Quote:What if, instead of invading Iraq, we quit enforcing the no-fly rule over the Kurdish north and mainly Shia south part of Iraq? How many of those people would have died at Saddam's hand? I'd venture to say it would be more than 30,000 given Saddam's track record. In addition, the torture that Iraqi prisoners received would be instead of having a female soldier hold a dog leash on them - would be replaced by the Saddam standbys, i.e. putting people into plastic shredders, cutting their body parts off, handcuffing them and pushing them off buildings, etc. etc. Let's let the Iraqi people vote on returning to that.<
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Now I know people will say "That would be different. The US wouldn't be directly causing those deaths." While that may be true, those people would still be just as dead either way.<
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The UN never authorized the no-fly-zones, the US and GB were under more and more pressure to end it, specifily from France and Russia. It was doubtful that sanctions were going to continue past the end of 2003.<
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The irony is that people dont realize that we were at a limited war with Iraq from the end of Desert Storm. For many units that participated in ONW and OSW, like my AWACS, our operation load when down from 4 to 3 after the Iraq invasion.<
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Quote:So when do you propose we send our troops into Darfur, Bobolink?<
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Over 1 year ago, it should be under the UN flag and have the responsibility to defend innocent people. <i></i>

I agree that we should do something. But we know that the UN isn't even willing to call it genocide. That leaves it on us.<
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So... which troops do we send? <i></i>

Quote:The thing is, you refuse to see the global, far-reaching consequences of our actions. <
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The war in Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg as far as consequences of US foreign policy goes, seriously.<
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Quote:The result of U.S. meddling in Iraq is a burgeoning alliance between Iran and Iraq<
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This was bound to happen anyhow.<
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Quote: a growing civil war (this time, with atrocities being performed by the Shiites on the Sunnis)<
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Yup.<
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Quote: and a serious loss of U.S. power and influence as China and Russia continue friendly relations with the Arab governments. (Putin calling Russia "the best friend" that the Arabs have today.) <
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Just an FYI, Russia isnt your enemy, the cold war ended in the 80's <i></i>

Ravyenn, you crack me up, seriously. Too bad one day you'll become an adult and you won't be nearly as charming.<
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I never proposed sending troops to Darfur. Re-read my posts. I'm not happy about what's going on there (or genocide anywhere). Besides, it's the president's decision where to send troops, not mine. <
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The UN has shown what it can do with its troups. It did so well in S
enecia. What about in Ghana? Promoting pedophilia and prostitution 4tw! <i></i>

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Is there anyone that thinks the US sucks more than CD does? <i></i>

Quote:Let's also talk about the massive deficits and the war as a huge distraction from China's
illiant financial, political and covert strategies
inging China closer every day to total domination of the U.S.<
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so talk to us about it.... <i></i>

Quote: I agree that we should do something. But we know that the UN isn't even willing to call it genocide. That leaves it on us.<
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So... which troops do we send?<
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The US is tied up diplomaticly in the cease fire of Sudan's civil war, witch is one of the causes of the mess in Darfur. If we send troops in to stop Darfur, there is a good chance that the civil war will start back up. This is why it needs to be under the UN flag. <i></i>

OK wow, I think I see the problem. CD, I think you believe the US is not only the most significant factor in Arabic politics, but perhaps the only factor. All I hear from you on this topic is how the US is responsible for everything gone wrong in the Middle East. Well, if you see it that way, you also have to say that the US is responsible for everything gone right. If you do not want to go that route, than you need to accept the fact that the nations of the Middle East are ultimately responsible for their own welfare regardless of US intervention.<
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Quote:Let's also talk about the massive deficits and the war as a huge distraction from China's
illiant financial, political and covert strategies
inging China closer every day to total domination of the U.S.<
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er... wait, if China is dominating the US, than they are actually responsible for what is going wrong in Iraq right?<
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This embodies my problem with the liberal philosophy... a lack of personal responsibility. Everyone else but the people enduring a hardship is more responsible for their problems than the individuals themselves. Sometimes you need to look in the mirror. <i></i>

I read that China has been aggressively buying our national debt. They have acquired 20% of our debt so far. That means we pay China about $70B a year on INTEREST! <
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That, on top of the U.S./China trade deficit...<
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They may not run the show now, but what happens if the debt keeps growing?<
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(My numbers may be fuzzy, check DoTreasury for specifics.) Masteraen/Wulolen<i></i>

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"Be glad there was a keyboard, monitor and miles of fiber between us when you typed that."

