For a while the MMO community seemed to be waiting for Vanguard to come in on a white horse and save the day but that came and passed without really leaving an impact. I was kind of hoping it would be a good game but didn't have high hopes after seeing it demoed a few times and trying the beta for a short while.

The more I see about Conan the less impressed I am. Is there anything that will set this game apart from the crowd? It just seems like another polypusher to me.I could be wrong about that one. I hope I am wrong because Conan is one of my favorite characters.

What about Warhammer? I tried it briefly at PAX a few years ago. Not really long enough to get a good idea of if it will be a worthwhile game in the long run. It felt like playing WoW with the races and classes tweaked slightly and yes I know which franchise has been around longer.

Is there any other game out there now or on the way that has a chance of being a good game? I can't think of any other confirmed MMO's that are in development. Bioware has something up their sleeve. Rumors seem to point at a KotOR style starwars MMO. Could be fun I guess. When I first heard Bioware was making an MMO I personally was hoping for something set in the Baldur's Gate universe. There might still be something to that Elder Scrolls MMO rumor. God knows the worlds Bethesda built in the past felt like single player MMO's just from the world size, character creation and develpoment, and the choose your own adventure style quests. I guess we'll see where that goes.

Am I missing anything? I really am craving a good new MMO and I just feel like there isn't any hope for that in the near future.

Tabula Rasa will be the Everquest killer.

I'm not really excited about anything. I would like something along the lines of X3 in MMO form. Ever since the days of wing commander....

Lol.

Honestly nothing peaks my interest at the moment. WoW is as good as it's going to be for a good while yet.

Are you still that upset I wont let you play with Oryx anymore?

I don't think I ever was, Givin. Did I say I was or make any indications to that effect?

To be honest since you asked, I don't mind. You guys play way too heavy for my schedule -- but it would have been nice to have played w/ Oryx again and talked to people and stuff.

I just posted the link as a joke, but you can try to rib me. It's ok. =)

Nah it's fine. Oryx didn't want you around anyway so it wouldn't have mattered.

You're welcome to get a second opinion if you want. It will give us something to laugh about later.

I honestly wish you would stop posting on issues concerning gaming. Your opinions aren't educated and heavily full of bias. You never come off as knowing even half of what you are saying. The only thing anyone gets from you talking is we are convinced that yes, you do indeed own one of each system.

As far as Oryx not wanting me around, that's fine -- I still know a few people who I played with originally in Oryx around 2001/2002 and in WoW for a short time in 2004 that would be fine with it but I know all the new wave pseudo-Oryx folks don't give a care about me. What's your point? People don't like me? Fine. I get it.

However, I play games and therefore are entitled to hold opinions. Sorry if you don't like them. It's not like I'm missing out on anything because of them. If I want a game, I play it. If I hate it, I say it blows, move on, and there is not a thing you can say about it will change, diminish, or invalidate my opinions.

And you know what's hilarious? I work in the industry you would give your left nut for. I didn't bs my way in either, I worked hard for it and interviewed and busted my ass for it. So don't tell me that I have no idea about video gaming or the business.

Obviously my opinions mean something, to someone, and they liked me well enough and thought I could be a part of an amazing team, in one way or another.

You know what? Metroid Prime 3 sucked imo. I hate the Halo series. Starcraft is lame. Wii Sports? Gay unless your drunk.

Fuck off if you don't like them, don't read my posts -- no one is forcing you to. Least of all me. I don't see a giant

GIVIN READ MY POSTS GIVIN READ MY POSTS

Anywhere.

(I await your next post in which you will state that no one wants me to post here, no one wants to game with me, my opinions are invalid regardless of what they are, how I brag about being well off compared to others on this board, how I own consoles I hate, blah blah blah. Typical Givin rhetoric. Or maybe you'll just ignore me completely. WHO KNOWS! Time will tell! =D)

Anyhow, I'm on my lunch break and I'm working on my study guide for HST498. I will talk to you later honbro!

Here we go again with the "I work in the industry but I can't say what I do or who I do it for" crap.

