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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:08 PM 
10 Years? God im old!
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http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/edi ... Model-Died

Basically, this guy is trying to say that Subscription Based MMOs are about to die and at the end of the article suggests that 'pay as you go' or micro-transaction MMOs are more likely to succeed.

In response to the article, EA Mythic General Manager Mark Jacobs posted this on the Warhammer Alliance Forums (the 'Official' Unoffical Warhammer Online Forum):

Quote:
Folks,

I like Dana, smart guy but he's wrong here. Here's what it boils down to, if you make a great game, people will pay to play it. If you make a crappy game, people will not pay to play it. I've heard all this talk before (one advantage of making online games for 20 years) and this is just "The Model WILL Change - Version 4.0" whether it was the monthly model, the ad-based model, the hourly model, etc., been there/seen/done that. The only real difference today than the past is the number of other options out there. The subscription-based model isn't on life support (even without WoW's numbers) but today's consumers will not pay a monthly subscription for bad games (and they shouldn't). All you have to do is look at consumer/critical reaction to the MMOs that have come out in the last 6 years and you won't find any example of both a highly rated MMO (mid 80s+) that didn't have good to great subscription numbers. The mere fact that the vast majority of MMOs that have been in development have either failed to be released or were bad games does not imply a fault with the model but rather a fault within the development community. It's as foolish as saying that the movie business is dead, dead, dead after a bad year or two. We've got to make games that people actually want to play and stick with and I know they will. I won't promise that we'll see WoW numbers anytime soon from any other game but you don't need those numbers to be very successful. That's one reason I have never talked about getting those kind of numbers for WAR, it's not going to happen.

As always, your mileage may vary but I'll happily go on record to say that if we produce a great game, well-received by players/critics, our numbers will make EA very happy and prove that the sub model is alive and well.

As an FYI, when we were developing DAoC, all the publishers in the industry told us that the subscription model was dead. We were told that EQ was an aberration and the failure of AC to even come close to EQ's numbers as well as the failure of other MMOs in development proved that. We should be looking at doing ad-supported games, that's where the future is! So, bugger off Mythic, DAoC will fail and people will never, ever buy MMOs like they do PC or console-based games, just won't happen. Any of this sound familiar? And as we all know, they were just a little bit wrong about that. As far as I'm concerned this debate is just that debate all over again repackaged for 2008.

Mark


I pretty much agree with what Mark as to say on this one. I'll pay for a good game, hence as to why I still pay to play WoW...because regardless of 'issues' I have with certain aspects I will enjoy playing it. When I tire of it I'm fairly sure there will be another game that will take the $15 bucks out of my pocket that I would've spent on booze or used Gameboy Advance games.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:31 PM 
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Do you mind reposting the original article?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:44 PM 
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He made a few good points, but he's off target in his subject matter.

It's not that the subscription model has died. It's that it's not as viable when you have something like WoW dominating the market.

The problem is the SECOND subscription. This is the Ferrari/Lamborghini problem, but on a smaller scale. Most people who buy Ferraris, Lambo, Aston Martins, Bentley. Rolls Royce.....they buy one. You have to decide which one you like the most, then you get it. Later, if you build up more wealth, you get a second super-luxury car. In that market, most of us can afford one super-luxury car, but not two.

Take that problem to MMOs. Most of us are willing to spend $15 a month on one game, but fewer of us are going to spend $30 for two, and even fewer of us spend $45 for three. So we make choices. Now, those of us on Lanys board are your above-average gamer......by posting in this thread and by being here I imagine most of us have the experience of at least 2 MMOs....EQ and WoW. For most of us, I'm sure that list is even longer, with DAOC, AC, EQ2, FFXI, etc.....

