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 Post subject: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:57 PM 
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This is a rant that's been brewing in my mind for awhile now. As most of you know, I'm an atheist. To clarify further, since atheism has been a topic du jour lately, I don't believe in any god/s. That's not to say that I say 'There is no god', because that would require me to prove it. Short and sweet, I feel about all deities the same way you feel about the ones you don't believe in. I just include all of them. Or even better, I feel about deities the same way you feel about the Easter bunny, except I think in many cases false beliefs are dangerous.

ANYHOO...to my bitching. It deals with Christianity because that's the predominate belief in our culture. Not all Christians believe the same things, some don't even believe in a hell. Most do though. Some believe Hell is merely the abscence of God. I'd say most believe it's a negative place of torment.

What baffles me, truly baffles me, are the people who can say (gleefully) "Soandso is going to burn in hell". They seem to take pleasure in this concept. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the desire for the books to somehow be balanced towards fairness, especially since they often aren't in reality. I think it's a common human desire that people who do bad or evil things somehow get their comeuppance, and are forced to pay for those acts in some manner.

However, if your concept of Hell is people being set on fire for all eternity, this is pretty sick. I'd say there's probably a very small number of human beings who've ever lived who can even come close to meriting that.

On fire. Forever. If we assume purely for the sake of argument (since it's debatable) that say, Hitler was the worst human being that ever lived, and every crime committed, every atrocity could be laid directly at that man's feet (even if we go with 'only' the Holocaust, it's overwhelming)...does it merit being on fire for all eternity?


I don't know. It is after all, only a matter of opinion, there's really no answer other than personal opinion there.

Yet if we can somehow say 'yes' that that individual's acts are so henious, so atrocious that it merits the worst punishment the human mind can conjure (and we're pretty good at coming up with creatively awful ways to torture each other)...what about everyone else?

I've heard people who are otherwise seemingly decent people, people who would state that they are 'good Christians' take glee at pronouncing eternal damnation for anyone who seems to hold an alternative viewpoint. It wasn't that long ago that I listened in utter horror as someone I know (who does not know my beliefs) claim that someone who had done me the most minor of wrongs would pay for it by going to Hell. Later in the same conversation they spoke of a young woman (whom I don't know) who seemed to be a rather decent person, but in her past had done something which was against their beliefs. And again came the announcement that she'd discover her wrongs while she was burning in hell.

This was all said with the good humor one might display when their favorite sports team did something well. It was said with happiness, pride and utter conviction.

This isn't about religion bashing. There are actually good things, and good concepts in most religions. I don't subscribe to the beliefs of some atheists that all religion is absolutely 'evil', or that it is the root of all evil, as Dawkins has postulated. I think if religion somehow didn't exist among our species, we'd have just as many wars, and just as many problems. You can't lay it at the feet of religion, it's merely one of many reasons our species harms each other. And if we point to the harm you must also point to the good done in the same name as well. (Though conversely I also believe that most good things would also continue in the absence of religion *shrug*).

It's just hard to grasp that people who claim they believe in hell as a place of absolute horrific eternal torture...without reprive...could take any type of sick pleasure in hoping or believing certain people would be forced to suffer it. Some people only seem to take delight in the idea that they're going to 'heaven' because other people won't be.

Again, this is hardly all Christians. I wouldn't go so far as to even suggest most. But it's something I've heard bantered about in an ashamedly casual fashion. It's not just people making mindless quips, I understand that too. I say 'oh god' even though I don't believe in one, simply from habit. There are people that say they hope there's a hell, not because they're delighting in the idea of someone being on fire forever, but because of the injustice they see, and the hope that the books will balance somewhere/sometime. I'm not speaking of those things.

I'm speaking of the very specific statements I've heard time and again about people going to hell, and the happiness that thought brings to some people.

The only additional thought I wanted to add, is beyond the fact that one cannot logically have both a completely loving and forgiving deity and a hell...is simply this: If you really believe that there's a deity that is all powerful, all knowing, yadda yadda, as is generally believed of the Christian diety, who can also condemn people to burn on fire...forever...simply for not worshipping it properly, how can one choose to follow such a thing? I don't believe it, so it's moot for me. However if I did, there are only two possible choices for me:

1) To refuse, because it is absolutely wrong.
2) To follow only because I don't want to be on fire forever, even though it's absolutely wrong.

I'm just curious what others think of it. And of those of you who are Christians, do you believe in hell and if so, what is it in your belief? And how do you reconcile it's existence with your other beliefs?

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:14 PM 
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Quote:
However, if your concept of Hell is people being set on fire for all eternity, this is pretty sick. I'd say there's probably a very small number of human beings who've ever lived who can even come close to meriting that.


I think it's quite simple, actually. The vast majority of people to subscribe to a religious belief don't actually take it seriously. When they say "Burn in Hell" they're not being literal because deep down inside they don't *really* believe there's a pit of fire that people get tossed into.

This applies to a lot of other things, really. I'd wager to say that for as many as 95% of Christians, the religion is nothing more than a club to them. Or at most a form of a Tony Robbins motivational speech.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:26 PM 
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On fire. Forever. If we assume purely for the sake of argument (since it's debatable) that say, Hitler was the worst human being that ever lived, and every crime committed, every atrocity could be laid directly at that man's feet (even if we go with 'only' the Holocaust, it's overwhelming)...does it merit being on fire for all eternity?


Say people do believe Hitler is the #1 candidate for the fires of hell. Would that be the minimum requirement for the eternal burning, or the maximum? What I'm trying to say is (and it pretty much seems to be your point on the rant), what warrants going to hell? Stepping on an ant consciously? Killing a bunny? Not marrying? People who think they're righteous therefore they're going to heaven?

Heh, good rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:13 PM 
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Some Christian denominations believe that being thrown into the fire consumes whatever part of us exists in the afterlife. Quite a few ancient religions, and iirc Judaism as well, took the bent that those who do not ascend to heaven simply cease to exist at all.

If there is a hell, I'd contend that it's hellish because of the people that do/will inhabit it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:33 PM 
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My personal view of hell is strange, but I'll try to explain it.

Imagine a cosmic tally of all the good things you've done, along with all the bad things.

If, when you die, the good far outweighs the bad, you get a pass on the bad things and avoid Hell, to go to your own personal Heaven. Call this VIP access if you will.

If the good and the bad are equal, you have to sit in the cosmic waiting area. This is akin to having to wait in line for your favorite club or restaurant.

If the bad outweighs the good, then you have to spend some time in Hell to get the bad out of your soul, at which point you can go to the waiting room. If your soul is completely consumed by evil, then your soul is completely burned away and you simply cease to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:35 PM 
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As a Christian it is not my job to determine who should go to Heaven or Hell. As it is written "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." I take that to mean I am not to pass judgement on another or how they live. I am to live my life as I see fit. I am to try to be an example of how I live to others as a way to Christ. I do not try to be overt in my Christian beliefs, (in here is an exception) but I try to treat everyone as I wish to be treated, learing from their experiences and sharing mine - if asked.

I do not agree with ANYONE that says "you are going to hell if you do/don't do XXX." They are not the authority that can or should say that. Those that do are putting themselves above a fellow man - which we should not do.

I believe that most all religions are a different translation of the same master book. My savior is probably someone else's savior, we just have a different name for him. I believe that this religion is good at its core - that we are to treat others with respect and not harm another. If a person is a devout follower of their religion then they shall be rewarded. I can not honestly say that one religion is the ONLY way to Heaven and I have no desire to be with anyone that claims that their way is the only way.

Do I believe in hell, eternal damnation, burning in flames and Satan? Yes. Hell is the realm of Satan who was an angel of God. He clashed with God and was sent from Heaven, banished into Hell. Hell is the absence of God, God has no dominion over what happens in Hell. Are there people who's eternal life are bound to such a place? I believe that the truely evil are sent to hell. Who is evil? I can't give an exact definition, but those that do great harm to others and those around him seem to be in line with that evil. Is Hell punishment? I don't look at it like "if you DO this or DON'T do that you will go to HELL!" I believe that if I live as an example then I will be rewarded in the afterlife. Am I going to Heaven or Hell? I don't know. I would like to think that I have lived and will continue to live a life that will reward me with eternal paradise. I don't let fear of where my eternal soul will rest affect my daily actions, I have set my course and I try to deal with the waters that are set before me the best that I can. I believe that there will be a day of judgement that I will have to answer for the things that I have done and will do wrong. I may not first go to Heaven. I don't think that I have lead a life that would leave me ineternal damnation. I am not Catholic, but I do understand the state of judgement that one my be in before they enter or banished from Heaven.

Tarot, as for you being athiest, I don't have a single issue with it. You have chosen the path that you want to take and I have chosen mine. You may be right, there might not be an all powerful God but I believe that there is. Regardless if there is or isn't a God, I will still try to live my life as a good person. I may not be like "most Christians" with the way I believe. I just wish more were like me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:59 PM 
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Bigteeth wrote:
Quote:
On fire. Forever. If we assume purely for the sake of argument (since it's debatable) that say, Hitler was the worst human being that ever lived, and every crime committed, every atrocity could be laid directly at that man's feet (even if we go with 'only' the Holocaust, it's overwhelming)...does it merit being on fire for all eternity?


Say people do believe Hitler is the #1 candidate for the fires of hell. Would that be the minimum requirement for the eternal burning, or the maximum? What I'm trying to say is (and it pretty much seems to be your point on the rant), what warrants going to hell? Stepping on an ant consciously? Killing a bunny? Not marrying? People who think they're righteous therefore they're going to heaven?

Heh, good rant.


First, you'd have to define what hell is. While most religions speak specifically on it (Catholism is very specific about it) many practioners don't hold that belief. A good friend of mine who is a Carmelite nun did not believe hell was a place of physical torment. She believes that hell is the absence of god, and it's eternal because those people refuse god. Which makes it a horrible place, and even worse it's their own choice. They could leave by accepting god, but because they never will, it's eternal.

Her belief is not the belief of the religion she devoted her life to. And that's interesting to note. I think it's fair to say that most Christian religions view Hell as a place of torture. I don't know what the majority of Christians would say about it, other than various polls over the last 50 years vary on the % of Christians that even believe in Satan as a specific entity. (Yet the same Christians polled always poll much higher in the belief of angels as specific entities, which is ironic to me anyway).

So first we have to define what hell is. We assume for the sake of argument that in Christianity it's a place of torture. That's the most commonly held religious belief, but certainly not one shared by all adherants.

Second, we have to define what causes someone to go to hell. This also varies from religion to religion. In Catholism again, it's very specific. If you die with a mortal sin, regardless of the good works you've done, you go to hell.

In other words, Mother Theresa could be burning in hell, despite everything she did in her life (by Catholic belief) if before she died she committed a mortal sin which wasn't resolved with a 'good' confession. Or absolved by a priest in last rites. What is a mortal sin? It's a sin committed with full knowledge of it being wrong, with full awareness that you're doing it and you shouldn't be doing it. Slipping up and saying, "God damn it" is a sin but not a mortal sin if you didn't think about it. If Mother Theresa grabbed someone's drink and took a sip without really thinking about it being 'theft', not a mortal sin (just a minor one called a venial sin). If she thought about it and did it anyway? Mortal sin and she burns in hell.

So Mother Theresa could be toasting in hell (per Catholic beliefs) if she took something without asking intentionally. That merits being on fire for all eternity. Disrepectful to your parents? Sorry you're going to burn. Took that desert when you knew you shouldn't? Gluttony, you burn. Office supply thefts will merit you a trip to the firey pit.