Oops, had to cut that short, Billy Gates just dropped by my office to ask me if I had any new ideas. Anyway, nobody is going to take you serious (assuming some still do) when you try to tell them that Starcraft and the Halo series suck. Seriously.

ps: breathing sucks!

I'm part of the intellectual property group for our in-house legal team for a video game development company. No, I'm not a gopher, and I do work that impacts the livelihood of our property. (Current and in the future.)

I won't give away the studio or my practice group's name because I know there are vindictive people out there that would love to see me fired and have ways to make it happen. I don't care if you believe me. I'm not going to jeopardize my job to spite someone on the internet.

It's happened before, and it would happen again.

You're right though Neesha, it may be more appropriate to just say I dislike the games, and TO ME, they suck. I know they're very popular, but, I still hate'em. I don't really care either way if someone approves of my opinion or not. It's still as valid as anyone elses.

You're a consultant that could easily be replaced by a copy of the simplest economics book or a printout of Aristotle's Aim of Man.. You hold zero power other than being a yes man on the corporate cock of a division that has zero impact on how games are made, but rather responsible for covering up all the fuck ups from upper management. You are about the equivalent on the importance totem pole as the janitorial staff.

In 5 years, you will be bringing me coffee.

In 5 years I hope I'd have graduated from the law school I applied and got in to for the Fall of 2008. So no, that coffee thing won't happen unless I get addicted to heroin and fail out of law school. Could happen -- probably won't though.

Look, I understand you have a passion for video gaming but don't try to put down my opinions and try to put it past me that yours are objectively factual and right. It's one thing to disagree and think I'm a retard, but it's another to attack me and tell me what I (don't) know. I never attack you. I respect you even though you shit on me constantly, and I don't care if you care. You're a good gamer and you have good insights on stuff. Shrug.

I'm not some corporate shill, and I never claimed to have influence over the things we create, though I am responsible for protecting our intellectual property. There's only 4 of us here. 1 person doing what I am, 1 file clerk, 1 patent agent and 1 patent attorney.

File clerks do the shitty work, fyi. That's the "entry" level position.

2 sugars.

What's the job that you seem to be aspiring to be at in 5 years, givin?

The ideal path to take is to get in on a project in a developmental, pre release stage. It holds more weight and looks better on a resume when you are considered for other positions.

It's the perfect path to getting the shit grunt work out of the way. Anybody can be a code monkey.

Easily I see myself landing a lead dev position somewhere. The market is saturated with people looking for entry level coding shit local to them. The shortage however, is in people willing to relocate for long term commitment projects.

The dream position however is R&D, or the guys you never hear about that are locked in a room who have the only job to think shit up and pass it over to the little unimportant shits like xskycrasherx so they can jump through all the hoops.

My position heavily relies on R&D. Hahahaha. So funny you'd say that!

My job specifically entails researching patents through the USPTO and working with the R&D group within our "firm" to ensure something we develop, think of, or look into (or even lease) has a successful degree of patentability or high probability to incorporation to our prior patents -- or we figure out a way around it or we will prosecute a patent if something is in our way.

It's so funny you think I'm such a small fry. Ha. Whatever. I admit, I may a middle-management type position but I'm not on the shit-bag end of things either. =D

Thus, jump through the hoops.

Dance little marionette dance.

With an attitude like that about your peers and subordinates you'll never hold down your "dream" job or everyone will talk shit about you behind your back and try to f you over whenever they can. =P

And whether you like it or realize it, I'm pretty much above where you're at career-wise right now, bud. Ya know, I can give references out. (I write killer letters of recommendation too!) =) PM me if you're interested! My word would help you in your desired career path. You should know that in this industry experience in gaming helps a lot. =)

Late

Listen, no one cares what you do in this context.

You could PROVE to me that you're heavily involved in super duper gaming shits, and prove to me that Givin's job is maintaining erections at the zoo for sperm samples.

