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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:09 AM 
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And people who drink all the time are better workers than the casual pot smoker?

I dunno, I guess I'm biased, because in my line of work, some of the best people i've met in my industry smoke weed on a semi-regular basis and still do things that amaze the shit out of me.

I've already acknowledged that some jobs lend themselves better to recreational substance use than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:29 AM 
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Quote:
The problem with that is that there IS a difference between smoking pot and drinking besides the legal aspect. You can tell when someone has smoked a lot in their life as they are a dumbed down version of their former selves.


Umm... where's the difference? Dumbed down versions of their former selves sounds strikingly similar to a couple former alcoholics I know.

I agree the two are not the same, but in terms of the consequences that would affect job performance they are pretty similar. Drink a lot or smoke enough pot, and you're fucked. Do it in moderation, and you're ok in either case.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:32 AM 
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I have never been a fan of the "It's ok to do because I can compare it to something just as bad" defense. Even if I did (which I don't) agree to your point that drinking is as much of a problem on the job site, how would that help your cause. If you ever did manage to prove that point, the outcome would be tougher rules on drinkers, not more lax rules on pot smoking.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:36 AM 
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Venen wrote:
Quote:
The problem with that is that there IS a difference between smoking pot and drinking besides the legal aspect. You can tell when someone has smoked a lot in their life as they are a dumbed down version of their former selves.


Umm... where's the difference? Dumbed down versions of their former selves sounds strikingly similar to a couple former alcoholics I know.

I agree the two are not the same, but in terms of the consequences that would affect job performance they are pretty similar. Drink a lot or smoke enough pot, and you're fucked. Do it in moderation, and you're ok in either case.


I don't know how else to say there is a difference. Heavy drinkers are not as mentally affected as heavy pot smokers. Where does the real brain damage begin? I don't know, I'm not a doctor, I can just tell you the effects I see. They are not equivilant. Please don't bother recalling the one guy you know who used to be a rocket scientist but drank his brain away. Explain it to me when you've seen hundreds of cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:57 AM 
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They may not be mentally affected, but they for damn sure are physically affected.

Also, your example of "potheads are stupid" is still anecdotal, much as any evidence we can bring forward about alcoholics.

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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:11 AM 
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Quote:
I don't know how else to say there is a difference. Heavy drinkers are not as mentally affected as heavy pot smokers. Where does the real brain damage begin? I don't know, I'm not a doctor, I can just tell you the effects I see. They are not equivilant. Please don't bother recalling the one guy you know who used to be a rocket scientist but drank his brain away. Explain it to me when you've seen hundreds of cases.


Well, obviously I'm not making any solid claims with my data there =) All I'm saying is that based on what I've heard and seen(particularly among diehard alcoholics) they are left with some mental aftereffects. Whether they are all as severe as I have seen, up for discussion. The same goes for you though. If your claims are based on more than happenstance encounters and the odd TV report here and there and you're making a claim, then we need to see something that supports that.

But the bottom line here is when comparing the two, DOES such a claim in difference warrant keeping one off of the job over the other? I think it's fair to say that MOST substance addictions will have some sort of harmful mental aftereffect, the severity will obviously differ. Are we going to look at each case and ask the person how long they used pot or how many years they drank to determine whether or not they get the job?

I think if you're going to have one over the other based on this reasoning that one has more severe effects over the other, some statistics indicating such would be appropriate. Until such a point where one can provide thorough evidence indicating such, I think it's a bit hasty to suggest one person is more capable than the other working even if they do their habit in moderation responsibly.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:24 AM 
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Quote:
Heavy drinkers are not as mentally affected as heavy pot smokers.

I have done more than my fair share of both. I could work high - I could not work drunk. I could work while tripping balls - but could not work drunk.

Of course if I were really, really high or drunk I couldn't work.

Guys in my old unit in the Army worked high all the time - like every day. Driving Tanks, Shooting rifles, or just standing guard duty, we/they did it high all the time. Rarely did we come to work drunk unless we were still drunk from the night before. But guys would light up in the field and function fine.

I can tell you this though, i would rather be locked away in a room with a raging pot head than a raging drunk and I would feel better knowing that a pothead was driving than somebody that was drunk.

potsmokers have more of a laid back personality - it can be perceived as though they are stupid - even though they are wicked smart - and thats not just when they are smoking. I know my personality changed a lot when I quit smoking pot. Course, I didn't have nearly as many "friends" after I quit - maybe that helped change it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:26 AM 
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WebMD link
Quote:
Heavy Marijuana Use Doesn't Damage Brain
Analysis of Studies Finds Little Effect From Long-Term Use
By Sid Kirchheimer
WebMD Medical NewsJuly 1, 2003 -- Long-term and even daily marijuana use doesn't appear to cause permanent brain damage, adding to evidence that it can be a safe and effective treatment for a wide range of diseases, say researchers.