Catholism is hardly all of Christianity though. When you get into groups that talk about being "saved" then you run into two schools of thought:

1) Being "saved" (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior) merits a trip to heaven. If you do not do this, and had opportunity to (in other words you knew about Jesus and didn't follow him) you burn. Anyone who accepts him is saved. Whatever you do in life, doesn't matter.

This affords a good person who is not a Christian, who devote their lives to being a really good person by universal standards a one way ticket to being on fire forever. Someone like Hitler goes to heaven, if in that bunker he accepts Jesus.

2) Good works count.

This is an extremely minority belief in Christian religions that have 'born again' or 'saved' as part of their beliefs. Some believe that the good you do does count, just as the evil you do counts. You can do bad things but if you're sorry and ask god directly to forgive (or in some churches, publically) then god forgives if you're sorry and want to change. It's identical to Catholic confession, except there's no middle man, and no penance. A truly good person who lacked belief gets to go to heaven. Truly evil people regardless of belief go to Hell.

This is pretty much the concept of ultimate fairness, and is by and large individual belief rather than dogmatic to most religions. A good person is rewarded (though not as rewarded as True Believers, per Jesus's speech to Thomas), bad people get what's coming to them, and God (like the Shadow) sees into the hearts of men.

Of course this belief has a major flaw. When we (all of us) do something wrong, one of two things happens (always):

A) we justify it. We come up with reasoning (almost always internal) on why we were justified in acting wrongly. "They were an asshole". "They had it coming". "They wouldn't have helped ME out". Whatever. We come up with ways to explain either why we were 'justified' in doing something wrong, or why what we did wasn't really wrong. Or an ends justifies the means spiel. An example of that might be "Sure it's wrong to cheat in chemistry, but I'm a history major and the class is too difficult. It's a required course otherwise I wouldn't even take it. The teacher is totally unfair in his expectations. I just need to pass, I'll never use it, it doesn't matter to me, then I can finish my history degree and go on to do what I want in that field". Cheating is wrong, they can't get around that. But they can justify it, and the ends (getting it out of the way, and it doesn't matter otherwise) justifies the means (cheating).

B) We claim it's not wrong in this specific instance. This usually requires substantial redefining. It's seen time and again in history. Man can justify doing the unthinkable to his fellow man, if he makes them less than a man. Sure it's wrong to enslave people, I would never be a slave, I would never submit...therefore people who do submit are less than men. It would be better to die than to wear a chain. Romans used this reasoning constantly in enslaving captured peoples. Strong over weak. In more recent history, Americans justified it by claiming that the 'Negro' was sub-human. Some even went so far as to claim it was better for them to be slaves, because then they had a chance at religion and a 'better' life. Better being of course, defined by the slavers.

If we don't do those two things, and instead admit the wrong, we repent of it. Sometimes (maybe often) people are forced by situation to admit a wrong and feign repenting of it, but in reality internally it's either A or B. They're not sorry, they're sorry they got caught. They'll repent because it's easier. But really, they believe A or B inside.

I forget who said it, but someone once said, "No man is ever a villian in their own eyes". And that's true. Hell is for other people. Even those who think they're going to go there are either falsely defiant (I don't care, I'll burn before I submit) either with or without belief, but they don't *really* think that it's going to happen. Start burning someone and they'll pretty much do whatever you want. :p Or it's a form of repenting, "I'm so bad I deserve the worst punishments" because it's a way to relieve guilt. Punish and get it over with so I don't have to continue to feel so shitty. Again, not really groking the whole 'on fire forever' thing.

So essentially we're back to:

A majority of Christian religions preach that Hell is a very real place in the afterlife where people will face torture for eternity, without any hope of reprieve.

and

A majority of Christian religions preach that you go to Hell for extremely silly reasons. An example (again from Catholism, it's easiest for me as I was raised Catholic) back when you couldn't eat meat on Fridays if you followed their teachings you could burn in hell for simply eating a hot dog.

:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:46 PM 
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tarot your sig is a bitch to read on light skinned themes :p

I don't get the wishing people to burn in hell either, but the term "Christian" is rather a blanket term that covers all sorts of varied beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 PM 
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I've read some theologians who postulate hell as only eternal because people within it choose to stay forever. In other words, their denial of an existence of a God that wishes to save them is so complete and their pride so total that they cannot admit that they are wrong. Their refusal to accept an alternative that includes a condemns them to eternity in hell, with God watching and ready to pull 'em out if they change their minds.

I suppose it's an attempt to rectify the "compassionate God vs. horrible hell" difficulties by putting the responsibility for being in this "hell" on the shoulders of the people who are within it. I also think this kind of thinking tends to accompany beliefs of hell being a separation from God rather than a literal burning lake of fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:43 PM 
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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:01 AM 
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Caladaar wrote:
Richard Dawkins wrote:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.


We're both paraphrasing Stephen Henry Roberts, but it's not exactly a unique idea. I actually discovered Roberts quote after coming up with the idea myself. Not that I grant myself a lot of credit for it, it seems a very natural conclusion when one looks at the situation from an atheistic perspective.

I always had a great interest as a child in Roman/Greek mythology, and then later the mythologies of other cultures. It wasn't exactly a huge intellectual leap to see the glaring similarities. The only real difference was those things were treated as untrue (and as quaint backwards beliefs, how could people believe such things once upon a time, how silly!) and modern myth embraced as 'true' (even when just as backwards, silly, etc. I mean c'mon...virgin birth? How can anyone think Leto and the Swan is ridiculous and yet embrace virgin birth?!)

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:09 AM 
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Blah, hit submit too soon..

Anyways:
I'm an Agnostic/Atheist, whatever you want to call me.
I don't believe in a god/s, because it cannot be proven true or false.

I also think that organized religion is the worst idea that humanity ever created.

Religion is not the root of all 'evil', as 'evil' acts would exist without it.

There are no absolutes, no good and evil, no black or white.
Everything is grey.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:12 AM 
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I always found it interesting that significantly more people believe in Hell than they do in Heaven. There was a study done once. I should see if I can dig it up.

Just always struck me as important that more people can fundamentally believe in eternal punishment than they can eternal bliss.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:23 AM 
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rugen wrote:
Just always struck me as important that more people can fundamentally believe in eternal punishment than they can eternal bliss.

Humans are strange creatures.
I read this article once about a study that showed that people would rather spend money to prevent someone else from getting as much as themselves, than having an equal amount given to everyone.
However, there have been other studies that show that humans are naturally empathetic, and work to improve the group as a whole.
Its no wonder we kill each other so easily when we're so schizophrenic.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:37 AM 
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I was raised Christian. Not only Christian, but my church taught that only a strict literal view of the Bible was acceptable. Therefore, the Earth was created in six days and so on. This caused me a lot of problems in school science classes as I would argue against evolution and basically would not listen to ANYBODY who tried to convince me that the evidence was there. I told them it was all a hoax, or it was misunderstood, or that people were just plain wrong. I never said what I've heard others say which is: God put the bones in the ground to test our faith. If that's the case, God could be telling us about heaven just to watch the commotion and laugh at us.

In the past few years, I have been reading classic literature and philosophy books. This has really changed a lot of the way I view the world. Also, I took a good, long look at the evidence and concluded the evolution has to be as correct as we can call something. Could there be a guiding hand behind it as the Intelligent Design people claim? I suppose, but that doesn't equal creation in six days. Since this would make Genesis not work for me because I can't make evolution work with Adam and Eve and the fall, that makes the Bible suspect to me.

I always felt that if something in the Bible is false, you can't trust it. It would be like talking to someone you know lies and believing every single word they say on a subject without questioning it at all. That being said, does the Bible hold some really good moral philosophy? I don't think you'd find many who would disagree. But that doesn't make it something on which to base your entire existence.

To get to the original topic, Hell is a concept to dissuade people from acting badly. It's the big spanking you know is coming if you are bad as a kid. Sure, it is eternal in the minds of people, but that doesn't mean it isn't just a big threat to act correctly. Also, it does seem rather odd for a God who professes love for all his creations to want to throw a good percentage of them into a burning lake. It isn't like he's putting them there for a timeout until they straighten up, it's eternal and painful. Ever noticed how different the Jewish God and the Christian God seem to be?

So, after years of being a devout Christian, I find myself as an agnostic. I want to believe God exists. I really want to, but I keep asking for evidence and coming up short. I know it's supposed to be faith, but I don't like blind faith.

Anyway, I've rambled on for too long and over too many topics. Everybody have fun. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:41 AM 
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Ever noticed how different the Jewish God and the Christian God seem to be?


Which is funny, because it's the same god. And a very good argument can be made that it is the same god for Muslims as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:06 AM 
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As most of you know, I'm an atheist. To clarify further, since atheism has been a topic du jour lately, I don't believe in any god/s. That's not to say that I say 'There is no god', because that would require me to prove it.
You realize that you're an agnostic, not an atheist, right? Atheist denies the existence of anything supernatural. Agnostics believe that they simply don't know what's out there, and reject all known forms of beliefs.

Second, from listening to your rants about Christianity in the past, part of me thinks that you have more of a grudge against Christianity than an intellectual/philosophical position as an Agnostic. You seem to be holding in a lot of bitterness, anger and resentment.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:10 AM 
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You seem to be holding in a lot of bitterness, anger and resentment.


There are a lot of people on this board that you could say that about, myself included, but tarot?

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:23 AM 
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I'm sticking by advanced human species created us by using a terra-forming meteor, and they've been secretly observing our progress ever since.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:35 AM 
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As most of you know, I'm an atheist. To clarify further, since atheism has been a topic du jour lately, I don't believe in any god/s. That's not to say that I say 'There is no god', because that would require me to prove it.
You realize that you're an agnostic, not an atheist, right? Atheist denies the existence of anything supernatural. Agnostics believe that they simply don't know what's out there, and reject all known forms of beliefs.

Second, from listening to your rants about Christianity in the past, part of me thinks that you have more of a grudge against Christianity than an intellectual/philosophical position as an Agnostic. You seem to be holding in a lot of bitterness, anger and resentment.


No. Atheism is the lack of belief in any gods. I really don't care what label others need to attach to it, I often clarify it simply because there are those who define atheism (including some who call themselves atheists) as the positive statement that there is no god. That there *cannot* be one. The onus of providing proof is on the claimant, always. It's impossible to prove a negative.

Are you agnostic about Zeus? I doubt you'd say so. I doubt you'd say, "Well there might be something to it..." I don't claim to "know", I simply seek evidence. There simply isn't any for a diety, other than personal conviction, etc.

As far as "you seem angry" it's amusing only because this charge is leveled against atheists constantly. I talk about Christianity because it's the dominate religion in North America...where I live. If I lived where Islam was the dominant religion I'm sure I'd be talking about that mostly.

I was raised Catholic. I didn't have a terrible experience, my experiences were by and large extremely positive ones. I've been told in debates with religious fundementalists (and religious people who are not necessarily fundementalists) that I and other atheists are "angry with god". Are you angry with Santa? Do you have a deep bitter feeling of betrayal at finding out there really wasn't a Santa? I doubt it, most people don't. Most people raised with that myth have pretty fond memories of it. However most people would also say that it would be pretty unhealthy to continue with that belief into adulthood. And no, I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy at all. So there's no need to get into 'well santa is this but Jesus is that'. ;)

I've heard that atheists say they don't believe in god because they don't want to be controlled. That we don't want to follow a moral code. All sorts of unbelievably stupid shit.

So I'll simply say, provide some evidence for what you see as "bitterness", "anger" and "resentment" at Christianity. There isn't any to be found. I do get angry at some things, such as the use of religious argument to oppress people, but that's hardly something one can lay wholesale at the feet of Christianity. Rather it belongs rather directly at the feet of groups and individuals who do such things.

