictator," he said.<
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"It is to leave a free and democratic Iraq in his place.<
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"My decision to remove Saddam Hussein was the right decision. Saddam was a threat and the American people and the world is better off because he is no longer in power," the President told the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars.<
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LOLOLZOLOLZ IRL?<
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Its like a fuckin joke I swear. How many more years till the next monkey gets elected? <
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:56 PM 
What does this button do?
What does this button do?

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They are all monkeys, they always have been and always will be. Its a requirement for the job. Willey<i></i>

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:58 PM 
Train Right Side!
Train Right Side!

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It's funny, when I saw that the only view and only response to this thread was something Willey said, I knew he would say something absolutely worthless, further proving my theory that he should die in a fire.<
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I mean, at least I don't think what I'm saying is funny. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:02 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:34 AM
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Really for me at this point its like what else can you say about this fucker? At least he finally owned up to the fact that he fucked up but what is he doing to fix the situation? Prolly not a lot. <
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Have we seen any sweeping changes in our intelligence service to make up for this? I dont recall seeing any but who knows! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:39 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA
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Seriously, what is it we're supposed to do now? What's done is done. You honestly think pulling out of Iraq as is is going to make things better? Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:53 PM 
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Yes. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:54 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Then you're a fucking idiot. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:25 PM 
Less oats more posts!
Less oats more posts!

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:05 PM
Posts: 48
I can't believe someone else thinks something different than I do on the internet. That's crazy.<
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-cc <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:27 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Then you clearly missed the 900 pages of thread on these forums debating the ramifications of pulling out of Iraq.<
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Let's start a new thread and go over them again though. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:08 PM 
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Arkayn telling me I'm an idiot gives me a good deal of justification for my views. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:39 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Actually, it was "fucking idiot". <
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And you're welcome. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:16 PM 
What? Another Expansion?!
What? Another Expansion?!

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:31 PM
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I could care less the actual reason we went there, its something that had to be done and I am glad we did it now instead of 10 yrs down the road. If you think everything was hunky dooray then you are a biased blind idiot....there is nothing that can debated. And I am not sure what part of el douche bag refusing to let the U.N do what it requested when it asked doesn't call cause for action aside from fingering waving that you do not see but alas...people who hate the pres are going to say whatever they can against him. <
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Honestly, I don't particularly like the guy or alot of his ideas or actions but dealing with the crazy fucking murderers that teach their young that all western idealists should die upon sight is not something I am going to hold against him. And incase you haven't talked to an Iraq citizen who has had to witness his family killed and his daughter raped then decapitated because he spoke out against sudam....try that before you fight the good fight champs.<
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He may have not done it with best interest at hand or dealt with it as good as he should have but in 20 yrs you are going to be thanking god he did son, I assure you of that. <
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But go ahead and sit in your arm chair and say it was dumb, that is the right you have that certain individuals protect and die for.<
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Oh and if some google experts might happen to come upon a survey of people actually over there and seen the shit that happens that were polled for their response on the war.. should post it please. Honestly not sure what results would be but I have numerous friends that have gotten back from the dead front infantry that was pushing into the cities since day one and not once have I heard one of them question the fact that we did what we did, but that is probably limited to maybe 70 people, would be interesting to see a larger poll honestly. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:49 PM 
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Quote:He may have not done it with best interest at hand or dealt with it as good as he should have but in 20 yrs you are going to be thanking god he didYeah, you know everyday I wake up and think to myself, "Gosh, I'm sure glad LBJ took us to Vietnam." <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:58 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Quote:Yeah, you know everyday I wake up and think to myself, "Gosh, I'm sure glad LBJ took us to Vietnam."<
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You're right, they are the same thing. We removed a
utal dictator from Vietnam. Remember?! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:02 PM 
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No, I don't remember that, I just remember Vietnam having to be done! I'm so thankful! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:03 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Keep comparing the war in Iraq to Vietnam. It makes you look teh smartest! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:10 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:54 AM
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Quote:Gosh, I'm sure glad LBJ took us to Vietnam.<
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Who did LBJ remove from power again? <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:14 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Quote:Who did LBJ remove from power again?<
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Himself in '68 by not running for re-elction when he realized he fucked everything up. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:38 PM 
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I'm sure glad we got rid of Ho Chi Minh and the Ho Chi Minhnnists! Damn Baathis.. er Commies! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:11 PM 
Cazicthule Bait
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from life experiences i have learned that pulling out is always a good call <i></i>