The researchers found only a "very small" impairment in memory and learning among long-term marijuana users. Otherwise, scores on thinking tests were similar to those who don't smoke marijuana, according to a new analysis of 15 previous studies.

In those studies, some 700 regular marijuana users were compared with 484 non-users on various aspects of brain function -- including reaction time, language and motor skills, reasoning ability, memory, and the ability to learn new information.

Surprising Finding

"We were somewhat surprised by our finding, especially since there's been a controversy for some years on whether long-term cannabis use causes brain damage," says lead researcher and psychiatrist Igor Grant, MD.

"I suppose we expected to see some differences in people who were heavy users, but in fact the differences were very minimal."

The marijuana users in those 15 studies -- which lasted between three months to more than 13 years -- had smoked marijuana several times a week or month or daily. Still, researchers say impairments were less than what is typically found from using alcohol or other drugs.

"All study participants were adults," says Grant, professor of psychiatry and director of the Center for Medicinal Cannabis Research Center at the University of California, San Diego School of Medicine.

"However, there might be a different set of circumstances to a 12-year-old whose nervous system is still developing."


About.com link with other links
Quote:
Brain Damage and Alcohol Consumption
Brain damage is a common and potentially severe consequence of long-term, heavy alcohol consumption. Even mild-to-moderate drinking can adversely affect cognitive functioning.

NIAAA link
Quote:
ALCOHOL’S DAMAGING EFFECTS ON THE BRAIN
Difficulty walking, blurred vision, slurred speech, slowed reaction times, impaired memory: Clearly, alcohol affects the brain. Some of these impairments are detectable after only one or two drinks and quickly resolve when drinking stops. On the other hand, a person who drinks heavily over a long period of time may have brain deficits that persist well after he or she achieves sobriety. Exactly how alcohol affects the brain and the likelihood of reversing the impact of heavy drinking on the brain remain hot topics in alcohol research today.


CannabisCulture link
Quote:
Marijuana protects your brain by Dana Larsen (01 Jan, 1999)

Studies reveal that marijuana protects against brain damage from stroke, heart attacks, and nerve gas.

The US National Institute of Health has found that chemicals in cannabis can reduce the extent of damage during a stroke, at least in rats.

Experiments with rat nerve cells, and then with actual rats, suggest that THC and cannabidiol, both compounds found in marijuana, can protect cells by acting as antioxidants, and could be useful in the treatment and prevention of stroke, heart attacks, and neurodegenerative diseases.

Researchers are investigating how cannabidiol and other antioxidants can reduce the severity of damage from "ischaemic strokes", in which blood vessels in the brain become blocked.

During ischaemic strokes, which make up 80% of all strokes, free radicals are released into the bloodstream. These harmful molecules are believed to cause stroke damage, such as paralysis and loss of speech and vision. Cannabidiol has potent anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, so it can neutralize free radicals and limit their damage.

Meanwhile, an Israeli pharmaceutical company called Pharmos is conducting human clinical trials using a synthetic, injectable version of cannabidiol, which they have dubbed Dexanabinol.

Dexanabinol's creator is Professor Raphael Mechoulam of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who discovered THC in 1964, and has been studying cannabis for over thirty years.

Dr William Beaver, who chaired a panel assembled last year by the US National Institute of Health to review the medical uses of marijuana, called Dexanabinol "the most medically significant use ever made of marijuana."

The human clinical tests began in 1996 with 67 patients in Israel's neurotrauma centres. About 1000 patients will be involved in the next phase, at a cost of $15 million over two years. According to US medical investment analysts, Dexanabinol showed no serious side effects when administered to healthy volunteers.

Aside from the five million people worldwide who suffer a stroke or head trauma each year, there's another huge market for Dexanabinol, the US Army. US military tests on rats have shown that those exposed to Dexanabinol were 70% less likely to suffer epileptic seizures or brain damage after being exposed to sarin and other nerve gases. Dexanabinol is effective as both a preventative measure and as an antidote.

The military's greatest concern seems to be whether Dexanabinol possesses the same psychoactive and enlightening properties as THC and some other cannabinoids. Although THC and cannabidiol both provided equal defense against cell damage, cannabidiol doesn't have significant psychoactive effects.

Of course, the obvious corollary to this is that if synthetic Dexanabinol can prevent brain damage, then organic marijuana does so as well. So the next time grandpa has a stroke, try and get him to take a few bong-hits before the ambulance arrives. Better yet, give him a hash brownie each evening before he has that stroke. You might just save his life.


WebMD link
Quote:
Cannabis Relieves Multiple Sclerosis Pain
Painkiller May Also Provide Better Mental Health With Few Side Effects
By Jeanie Lerche Davis
WebMD Medical NewsJuly 15, 2004 -- An extract from cannabis can reduce pain from multiple sclerosis, a new study shows.