I may find much of it nonsensical, or lacking logic. I just had a discussion last night with someone about the Book of Job. It surprises me to no end how many Christians (or people who call themselves such) have never actually read the bible. Many will claim to, initially, but then will say that they haven't actually read all of it. If one truly believes in a god and this single book contains what that god wants you to know...well I don't see how people don't read it and know it better than I do, as a non-believer.

Anyway, I digress. The book of Job is essentially a bet between God and Satan. Satan claims that people only follow God because he does nice things for them. God disagrees. God points out Job as the most faithful (or certainly one of the most faithful) of his followers. Satan insists that Job only loves God because life is good. If his life wasn't, he would turn against God.

Thus the bet.

God then proceeds to do extremely nasty things to Job. He kills all of Job's children. Job loses everything in the most horrific fashions. He even ends up covered in boils. Job doesn't lose his wife, who proceeds to go bonkers on him about STILL praising god when everything has turned to utter shit.

In despair, Job doesn't curse God. He questions him though. Job pulls a 'Why, oh Lord, why?!'. And God essentially tells Job to shut the fuck up. God is God and a measly lower being like Job doesn't deserve an explaination, he doesn't even have the right to question it.

And Job for all this, praises God.

Then Satan gives God a dollar. (Okay not really, I made that part up. The rest is pretty accurate, go read it).

If one believes in the bible literally, then if true, God is a dick.
If one believes biblical tales are merely stories to illustrate true points, divinely inspired, then the message is: God is a dick.

I'm not angry at God, any more than I'm 'angry' at Darth Vader. I may spend considerable time talking about Star Wars because it interests me, and religion for the same reasons, and because living in a world where people adhere to religions affects me in innumerable ways. But Darth Vader and God are both fictional characters. So even with the entire 'therefore God is a dick', isn't me being angry with God, any more than my comments about Anakin being a whiny pussy at times is me being 'angry' or 'hating' Darth Vader in anything other than the sense that one can dislike or like fiction.

And most atheists feel about religion the same way most people feel about really die hard Trekkies. It's a little weird, sometimes sad, but not necessarily a terribly evil or bad thing. It can be a waste of both money, and time...but it seems to make people a little bit happier. There comes points where that crosses the line though. Most Americans find it much easier to see that line crossed in other religious faiths, such as Islam, or Judaism...but find it far more difficult to see in their own other than in the most gross examples (such as Fred Phelps). I think it's pretty much a 'can't see the forest through the trees' issue, as well as it's hard to see the fallacies in something you like, believe is the best, and believe is really truly good and true. Though sometimes I think many people do see the cracks, but are loathe to discuss them, because it feels disloyal.

Just as some atheists are disinclined to point out things that are wrong, or that they disagree with when it comes to Richard Dawkins, or Sam Harris. They'd rather focus on the things that are right about what they say.

Me? I'm just interested in what's true. I'm not uncomfortable with saying, "I don't know" because it means I'm still looking for the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:45 AM 
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Know the thing that always struck me as the most fucked up part of the book if Job? When the bet was all over, God gave Job all sorts of newer and better stuff, including new kids, and the implication is that he was caring and loving and solved all the problems he inflicted. "Even Stevens, I was just kidding around Job!"

For being the "Ultimate Parent" that I often hear him described as, God is a pretty heartless bastard. If my daughter was ever to die, I'm not thinking I want a new model to replace her anytime soon. As much as I may cherish another child, it certainly isn't going to even the score for one that I lost because God wanted to prove a fucking point, assuming I believed that way.


On the other hand, I am an athiest, yet I also believe that organized religion serves many valuable purposes. There's good and bad in everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:05 AM 
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Sorry if this posts twice...

The really scary thing I find about religion in general is that it can provide a way for people to not care about important issues because "God will take care of it". My church, in fact, pushes that thought. I used to think that way.

This means that anything big like climate change, war, disease, poverty, or any number of issues facing the people of the world can simply be overlooked as either God's will or just another problem God will deal with. It really scares me because if God isn't there, we are in such a fragile situation and could be severely screwing up. If we FUBAR the planet in some way, we all could die. In fact, some argue we are marching down that path right now, and people can sit in their houses, watching American Idol or whatever, and not care because God is in control and He will fix everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:28 AM 
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I just thought I would point out (as someone who has read the Bible) that in the book of Job, it's Satan that does all these things to Job, not God. I'm not sure it changes your point much (since God "allows" Satan to do it), but you make it sound like God struck him down when it isn't the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:49 AM 
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Yes, Satan did do those things to him. Originally God gave Satan permission to take Job's "stuff" but not harm him. He then later allowed Satan to affect Job's person but forbid him from killing him. So instead of death, he got some nasty boils.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:10 AM 
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The bible pretty much explains in vivid detail exactly what someone must do to avoid going to Hell. I mean to say that there is one way and one way only. The caveat is that you have to actually believe what the bible says is true. If you don't, then words like Hell and Heaven and God and Jesus really should mean about as much, to you, as Santa and Easter Bunny...

As far as a bad person accepting Jesus the second before his death, then going to heaven, while a good person dies without being saved...the bible is clear on this as well:

Quote:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do


This is Ephesians 2:8,9 and it basically says you don't go to Heaven based on what you do, but what you believe in. This is how people who say "you are going to hell if..." can say this. If I know, in my heart, that you don't believe in God, then I know you don't believe in Jesus nor what he teaches. So Tarot, knowing you are an Athiest, it is not judgemental of me a single bit to say "You are going to Hell." I'm not judging you, I'm stating a fact, based on what I believe. According to what you believe, you really don't have anything to worry about, since you don't even believe there is a Hell in the first place.

The grand thing about faith is that if you have none, you can live your life worry free. If you have faith, and believe in God and the salvation he's handed you, you can also live your life worry free. The only difference is what happens in the after-life. Some people care, and some people don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:24 AM 
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Well put Sshaaz.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:27 AM 
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Actually there's a reason I say God did it. In Job, 'the Satan' is literally 'the adversery', he acts for God on the behalf of God.

It's not so much that God is merely standing inactive as Satan does these things, Satan is doing these things on the behalf of (and at the behest of) God and within the limitations provided by God. In Job he's not at all the 'Satan' concept that Christianity has today. That concept develops further down the road in the bible, and most of it is rooted in the New Testament, and more specifically in Revelations. That's where Satan develops from the role of basically God's prosecutor, to the fallen angel who is the active adversary against both God and mankind, etc.

Just as I would say in the story of Exodus God kills the first born male children, etc. Yes, an angel actually does it, but it's accurate to say (in my opinion more accurate to say) God does it.

There's a lot of interesting scholarship though on the Book of Job far beyond my simple 'God is a dick'. There's also more open to discussion there, such as 'Are bad things divine punishment' which was and has been a long standing belief in many cultures, including Christianity. In many cases, for example, a person who suffered poor health was a bad person, and this was their punishment. (To see really interesting shit in that same vein, read up on The Great Plague, and religion's response to it). And that's one of the things that gets discussed in Job, when Job's friends follow that belief, and turn against him. And then when God goes nuts on Job for even questioning him (God), he also punishes Job's former friends as well, for both daring to state God's intentions (and moreso IMO for getting it wrong).

Generally the most common 'moral' of Job that I've seen tends to be 'bad things can happen to good people for reasons we don't understand, but that somehow serve some greater good'. In otherwords (and this will sound negatively biased) you can praise God for good things, but you can't question him for bad things. It's all part of a bigger thing, and you simply can't understand and really don't deserve to.

And Job even apologizes for having asked.

Another interesting thing about Job is that God pretty much vanishes from the OT after that. He doesn't get specifically involved with individuals they way you see in Job, and the books before Job (with Moses and many others). There's also a dramatic shift in the way God is viewed in the books after Job that's tremendously different. It shifts from a personal diety very involved in the lives and actions of a specific people, to a much more distant and benevolent diety concept. Prior to that, God was extremely petty in many ways.

The most dramatic changes come in the New Testament. The change is so dramatic that most Christians, while they believe God and Jesus are the same thing/being and both the same 'god' view them very very differently in reality. More than a few scholars outside Christianity have stated that Christianity is polytheistic as a result. It's not...quite...but it's not quite monotheistic either. Other religions have similar things though, such as Hinduism and the various avatars of Vishnu (for example).

Anyway, regardless of the various other messages inherent in biblical stories, I think one gets an extremely clear concept of the character of God. It's not a nice one. That completely changes (so far as to be completely different) in the New Testament, which has radically different ideas and ideals. It changes from "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek".

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:39 AM 
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Sshaaz wrote:
The bible pretty much explains in vivid detail exactly what someone must do to avoid going to Hell. I mean to say that there is one way and one way only. [SNIP]

Quote:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do


This is Ephesians 2:8,9 and it basically says you don't go to Heaven based on what you do, but what you believe in. This is how people who say "you are going to hell if..." can say this. [SNIP]


Yet the bible also says:
Quote:
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


So apparently good works do matter. Or do they? Which is true?

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:58 AM 
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An omnipotent and omniscient god shouldn't have to let the result play out to win a bet in the first place anyway.

Satan represents the choice to act against god's will. Having free will without choice, or at least awareness of the choices available, doesn't mean that much. The knowledge of these choices is what was symbolically gained by eating the forbidden fruit. Before then Adam and Eve acted in accordance with god's will because they knew of no alternative to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:58 AM 
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Our good works don't really prove anything to God. We aren't saved by our good works but by grace. Good works are simply evidence to the world that Christ has changed us. When we are changed by Christ, we are inspired to do good works.

Ref: Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:7 and 2.11, James 2:14-26

(I feel I'm about to get the horns of the bull. Be gentle, Tarot =P)


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:25 AM 
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Quote:
5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Taken in context, this is Jesus telling the Jews that were mad at him, for working on the Sabbath (healing Lazarus) and calling himself the Son of God, that God sent him, he has the authority of Judgement. Whoever hears what Jesus teaches, and believes 'passes from death' or 'have life in the Son of God.' More toward your quoted verse, those that have died before God sent Jesus will hear his voice and the righteous will be saved, the evil won't.

The plan of Salvation is laid out for anyone out there to read/hear. Those who weren't around to hear Jesus teach, nor read what he taught in the bible, were judged on their actions. My personal beliefs on these verses is Jesus assuring his followers that those that died before he arrived won't be condemned, but judged on their own merit. I'm sure there were many during the time that all of this was occuring, that were overjoyed to know how to be with God, but wondered how their loved ones would be afforded the same opportunity.

To answer your question whether good deeds matter: Sure they do. God doesn't feel any different towards one sinner or another, he loves us all. He just hates sin. I'm sure he'd rather noone sinned, but the fact is, we do, and he knows we do. The good news is, He says He'll forgive us. Which, for a believer, is very comforting.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:28 AM 
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Tarot wrote:
No. Atheism is the lack of belief in any gods. I really don't care what label others need to attach to it, I often clarify it simply because there are those who define atheism (including some who call themselves atheists) as the positive statement that there is no god. That there *cannot* be one. The onus of providing proof is on the claimant, always. It's impossible to prove a negative.
All that text notwithstanding, I'm just going by the dictionary definition of the words.

Atheism:
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

Agnosticism:
1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

You said:

Quote:
That's not to say that I say 'There is no god', because that would require me to prove it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:36 AM 
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Regarding the main topic of discussion. I used to be a hardcore Atheist. I could debate atheism with anyone and generally do pretty well. This was mostly in my teens. In my 20s I started to ease off and became an Agnostic. Around the time of my divorce I "found God" and have been a Christian ever since.