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:25 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA
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Ya know most of this shit wouldn't be going on if we had finished what needed to be done 14 years ago. Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:59 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Quote: I'm sure glad we got rid of Ho Chi Minh and the Ho Chi Minhnnists! Damn Baathis.. er Commies!<
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Nothing like hiding back peddling with self-proclaimed humor. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:12 PM 

Quote:Seriously, what is it we're supposed to do now? What's done is done. You honestly think pulling out of Iraq as is going to make things better?<
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I honestly think pulling out of Iraq is the thing to do, and the sooner we do it the better. I don't want our soldiers over there playing police and protecting their elections. We need to get back to hunting down terrorists and we need to get our troops back home for a much needed
eak. <
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The Iraqis will either step up to the plate and do the job themselves or they wont. It's really that simple. We can't stay there forever and our continued presence is clearly fueling the insurgency and the influx of foreign fighters. This whole policing operation isn’t exactly falling into the category of defending our interests both home and a
oad.<
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Many of the things Murtha has been saying are true. Whenever I think about what we’re doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can’t help hearing Bush in his campaign against Gore saying that we shouldn’t be “nation building.� I can’t believe the Democrats aren’t playing this clip every chance they get. It’s similar to the “read my lips, no new taxes� clip they used against his dad. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:14 PM 
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage
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If I'm backpedalling are you frontpedalling? <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:52 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