This new finding adds to growing evidence of the painkilling potential of cannabis. Animal research has shown that cannabinoids can decrease pain sensation caused by inflammation, damaged nerves, and cancer. Also, studies have pointed to cannabinoids as helping control pain from muscle spasticity -- muscle stiffness and limb rigidity -- in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS).

There are many different types of pain that a person with multiple sclerosis sufferers. The list includes pain caused by plaque lesions seen in the brains of people with multiple sclerosis called central pain. These lesions may cause pain by altering chemicals which transmit pain signals or they may cause changes in the way signals are transmitted to pain regions in the brain.

Can cannabis relieve central pain in multiple sclerosis patients with lesions? This is the first study examining that question -- and it shows a "modest but relevant" reduction in pain, writes researcher Kristina B. Svendsen, MD, with the Danish Pain Research Center and department of neurology at Aarhus University Hospital in Denmark. Her study appears in this week's issue of the British Medical Journal.


I guess I'm one of the "dumbed down version of their former selves" you're referring to, since I've smoked pot off and on since age 15. That's 35 years, with one period of 8 years abstinence, and greatly reduced, occasional use the past 6 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:53 AM 
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Good stats, money quote here:

Quote:
"I suppose we expected to see some differences in people who were heavy users, but in fact the differences were very minimal."

The marijuana users in those 15 studies -- which lasted between three months to more than 13 years -- had smoked marijuana several times a week or month or daily. Still, researchers say impairments were less than what is typically found from using alcohol or other drugs.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:53 AM 
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I don't think I can have a rational discussion about this topic (here) without it sounding like I'm making personal attacks, which was not my intention.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:06 AM 
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Quote:
I don't think I can have a rational discussion about this topic (here) without it sounding like I'm making personal attacks, which was not my intention.


Seemed clear to me that you weren't trying to insult, I doubt Sijandi took that personally he was just making his point about long-term effects from his experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:52 AM 
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You hit the nail on the head there, Venen. I can't apply my experience to other people, but I don't put myself in the position of telling other people whether to drink or smoke pot either. From my own personal experience, I have learned not to drink at all. It's been 12 years since I had a drink, and I don't regret the decision one bit. It's been about a month or so since I had anything to smoke, I bought some for my birthday in May. If I had some now, I'd smoke some. Since I can't grow my own under my present circumstances, I choose to abstain most of the time. My intellectual capacity has not been greatly affected by smoking through the years, but I can state for a fact that my emotional state is another matter. I'm much easier to get along with when I'm smoking, and feel better than I ever have on any anti-depressants. Since the fibromyalgia has made a more significant impact on my physical condition, I'm much more likely to feel up to getting up and doing something when I have the right herb than when I don't. The few times I have accepted prescription drugs to deal with the fibro, I don't want to do anything - period. The physical side effects aren't very nice either.

One of the main points I keep trying to make is that regardless whether marijuana is ever legalized or decriminalized by the federal government, it is ridiculous to retain it on the Schedule 1 listing of controlled substances. Even cocaine can be legally prescribed in the US, and heroin in the UK.
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/cocaine.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin
Quote:
Internationally, heroin is controlled under Schedules I and IV of the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs.[3] It is illegal to manufacture, possess, or sell heroin in the United States and the UK, however, under the name diamorphine, heroin is a legal prescription drug in the United Kingdom.


The following is indicative of just how ignorant, or deliberately misleading, the federal government continues to be about marijuana.
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/dru ... index.html
Quote:
Marijuana is a green, brown, or gray mixture of dried, shredded leaves, stems, seeds, and flowers of the hemp plant (Cannabis sativa). Cannabis is a term that refers to marijuana and other drugs made from the same plant. Other forms of cannabis include sinsemilla, hashish, and hash oil. All forms of cannabis are mind-altering (psychoactive) drugs.
(bold added)
Sensimilla is simply a female plant which has not been pollinated. Hashish is the resin produced by the plant, what gives it the "sugar-coated" crystallized appearance when allowed to mature without pollination. Hash oil is a distilled version of that resin.

Quote:
Marijuana is a Schedule I substance under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). Schedule I drugs are classified as having a high potential for abuse, no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.26


Obviously, many people in this country disagree with the statement above, from the same page. Can any rational, reasonably intelligent person honestly claim that cocaine and heroin have lower potential for abuse than marijuana? Even alcohol has higher abuse and dependency risk factors than marijuana. Detox'ing from alcohol carries a serious risk of death if the level of alcohol intake is high enough. The worst I've ever seen anyone go through when quitting smoking pot is irritability. Even cigarettes are harder to quit than marijuana.

I can think of a lot better ways to spend federal dollars than demonizing and criminalizing marijuana smokers. Decriminalization, at least, would make a significant impact in many areas.


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 Post subject: Re: Profit motive?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:02 PM 
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I didn't find pot to be addictive at all. I quit with no problem. Cigarettes on the other hand...... yeesh. I quit, but I had to use the patch and it was still hard. - and still is hard even to this day not to start again.


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