I've done debates on religion. I'm over it. While I would love to witness to everyone here, am I going to change your mind, Tarot? I'm not going to bother in this forum, as it's just about the worst place to try to do it. I'm also no Biblical scholar, so I don't feel like debating the inconsistencies of the Bible. If you want a real debate, go research Ravi Zacharias, or any noted apologest. He can come at you from a pure philosophical standpoint using logic in a way that (hopefully) makes sense to you, and he's quite good. Starting a debate here is tantamount to criticizing vegetarians at a barbecue - no one's gonna disagree with you much. Friendly audience and all that. :)

Bottom line is this: Faith, true faith, defies logical description. I know that having sat on the "other side" for so long. And you know what? That's ok. When you have it, you'll know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:50 AM 
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Let me quickly try to explain my own understandings of religion and beliefs.

1. The Bible (Christian, Old and New Testaments) has 7 different dispensations which offer different means of God’s method of dealing with mankind. After the fall of man, 5 dispensations offer various means of reconciliation with God by following the current dispensations rules or instructions. Some of these dispensations include promise, law, and grace (might be called by other names). The final dispensation will be the reign of Christ (judgment, heaven and hell).
2. The Christian, Muslims and Jews are in fact worshiping or believing in the same God, which would be the God of Abraham in the Old Testament which also makes up a portion of the Koran.
3. There are many parallels and many differences that one can see when looking at many of the religions of the world. Trying to tackle that here would be impossible, but http://www.religioustolerance.org/ is a pretty good site for people to look at. It gives brief summaries of many beliefs and religions.
4. I've seen that many cultures throughout time have believed in some form or type of existence after physical death and the belief is some type of soul. From the Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks to Wicca or Hinduism.
5. There seems to be something within people that cause us to either believe or question these things in the first place. Argue all you want about the cause of that, it’s been a topic forever. Why does this person here believe and this other person does not? Come on, it’s pointless.

Now, I could keep going on forever and getting more specific about different religions and beliefs and even start dissecting the Bible if I wanted. But what comforts me is my sincere and unwavering belief that the only thing I do know with 100% certainty is that I don’t know. I don't get into to telling people that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right and I don't say people are in hell, it's pointless. You do and believe what you want and I’ll do the same. As long as your actions and beliefs don’t cause me to much grief or inconvenience, we won’t have any problems. (All bets are off though if I'm bored and just feel like playing devil's advocate)

So to answer Tarot on the existence of hell, well I haven’t been there myself so it’s just kind of hard to say for sure either way. Interesting thread though and I’m sure I’ll enjoy following it.

Tarot, do you believe in any type of soul or existence after death?


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:03 PM 
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I'm agnostic but I have the naive view of why is our world so shitty? I don't believe in the it's a test, or you got to have faith bullshit excuses. I don't understand a lot that goes on in this world but I know that belief in a God wouldn't help me figure it out, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:36 PM 
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Quote:
Our good works don't really prove anything to God. We aren't saved by our good works but by grace. Good works are simply evidence to the world that Christ has changed us. When we are changed by Christ, we are inspired to do good works.


This is why I always tell people that the emotion behind the action matters. It is pretty easy to hand a bum a dime and laugh as you walk away saying fuckin bum.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 2:28 PM 
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Tarot wrote:
Another interesting thing about Job is that God pretty much vanishes from the OT after that. He doesn't get specifically involved with individuals they way you see in Job, and the books before Job (with Moses and many others). There's also a dramatic shift in the way God is viewed in the books after Job that's tremendously different. It shifts from a personal diety very involved in the lives and actions of a specific people, to a much more distant and benevolent diety concept. Prior to that, God was extremely petty in many ways.


I'm not sure what you mean by "after that" in that first sentence. Do you mean chronologically, or in the order the books are presented in the Bible?

If you meant chronologically, then I would disagree with you. If Job was a real person (and most these days agree that he wasn't; that this is a story meant to make a point), he would have lived sometime around Abram's time, which is before nearly all of the written history in the Bible. David, Solomon, Saul, Abram, Egypt, Joshua, Jacob, Esau, and more all come afterwards.

If you didn't mean chronologically, and instead meant the order in which the books appear in the Bible, then I would still disagree with you. God is still very much a personal force in individual lives. Off the top of my head, after the book of Job in the OT comes:

1. Isaiah's visions from God.
2. Jeremiah's visions from God.
3. Ezekial's visions from God.
4. Daniel-- lot's of stuff here, from visions, protection in the lion's den, his friends protected from the furnace, etc.
5. Hosea, Joel, Amos, all have visions. Amos is kinda a freak :p.

Most of the rest of the "minor prophets" as they are referred to don't go into much historical or written accounts, instead preferring to record only their prophecies and poetry.

I do completely agree that the concept and viewpoint of God completely changes in the New Testament, however. Quakers (and a few other denominations) refer to that as the concept of "continuing revelation," referring to the idea that God does not change but instead our understanding of Her changes. The vindictive bitch of a God presented in the Old Testament (hell, he orders the Israelites to commit genocide!) is typical of various gods in the region at the time, and represent the dominant view that God or the gods orchestrate virtually everything in our life. If something bad happens, it's punishment, if something good it's reward, and so on... It only makes sense that writers trying to record what they see around them at the time would give God these kinds of attributes, but it doesn't make it necessarily true (or false I suppose).

This willingness to say, "parts of the Old Testament simply got it wrong" that Quakers are capable of doing is admittedly quite threatening to people who must take a literal stance on the Bible to feel comfortable with their faith.

In other subjects-- Joxur, I would be very interested in hearing more about your experience going from atheism to Christianity. You don't have to reply publicly if you don't wish, and I am not interested in picking you apart. I am simply interested because in my life I've gone exactly in the opposite direction. In my teens I was consumed by fundamentalist Christianity. The last several years, however, I've found myself moving further toward agnosticism and perhaps even atheism. I can't completely get away from my upbringing, however; I find myself instantly defensive whenever Christianity is bashed on these boards, for example.

As someone who finds himself going in the opposite direction (a bit to my dismay), I would be interested in comparing stories and seeing what I could learn from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:12 PM 
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Jateki wrote:
Tarot, do you believe in any type of soul or existence after death?


Because I slept poorly I'm just responding to this for the moment (I'll of course be posting more later, probably tomorrow :)).

No, I don't believe in any type of soul or existence after death. I have no way of knowing what happens after death. I think (and this is merely a thought, and could be wrong) that it may be similar to being under anesthesia. There's no sense of time during that, no dreaming. When you wake, you know time has passed but if like me you have a decent internal clock, you can't say how much time. So much of the brain is unconscious, that thought pretty much ceases. I expect it's a little like death. Or as some of postulated, it's a dreamless sleep of non-existence.

I wouldn't mind being wrong. I like existing, don't really want it to end in such a short period of time.

As far as NDEs (Near Death Experiences) go, since I've seen them brought up as 'evidence' of what may happen after one has died...those people haven't really died. Yes, their heart stopped, but so does a heart on a bypass machine. Their brains (obviously) didn't die. And the NDE is reproducable in other conditions (such as high speed centrafuge) without cessation of a heartbeat. All current evidence points to it being essentially a very vivid hallucination.

Anyhoo, it's impossible to know at least at this point and yet we'll all personally find out within a relatively short span of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:03 PM 
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How is it difficult to prove that there cannot be a god?

If you accept that you exist, and therefore that there is existence, then you define existence as that which you are a part of. The concept of god as a supernatural entity relies on the idea that it is possible for there to be something greater than yourself. Since you are a part of a existence, then a god must be greater than a part of existence. This would also require that the supernatural entity be greater than all parts of existence, or else the supernatural entity would merely be a part of existence and no greater than yourself. The only way a supernatural entity could exist then, is wholly outside the realm of existaece. Since it is wholly outside of existence, it is therefore impossible for any part of existence to be aware of it.

This also leads to the truth that nothing supernatural can be a part of existence and nothing that is a part of existence can be supernatural. Thus, all that is in existence is not supernatural. If there were a supernatural entity that operated outside of existence, it could not then interfere with existence because to be a part of existence, something must be completely free of any supernaturality [made up word]. Every concept of god requires that supernaturality has had in some way entered into the realm of existence; since it is impossible for this to be true, then any concept of god is flawed and therefore cannot be.

Next up: Irrefutable proof that I am God.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:17 PM 
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The concept of god as a supernatural entity relies on the idea that it is possible for there to be something greater than yourself.


Please define "greater than yourself," for clarification please.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:43 PM 
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"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

--THGTTG


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:51 PM 
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noojens wrote:
Quote:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

--THGTTG


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:33 PM 
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Please define "greater than yourself," for clarification please.

Okay: More than yourself.

I don't understand why it needs to be clarified? It means greater than what you are. I used "you" throughout my post as an indiscriminate reference to whomever read it. The whole concept of god/the supernatural is that it is something greater than blood, flesh, dirt, atoms, electrons, and all the crazy stuff that we can be aware of as actually existing. I don't mean it like there is something that has more mass or intelligence or anything.

Also, the reason people say "burn in hell" is becasue that's what just what happens to people in hell. You don't go shopping with your grandma in hell. The reason they say it so casually is because hell represents universal fairness, one of the key tenets of Christianity. The idea is/was that if you act unfair to others in your life you will have to pay a price at some point. Of course then Jesus came along and now all you need to do to get into heaven is play the j-card, which has kind of turned the situation sideways.

I just finished watching lost too, and the hurley van was fucking awesome. The future beardo stuff, not so much. Lost doesn't work off the island!


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:20 AM 
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I would recommend Thomas Paines "Age of Reason" to anyone interested in examining the integrity of the compilation contained in the "Bible".

Quote:
Know the thing that always struck me as the most fucked up part of the book if Job? When the bet was all over, God gave Job all sorts of newer and better stuff, including new kids, and the implication is that he was caring and loving and solved all the problems he inflicted. "Even Stevens, I was just kidding around Job!"


The most interesting part of the story to me is often completely overlooked.

Satan, allegedly a fallen angel banished from heaven, is strolling around heaven one day and strikes up a conversation with God. Hardly sounds like bitter adversaries to me.

The conversation basically is Satan telling God humans love him only because he blesses them for it. God disputes this, and offers Job up an example of total, unconditional love. God gives Satan permission and authority to totally mess up Jobs life, to test his faith and prove whether he loves God without all the blessings.

What's Satan doing strolling around Heaven if he's a fallen angel banished from Heaven?


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:39 AM 

Wow.

I was invited HERE to comment. As way of introduction, I pontificate on some of these subjects on a forum she inhabits. She invited me thinking I might be able to contribute something. I am not sure how well I can do that, but I am willing to give it a try. There will always be a distinction between what someone currently believes and what was believed by people in the past, especially authors of texts.

krby71 wrote:
Do I believe in hell, eternal damnation, burning in flames and Satan? Yes. Hell is the realm of Satan who was an angel of God. He clashed with God and was sent from Heaven, banished into Hell.


Upon what do you base that claim? It is not contained in the biblical texts--angel of YHWH or El--or that such clashed with any deity. Indeed, as noted by others, he is part of the heavenly council in Job, free to come and visit. Later extra-biblical texts develop stories that will lead to the beliefs made popular by Milton and Gaiman. It is interesting that the individual texts preserve portions of the development of "Satan" from "his" origins as something you trip over--stn--to an agent--"ha satan"--to something more independent. A lot of mythmaking involved between all of that. The point of that is upon what should one base such a belief?

NevadaShirvo wrote:
Since this would make Genesis not work for me because I can't make evolution work with Adam and Eve and the fall, that makes the Bible suspect to me.