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Vespertine, bitches. <
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Gnome - Dark Iron - Knight of Arcadia<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:16 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:17 PM
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"...Gosh, I'm sure glad LBJ took us to Vietnam. ..."<
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vie...hower.html<
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General Dwight D. Eisenhower commanded Allied forces in Western Europe during World War II. Following the war, he served as supreme commander of NATO forces before being elected America's 34th president. He held the nation's highest office from 1953-61, during which time he provided military aid to the French in Indochina, but refused to commit U.S. troops there.<
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vie...tl2.html#a<
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1956<
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French Leave Vietnam<
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U.S. Training South Vietnamese<
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The U.S. Military Assistance Advisor Group (M.A.A.G.) assumes responsibility from the French for training South Vietnamese forces.<
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vie...e/tl2.html<
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1959<
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U.S. Servicemen Killed in Guerrilla Attack<
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Major Dale R. Buis and Master Sergeant Chester M. Ovnand become the first Americans to die in the Vietnam War when guerillas strike at Bienhoa.<
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http://www.state.gov/outofdate/bgn/v/31913.htm<
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In December 1961, at the request of South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem, President Kennedy sent U.S. military advisers to South Vietnam to help the government there deal with the Viet Cong campaign. In the wake of escalating political turmoil in the south after a 1963 generals' coup against President Diem, the United States increased its military support for South Vietnam. In March 1965, President Johnson sent the first U.S. combat forces to Vietnam. <
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Johnson was dealing with an already existing situation. US military personnel were already serving and dying in the Vietnam Conflict. The strongest similarity to the current situation is neither was declared war by act of Congress. <
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A first hand account of service in Iraq, and Captain Leach makes some very salient points.<
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http://www.bluegrassreport.org/<
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***SPECIAL REPORT*** A Report From Camp Taji, Iraq<
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Last month, during a discussion on BluegrassReport.org following the overheated rhetoric on the Iraq War debate that we heard from our own Rep. Geoff Davis (R) and Rep. Ron Lewis (R), a reader named Ronald Leach posted a couple of very thoughtful comments on the matter. <
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Upon closer look, it turned out that Mr. Leach was actually writing from Iraq and following some quick research I learned that he was Army 1st Lt. Ronald Leach, a 41-year-old physician's assistant who joined the Ohio National Guard in 1983 and worked his way up the chain of command, including being a member of Special Forces and was stationed at Camp Taji in Iraq. Leach is also a single father of three children.<
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After those posts, Captain Leach (he was recently promoted) and I exchanged a number of e-mails about his story, politics, the war, and how he ended up in Camp Taji, right outside of Baghdad, for two tours of duty. It was then that I asked him if he would be willing to share with us his soldier's perspective on how things on the ground were progressing and what daily life was like in Iraq. I promised him I would publish what he wrote in full without any edits. <
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Thankfully, Captain Leach took me up on that offer and I am really pleased to be able to publish not only what he wrote but also share the dozens of photos he e-mailed as well. I look forward to meeting Captain Leach soon. He has an impressive understanding and command of the state and national political environment and someone who certainly has the makings of fine candidate, if he ever chooses to serve his country in that fashion.<
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I will admit that his perspective below will likely challenge the beliefs of everyone on the issues of whether we should have invaded Iraq, how much longer we should stay, whether it was worth the human cost, whether we are making life better for Iraqis, and whether our soldiers were sent into that theater of combat with all the tools and plans they needed. It certainly made me think long and hard about the current debate. I'm sure it will do the same for you.<
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Finally, you can review the photo album I've put together right here. I'll be posting it as a stand-alone feature on the BluegrassReport.org front-page as well.<
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Thank you Captain Leach for all that you've done.<
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**************************************<
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Mark asked me to contribute some “on the ground feedback� from the Iraqi theater. Sir, I thank you for the invitation. I am glad to have this opportunity to reflect on soldiers and our operations in Iraq. Specifically I will reflect on the US soldiers’ desire to leave Iraq a better place. I will not use this forum to comment on the rationale, preconceptions, or management of this war. As an active duty US Army officer, I respect my limitations under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and I am thankful that our military is wholly subordinate to a civilian democratically elected government – all nations should be so blessed.<
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I want to talk about soldiers’ drive to do whatever our nation asks and their compassionate desire to make a difference in Iraq. And I will discuss the repercussions of a rapid withdrawal of US forces, as is increasingly suggested by our representatives. <
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While I am from Kentucky – stationed at Fort Knox, the unit to which I have been attached over the past year is the 550th Area Support Medical Company made up of 100 plus soldiers primarily out of Fort Bragg, NC and Fort Stewart, GA. The 550th ASMC’s primary mission has been to provide excellent medical care to the 1200 soldiers of the 3rd Infantry Division Support Brigade and its supported units. We have provided easy-access 24 hour medical care “sick call� coverage, trauma and mass casualty response and planning, and medical coverage for more than 50,000 miles of vital logistic convoys. The 550th has also provided immunizations and redeployment health assessment for more than 2000 soldiers. Over the past year the 550th has trained hundreds of soldiers in Combat Lifesaver classes, providing a medical response force multiplier for all tactical operations.<
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The convoys deserve special comment: Our combat medics, known as “91 Whiskey’s� , are assigned to medical coverage missions for convoys of trucks ferrying crucial support supplies and equipment from depots here in central Iraq to units throughout our area of operation and beyond. They have accompanied several hundred convoy missions within the 3rd Infantry Division’s operational foot print, as well as missions as far west as the Jordanian and Syrian boarders and as far south as Kuwait. These road missions are dangerous: many of our convoys have been hit by IED’s (Improvised Explosive Devises) VBIEDs (Vehicle-Borne IEDs), small arms fire and RPGs (rocket propelled grenades). One of our outstanding soldiers was awarded the Bronze Star with Valor device for his valiant and timely interventions that saved the lives of numerous Iraqi casualties after his convoy had been attacked by one of these VBIEDs. He epitomizes the courage and decisive actions with his compassionate treatment of Iraqi men and women as if they were his own family.<
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The 550th as a whole has demonstrated this indiscriminant compassion. Our clinic has kept its doors and care open to all who come - US soldiers, government contractors, Iraqi Army and civilians who fall sick or injured… We have been proud of our open compassion as ambassadors of good will and health. But the soldiers of the 550th were not satisfied with the confines of this primary mission and responsibility alone. We benefited from the latitude given by our command to seek and perform additional missions of opportunity. This command permission has allowed us the chance to redeploy knowing that we have contributed to the concerted efforts and sacrifices of more than 300,000 OIF veterans to help the Iraqi people surmount decades of war,
utality, and corruption to become the first stable tolerant democracy in the Arab community.<
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Despite the seeming uncertainty of the path to this goal, I think I have seen our American soldiers unconsciously fulfilling the mandate of American Revolution Chaplain (Dr) Vernon John: “Be ashamed to die until you have done something good for mankind�. Ralph Peters touched on this purposeful higher motivation of our soldier in his 24 Fe
uary 2004 article honoring the American soldier, The Best We’ve Got: “They’re part of the most integrated, representative American Institution – our military. And when our people stand and our leaders stand behind them, they can accomplish any job on earth. Defying countless predictions of disaster, our soldiers have accomplished more in Iraq than we had any right to expect. And they did it not because of some
illiant master plan – there was none – but because they took a look at the bloody mess they inherited, rolled up there sleeves, and went to work to fix it. They’re the best we’ve got�<
