Well I think that was a given. We'll see what happens in the future, they'll review it again after the legal proceedings are over. The NFL loses nothing by suspending him currently, and over the course of any prison time. He wouldn't be playing anyway. Then if they reinstate him afterwards, they still don't look like assholes because they "took action" and then can spin it as "hey he did his time, etc."

Not saying whether it's right or wrong, or whether he should be banned or whatever...just saying that regardless of their reasons it's pretty win-win for them atm.

Now as to whether or not he should ever be allowed to play in the NFL again...that's another issue obviously. I don't think someone should necessarily lose a job because of criminal actions which had nothing to do with that job (or their ability to do that job, or surrounding duties of that job, etc.) No one would want a convicted rapist working with teen age girls, but they're not barred from ALL jobs. Though employers have the right to decide whether or not they want someone with a conviction working for them.

Anyhoo, really depends on the NFL's policies, and of course money. If Vick will bring in the money...it's worth it for them. If not, well...

I've already said I'm not into football really, so my opinion there really doesn't matter. They won't lose or gain money from me no matter what they do.

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While I agree with this mostly, I think due to the "image" factor in this, the NFL would be justified in never allowing him to be associated with their organization. I am sure he will have a place on reality TV anyway..

I was listening to Mike & Mike on the way in to work today and they were either talking to Michael Wilbon or playing a clip from when they were talking about Vick. Anyhow, the question was asked "would the press be the same if it were Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, or Tom Brady?"

The way I see it the answer is: It would be the same. Vick, Manning, Brady, Favre as well as Ray Lewis, LT, and to a lesser extent Chad Johnson, TO, Reggie Bush, Donovan McNabb and Drew Brees ARE the FACE of the NFL. If you put any of them (well maybe except Chad Johnson he is a Bengal afterall) the news would be just as big because those are the STARS of the NFL.

Why is Vick any different? Because he's a "Star" or the "Face" of the NFL? Because he's on one of the highest paid contracts in the sport? Because he donates to charity?

He's been brought up on federal charges...he's admitted to murdering domesticated animals who were being trained for use in an illegal sport...and now he's pleading out to attempt to save his own ass. Who gives a shit if his crimes had nothing to do with Football? Thats quite possibly one of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.

I'll use Pete Rose as an example again...and his Gambling WAS related to his sport. Pete Rose voluntarily accepted a permanent place on the MLB ineligible list in exchange for the MLB to not proceed with the investigation of the Gambling charges (this was of course after a long legal battle with the then Commissioner of the MLB, Bart Giamatti). At the time, he took no responsibility for his actions but he agreed that there was a factual reason for the permanent ban. So basically plead "No Contest" to the MLB and accepted the ban. He is still eligible to file for reinstatement (which he has done numerous times), but his filing has basically gone ignored. Yes, in the end he admitted to the alligations (be it 15 years later)...but his punishment still stands.

Illegal Gambling on your own sport for profit vs Raising animals for an illegal sport, murdering some of said animals in relation to said illegal sport, etc etc...I see a WORLD of fucking difference here.

If they reinstate Vick after all this is said and done, then I think the sports world as a whole should completely reevaluate how they handle ANY type of criminal charges (Federal or not) brought against ANY player.

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I agree with the ESPN Morning Wonks who noted that if this involved three prominent white quaterbacks--Tom Brady [PBUH--Ed.], Peyton Manning [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.], or Brett Favre [Who?--Ed.]--did this they WOULD be receiving the same attention and condemnation.

This is not racial . . . to state the obvious.

--J.D.

Well he did violate the Codes of Conduct in his contract (all NFL contracts have em I believe).

It's my estimation, that the NFL does more to protect its image than any of the other major sports in the country.

All the major sports have codes of conduct that players have to abide by or they can get kicked out of whichever league it is.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

No question it was a given, it was going to happen. I'm just happy to actually see the event unfold.

Regardless of whether the NFL is wins, loses, comes even, whatever... regardless of whether Vick gets anything beyond this... I am simply happy to see him suffering at this moment for his actions. I don't think anyone can go through getting their career pissed on like this, whether they're going to come right back up out of it or what have you, and NOT be just a little upset about it. I swim merrily in his tears. And I try not to be a vengeful person, but justice served to any degree makes my day just a bit brighter.

Another for good measure:

/CHEER

Oh, and also I agree football sucks.

I know people who just don't like the game in general. Me personally, I hate it because out of the sports I've played and watched, football has to be one of the lamest(besides baseball) for a few reasons. It requires some degree of athletic prowess and coordination, no question about it. However, any game that gives you timeouts after every 20-30 seconds of playtime is pretty much weaksauce. That's why you see all these huge built-up, sometimes even overweight players on the field who can do a quickie run around a field and be done with it. Games we should be looking at for true athletic ability would be games like basketball, or soccer, or perhaps hockey. If baseball is the fat man's sport, which I think it is, then baseball is its fiesty little kid brother.

errr, football*

Yeah Darkomen, but NFL actually enforces theirs fairly often and publically..