You might find it interesting that the "six day" Creation Myth or P story [From the "Priestly" writer.--Ed.] that opens Genesis is later than the Creation Myth that contains Adam, Eve, snakes, and all of that. That is the J story [From the "Jawhistic" writer.--Ed.]. P certainly did not expect some clown to later stitch his work together with J or the other authors. The J Creation Myth is much more vague, but the appearance of flora and fauna is wrong as well. The P myth also assumes a flat world contained in a "bubble" of sorts in the "waters of the deep" or tehom. The "firmament" holds back such waters from above. In his Flood Myth, apertures are opened in the frimament to allow the water in, literally. The point of all that is that none of that is real: it is myth. I sometimes think it unfair to hold these authors to the scientific standards we have now.

You are correct about the reaction to this: if the text is wrong about "that" what else is it wrong about? As much as fundamentalists may cite the superiority of "faith," they really, really, really want to know that their faith is based on something "solid." Text represents that for the various Christian fundamentalists. So they simply declare the text "inerrant"--one of the "fundamentals" from which we get "fundamentalism!"--and brook no further discussion.

Zatronn1 wrote:
Know the thing that always struck me as the most fucked up part of the book if Job? When the bet was all over, God gave Job all sorts of newer and better stuff, including new kids, and the implication is that he was caring and loving and solved all the problems he inflicted. "Even Stevens, I was just kidding around Job!"


As should be expected. YHWH is a "king" in the true sense of the word. The "point" of Job is that Job has no position to complain, any more than all of the mortals squished in Greek mythology get to complain, or any peasant gets to complain to a king. Gods were not something to "emulate;" in earlier religions. "Be like YHWH" is as ridiculous as trying to "be like Pharaoh" or "Caesar" or any other king. You do what you are told. If one is looking for a "deeper" meaning to Job, it is that even the most devote and good man can get squished.

Fribur wrote:
I just thought I would point out (as someone who has read the Bible) that in the book of Job, it's Satan that does all these things to Job, not God. I'm not sure it changes your point much (since God "allows" Satan to do it), but you make it sound like God struck him down when it isn't the case.


You are splitting hares [Stop that.--Ed.]. "The adversary/prosecutor" of Job--which is basically how one translates "the satan"--acts with the permission and will of YHWH. One is almost forced to acknowledge that YHWH could have, at any time, stepped in and said, "okay, let's stop at the sores part." He does not, obviously. however, you touch upon a major point. In earlier religions, a god doing something "bad" or "evil"--something YHWH frankly admits--was not "odd." Later religions would have a bit of a problem with that. Consider how the Chronicler [Author of the "Chronicles."--Ed.] deals with a messy incident in the Deuteronomistic History [Samuel-Kings.--Ed.]. The Deuteronomistic Historian [DH--Ed.] writes:

Quote:
2 Sam 24:1-10 Again the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah." So the king said to Jo'ab and the commanders of the army, who were with him, "Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beer-sheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people." But Jo'ab said to the king, "May YHWH your god add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it; but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?" But the king's word prevailed against Jo'ab and the commanders of the army. So Jo'ab and the commanders of the army went out from the presence of the king to number the people of Israel. They crossed the Jordan, and began from Aro'er, and from the city that is in the middle of the valley, toward Gad and on to Jazer. Then they came to Gilead, and to Kadesh in the land of the Hittites; and they came to Dan, and from Dan they went around to Sidon, and came to the fortress of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and Canaanites; and they went out to the Negeb of Judah at Beer-sheba. So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Jo'ab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand. But David's heart smote him after he had numbered the people. And David said to YHWH, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O YHWH, I pray thee, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly."


The Chronicler uses the DH as a clear source for his work. At the time of his writing, the idea of YHWH making someone do something just to have the excuse to punish him is problematic. So he introduces "Satan"--the first time such a designation is used:

Quote:
1 Chron 21: 1-7 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Jo'ab and the commanders of the army, "Go, number Israel, from Beer-sheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number." But Jo'ab said, "May YHWH add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord's servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should he bring guilt upon Israel?" But the king's word prevailed against Jo'ab. So Jo'ab departed and went throughout all Israel, and came back to Jerusalem. And Jo'ab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and in Judah four hundred and seventy thousand who drew the sword. But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king's command was abhorrent to Jo'ab. But God [Ha Elohim—Ed.] was displeased with this thing, and he smote Israel.


As Forsyth notes:

Quote:
Given the Chronicler’s pro-Persian stance and his political moderation, a revolution that is so compelling and dangerous is that last thing to which he would want to call his reader’s attention, and still less the ruthless methods provoked by that civil war among members of the holy family. But there was one sin of David’s that could not be passed over: the taking of a census. This episode could not be avoided, because its aftermath was the revelation of the site on which the temple was to be built (Forsyth).


As Forsyth nicely summarizes the Chronicler passes over much of the DH "less creditable acts," but had to keep the census since its aftermath, ". . . was the revelation of the site on which the temple was to be built (Forsyth)." The Chronicler had an obvious problem with a YHWH that "inflicts both sin and punishment," and gives us "Satan."

Nice example of dealing with "t3h Problem of Evil" [Tm.--Ed.]. As time passed and gods became more universal, such idea of "your god" being responsible for "evil," became problematic. Need to blame someone else. That someone could be an adversary or even "you" as in you did not do what you were suppose to do. This brings in a sense of responsibility and justice foreign to the earlier religions preserved in portions of the Hebrew Bible [HB--Ed.]. I would say it is also foreign to the later versions of the HB and NT as well, but it depends on the text.

Quote:
The bible pretty much explains in vivid detail exactly what someone must do to avoid going to Hell.


Really? Kindly inform me what those details are. For Jn ["Gospel of John."--Ed.] you really have no decision in the matter; you are either "born from above" and predetermined to be saved or, like Nicodemus who is good 'n all, you are not. Mk [Mark--Ed.] has a similar exclusivity in that Junior pretty much admits he is preventing a lot of people from being saved. Now, understand, these are authors with agenda who need to convince their intended audiences to follow the version they are presenting. As for the HB, there is no such thing as a "Hell"--everyone seems to go to Sheol which, if you believe Samuel when Saul talks to him with the help of the "Witch of Endor," is not really a pleasant or unpleasant place.

Now forgive me if I be a bit pedantic ["A bit?"--Ed.]:

Sshaaz wrote:
If I know, in my heart, that you don't believe in God, then I know you don't believe in Jesus nor what he teaches.


I could ask "which god," but, more to point, one can "believe in Jesus" without believing in a deity. Of course, this requires one to believe the Historical Junior was simply a man--a very popular belief in the early stages. Then we get into the messy discussion as to whether or not the NT texts preserve anything the Historical Junior actually said or did. The short answer is no one really knows. Lots of scholars with some theological or philosophical need would like to believe they do, but, frankly, there is no definitive evidence, but there is evidence against a lot of sayings--in that the author of the text simply made it up or stole it from someone else. That is rather a tangent I understand, but it brings me to a point: why would you believe in something that tortures good people, simply because they do not bow and scrape to it?

tarot wrote:
Another interesting thing about Job is that God pretty much vanishes from the OT after that.


Which god? [Stop that!--Ed.] Right . . . sorry, anyways, understand that the HB is not chronologically put together in the sense of "earliest text first" to last. Job is rather early, certainly, and certain authors of the Pentateuch ["The First Five Books"--Ed.], are rather late respectively. Though you do recognize a major difference between the conceptions of deities from author to author over time. The J YHWH is quite anthropomorphic: he wanders about looking for people, takes them aside, does bad things and good things. The E [Elohist author.--Ed.] is similarly a bit personable--telling Abraham to kill me a son, where do you want this killing done, down by Highway 6[GET ON WITH IT!--Ed.].

Right . . . sorry. The P deity is a bit more "remote" even if he addresses important people like Noah.

Move on to the NT, "God" is far more monotheistic in that you do not have the polytheisms or henotheisms [Many gods, but "our god" is greater.--Ed.] of the HB. Still, he is willing in some texts to yell down at people.

This is part and parcel of mythology: mythology takes place in a separate realm and time from what we experience--or anyone experienced at the time of authorship of the texts. Compare to Homer: various deities wander about the battlefields helping favorites. This, obviously, did not happen to people listening to a rhapsode sing the epic!

Tarot wrote:
Just as I would say in the story of Exodus God kills the first born male children, etc. Yes, an angel actually does it, but it's accurate to say (in my opinion more accurate to say) God does it.


Not identified as an "angel" but I am being pedantic. However, YHWH demands child sacrifice. He demands the sacrifice of entire populations. What I often find funny is how some will winge over the slaying of the Egyptian first-born yet forget about all of the other mass-slayings in the HB or the commandment to sacrifice your first born. However, as I opened this pontification, one should not retroject modern conceptions into ancient religions. The "point" of the "slaying of the first born" in the stories is a demonstration of the power of a national deity. "Hey! Look! Long ago we KICKED ASS!!"

As for whether or not "good works" matter, it depends on the author. Jn would not know Paul if he bit him in the ass! I would also argue that Paul would not know Junior if et cetera! Different theologies.

Sarrissa wrote:
Satan represents the choice to act against god's will. Having free will without choice, or at least awareness of the choices available, doesn't mean that much. The knowledge of these choices is what was symbolically gained by eating the forbidden fruit. Before then Adam and Eve acted in accordance with god's will because they knew of no alternative to it.


Noooooootttttttt reeeeaaaallllyyyyy. It all depends upon "where" in the text you are. The serpent is not "Satan" as we conceive of "Satan." The J story is a "just so" story that explains why "we" are not like the gods. YHWH is quite clear about it; he states he does not want Adam and Eve to become "like us"--and there is no "Royal We" in Biblical Hebrew! It simply explains why we are not gods.

There are many "satans" in the HB. Heck, in Numbers 22:22 & 32:, and angel refers to himself as a "satan" sent to squish a character not doing what he should! If anything, the old "stumbling block" represents a warning against a "bad choice."

Also, I would warn against using the KJV as a translation. It was based on inferior texts and the translators did not have modern understanding of the languages. The best textual witnesses were discovered centuries after they had all shuttled off this mortal coil and joined the bleedin' Choir Invisible. The RSV is "better" but it also has some problems, but all in all, it will serve better.

Granted, if one discusses what people prior to the 20th Century thought represented "the Bible," one has to deal with the KJV, but that is a different subject! It is no surprise that Joseph Smith messed about with "thees and thous" and the first good translation of the Quran used "thees and thous." Remember, it is not a god worthy of fear and worship if he does not "smiteth thou!"

Crowde Control wrote:
We aren't saved by our good works but by grace. Good works are simply evidence to the world that Christ has changed us. When we are changed by Christ, we are inspired to do good works.

Ref: Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:7 and 2.11, James 2:14-26


Depends on the theology of the author. You cannot expect Paul to agree with the authors of the texts you cite any more than you can expect Marx to agree with Smith to agree with John Lennon. Jn would disagree with your first statement right of the bat: if you were not born to be saved--"born from above"--then forget it! Mk would not care. The entirety of the HB would not care either.

Joxur:

I will just say your post indicates you are avoiding a lot of information. I must question how much of a "hardcore Atheist" you were, frankly, given your reticence to discuss issues of the texts. Seriously. That is information. One needs to deal with information. I am a "friendly audience" in that if you are a Gentleman or Lady of Quality--"measur'd in manner and speech"--I am as well, though I may suffer a tendency to turgid pomposity. However, you post suggests a "I believe it and don't want to discuss it" attitude. You are free to that opinion, of course, but then you really should not be surprised that a lot of people do not follow it. You claim it depends on the audience. I would reply it depends on the evidence.