Guess who's opinion holds more weight with me on games? Givin's. Why? Because even when I do not agree with his opinions in gaming (and there's many times I don't because I don't always like what he likes) he makes good arguments, backs up his opinion, and has sound reasoning. He's also enjoyable to read in that it's often amusing, not difficult to slog through.

The only deviance I've ever seen in that was over Vanguard, which people took him to task for, and which IMHO he defended himself well. I still happen to hold the opinion he was a little fanboi over it due to other interests...but everyone was ABLE to say that because we were all aware of his potential biases.

Your arguments, whatever they are, have to stand on their own merits. Sure...we're more inclined to pay heed to a new theory in physics when it comes from Dr. Hawking versus the Time Cube Guy, but Dr. Hawking can't defend his theory with, 'I'm Motherfucking Stephen Hawking who the fuck are you!?'

Or for the analogy to hold true 'I can't say who I am, but my ass has done more physics than you, I've done X Y and Z blah blah blah...'

Don't get me wrong, there's times when expertise does come into play. And in discussions people often bring their personal experiences into the discussion...but that's got to stand on its merits too. And whether intentional or not, the claims of expertise you bring to the discussion comes off poorly. It's not so much a 'well in my experience I saw ...' but rather a 'LOLZ u sit in ur shitty basemnets'

One additional note...shouldn't you be working? Hehe I couldn't resist since you rant about it so much.

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The word of a closet jockey pushing papers all day? Such power this mystery company that can never be named must give their employees. Does your boss answer to the moniker of Mr. Clause?

You're a simple in service provider. You have no sway over any influence of who can get in what door. I can get an equal weighted recommendation by asking the guy at the counter at McDonalds if he prefers a number 2 or number 8.

And seriously Skycrasher...you're fanatic about maintaining anonimity but wanna give a letter of recommendation? That would tend to expose you. I'm not saying it's weird to want to keep that stuff private, as public as I am on some things there are many things I never talk about on teh interwebs...but c'mon.

Additionally if you've ever posted from work, anyone on this board can find who you work for (without bribing an admin to see an IP...which of course we'd never do). If I host an image myself and you load it, I can see who accessed that image, and sync it close enough with when you post to figure it out. That's if you ever browse at work. And that's only one dumb way to do it.

So if you're paranoid about malicious people fucking with your professional life...a good idea is to stop bringing it up.

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Let's see the Mobygames.com rap-sheet.

A number 2 is a Quarter Pounder with Cheese Value Meal. I highly recommend it (sans onions). It will run you exactly $4.75.

Honestly Skycrasher if you are so afraid that people here might try to come after you in real life for whatever reason why do you come here and remind them about it? I'm not trying to be mean or anything I don't know you well enough to care about that. I really don't think anyone here is that vindictive, I could be wrong I guess. I know that I stepped on more then a few toes posting on these boards years ago and no one cares enough anymore to come after me. Why don't they care anymore? I'd like to think it is because I grew up enough to stop making retarded posts and stepped back from the boards a while. That is really all it would take. You could stop coming here for three to six months and if you even wanted to come back after that there wouldn't be as much bad blood in the air. Unless you came back and immediately started jabbing people in the eye again. Hell if you would save your posts instead of posting them right away then come back in an hour or two and read them again and see if you still feel like posting them that would help you a lot.

About the original topic. I forgot to mention Pirates of the Burning Sea. This game seems to have been in development forever. It looks like it is finally about ready to go into beta. It does look fun I guess. I'm just not sure how long you can sail around shooting cannonballs at people before it gets old. I'm not sure how end game content will be handled. It could turn out like eve online set in the past instead of the future which would definitely be interesting.

Anyway go ahead and go back to flaming each other as Givin has already answered my question.

I was waiting for the "STOP SHITTING ON RYDIUS'S DREAM!" warcry...oh well.

Anyway...

xskycrasherx I quite honestly have a really hard time believing that you work for anyone of even minor relevance in the Video Game Industry due to the fact that 99.9% of the companies out there these days don't give a shit if you tell people where you work so long as by telling them you aren't 'giving away confidential information'. Having worked in the banking industry, you follow a similar set of rules. Besides, Tarot is right. If you really do work 'at' some game company your IP address would be registered with that company...not exactly a huge corporate secret.