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The soldiers of the 550th “rolled up their sleeves� and sought every opportunity to participate in the training of Iraqi personnel in medical and life saving skills. They volunteered to provide day-by-day aid station teaching and assistance for an Iraqi National Guard Rifle Battalion, and they taught an intensive four day course of tactical combat casualty care to its medical personnel prior to the this Iraqi unit’s deployment to a risky engagement. Our eager medics joined forces with other training personnel to shape and teach the first formal combat medic classes in the new Iraqi Army. They designed and implemented a trauma skills course test that will likely be the basis of trauma testing in all future Iraqi combat medic training. 550th soldiers opened the clinic doors to provide administrative and ethical and mass casualty response instruction to the first two Iraqi Medical Officer Basic classes. We worked with military police advisors to reach out to our surrounding Iraqi Police stations, providing supplies and first responder instruction to more than 100 Iraqi Police. The training has already been credited with saving an Iraqi policeman’s life. Our company planned and launched the Taji Medical Society, a monthly meeting that
ings Iraqi Army health care personnel and coalition health providers together for a meal and for medical education topics. This forum has forged friendship and trust that have
idged national and cultural differences.<
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We have also reached out to the communities around our base as key medical participants in nearly 50 civil military operations. We have gone door-to-door in dozens of villages to treat medical problems and to better understand local health needs. In other villages, we have set up treatment at central locations and have treated all who have come to us. We have gathered and distributed supplies to nearby clinics and hospitals. We are ordering sets of reference books for clinics that have no medical books on their shelves. We have tried to coordinate medical care for children with exceptional health needs through consultations with specialists in Iraqi hospitals, with willing specialist in our combat support hospitals, or with physicians in the US.<
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We have heard countless tales of the sacrifice from Iraqi colleagues and civilians, coupled with innumerable expressions of gratitude for the hope that the US has
ought to them. And we have seen many sacrifices among our own soldiers: family problems, financial problems, depression and anxiety and nightmares. We have mourned the loss of two of our own to improvised explosive devices while volunteering for security missions.<
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The 44th MEDCOM deputy commander for clinical services, COL Jazarovic, said that we have been chosen by faith and circumstance to make history. We at the 550th have felt that we have contributed, even in these small ways – ways that were way beyond the scope of our assigned mission – to make history by
ing hope and the potential of democracy to this land. As we have worked side-by-side, each of us has felt the privilege of working together towards this goal, proud to have been able to act as goodwill ambassadors on behalf of our great nation. <
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Our precipitous disengagement from this endeavor would represent a victory to a radical minority within Iraq and influences from Iran, Syria and others who desire to force their intolerant extremist views on a peaceful majority who deserve better. A premature withdrawal, now that we have committed to democratization and human rights in Iraq, places our national resolve in question and credibility in jeopardy.<
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We can not accept arbitrary time lines – or worse – a cut and run mentality. We must recommit to accelerated training of Iraqi soldiers, policemen and National Guard. We must commit forces necessary to create the secure environment required for the continued reconstruction of this nation’s
oken infrastructure and must accelerate these efforts under the um
ella of this greater security. The orderly withdrawal of our troops corresponding with the orderly transition of the ground fighting to Iraqi soldiers requires this commitment. I urge for a national will to see this mission through to completion. Anything less – and certainly anything which disengages the United States prematurely – dishonors the sacrifices of our soldiers and is an abandonment of the Iraqi people. Their fate remains in our hands until this emerging democracy’s roots are set deeply enough to successfully withstand the ill intentions, influence, and violence of neighboring states with a vested interest in their failure. <
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Again, I will not offer my opinion on whether our initial invasion and subsequent occupation best served our national interests or the greater war on terror. This debate should have occurred during the months leading up to war, but objections were stifled in the post- September 11th atmosphere that disallowed any opposition with questions of patriotism or accusations of being soft on terrorism. The press, “America’s fourth estate�, may now regret its failure to ask questions. And, more significantly, our elected representatives abdicated their duties: they overwhelmingly failed in their responsibility to the citizenry to provide oversight, reasoned debate and due caution as they gave the Administration a blank check. They were more concerned with political expedience and near term elections than with legitimate debate.<
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This failure can now only add to “lessons learned� as a cautionary note about the fragility and imperfection of any political process, even one as well tested as our own great democracy. The debate’s relevance is to assure appropriate pre-intervention deliberations in the future, but its current value passed the second we launched the invasion of Iraq. <
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We are now here – in Iraq. This fact changes everything. Since our arrival a tyrant has been dethroned, the first free elections have been conducted twice (and soon to be three times), and the first fledgling democracy is taking root in an Arab nation. Regardless of your position on whether we should be here – we are – and we are now responsible for the outcome. Millions of people in Iraq and throughout the region trust the United States as partners in this struggle for their future. Whether you believe that Iraq was a
eeding ground for terror before our occupation - as claimed by the current administration - it will certainly be a
eeding ground for terror if we abandon Iraq to extremist and neighboring threats before Iraq is able to face and to defeat them. Our quitting Iraq at this time would likely result in civil war between rival Islamic factions, a Kurdish separatist state – with likely future conflict with Turkey, and the rise of a radical Islamic theocracy in the image of Iran. We must not forget the results of our failure to commit for the long term in Afghanistan: the establishment of the Taliban, a safe haven for terrorists, nearly 3000 Americans killed on September 11th 2001, the bombing of the USS Cole and the embassy in Nairobi, and the loss of basic human rights for millions of Afghan women.<
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While we have a long way to go in Iraq, I have seen positive progress. This is my second deployment to Iraq. At the end of my previous deployment, April 2004, an Iraqi Army, National Guard, Police and a Democratic Constitution were only concepts, far from reality. As we pushed north into Iraq Fe
uary of this year, I saw Iraqi police and Iraqi Army soldiers operating check points and providing security at key threat areas while putting their lives on the line throughout our convoy route as we skirted around Baghdad. The Iraqi people – men, women, Kurds, Sunni and Shia - have adopted a new constitution and have an interim government more representative of their nation than any in the region. Recent news developments point toward a changing tide as we continue to win the Iraqi hearts. Al Zarqawi’s credibility and influence has plunged secondary to his attacks on soft civilian targets and seemingly indiscriminate willingness to inflict violence on women and children. Additionally, various insurgent groups have expressed willingness to meet and negotiate with the new Iraqi government officials. It is the insurgent’s tenuous support that is non-sustainable – not the American resolve. <
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I and the soldiers of the 550th have had innumerable opportunities to work directly with our Iraqi
others - police, soldiers, medical providers, local governing councils and citizens. Daily they are bearing an ever-increasing responsibility for their own security, governance, and national destiny. The people of Iraq consistently express their sincere thanks for our commitment to the new Iraq and their future. I pray that we do not prove unworthy of their faith and trust.<
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I have included multiple pictures which depict the varied contributions the soldiers of the 550th have made to Operation Iraqi Freedom and our commitment to the future of Iraq. These photos are only a micro-representation of the contributions being made daily by the 150,000 soldiers currently deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. <
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<
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I sincerely thank you for this venue and an opportunity to extend this verbal salute to the best we’ve got – the American Soldier - and – urge our representatives to resist the urge to once again yield to the prevailing winds. The national will requisite for our success in Iraq will follow their lead.<
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Thank you<
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Captain Ronald Leach<
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Proudly serving with the 550th Area Support Medical Company, Taji Iraq.<
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***************************************<
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:40 AM 
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Selling FBR First Torch!