Fibur:

To touch upon your post to Tarot on chronology, most scholars know that an Abram/Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs never existed, there was no Sojourn, no Exodus, no Conquest, et cetera. Some try to hold on to a Solomon and David as real persons, but the "empires" claimed in the texts had no existence. The texts do; however, preserve references to persons that existed and, interestingly, that helps to date them! My point in that blathering is that the texts create a mythic past to serve the present of the individual authors. I think your other observations in that post are quite valid.

Tarot:

Regarding "near death experiences," one can create physiological brain death with proper drugs. For some strange reason, the people do not report anything if they are allowed to wake up. As you suggest, the NDEs result from stressed brain.

Right.

--J.D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:43 AM 

I gather you cannot edit? Means I will have to pay more attention to "Preview."

Forgot to actually include the reference to the post above:

Forsyth N. The Old Enemy: Satan and the Combat Myth. Princeton: 1987.

--J.D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:58 AM 
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I don't know who you are, DoctorX, but I like you.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:36 AM 
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Wow. DoctorX hands Tarot her ass in the verbosity department. I like his style of writing! It sounds positively English.

I snuck in to mention my own views, but they don't really matter. Maybe I'll just keep reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:47 AM 

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:07 AM 
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Let's also not forget that for a long time, the idea that Lucifer fell from being God's "general" to "god's left hand" was also embraced...where Lucifer did the things that God "should not" do, such as tempting people away from Him.

The idea that Lucifer is also the Adversary is a relatively recent invention.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:10 AM 
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As way of introduction, I asked DoctorX to post here and I've known him elsewhere for a few years (on the internet). You'll have to form your own opinions (and of course I'd always encourage you to do so, but lets face it...I couldn't stop you anyway! :D) but he's one of the best experts on the bible I've had the pleasure of knowing. I (of course!) don't ask that you lend any weight to what he says based on my opinion, as always measure the worth of what people say by what they say, and the accuracy of it, etc.

Anyhoo, I've learned quite a bit over the years from him, and from reading his writings on various biblical and religious texts. If anyone is ever impressed with my admittedly meager knowledge I'd say I know about .01% of what he does. And that's probably me bragging and overstating. Seriously. When I have tough questions I can't find out easily...I pester him. And if you think about the various Jesuits and other scholars I've pestered over the years, it's no faint praise.

He's a gem, and I'm extremely glad he found interest in this thread. I fully expect him to hand me my ass on a few things too. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:45 AM 
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Nice post, Doctor-- I enjoyed reading it, and it reminds me of some of the friends I used to have in another time...

I'm wondering if you could comment more on this statement:

Quote:
most scholars know that an Abram/Abraham and the rest of the Patriarchs never existed, there was no Sojourn, no Exodus, no Conquest, et cetera. Some try to hold on to a Solomon and David as real persons, but the "empires" claimed in the texts had no existence.


You say "most," but my impression has been quite different. There are a lot of theories out there, and there does not seem to me to be a consensus on whether or not there was an Exodus, or a conquest of Palestine. You make it sound more definitive than I think it is. Could you show me on what you make this claim?

I could go along with there not being an Abraham or patriarchs, but it certainly seems possible that a group of Hebrews ended up in Egypt, then left later and moved up to Palestine.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:54 AM 
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sorry about the double post-- I also wanted to ask if you use http://www.bibleorigins.net/ as a source for your information-- some of your phrases and sentence structure match some of the articles there.

Droma-- I asked what "greater than yourself" meant because it was a major leg of your "proof." You based your entire argument on using a definition of God as "greater than yourself," and I didn't know what that meant. Does that mean bigger than me? Numerically more than me? The indefinite quality of your comment makes it pretty unconvincing to me as a "proof," and that's only the first of many problems I had with your little two paragraphs.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:39 AM 

Vanamar wrote:
Let's also not forget that for a long time, the idea that Lucifer fell from being God's "general" to "god's left hand" was also embraced...where Lucifer did the things that God "should not" do, such as tempting people away from Him.

The idea that Lucifer is also the Adversary is a relatively recent invention.


Both are relatively recent inventions. "Lucifer" was never "a satan" or even "the Satan" until someone looked for a passage that justified such a reading. The author of the passage Isa 14:12-15 intends it as a taunt towards the king of Babylon.

--J.D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:49 AM 

Sorry, thought I was at the end of the thread.

Fribur wrote:
You say "most," but my impression has been quite different. There are a lot of theories out there, and there does not seem to me to be a consensus on whether or not there was an Exodus, or a conquest of Palestine. You make it sound more definitive than I think it is. Could you show me on what you make this claim?


I am not aware of any archaeologist or current scholar who holds to that. Go to your "bible college" and who knows what you find. I have put together an "answer" to your question with references. As you can imagine, it is a claim that is would be considered controversial in the popular understanding. However, it is a bit like asking, "how do you know there was a Big Bang?" of a physicist. There is an answer, but it is long and involved. I am happy to provide it, but it might tangent this thread beyond ridiculous.

Quote:
I also wanted to ask if you use http://www.bibleorigins.net/ as a source for your information-- some of your phrases and sentence structure match some of the articles there.


Never heard of the site.

--J.D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:25 AM 
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Get out of here DoctorX; you're entirely too educated on this subject for this community (I include myself in that community).


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:38 AM 
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DoctorX sounds like my Mythology 140 Professor :shock: .


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:00 AM 
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I am happy to provide it, but it might tangent this thread beyond ridiculous.


Go ahead! We go way off topic around here all the time :). Is it based on the general idea that some of the sites mentioned in those books did not seem to exist at the same time? Hopefully that was clear enough that I don't need to go further and try to explain what I mean...


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:36 AM 

Why No Exodus or Conquest:

Since this question arises during discussions on history, biblical inerrancy, and the designated hitter rule, I took the opportunity to compile a great summary from a great reference. This has proved quite the time saver! First of all, let me identify the primary text that served as the basic of this essay: Archaeology and the Bible. I have primarily followed Laughlin's organization.

I have revised and expanded this summary to add further scholars and to touch upon the historical problems of the Davidic and Solomonic monarchy. I am afraid I must share Whitelam's basic thesis that both scholars and laypeople start with the basic assumption that the stories of the Hebrew Bible have a historical and factual basis. This is an assumption that is no longer tenable. Scholars can no longer depend on the Hebrew Bible for history and read the extra-biblical evidence through the lens of the Hebrew Bible, and archaeologists can no longer wander Palestine with a spade in one hand and the Bible in the other. Lemche is blunt: “. . . it is hardly possible any more to uphold this idea of the Old Testament literature as a historical source in the classical sense of the word,� (Lemche, TIiH).

The temple in Shiloh serves as a good example of the problem of “wandering around the desert with a Bible in one hand and a shovel in the other.� As Lemche notes, in Jer 7:12, Jeremiah asks people to travel to Shiloh to learn what will happen to the Temple in Jerusalem: “This temple in Shiloh is well known from the biblical historical narrative as the sanctuary where the prophet Samuel grew up (1 Samuel 1-3). It is the home of the priest Eli and his wanton sons, the place where the holy ark stood before it was lost to the Philistines; in short, the sanctuary of Yahweh that truly preceded the establishment of Jerusalem’s Temple,� (Lemche, TIiH). However, for “. . . more than two generations, archaeologists have been looking for this temple without finding so much as a trace of it. The reason for the search is, of course, that there must be a temple in Shiloh since the Bible says so,� (Lemche, TIiH).

Part of the problem comes with retrojecting relatively modern conceptions of nationhood and kingdom to the past. Lemche traces this to the Romantic period in which biblical scholarship concentrated on nationality and history: “This was part of the general romantic construct, which could be called the national state. The nation-state . . . was dependent on the acceptance by its populace of belonging together,� (Lemche, TIiH). Lemche explains that history was introduced to create this “sense of ethnic identity,� since, “. . . it created the sense of something very old, that is to say, that the nation-state could trace its origin back to the early days of the people who happened to inhabit the state,� (Lemche, TIiH). From this, contends Lemche, “. . . it became a truism in romanticism that the inhabitants of a certain area belonged to the same ethnos with an age-old history, and each ethnos displayed characteristic traits, which were particular to it in comparison with the neighboring nations,� (Lemche, TIiH). Furthermore, this idea of history became:

Quote:
. . . a specific European political phenomenon in order to persuade the masses—most of all the peasants—that they belonged to a certain nation and therefore were obliged to fight for the preservation of their state. We accordingly find over the next century in Europe a development of the historical sciences that went hand in hand wit the growing of European nationalism (Lemche, TIiH).


Lemche contends that history becomes a tool for the creators of ethnicity, and “. . . it is of little importance whether this history is a real history or an invented one,� (Lemche, TIiH). Thus:

Quote:
History is written in order to create identity among the members of a certain society, congregation, or whatever ethnic group we may speak about. The only important thing seen in the perspective of the author, who created this history, would be that it must be acceptable for its readership; its readers must be able to identify with the history as it has been told to them,� (Lemche, TIiH).

The Problem of "Exodus" Out of Egypt

Quote:
In fact, this story (or stories) is so essential to the Bible's self-understanding that biblical scholars, and especially "biblical" archaeologists, until recently took for granted that at its core there must have been some "historical" event, however, much it might have been embellished by later generations of Israelites. . . . However, in the past ten to fifteen years there have been a steady increase of the archaeological data that have raised very serious doubts about the historicity of this story, as well as that of Joshua's "conquest" of Canaan (Laughlin). . . .


Hendel notes that, "Recent decades have seen a diminution of William F. Albright's confidence that the exodus was undoubtedly a historical event," (Hendel). Regarding the defense of Albright's confidence in the historicity of the Exodus story, Hendel cites Hoffmeier's concession that there exists no direct archaeological or historical evidence to support it (Hendel, Hoffmeier).

Whitelam devotes much of his work to demonstrating that biblical scholarship and archaeology operated on the assumption that the texts preserved an accurate history, an assumption driven more by religious and political bias than actual evidence. On the contrary, "The picture of Israel's past as presented in much of the Hebrew Bible is a ficton, a fabrication like most pictures of the past constructed by ancient (and, we might add, modern) societies," (Whitelam). More recent efforts, particularly in studying the way in which tradition "is invented or recycled," have:

Quote:
. . . undermined the fundamental assumption within biblical studies that such traditions, despite a significant temporal separation from the events they describe, necessarily preserve some kind of historical kernel or historical memory which can be extracted from the narrative to provide raw data for the modern historian (Whitelam).


The very use of "history" implies an underlying accuracy. Referencing a complaint of Hughes, Whitelam notes that "many biblical scholars refuse to use the term 'myth' in relation to the Bible because it is commonly defined as stories about gods whereas the Hebrew Bible is presented as non-mythical and monotheistic," (Hughes). This point cannot be stressed too strongly: the stories about gods are myths and the texts of the Hebrew Bible are not monotheistic.

Literary Evidence:

When evaluating literary sources which include the HB texts, one has to be aware of whether or not the sources serve as evidence for the events described, particularly the details. Oliver Stone’s movie JFK is based on an actual event in history; however, his details are, to be kind, fiction. Thus, in evaluating the HB texts as a source for Israelite history, Lemche cautions that everything, “. . . narrated by them may in principle be historical, but the biblical text cannot in advance be accepted as a historical source or documentation; it has in every single case to prove its status as a historical source,� (Lemche, TIiH). Contrary to critics who cast his and others from the “Copenhagen School� as denying the biblical texts as historical sources, Lemche maintains that the, “. . . text of the Old Testament is, for the simple reason that it is an old document, a historical source. The question is only about what,� (Lemche, TIiH). Thus, while it has been, “. . . traditionally believed to be a respectable enterprise to try to show that a certain event narrated by the Old Testament really happened and that the narrative is for that reason a valuable source,� (Lemche, TIiH), this is the same fallacious reasoning that because Kennedy was actually assassinated, Stone’s film becomes a “valuable source� to justify the erroneous “magic bullet,� let alone the wild conspiracies theories. I would extend Lemche’s caution to note that just because a biblical text describes an actual historical event, that does not make everything else actual history. Those engaged in inerrancy apologetics miss that critical point.