But that's not the market, at least not today. Even if EVERYONE that played EQ, UO, the old MMO games played WoW, that would make up less than 1/4 of their player base. So most people playing WoW today are playing in their first MMO. So for them......if they are happy with WoW, why pay $15 for another game? Most of these are your supposed "casual gamers"......they already don't have time to play a second game, so why shell out $15 a month for something you might play once a week? And take your time away from WoW? It may not be a money issue so much as a time allocation issue.

Going back to EQ for us.....for me EQ was a good game, but not great. They benefited from having little competition. However, how many of us gave something else a try while we played EQ? I personally tried out DAOC and FFXI while I was playing EQ. Now let's fast forward to today, for those of us playing WoW.......since you have played WoW, how many of you have kept subscriptions to a second MMO, like EQ2, COH, FFXI, etc? I personally only subscribe to WoW now, and even then it's a bit of a waste of moeny given my play times......and I'm someone who's actually played the "old school" MMOs. A lot of people I know that play WoW now, the ones I've "hooked" to the game in my circle of friends, have never, ever played a MMO before. They play WoW far more than I do now.....and they know NOTHING about these other genres like Warhammer or Conan. To them, Warhammer is complete nerdspeak, and Conan was Arnold Scharzeneggar in some old movie. So 1) they are happy playing WoW, a game they would have NEVER tried before had someone (like me) not suggested it to them (again, Warcraft meant nothing to them, neither did Blizzard), and 2) they have no time to play another game. So what compelling reason do they have to even try another MMO if they are currently happy with WoW?

WoW has pretty much killed the subcription market for most other games. The bar is raised very high now. If you are planning to launch a subscription-based MMO, you had better hope 1) your product is actually something worth playing, that will actually make someone playing WoW switch, or that 2) WoW screws up in some way as to send people looking for another game.

#1 and #2 is what did EQ in, imo. Until that happens with another product, not many people, at least not millions, are going to be willing to shell out money monthly for 2 MMOs. Thousands, maybe even tens or hundreds of thousands, will play 2 MMOs, but if we are talking millions like WoW, then I think the current market proves only 1 such game is sustainable. The good news is you don't need millions, heck you probably dont even need 300,000 to be profitable, but the fact is to launch a subcription-based MMO in the face of WoW is an unenviable task indeed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:49 AM 
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It's not just that monthly subscription. There is also that initial $50 bucks they can collect. I have accounts for damn near every MMO, and it takes a couple clicks and a CC to reactivate and be playing again. They can also grab a $30 expansion cost if they can attract people to reactivate. SOE has done an interesting job with this by luring folks back with incentives to play free for a bit and get the taste again.

The average person can only focus on 1-2 MMO's at a time, and those are their active subscriptions. There is no penalty in putting an account into cold storage.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:51 AM 
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my wow server is known for pvp 5boxing with one keyboard, but that's not worth 5 subscriptions + i'm jealous zomg they don't even loot their corpses and use quest gear mostly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:45 AM 
10 Years? God im old!
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He did make a few good points throughout the article, I won't disagree there. Where I see the flaws in his diatribe is the fact that he's focusing too much on WoW (being the 800 pound Gorilla it is) as being the central cause of the issue, which is only half true.

Blizzard is McDonalds and WoW is the Big Mac. At that, the Big Mac is on the Value menu.

This is the best example I can give as to where WoW succeeds where others fail...

One of my former bosses was going to be out for a number of weeks due to medical reasons. Because he's in his late 40s, wife works, and only child is grown up & living away from home, he was getting rather bored during his time off waiting for his surgery (a feeling I know all too well). So rather then continue playing Online Poker, he went to Walmart and picked up WoW. Now, he knew that several of us at the office played but he'd never really shown any particular interest in playing himself as he was unfamiliar with (basically) anything to do with any Blizzard games (or online games unrelated to poker). He bought it, installed it, picked his server (a pvp server at that, I guess he liked the name), created his first character (a gnome rogue), and began to play. When he came back to work, which was about 3 weeks after he'd started playing, he was already level 45 and had a pretty decent working knowledge of his class/play mechanics. To add the frosting to the captain casual cake, he began to insult me (in a playful manner of course) because I'm a hunter and he 'hates getting ganked by hunters'.