As for your opinions on games. All I ever see is 'this game sucks' or 'I played that and it sucks' or 'the Wii is worthless'. Its a repetitive theme of pessimism most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge pessimist myself...but even I can find the good in some of the crappy games released in a past few years (I saw this as I've boycotted other games besides WoW until I beat Chrono Trigger again). Givin may be the loudest voice here, but he's also one of the more well informed ones. I read just about every game review (of a major title) that comes out, try out a good % of the new games, and pay close attention to the market as its something of interest to me. What stops me from commenting on it on a regular basis is that I have a tendency to be long winded and there are just somethings I like to keep to myself. On that, Givin and I (and a few others) have regular discussions about what we'd like to see in games or where we'd like to see the industry go...and we don't always agree. Which is fine because it shows that we have our own informed opinions.

On the original topic of discussion...

I hate to be a doomsayer, but Vanguard needed to follow a very specific path to be successful...and it took the WRONG fork of that path. I blame it on Brad.

Conan needs work. A LOT OF WORK. I recently got to mess around with a Beta build at my friends house and I wasn't impressed one bit. Being a pixel pusher is actually a fairly accurate statement about the game, as it is a very 'pretty' game in terms of the environment. Other then that...yeah. If FunCom thinks that this game will see a March release they're sadly mistaken (unless they have the whole dev team working 80 hour weeks, which I don't see happening).

Pirates of the Burning Sea 'looked' like it could be fun in a very limited way. I say limited because I got my beta invite about 3 days before the beta was over and got maybe 3 hours of playtime in before the servers were taken down for maintenance and I just went back to play WoW.

Warhammer is probably the only game I'm personally looking forward to seeing. I'm not getting my hopes up that it'll be the great white hope of the MMO market, but it definitely has got my attention.

As for the whole Bioware MMO...I hope that IF they are working on a KOTOR MMO, they take their time to develop it. Being that SWG disappointed me greatly (though I did sell my account for nearly $300 due to the Jedi unlock before they changed the whole system around) Bioware would need to do a masterful job to make me want to try another Star Wars MMO.

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Didn't a bunch of people think Vanguard was going to be great because we knew people working on it? Does anyone honestly believe that if and when Givin makes it into the gaming world that he will develop the next EverQuest?

Get over it people. There is no next EverQuest. Givin is not the savior of the gaming world.

Personally, I have no idea why anyone with half a goddamn brain would want to get into the gaming industry. Everyone who knows anything knows that the majority of people involved in making a game get paid absolute shit wages and the developers are the ones who really profit. Yeah, it's cool to be working making video games, but is it really worth being able to barely afford a one bedroom studio on the barrio?

Too many people see Brad driving around in his Ferrari or whatever the shit it is he drives and think they're the next big man on campus. That ship has sailed folks.

Speaking of talking out one's ass...

You're right, I have no idea. I don't have friends that work in the industry.

I won't say that I'd play a game just because Givin was involved in it but I would at least check it out. The same as I would check out a game if anyone else from Lanys was involved in it. As far as looking for the next Everquest: I really think what was great about Everquest was that it was the first game of its kind, thats why we were drawn to it. You can't be the next first, you have to be the first at something else. What is the plateau that will define the real next generation of online gaming? If we knew that someone would be building it.

Well, no disrespect, but everyone also thought having Miggent on the Vanguard team would equal good things. Outside of the names similar to old Lanys folks (which is still cool as shit), I don't think he mattered in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to think that people want to get into making games because they have a passion for games not because they think they are going to get super rich.

The entertainment software industry is really no different than most. You start at the bottom and work your way up. The only people that don't make money are the entry levels, the temps, etc.

Givin is doing it the right way. Get a degree and start as an engineer.