In evaluating the literary evidence for an Egyptian Sojourn, Exodus, or Conquest for that matter, Laughlin notes:

Quote:
Except for the biblical story there is no literary evidence that there was ever an Egyptian Sojourn and Exodus as described in the Bible. This is true regardless of the date one assumes for the event, if there was such an "event" at all. [He then discusses the Mernaptah Stela.--Ed.]

Dated to the fifth year of Mernapthah's reign (ca. 1208-7, according to the low chronology), the stela contains a hymn or a series of hymns celebrating the pharaoh's victory over his enemies. . . . . . . This is the earliest reference to "Israel" as a community known from any ancient text. . . . [He gives a reference for "Israel" as a personal name.--Ed.]

Quote:
[He quotes from the stela which is translated by Albright in Prichard's ANET. The Israel quote is:--Ed.]: Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; (Laughlin). . .


Without assuming the biblical story in advance, there is absolutely nothing in the stela inscription itself to suggest to anyone that this "Israel" was ever in Egypt. All that can be reasonably inferred from it is that an Egyptian scribe at the end of the thirteenth century BC could list among the enemies defeated by the pharaoh a group of people living in Canaan known collectively as "Israel," . . . How this “Israel� was organized; what deity or deities it worshipped, and most of all, from where this “Israel� originated and in what way or ways, if any, it is to be related to the “Israel� that emerged 200 years later under Saul and David is nowhere mentioned nor even suggested, . . . . . . Papyrus Anastasi V (Wilson, ANET: 259), might allow one to hypothesize that a few Egyptian slaves could have slipped out of Egypt from time to time, but all of the known Egyptian texts put together do not even remotely hint at an "Exodus" (Laughlin). . . .


Papyrus Anastasi V is a model letter for students which reports the pursuit of two escaped slaves (Wilson). An Exodus it is not.

Whitelam agrees with Laughlin's analysis and states that the, ". . . only clear information provided by the inscription is that some entity called Israel was encountered in the region by the Pharaoh's troops towards the end of the thirteenth century BCE; . . ." (Whitelam). He continues: "Israel appears to be distinguished from the place names Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yano'am by a determinative which is used elsewhere to designate 'people' or 'foreign people," (Whitelam). However, Whitelam does concede that to be mentioned in a royal inscription, this "Israel" had to have some "relative significance," (Whitelam).

The status of the Merneptah stele has changed. Lemche notes that in, “. . . the days of old—only a generation ago—this text was considered important evidence of the immigration of the biblical Israelites into Palestine, . . .� (Lemche, TIiH).

The Archaeological Evidence (see Dever 1997b; Weinstein 1997b):

Interestingly, Lemche notes that in, “. . . traditional historical research, written sources always take precedence over all other types of evidence,� (Lemche, TIiH). This may appear odd given that it is rather easier to create a story and write it down even centuries after the event in the story, than it is to create remnants of villages, farmsteads, houses, artifacts, and even cities. However, Lemche notes that the problem with archaeological results is they come from “a highly complicated scientific discipline,� with results “. . . based on material remains not accompanied by any written indication of the people who produced them,� (Lemche, TIiH). In other words, in order to claim that a settlement is or is not the product of a particular people, for example, it rather helps to have some evidence that supports or establishes that connection. Laughlin does a rather good job at explaining how certain artifacts made by a particular people—all of that shard stuff!—can help support that “these� people lived in “this� place. Lemche would remind that such do not establish that “a� people used them, “many� different people may have shared the same artifact. More specifically, the two artifacts that have traditionally been held up as indicative of “early ‘Israeli’ culture�: the three-room house and the collared-rim jar, both of which have been found far outside of the territory considered “Israeli,� (Lemche, TIiH).

Nevertheless, one would expect that a Sojourn, Exodus, and even Conquest would have left material evidence evidence, even evidence devoid of the “written indication� Lemche mentions. Curiously:

Quote:
[Laughlin notes some attempts to defend the biblical story and then quotes.--Ed.], "were it not for the Bible, anyone looking at the Palestinian archaeological data today would conclude that whatever the origin of the Israelites, it was not Egypt" (Weinstein 1997b: 98). . . . Any serious doubts regarding the historicity of the "Exodus" also impact upon an understanding of the "Conquest."

Any effort to support the biblical story . . . will have to explain the following: first, if the inhabitants of the Central Highlands of Palestine in the Iron Age I period came from a people who had an extended sojourn (over 400 years according to the Bible, I Kings 6:1) in Egypt, why have excavations and surveys of these villages yielded so little evidence of Egyptian influence. . . ? . . . according to biblical tradition, several million people (cf. Exod. 12:37; Num. 1:45-6) wandered around the Sinai Peninsula for "forty" years. Yet not a single trace of such a group has ever been recovered.

Most telling in this regard is the archaeological history of Tell el-Qudeirat, identified as ancient Kadesh-Barnea. The excavations . . . locate in the northern Sinai . . . have recovered nothing pre-dating the tenth-ninth centuries BC. . . . Kadesh-Barnea played a major role in the biblical traditions of the Exodus and wilderness wanderings (Num 13:26; 20:1,14). . . . Surly, if this event as described in the Bible actually happened, something of the presence of so many people would have turned up by now, if nothing more than camp sites with datable pottery (Laughlin).


Laughlin then notes the connection between problems with the Conquest and Exodus dovetail.

The Emergence of Early "Israel":

Quote:
[Summarizes the biblical story.--Ed.] The clear impression one gets from this story is that a united Israel attacked Canaan from the east and that the defeat of its inhabitants, at least in the Central Highlands, was sudden, swift and complete. That something is seriously wrong with this picture is an understatement. [He then summarizes previous models for interpreting the occupation.--Ed.]

The catalyst for starting much of this discussion [Revolution in understanding of emergence of early "Israel."--Ed.] was the publication of I. Finkelstein's book, The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement, in 1988. . . . . . . Finkelstein showed that there were hundreds (more than 300, p. 333) of new villages or hamlets that had sprung up in the Central Hill Country of Canaan during the Iron Age I. . . . . . . Finkelstein estimated the entire population of the Hill Country peoples to be no more than 50,000, if not fewer . . . a remarkably small number when compared with the millions who supposedly left Egypt with Moses only "forty" years earlier (Laughlin). . . .


Whitelam, while granting the importance of Finkelstein's work, reminds that Finkelstein still concentrates on finding an "ancient Israel" that is assumed to exist: "It is, in essence, however, unwittingly, the search for a national identity . . . like other nationalist archaeologies, . . ." (Whitelam). Nevertheless, "Finkelstein has realized the inherent problems of such a definition by his admission that he would consider omitting the term 'Israelite' from the discussion of Iron I settlement and refer instead to 'hill country settlers' until the period of the monarch," (Whitelam). Whitelam emphasizes that Finkelstein's concession, ". . . is significant since it confirms the growing recognition that the archaeological evidence from recent surveys ad excavations cannot be used to differentiate Israelite and indigenous material culture," (Whitelam). Or as Lemche claims “. . . biblical Canaanites [are] the invention of ancient biblical historians,� (Lemche, TIiH, citing TCaTL).

Laughlin continues:

Quote:
Other studies . . . have also argued that the people who moved into the highlands were farmers and horticulturists, not nomadic raiders from the east. . . . These, and other archaeological data, have led Dever to conclude that the Iron I inhabitants of these Central Hill villages were anything but invading nomads from the desert as portrayed in the Bible. Rather, they "appear to be skilled and well-adapted peasant farmers, long familiar with local conditions in Canaan" (Dever 1992c: 549-50). Until recently it was assumed by most scholars that the Iron I inhabitants were Israelites. . . . . . . thanks to the pioneering efforts of archaeologists such as Dever and Finkelstein, this is no longer acceptable.

Although Dever . . . has agreed with Finkelstein that the Iron I village people were not nomads invading from the east, he has disagreed with Finkelstein completely on the question of their origins. For Dever, most of the Iron I Central Hill villagers came from the already sedentary Canaanite population . . . not from non-sedentarized pastoralists (Laughlin).


In a funny footnote, Laughlin notes the "disagreement" between Dever and Finkelstein extends to the highly specialized field of ceramics and advises to "Stay tuned!"

Whitelam cites Lemche's complaint of the very circular interpretation common in biblical studies, ". . . pointing out that the period around 1200 BC is hardly ever described as an archaeological phase rather than a historical period, . . ." (Whitelam). Lemche explains:

Quote:
The reason for this seems to be the fact that some archaeologists appear to find it more fascinating to hunt for "proof" of the presence of Israel, since even the most minute changes in architecture, pottery, town lay-out, and so forth, have been taken to show the presence of new (foreign) elements among the existing population at this time (Lemche, EI).


Whitelam notes the importance of Lemche's conclusion:

Quote:
Thus it was correct to dismiss the importance of the Settlement traditions in the OT and to see them instead as expressions of a very late view of the nation's origins which arose in the last part of the monarchical period and particularly in the period after the loss of national independence. The consequences of this fact ought to be taken seriously. It is no longer legitimate to attempt to "save the appearances" of certain portions of the Settlement narrative. Rather, it is the very idea of Settlement, as it appears in the OT, which must be done away with, for historical reasons. In one's reconstruction of the course of events towards the close of the second millennium one ought at least in the first instance to ignore completely the OT traditions, and instead attempt to reconstruct the archaeological history of the period without considering whether it was Israelites or Canaanites who were active at one site or another. (Lemche, EI).


Problems with Tel-Dan and David:

Introduction: Archaeology and the Bible:

Laughlin notes that if, ". . . there is an archaeolological period deserving of the description 'biblical,' it is Iron Age II. This is the time of David and Solomon (at least for those who still believe that they existed as more than figments of some post-exilic writer's imagination)," (Laughlin). He quotes J. M. Miller:

Quote:
Any time historians, archaeologists, sociologists, or whoever speak of Israelite tribes in the central Palestinian Hill Country at the beginning of Iron Age I, or about the Davidic-Solomonic monarchy or about two contemporary kingdoms emerging from this early monarchy, they are presupposing information that comes from, and only from, the Hebrew Bible (Miller).


Whitelam also cites Miller's observation that, ". . . there is no evidence for a Davidic-Solomonic monarchy independent of the biblical traditions. Historians who refer to this entity are presupposing information which is drawn from the Hebrew Bible," (Whitelam).

Iron Age IIa--the United Monarchy (ca. 1000-923 BC)

For those familiar with the HB, the Iron Age contains a great empire that, “. . . is supposed to have stretched from, in the north, the Eurphrates and reached as far south as the Brook of Egypt, most likely present-day Wadi el-Arish in northern Sinai,� an empire whose capital was the great city of Jerusalem, ruled by the great kings David and Solomon (Lemche, TIiH). Curiously, the only source for this “empire� comes from the HB texts or texts dependent upon its narratives; not, “. . . a single document from the ancient Near East refers to either of these to kings of Israel,� (Lemche, TIiH). In reality, the core of Jerusalem, “. . . was a small fortified town the size of a few hectares and with a population of hardly more than a couple of thousand persons, including women and children, that is, with an adult male population of about three to four hundred men,� (Lemche, TIiH).