After having a few laughs about the whole thing, it made me think about the current state of MMOs. The article talks about the numbers. 500k+ Subscribers at the high point of Everquest, why? Not because it was the only game in town, but the only game worth throwing $15.00 a month at. What you can do in WoW (see example above) could never have been done in EQ, no matter how hard you tried. SWG, why was it a failure? I don't know...maybe because Lucas Arts (and Lucas Licensing Ltd) wouldn't allow Sony to use 99% of the material they wanted, the game was broken as hell, and it was rushed from beta to store shelves faster then the Millennium Falcon can make the Kessal Run...all on the premise that you can 'be a jedi'.

Now the low blow in this article to me is where he insults Mythic, claiming that DAoC wasn't a success based on its total numbers compared to EQ and its steady decline in subscriptions because of WoW, but also where he says that Mythic is relying on its experience with DAoC combined with the backing of EA and the Warhammer license to 'break through' (or basically to crawl out from underneath WoW's huge ass shadow). He then goes on to say that Mbj (Mark Jacobs) "wants WAR to be the second largest subscription MMO available, behind WoW". I keep a pretty close tab on Warhammer Online news (not because I'm a fan or player of the tabletop/figure game, in fact I've never played it before and know close to nothing about the lore) and not once has Mbj ever claimed that...ever. The closest thing he's ever been quoted in saying is "I won't promise that we'll see WoW numbers anytime soon from any other game but you don't need those numbers to be very successful. That's one reason I have never talked about getting those kind of numbers for WAR, it's not going to happen.".

A few of us old folks are the exception to the rules because obviously most of us aren't your average gamer, and some of us may pay for more then 1 (or 2) subscription based games. But I'm pretty sure that none of us who do pay for 1 REALLY GOOD game (like I still think WoW is, despite its flaws) and 1 REALLY SHITTY game. One of the real beauties of WoW is that its one of the very few games that you can put down (or cancel your subscription) for a time, play something else, and come back later...to which in most cases you haven't missed a step (unless you were once in a raiding guild farming Tier 5 and now your guild is farming Tier 10 and fighting the Demi-God of Murloc's in the Plane of Aaaaaughibbrgubugbugrguburgle!).

Anyway..my 2cp

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ps...Inc Khameir, King of the Murlocs....RwlRwlRwlRwl RwlRwlRwlRwl!!!!....the suit was a gift from a friend

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:17 PM 
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You do hit a couple key points.
By not having a steep learning curve, it is easier for first time MMO players to get in on the action. I love that Mr. T commercial for WoW, with his "Night Elf Mohawk" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJE5TH5jhc ) in that it doesnt matter if he has any of the lingo correct, as long as it's fun for him to play. Initially I scorned WoW for the cartoonish graphics instead of the previous model of realistic graphics, but in hindsight it was genius allowing them to be playable on more systems.

How was it having your former boss tease you about WoW? Was it like the first time your parents tried to use slang by calling you dude or something? The other day at Olive garden the waiter was having an in depth conversation about guildwars with a family, (dad, mom, son) who all played.

I wonder if all of us folks pining for the "EQ1" days are the same as folks who continue to champion the superiority of betamax over VHS despite that the world has moved on to DVD's?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:49 PM 
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The Mr. T commercial was great. I liked the Shatner one also.