NBA is full of thugs, Baseball has been overlooking steroid abuse for how many years?

What's wrong with steroids. Seriously, if taken in proper moderation with doctor supervision, what's wrong with it? Fucking with animals that cannot "consent" to fighting, I get that. But what you put in your own body is your business, regardless of the performance effect. It hurts no one and your occupation is irrelevant.

Because steroids were never designed for long term usage, the effects of long term use even at prescribed dosage

are dangerous and have proven side effects.

Draconi

And the NFL ignores guys that are falling apart at 40-50 years of age from playing football for 10 years and refuse to help with medical issues while their pensions aren't enough to pay for shit. They aren't by any means some shining example of how a sports league should be. They all suck ass in one way or another.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

If they're smart with their money, they can afford to take care of themselves if they've played ten years.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

That is a good point about ex NFL players after they've retired, and is one of the sad black eyes of the NFL.

To me, it's not so much the usage of steroids that tarnishes the MLB, it's the fake "blind eye" they have toward it and how they try to pass it off as they have no clue about it.

Should also note, I don't care for MLB or really the NBA, so it's easier for me to 'see' negativity against the two organizations, I admit I could just be naive about the NFL as I'm a fan.

On the semi-related topic...looks like DMX has some explaining to do...

http://www.kirotv.com/entertainment/139 ... etail.html

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Sorry but steroids is cheating, period. There is no analogy to a vitamin supplement, that's natural human health. In the future do we allow augmented arms and legs? After all, it's your body. Then it becomes who has the best race car parts, not who has the most skill. Taking steroids does not allow for a natural display of what talent you have developed naturally, but rather what artificial enchancements you can take to make yourself better without earning it. Yes, we all know it's hard work to develop your body with or without steroids. But the point remains, you're still not directly earning everything you have in the end with it.

It's artificial, and it makes the game artificial. Vitamins, etc are often found in different foods, so that's not really a fair comparison in that regard either.

The current salary minimums are completely worthless to guys who played in the 60s-80s and didn't make enough to cover current medical costs.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

If they invested the money wisely they could cover inflationary costs with their investment return plus their pensions. Especially if they're smart and pay for private insurance.

I have no sympathy for people who play a game/sport professionally and wind up with money problems, since even in the 60s, the minimum salary for a football player was almost 2x what the average person made.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

And the average person's body isn't falling apart at 40-50 because of multiple concussions and injuries sustained in a game where they only made 2x the average salary and require ongoing physical therapy. Some of these guys that played ball can't even walk without a cane or walker because their bodies literally are falling apart, they can't physically work. It's a fucking disgrace these guys have to go on government disability because the league says it's not a big enough disability for their benefits to kick in. My dad is 10 years older then a lot of these guys and has done physically labor his entire life and he's in infinitely better shape.

Salaries now and in the last 15 years are unbelievably different then they were 20-40 years ago.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Once again, you're not addressing any point I'm making.

if they were smart, they would have invested their money and would be able to buy private medical insurance with the proceeds

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

THEY HAVE LEAGUE BENEFITS WHICH THE NFL REFUSES TO LET THEM USE BECAUSE THE DISABILITY ISN'T "bad enough" SO THEY GET SHAFTED.

I don't know about you, but I'd call not being able to walk without aid a pretty decent disability. In adition to all the other medical shit they have going on.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

I really hope that is troll-baiting for your sake Elessar. What's wrong with steroids? What. The. Fuck. Pick up a newspaper once in a while at least before making such a statement.

Firstly, there is not a single reputable doctor in the entire country who would prescribe long-term steroid usage in a normal, healthy individual. If you haven't noticed, the few doctors that get caught prescribing steroids to these atheletes get investigated by the medical board, and in some instances get their license suspended and/or revoked. This means that long-term steroid usage is not an acceptable practice to the medical community, and therefore any doctor found in violation of our standards can get punished.

The only reason a doctor would prescribe steroids to atheletes or teenage boys so they can bulk up is money, pure and simple. They are either the dumbest doctors in the world who haven't kept up with medical literature and understand that it is unethical to prescribe steroids in these circumstances, or they are the most unethical, because they know and they still want to make a quick easy buck. Either way, I say revoke the licenses of every last one of them. Same with doctors/pharmacists who run these pain pill mills prescribing vicodin over the internet to anyone with a pulse and a credit card, and with no need for an examination. You think you can figure out why they are doing that? The goodness of their heart? Improve public healthcare? Nope.......money.