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while i think we did need to go in 100% and agree it was the right thing to do it is about time to pull out. Us staying there at this point with force it not helping much we sould have advisors over there and a small force to protect them but other then that pull our troops out and get them home. Drundor Ducex Warlord Co-Leader of Fearless Alliance <
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Magnamar 70 Nemesis <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:43 AM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
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WoW: Prystus
Ranvarian<
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<
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"Have we seen any sweeping changes in our intelligence service to make up for this? I dont recall seeing any but who knows!"<
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Honestly? I hoipe we a sa civilina populace.. DON'T! See any changes. I hope things appear just as status quo as usual. <
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If significant changes had/have been made, and you and I were AWARE of them. it would mean someone somwhere was fucking up, and letting out too much damn information.<
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And we all know that information coming from the Intelligence service about how it operates ias a bad thing, right? <i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:47 AM 
Troller in Training
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As for the OP - this news is completely unsurprising, considering that one of Pres. Bush's personal goals when entering the office was finishing off Saddam Hussein however he could do it. He clearly felt that the US had a moral obligation to get rid of Hussein as has been said before, many places. Too bad he didn't ask his Dad why he didn't "finish the job". The elder Bush destroyed his personal political career to do something he felt was right for the US - I admire that in him. <
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Lupic Wulfsib<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:14 AM 
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage

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I don't think HW's decision not to oust Saddam had much effect in his election campaign. If I remember right it was more economic than foreign policy. American's admired the way HW handled foreign policy matters. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:23 AM 
10 Years? God im old!
10 Years? God im old!
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Remember shock and awe? The real war in Iraq was over before the ground troops even caught up to the front line. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:49 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
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Location: Sarasota, FL
If anyone is even remotely surprised by this, then maybe you didn't see the little copyright on the bottom of his statement marked (2002) and realise that this little speech was pre-prepared before going into Iraq.<
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<
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Here's the problem. We have only ourselves to blame. Not so much those who voted for him the first time, since, well, the alternative was Al Gore (so maybe we CAN blame the democrats for all this by not giving us a candidate worth a shit in the past 2 elections.), but anyone who overlooked all the obvious 'Things just ain't right in the white house' bullshit and RELECTED the fucker in. Yes, you hold about 50% of the blame. Those who DONT vote hold the other 50. And now we are seeing the results of all the BS that has been going on in the greatest 'Good Old Boy' network since Teddy Rosevelt took his posse hunting all across the world. Seriously, people talk about Clinton, but the corruption we're seeing in this Republican run white house makes lying about a blow job seem like childs play.<
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Look at how Dubya has managed the economy? The budget surplus. Anyone amazed how the third quarter profits of oil companies was HUGE, and now that it's 'out', prices magically float back down to normal and nothing in the world has changed to the point that oil prices would be affected that way?<
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I have not doubts, personally, in my mind that the WMD excuse was that all along, an excuse, known by the topmost people, assisted by fa
ication from those a little lower down knowing their ass would be covered and looking forward to round 2 versus Iraq. <
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You could see this speech coming years ago. Timing is dead perfect too since the shitstorm (if there even is one in this fucking apathy we call the US) will die down in time for Election Push 2008!<
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<
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God help us. If the Dem's can't find a candidate better than Hillary, this country will be in ruins by 2012 with another republican taking over for 4 more years. Mark these words now. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:13 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:54 AM
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Am I really reading that some of you compare Iraq, where we successfully ousted an oppressive dictator to Viet Nam where we failed to oust anything? <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:41 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Quote:Am I really reading that some of you compare Iraq, where we successfully ousted an oppressive dictator to Viet Nam where we failed to oust anything? <
>
Yes. It's a way for people like Rayvenn to downplay what we have done in Iraq. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:45 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 PM
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Hey Ark, so Bush has admitted the intelligence was wrong. What were you saying about that previously though?<
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<
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<
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Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:49 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:12 AM
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Quote:Hey Ark, so Bush has admitted the intelligence was wrong. What were you saying about that previously though?<
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About faulty intel? Once I found out Intel was faulty, I still supported him due to the fact that the information he, along with Congress received, allowed them and forced them to make the decisions they made.<
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<
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Not sure where you're taking this, but feel free to quote me previously. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:53 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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And for the record, I still think that he was hiding shit when we went in there. He previously admitted to having a weapons program, then couldn't tell the U.N. where they went. /shrug<
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<
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He probably had time to move them to Syria. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:10 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 PM
Posts: 1130
What color is the sky in your world?!! <
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<
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Nah I'm too lazy to go back and look up quotes, but you did rabidly defend the whole 'there are WMD!!!' thing, even when we were at the point where we knew they didn't have them. I just had to tweak your nose now that Bush himself is saying 'uh oops!'<
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And I'm laughing that you're still halfass defending it (maybe they're moved...in Syria!) Maybe they're ...invisible! Dun Dun DUNNNN.<
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<
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<
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Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:22 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