It will be interesting to see as WoW becomes more mainstream how that will affect the subscription base. It's hard to imagine the game getting more popular than it already is (9 million subscribers I think?), but I'm sure that the commercials are just going to bring even more people to the game. I would be interested to know how the commercials are affecting their subscription numbers, ie pre-commercial release, and the numbers say 6 months after the commercials have been out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:07 PM 
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Press release was issued yesterday I believe, quoted 10 million worldwide, 2.5 million in NA.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:45 PM 
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I posted a column on this just last week, this same specific article on warcry:

http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=332

Quote:
Having been a regular MMO player for ten years now, I’ve paid my fair share of monthly fees for the hobby. I still remember when they announced that EverQuest 1 was getting a price increase from $9.89 to $12.99, and from there to where it has been sitting for a while, at $14.99. This was never an alien thing to me as I spent my years hopping from one game to the next. It was just a fact of life if you were into the MMO scene.

I stumbled across this article on The World of Warcraft Warcry Network this past week, and felt that it was a very interesting take on what seems to be the next step in the evolution of the MMO genre. And while I personally wouldn’t go out and say that last year was the swan’s call for subscription based models, I do think that pretty soon here companies are going to have to start looking at different models to support their games.

A number of companies in the East, Korea, China and the like, have been pushing micro-transaction business models for a number of their games. What that means, is that instead of having one base fee that you pay every month, you can opt to use real money to purchase special in game currency, such as Gala-Nets gpotatos, which can then be used to purchase things in game that help do things like level faster, get better equipment, or even help with trade skills. And while a lot of us Westerners see this as a certain group of people being able to get a “leg up” based on their lot in real life, I’m not so sure that I agree.

While it’s true that those players who opt to purchase things like “experience potions” and ” weapon upgrades” with real life cash will be at a certain advantage over those that don’t, a lot of games out there with this business model do allow trading of those “Cash Shop” bought items to be traded between players who do purchase in game currency, and those who do not. That way if you can’t afford the uber sword of Cha-Ching, you know that you still have access to it if you have enough normal in game currency.

While that business model has taken off over in the East, in the West it has been very slow to catch on. Arguably Sony Online Entertainment was the first to step into the micro-transaction ring, with their Station Exchange servers in EverQuest 2, where players can purchase items from other players using an eBay like system, as well as purchase in game gold with real life dollars and wholly leveled characters themselves. They are also currently developing The Agency, in which they have stated that they are going to try to use micro-transactions, and possibly a “Velvet Rope” model, wherein players who want to, for a nominal fee, are granted access to items and areas that players who don’t choose to upgrade their account level cannot.

Other companies that are trying to bring this model to the Western shores, are companies like Acclaim and Flagship studios. Acclaim, with its Acclaim Coins system allows you to use real life currency to buy items in game (I’ve seen Acclaim Coins cards at my local Target), while Flagship uses a “Velvet Rope” model for its Hellgate London game. In fact, Flagship Seattle is also working on Mythos, which is being developed as a free-to-play, cash shop title. It was originally created as a net code test for Hellgate London, and has turned into one of the best action RPGs since D2 and Titan’s Quest.

The problem is, is that besides Hellgate, whose rope model hasn’t been playing out all that well from what I hear, is that a lot of the games using them are brought to our shores, and not developed here. And while I don’t have a problem with that, we haven’t really seen a Western developed title that was designed to use this system from the ground up. And frankly, most MMO players see the free-to-play games coming over from the East as nothing other than grindfests. Which a lot of times they are. Cubizone’s Perfect World is one the best Free-to-play with cash shop games that I have seen around, and is closest to what a Western developed game would be like. It is currently in open beta.

While I do feel that down the road the micro-transaction market is going to be the next big thing, until we actually see a big name, western develop title hit the pipes, most of us are just going to write it off. But with systems like the afore mentioned Acclaim coins, and heck, even Xbox Live and the Playstation Network, you better bet on seeing something within the next 5 years. Maybe The Agency will be it, but I think that a free or bargain bin MMO utilizing the Xbox Live Marketplace is what it is going to take for everyone to finally stand at attention.


I think it's going to be a while before F2P models really take off, especially with games like WoW still earning great cash. But if rumors are true and EA is thinking of a higher point sub for WAR, I think that might signal the decline.

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