Never mind the slippery slope which is your line of reasoning. There are many drugs far less harmful long-term to the body than steroids, which are also illegal. Marijuana would be an example. Most drugs, "taken in proper moderation with doctor supervision" as you so eloquently put it, would be OK. Pay a doctor $100,000 a year and I'm sure he/she will be happy to dose and monitor your crystal meth habit or cocaine and make sure you don't get addicted or suffer any long-term side effects.

they shouldn't be forced to rely on a former employer for support, is my point.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

This is what happens when you educate yourself with only the media.

You know those steaks you enjoy on the grill while watching the big game or having the big reunion? Yep, that's right. Steroids....it's whats for dinner. Pound down a burger at McDonalds or Burger King and you think it's simply soy? Guess how farms grow enough to supply enough soy to put so many burgers in peoples faces.

Your bro get in a car wreck and have his spine fucked up? Guess what they are going to suggest him to help it heal and grow back so he isn't eating applesauce and slurpees the rest of his days.

You almost got it right. What we hear about them is about money because when you hear the media mention steroids, it's always in a bad light. Doctors that do get in trouble are the ones that prescribe it without even having patients under examination. The only reason they are perceived as a whole to be "bad", is because people like you continue to jump on the hype train the media is driving.

Abuse comes with the territory. It is no different than any other medication. People can get addicted to Advil just as easily or cough syrup. If people cannot make smart choices and regulate themselves, they would simply harm themselves with something else if a steroid wasn't available to them.

[quote="Nekrotic]I really hope that is troll-baiting for your sake Elessar. What's wrong with steroids? What. The. Fuck. Pick up a newspaper once in a while at least before making such a statement.[/quote]

But, wait, you're trusting the media instead of polling the scientific or medical community?

Sad thing is, it only took me a few mins to find more information in my P.E. class lab book. Finding things on the internet should take even less, outside of wikipedia even.

Hope you don't take steroids Nekroitc. An enhanced knee-jerk reaction like that could crush your skull.

yep the damn near .001 micrograms of beef steroid you get in your steak, is right up there with

the 15cc's you inject into your ass for performance enhancement


Draconi

You guys do know that Nekrotic is a doctor, right?

heh.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

And for that matter, the steroids most commonly prescriped are not anabolic steroids.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I really hope that is troll-baiting for your sake Elessar. What's wrong with steroids? What. The. Fuck. Pick up a newspaper once in a while at least before making such a statement.[/quote]

Or, I could check my medicine cabinet for properly prescribed anabolics.



Incorrect. There are a number of reasons to do so. I'm sure you're familiar with all of them.



Teenagers - I can agree with that. They are not able to consent to any risks involves. Adults? I'd be happy with money being a primary factor so long as the risks are clearly stated. Even still, it's up to the INDIVIDUAL to educate themselves on what they put into their bodies. It's really that simple.



There is NO slippery slope with what you put in your body. NONE. It's not yours or anyone else's business. This wasn't an attempt to troll, it was a serious question. You cannot comparely moderated steroid use with total abuse. There's a big fucking difference there. The "drugs are bad mmkay?" Nancy Reagan approach is flawed here, sorry.

So? I'll trust documented research over someone with a piece of paper that says he is legally certified to write me a perscription, especially when his whole argument is based on media hype.

He going to bring the DoctorX pain?

Anabolic steroids are not 100% lethal either so both instances of whatever argument he makes is incorrect.

The outcome lies in those who use them, not in the drug itself. If you're juicing every day simply for a visual affect or to enhance performance for a quick edge, naturally it will lead to abuse and cause side effects in a lot of cases. If he's about to cite Chris Benoit as a reference, it still has not been proven to be a cause of what happened, even with the level they found in his blood. For every one instance the media spins this story, there are 10 that go untouched or conveniently forgotten. The Govenator is a good example.

Fuck yeah, personally I think steroids should be mandatory for all pro athletes, and not just in moderation, I'm talking sky's the limit. I want to see gynormous he-men ripping off each others' limbs every Monday night. I mean, isn't that the point?

While we're at it, we should take off the speed limiters on cars in NASCAR, too. Fuck safety; it's their own bodies!

A lot of NASCAR drivers wouldn't complain about that change, depending on the course.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I'm not really interested in watching sports where the determining factor in whether you get paid the big bucks is not your athleticism, but how much money you can pour into becoming bionic commando football player. The natural logical conclusion to the argument "allow steroids because it's their own bodies and it's their choice" is just that, IMO.

Great game.

haha

And wait, nas-cars have speed limiters on them? Wtf. I thought the point was to drive in circles really fast. I say take 'em off, hell take the brakes out of the cars too - lighten 'em up for more speed! Redneck natural selection, unh.