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Location: Sarasota, FL
Yeah, he injected all his Bioweapons into the asses of camels and now they run about frolicking right under our nose.<
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<
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WMDs always have been nothing more than a red herring in regards to Iraq. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:32 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Two questions for you, Tarot.<
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1) Did Saddam Hussein admit previously to having weapons programs he wasn't supposed to have?<
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2) Did he sufficiently provide the U.N. with evidence that he got rid of them?<
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I think you and I can probably agree on both those answers.<
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The difference between saying this, and saying "We have evidence that there are stockpiles", as the intel showed, are 2 different things.<
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And if you want to keep flashing your <
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Say the same to any of the people who keep posting threads about "OMGZLOLZ! Bush lied to us and should be impeached and we need to pull out of Iraq cause it's Vietnam!!!111!!!1<
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<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:51 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 PM
Posts: 1130
From the horse's mouth:<
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"After all, this [Saddam Hussein] is a guy that tried to kill my dad at one time."<
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<
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* Houston, Texas, Sep. 26, 2002 <
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"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." -May 29, 2003<
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"So what's the difference?"<
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<
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* 2003 Dec 16, to Diane Sawyer, as she presses about the administration's verbiage about Iraqi WMD vs. the fact none were used or found <
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"Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere."<
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<
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* Joke at the Radio and Television News Correspondents Association [58]<
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* March 25, 2004<
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"We may still find weapons. We haven't found them yet."<
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<
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* 2 August 2004<
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I wasn't happy when we found out there wasn't weapons [of mass destruction in Iraq]"<
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* 2nd Presidential Debate, October 8, 2004<
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<
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<
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<
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<
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Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:52 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 PM
Posts: 1130
PS: Where's bin Laden?
<
>
Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:55 AM 
Less oats more posts!
Less oats more posts!