"State that opinion in my presence, you fucktard, and I'll show you how valid it is when I'm kicking the shit out of you."

Yep China is definetely becoming scary. They aren't quite there yet, but with their increasing industrialization, and vast population I fully expect our status as worlds only superpower is short.
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I personally believe the instability of their government will end these problems. Even though it doesnt seem to be in vogue here to not be a doomsday phophesy.<
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Besides, I heard the Chinese investors that are involved in purching US debt are all moving to Canada... so the REAL secret plot is that the US will be taken over by CANADA! <i></i>

Anna is right. China is having thousands of incidents of civil demonstrations/riots/unrest per year. Thousands. I don't see the foundation being strong enough to challenge the US economically. <i></i>

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as...index.html<
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Quote:BEIJING, China (AP) -- Hundreds of riot police have sealed off a southern Chinese village after fatally shooting as many as 10 demonstrators, villagers said Friday.<
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It was the deadliest known use of force by security forces against Chinese civilians since the killings around Tiananmen Square in Beijing in 1989 and marked an escalation in the social protests that have convulsed the Chinese countryside.<
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Police were searching for the protest organizers, villagers said.<
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Thousands of people gathered Tuesday in Dongzhou, in southern Guangdong province, to protest the amount of money offered by the government as compensation for land taken to construct a wind power plant.<
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Police fired into the crowd, killing as many as 10 people, mostly men, and wounding up to 20, villagers reached by telephone said Friday. They said many people are missing.<
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State media have not mentioned the violence, and both provincial and local governments have repeatedly refused to comment. This is typical in China, where the ruling Communist Party controls the media and lower-level authorities are leery of releasing information without permission from the central government.<
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The number of protests in China's vast, poverty-stricken countryside has risen in recent months as anger comes to a head over land seizures, corruption and a yawning wealth gap that experts say threatens social stability. The government says about 70,000 such conflicts occurred last year, although many more are believed to have gone unreported.<
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The clashes also have become increasingly violent, with injuries sustained on both sides and huge amounts of damage done to property as protesters vent their frustration in face of indifferent or bullying authorities.<
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All the villagers reached by The Associated Press said they were nervous and scared, and most did not want to be identified for fear of retribution. One man said the situation was still "tumultuous."<
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A 14-year-old girl said a local official visited the village Friday and called the shootings "a misunderstanding."<
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"He said he hoped it wouldn't become a big issue," the girl said by telephone. "This is not a misunderstanding. I am afraid. I haven't been to school in days."<
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She added: "Come save us."<
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Another villager said there were at least 10 deaths. "The riot police are gathered outside our village. We've been surrounded," the woman said, sobbing. "Most of the police are armed. We dare not go out of our home.<
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"We are not allowed to buy food outside the village. They asked the nearby villagers not to sell us goods," she said. "The government did not give us proper compensation for using our land to build the development zone and plants. Now they come and shoot us. I don't know what to say."<
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One woman said an additional 20 people were wounded.<
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"They gathered because their land was taken away and they were not given compensation," she said. "The police thought they wanted to make trouble and started shooting."<
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She said there were several hundred police with guns in the roads outside the village Friday. "I'm afraid of dying. People have already died."<
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"These reports of protesters being shot dead are chilling," Catherine Baber, deputy Asia director at Amnesty International, said in a statement. "The increasing number of such disputes over land use across rural China, and the use of force to resolve them, suggest an urgent need for the Chinese authorities to focus on developing effective channels for dispute resolution."<
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Amnesty spokeswoman Saria Rees-Roberts said Friday in London that although she did not want to compare Tuesday's clashes with Tiananmen Square, where hundreds if not thousands of protesters died, "police shooting people dead is unusual in China and it does demand an independent investigation." Marauder Harabakc Goat<i></i>

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

I heard a rumor about major epidemics on China right now, but haven't found any corroborating information. - Leo<i></i>

Quote:Anna is right.<
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/faint... but hey even a
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and where was my "Neesha" for misspelling prophecy? <i></i>

I know a Chinese ex-pat who snuck out during the early 90's. All of the pro-democracy groups and going into hiding now because the government is cracking down HARD before the 2008 olympics. During the olympics we will see just how heavy handed the Chinese government is. <i></i>

I'd like to see the visitors to the Olympics wear clothes that say 6/4/85 on them. <i></i>

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