P.S. http://www.theonion.com/content/video/n ... ls_winning

3 in a row, I'm totally DocXing this thread

They use restrictor plates in some of the super speedway races, there aren't really speed limiters persay. The rules require equipment to be fairly equal power no matter how it's engineered to ensure fair racing, that's why people get fined out the ass and suspended when they're caught with shit that's not supposed to be there after the race.

And we're not talking about something happening in the future, we're talking about shit that's already happened. The fucking league benefits are there to use, the NFL is just being too fucking cheap to help the players that helped to get them where they are today. These guys aren't able to make a living because of varying degrees of disabilities they recieve from playing football for years and years on end.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Major side effect risks.

Furthermore, there will be a drive for teens to use them in order to play a sport in HS so they can play it in college to have a chance to make a team. The "reward"--potentially millions of dollars--will overwhelm a kid. It overwhelms adults.

This is how it affects others.

--J.D.

You just described every decision made by anyone between the ages of cradle and grave.

And that requires someone to take a direct action themselves. It's all about choice and education. I am quite good at my job. I also take major risks as well. That doesn't mean this is the correct choice for everyone. If a subordinate chooses to do the same and fails, that was their decision. It really is that simple. I'm not responsible for someone else's weak will. It's a flawed position. Charles Barkley was right, he's not a role model.

As for steroids, they don't instantly make a great athlete. They will only assist in enhancing existing talent. I find that argument rather empty. Barry Bonds was a great power hitter in his early years, for example.

Exactly. Now apply the same principle to football players.

They should allow the cars to fly a bit as well with some wings. I mean after all anything you do to your body is your business, or in this case your car's business. NO LIMITZ!

Bonds was a decent power hitter, no where near great he hit more than 40 HR's once in the first

10 years of his career, that's below avg to avg HR power, amazingly he starts to avg 46 - 55 HR's

after that, along with this hat size and feet growing 2 sizes, yep all natural steroids didn't help

him there.


Draconi

and we all know that your feet and head grow 2 sizes naturally after age 35

Draconi

Trying to compare race cars to football players just doesn't work, the drivers are the human component, they're using a machine to compete.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

From: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nascar-safety4.htm

Restrictor Plates
One part of a NASCAR car engine that was implemented for safety reasons is now being pointed at as the cause for many of the multi-car accidents during races. Restrictor plates are used at NASCAR's super-speedways, including Daytona and Talladega, to slow cars down. The New Hampshire International Speedway was recently added to that short list of restrictor-plate tracks following the deaths of Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin on that track within months of each other.

A restrictor plate is a square aluminum plate that has four holes drilled into it. Hole size is determined by NASCAR and varies between 0.875 inches and 1 inch (2.2 to 2.5 cm). Restrictor plates are placed between the carburetor and the intake manifold to reduce the flow of air and fuel into the engine's combustion chamber, thus reducing horsepower and speed.

Restrictor plates were implemented in 1988 following Bobby Allison's crash into a retaining fence at 210 mph (338 kph), which endangered hundreds of fans. Also in 1987, Bill Elliott set the track record by running a lap around the track at 213 mph (343 kph). Some believe that if restrictor plates weren't used, NASCAR cars could race on super-speedways at speeds in excess of 225 mph (362 kph) due to the improved aerodynamics of the cars over the past decade.

While NASCAR officials contend that restrictor plates are needed to prevent high-speed crashes like Allison's, many drivers complain that restrictor plates are the cause of multi-car accidents. Restrictor plates reduce speed by about 10 mph, leaving the field of more than 40 cars bunched tightly as they race around the track at 190 mph. If one of these cars crashes, it usually causes several other cars to crash along with it.

Fuck yeah! And jet engines, and rockets!

but without the restrictor plates, wouldn't they all just be bunched up at 238 miles per hour?

I don't know anything about racing - never watched it.

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This is a perfect comparison as steroids allow Barry Bonds to catch a pitch and throw it over the fence for great victory. Try again please, sir.

No, without restrictor plates packs of cars could significantly pull away. Instead of not having enough power to travel faster then what they do. As best as I can remember those engines generate around 800 horsepower. The cars having their power cut means no one has the power to pull away from anyone else.

There are only a few races every year where restrictor plates are used, the tracks keep the cars limited for all the rest of the year. You simply don't have enough room or track slope/grip to get to 200 mph on a lot of tracks. The super speedways are built in such a way that they can reach those speeds.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

Steroids are a game of keeping up with the Joneses. If the other guys you are competing against use them, you need to use them to maintain the same balance you would have in a steroid free enviroment. No matter what your talent level is, the disparity between your performance as a non-steroid user and a steroid user in professional sports will slant in favor of the user. If you were already struggling, now you will be even further behind, and if you are a super talent, the disparity between you and users will be diminished. Allowing athletes to decide for themselves whether they want to use steroids effectively forces all athletes to use them, just to maintain the status quo. It is much more logical to ban them entirely and maintain the status quo without any of the heath issues even involved.