Laughlin states:

Quote:
The difficulty of relating archaeological data to biblical traditions is clearly apparent when studying the Iron Age IIa period. Biblically speaking, this is the time assigned to David and Solomon and the United Monarchy. . . .

. . . until the remarkable discovery of the so-called "Tel Dan Stela" . . . no reference to "David" was known outside of the Bible, with the possible exception of the Meshe Inscription ("Moabite Stone"). The Tel Dan inscription, as well as the Meshe Stela, are both dated to the end of the ninth century BC. Here I would simply point out that while the translation, "House of David," on the Dan stela has been hotly disputed by a few scholars, the majority of experts who have examined this inscription have confirmed this reading. However, even assuming that the authenticity of this reading proves nothing about a supposedly tenth-century BC monarch, its date (late ninth century) provides what, in archaeology, is known as a terminus post quem. . . . What it does prove is that by the end of the ninth century BC, a political entity known as the "House of David" could be referred to in a public inscription and its referent be expected to be understood by passers-by. However, the connection of the "David" on this stela with the "David" in the Bible is a matter of interpretation, not archaeology. . . . Furthermore, this reference to "David" proves nothing about a "Solomon."

In fact, there is very little in the overall archaeological picture of the tenth century BC that can be connected with David (Laughlin). . . .


Regarding Tel Dan, Whitelam reminds that:

Quote:
Even if it is accepted that this is a reference to the Davidic dynasty and not a place name, as some argue, it is similar to the Merneptah stele in revealing very little in way of usable historical information which we did not already possess. . . . . . . such a stele may confirm the existence of a dynasty which is traced back to a founder named David but it cannot confirm the biblical traditions in Samuel about this founder (Whitelam).


Furthermore, both Laughlin and Whitelam remind that controversy persists as to whether or not "house of David" refers to a person or a place. Whitelam cites Davies' analysis that, ". . . the lack of a word divider suggests that this might be a place name," (Whitelam; Davies). This criticism is repeated by Lemche who discusses the Tel Dan inscriptions in his reference on the Israelites in history and tradition, (Lemche, TIiH). To begin, he notes that whenever, “. . . an important collection of texts appears, the interpretation of this discovery fist has to pass through a process handled by biblical scholars who try, so to speak on the basis of this inscription, to prove ‘that the Bible is, after all, true,’� (Lemche, TIiH). Tel Dan is really two fragments that belong to two different inscriptions created by two different engravers, (Lemche, TIiH). Lemche finds it ironic that if some of the original publishing scholars are correct and the two texts may be connected and read together, “. . . we would be in possession of a curious but important example of a contemporary text going directly against the evidence of the Old Testament,� (Lemche, TIiH).

The term is bytdwd--ניתדוד--(Lemche, TIiH)—and the confusion comes from, “. . . the way this Beth David is written in this inscription, which uses word dividers, or small dots inserted between words, (Lemche, TIiH). Lemche explains:

Quote:
In biblical references to the House of David, Bêt Davîd, the name is always written in two words, as are also contemporary dynastic names of states in Syria and Mesopotamia like Bit Adini, Bit Gusi, . . to mention just a few of them. We were accordingly to expect a word divider between the two words in Beth David. Otherwise, other name combinations including the word Beth are known from the Old Testament, including the city names of Bethel and Beth-shean. Such names are, however, normally written in one word, like bytdwd of the Tel Dan inscription A. It could therefore well be that we here have a reference to a place name in the vicinity of Dan rather than a mentioning of the kingdom of Judah, (Lemche, TIiH).


In conclusion, Lemche feels the Tel Dan inscriptions exemplify a “. . . classical example of how biblical scholars are moved not so much by evidence from the inscription itself as by the wish to create links between the inscription and the biblical narrative,� (Lemche, TIiH).

The Meshe/a Stela, dated to the 9th century BCE does not really describe a King David. It is celebration of the victories of King Mesha of Moab who is referenced in the biblical text as defeating Israel with the sacrifice of his son:

Quote:
Seeing that the battle was going against him, the king of Moab led an attempt of seven hundred swordsmen to break a way through to the king of Edom; but they failed. So he took his first-born son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him up on the wall as a burnt offering. A great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and went back to their own land (2 Kgs 3:26-27).


Levenson notes, “More serious is the great “wrath� (qesep) that falls on Israel . . , for the implication is clear: Mesha’s sacrifice worked. . . . . . . the term qesep indicates a force external to the people involved. . . . the author saw Mesha’s sacrifice of his first-born son as having a profound effect upon the deity to whom it was offered, in this case presumably the Moabite national deity Chemosh. . . . (Levenson).

The salient parts are:

Quote:
As for Omri (5) king of Israel, he humbled Moab many days (lit., days), for Chemosh was angry at his land. . . . but I have triumphed over him and over his house, while Israel hath perished for ever! (Now) Omri had occupied the land of Medeba, and (Israel) had dwelt there in his time and half the time of his son (Ahab), forty years; but Chemosh dwelt there in my time.

. . . Now the men of Gad had always dwelt in the land of Ataroth, and the king of Israel had built Ataroth, and the king of Israel had built Ataroth for them; but I fought against the town and took it and slew all of the people of the town as satiation (intoxication) for cheomsh and Moab.
. . . .
And Chemosh said to me, “Go, take Nebo from Israel!� (15) So I went up by night and fought against it from the break of dawn until noon, taking it and slaying all, seven thousand men, boys, women, girls and maid-servants, for I have devoted them to destruction for (the god) Ashtar-Chemosh. And I took from there the [ . . . ] of Yahweh, dragging them before Chemosh. And the king of Israel had built Jahaz, and he dwelt there while he was fighting against me, but Chemosh drove him out before me (Albright).


The parenthetical material is supplied by Albright; the son of Ahab is not actually named in the text. Lemche suggests the fact that Mesha does not mention Ahab, “. . . probably reveals that he was fairly ignorant of conditions in the kingdom of Israel in his days, (Lemche, TIiH). Furthermore, “‘King Omri’ of Israel may be the only Israelite ‘king’ known by name by Mesha, simply because Israel was in those days often or normally called ‘the House of Omri,’� (Lemche, TIiH). Thus, this may not necessarily be a specific reference to King Omri of Israel.

The only other possible reference to “David� comes from the reference to, “. . . the cult of Ataroth, in Moabite ’r’l dwdh, . .� (Lemche, TIiH). Aside from the contextual difficulties of such an interpretation, “. . . the mentioning of the dwdh in the Mesha inscription cannot be a reference to David endowed with a personal suffix (‘his David’) as Semitic personal names do not carry personal suffixes, (Lemche, TIiH).

Some time has past since I created this essay to address questions concerning the historicity of the Exodus and Conquest. It has expanded over time to cover the Davidic and Solomonic monarchies. I could expand it further to include criticisms with the assumptions of a once united monarchy, or any political entity of significance. As Whitelam asserts,

Quote:
Palestine simply could not compete with the far superior riverine agrarian economies and demographic base of Egypt and Mesopotama. Later it would be the natural advantages of the Anatolian and Persian plateaux, and eventually Europe, in the form of the Greek and Roman powers, which would come to dominate Palestine. A region with the infrastructural inferiority of Palestine could not compete with contemporary military powers while agricultural production and demography remained such key factors in the dynamics of world power. The imagined past of a Davidic empire needs to be examined in light of this fundamental reality (Whitelam).


One scholar whom I shall keep anonymous at his request, confesses a belief in the basic ideas behind the Jewish religions and, frankly, wants there to be Historical Davids and Solomons. His evidence? "No one questions the existence of David and Solomon!" Unfortunately, many do. Furthermore, any evidence appears to remain in the eye of the beholder. He has no answer for the obvious conclusion of the evidence that "whatever" such historical figures could be, they and their kingdoms as described in the Bible have no existence.

Albert Schweitzer came to a similar conclusion regarding the Historical Junior in which after listing all of the dogmatic attributes from "born of a virgin" to performing miracles to resurrection, ". . . never had any existence," (Schweitzer). Schweitzer waffles in the end, declaring Junior an "immeasurably great man" because . . . well . . . just because! I like to think the reaction to his work sent him scurrying to Africa.

Ironically, the scholar I mentioned is on the forefront of publicizing what has been basic biblical scholarship for over a hundred years, but few laypeople have any knowledge of. His response to evidence for his historical figures reads very much like the responses delivered by fundamentalists to biblical scholarship.

As we [We?--Ed.] have discovered recently, skepticism sometimes ends at the threshold of belief. Most biblical and religious scholars have some belief system, be it "fundamentalist" to an amorphous "Something Up There" that they really do not want to question. Why else would they spend so many years mastering dead languages and staring at inscriptions on pottery shards while their colleagues in science fuck the cheerleaders . . . okay . . . fuck to pictures of cheerleaders . . . right, pictures of actresses on Star Trek? Scripture has always served the promise of truth: underneath the belief is a firm foundation. Only our interpretation of such a foundation is an issue.

Thus, the desire and need to find "something true" in scripture to validate an entire belief system. For some, this "something" does not have to be very large. An honest scholar who has published a number of respected texts on the polytheism of "Israeli" religion, confesses a belief in "Big Daddy" from the onset to warn others of his potential bias. Very honest, and for this scholar, unnecessary since his belief does not color his interpretations.

--J.D.

Main Reference:

Laughlin JCH. Archaeology and the Bible. London: Routledge, 2000.

References Quoted in Main Reference:

Albright WF. “The Moabite Stone,� in: JB Pritchard (ed). Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, 3rd. Ed. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1969.

Dever WG. "Israel, History of (Archaeology and the 'Conquest')," ABD, vol. 3, 1992.

Dever WG. "Qom, Kirbet El-," OEANE, vol. 4, 1997

Finkelstein I. The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1988.

Miller JM. "Is it Possible to Write a History of Israel without Relying on the Hebrew Bible?" in: D.V. Edelman (ed.) The Fabric of History: Text, Artifact and Israel's Past Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1991.

Weinstein JM. "Exodus and Archaeological Reality," in E. Frerichs and L. Lesko (eds) Exodus: The Egyptian Evidence. Eisenbrauns: 1997.

Wilson JA. “The Pursuit of Runaway Saves,� and “Hymn of Victory of Mer-ne-Ptah (The “Israel Stela�)� in: JB Pritchard (ed). Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, 3rd. Ed. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1969.

Additional References:

Davies PR. "'House of David' Built on Sand: the Sin of the Biblical Maximizers," Biblical Archaeology Review. 1992; 20: 54-5.

Finkelstein I, Silberman NA. The Bible Unearthed. New York: Free Press, 2001.

Hendel R. "The Exodus in Biblical Memory," Journal of Biblical Literature. 120 (2001): 601-622.

Hoffmeier JK. Israel in Egypt : The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.

Hughes J. Secrets of the Times: Myth and History in Biblical Chronology. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1990.

Kloppenborg JS. Excavating Q. Augsburg Fortress Publishers: 2000.

Lemche NP. Early Israel: Anthropological and Historical Studies on the Israelite Society Before the Monarchy. Leiden: Brill Academic Publishing, 1985.

Lemche NP. The Canaanites and Their Land: The Idea of Canaan in the Old Testament. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1991.

Lemche NP. The Israelites in History and Tradition. Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1998.

Levenson JD. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993.

Schweitzer A. The Quest for the Historical Jesus. Augsburg Fortress Publishers: 2000.

Whitelam KW. The Invention of Ancient Israel: the Silencing of Palestinian History. London: Routledge, 1996.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:04 AM 
Bridge Dweller

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:03 PM
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Wow. Color me impressed. I feel like I'm in my college classes. :)


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