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:05 PM
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Bin Laden didn't blow up the towers -- George W. Bush did. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:57 AM 

He's bin hiding. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:02 AM 
Selling 50 Orc Belts!
Selling 50 Orc Belts!

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Looks to be a successful election in Iraq. We must be doing something wrong. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:06 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:11 AM
Posts: 324
We didn't scuttle enough.<
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Red states, I'm looking at you... <
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Gnome - Dark Iron - Knight of Arcadia<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:15 AM 
Master Baiter
Master Baiter

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:24 AM
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Location: Thunderhorn
EQ1: Abysmul
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Quote:Otherwise, the main effects of the gas shelling were tearing and shortness of
eath. Later chemical attacks produced additional symptoms, including blistering and burns. Those who died perished, in fits of shivering, within an hour of exposure to the chemicals; others acted as if deranged, and stumbled around laughing hysterically.<
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<
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Taken from: HERE <i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:16 AM 
Selling 50 Orc Belts!
Selling 50 Orc Belts!

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Just think, if the Democrats would have put up a dead money they would have beat Bush. Instead they picked Kerry. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:23 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:He's bin hiding.<
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lol.. this made me laugh for some reason <
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Quote: Looks to be a successful election in Iraq. We must be doing something wrong.<
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So one good thing happening justifies entire wars based on non-existent premises.<
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Wait long enough, and something good will happen in any country we invade. Therefore, we have prior justification to invade and kill anyone we want. I say we start with Canada-- they have national health care! They must be evil.<
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<
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:29 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:11 AM
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Fuck that, they can keep that shitty system all to themselves. <
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Gnome - Dark Iron - Knight of Arcadia<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:34 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:12 AM
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Quote:So one good thing happening justifies entire wars based on non-existent premises.<
>
Yeah, removing Saddam from power was a bad thing. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:35 AM 
Avatar of War
Avatar of War
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:05 PM
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Location: Phoenix
EQ1: Noni Deecups
EQ2: Oliva Love
After the towers many people wanted revenge not to liberate another country. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:57 AM 
Selling 50 Orc Belts!
Selling 50 Orc Belts!

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:34 PM
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Quote:So one good thing happening justifies entire wars based on non-existent premises.<
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<
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I dont care. I was shot at enough by Saddam's military to not give a shit why we went in. See, we were preventing Saddam from bombing the Kurd's in the north and the Shi'a in the shouth. Saddam did not like us preventing him from killing his own people so he had his military shoot at us every chance they had. I know you think that Operation Northern Watch and Southern Watch were wrong because it was a military operation. Somehow you think that letting this madman indescriminatly kill people is ok and that using military force to reduce the number of deaths is wrong. I guess you wernt that much of a friend to the Kurds and Shi'a (yes this is a dig at your Quakerism). I hold no malice against the military forces who fired on me. They were in a bad situation and if they didnt fire they along with their families would probabaly be tortured and killed. However the madman who ordered the military to fire, and the madman who tortured and killed everyone who stood in his way or did not follow his orders to the 't', and the madman who if given a chance would have killed off more and more innocent people JUST to stave his appite for power and destruction NEEDED to be removed. I dont give a shit about what was said in 2002, I made my mind up in 1998.<
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I think we should remove some more violent psychopaths, starting with the ones that we never should have put in power during the cold war.<
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You just dont want any blood on your hands, but when you do nothing to prevent a mad psychopath from killing people you most definatly have blood on your hands.<
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You are looking at the blood of 1 million innocent deaths in Rwanda and Darfur alone because of your inaction. And you have to be shitting me if you think that a show of force, 200,000 UN troops WITH the ability to lawfully engage the milita, would have not saved lives. The blood is on your hands. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:14 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
<
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So much hate for me... it makes me sad.<
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You can say what you like, but the fact is I have never argued for inaction, in any of the situations you have mentioned.<
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Have fun with your false conception of non-violence though!<
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<
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:16 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Karthun wins this thread. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:32 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
<
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<
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If Arkayn says you win the thread.... then you automatically lose the thread.<
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<
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:34 PM 
Master Baiter
Master Baiter

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:24 AM
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Location: Thunderhorn
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<
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If Fibur says you automatically lose the thread.... then you automatically win the thread. <i></i>

_________________
"It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional."
-A. Scalia


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:34 PM 

Damn the bad luck. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:48 PM 
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage
Fell for 50,000 points of Damage

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:30 AM
Posts: 557
Elections and democracy are means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. War supporters keep forgetting this. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:50 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:12 AM
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Quote:Elections and democracy are means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. War supporters keep forgetting this. <
>
Democracy is a constant, as are elections to some extent. <i></i>


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