I took a totally different path, I started in testing right out of High School. I had my share of temp jobs and layoffs, but after 10 years, my resume includes some of the best selling video games of all time. Clout is something you get from being there, that's all it takes. Once you get in the door, you'll know if you've got what it takes or not. Having gamed with Givin for years, I can tell he knows what he's talking about. He has the passion and the knowledge; not to mention the ability to break things down in a very informed way, the way a designer WOULD. All he needs is to get in the door and he will do something.

Not that I want to sit here and nutswing on Givin all day, I'm just calling it how I see it. As someone who has actually been there.

I kind of miss Rydius where did he go?

_________________
"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

The programmers make a decent wage, it's just not much higher than what they would make elsewhere in the private sector. The real money comes in when a game in their studio hits big and they benefit though stock options/profit sharing which most studios have set up for their folks.

Why not take a job doing something you enjoy? Some of the graphic designers/programmers I've known at places like Red Storm and Epic are making a killing now working for Goggle and the NSA. Game design is on the cutting edge of that area.

Sarissa Candyangel

I'm not sure which friends you have that work in games, but maybe they are in the wrong jobs. My ex-husband is environmental artist in the games industry. He's worked mostly for smaller independant studios, though he's now at an Activision studio. And while 70,000/yr + benefits and the occasional royalty may not exactly make you rich in CA, it's not to shabby for someone who never went to college either.

If I do or do not is for me to decide and prove. Just because you are fucking jaded with gaming doesn't mean there is a lack of innovation and interest in development. What a fucking crock.

I do not want to be a savior. An innovative mind, yes. I could give two shits if I make a shitpile of money. Do you fly choppers because you make a shitload of money?

I know you are better acquainted with Adam than I am on a personal level. That is fine. Since you do know him so well, you could ask him about his Greystone dungeon design work in Vanguard I believe it was and how it was considered one of the best laid out ideas the game had. Want to know why? Because it was thought up by people that still had a passion for developing cool shit that got paid next to nothing for doing it. He doesn't do that shit for the money. He does it so he can look and see something he created.

That is what I want. I want to design and develop things that people will walk up to me at conventions, cons or in the supermarket and say "Hey, that was fucking badass man." I just choose the gaming industry as my canvas.

Any regular dev can design the next Everquest, because it's already been painted before. It is just a simple paint by numbers job. Those that want to excel in the craft know that to do so, sometimes its a must to color outside the lines.

Yeah i miss alot of the old school original Oryx guys, Calten, Ryd, Mags, Morgorath, Dypsomaniac and alot of the others, would love to know what they are all up to myself.

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Givin just "moved" me.

That's pretty cool man, I have that same passion, but for a different field. I understand where you're coming from. Not everyone does, and you're right, a lot of people do just do shit for money, and don't care about the end result except the bank register balance.

Good luck. =)

I applaud your effort Tim.

I know that Adam designed some kickass shit for Vanguard, but I also know that the piss poor work of other people working on the game made it a complete pile of shit. That and the desire at the top to put out an infinished game for some stupid reason.

Hopefully you can get on at a studio where they want to produce something spectacular and it actually works out. Like you said, I've become jaded. I didn't enjoy WoW like many of you do. I got to the point where I was fed up with the cookie cutter bullshit where everyone had the same exact same shit because of instances. That and a lack of real community as I saw it made me give it up and it was for the best.

When you get to where you want to be, create a game where aquiring the top shit actually means something. Having the top tier shit in EQ actually felt like you did something. Beating other guilds to KT, Vulak, or Sleepers were the times I really enjoyed. Competition should be what games are all about. Competition amongst people, not just competition between a bunch of people and an NPC. My 2 cents.

And yes, I was frustrated by Adam's situation. He got to work on Vanguard for what I felt was a subpar salary given the fact that they were located in San Diego. I feel that even though studios can feed off of the fact that a lot of people want to work in the gaming industry and will take whatever they give them to do it, they should compensate their people fairly.

Best of luck to you and I wish you the utmost success. I still consider you a friend that I enjoyed gaming with immensely.

Just don't give us more "Tier" armor sets! I don't want to look at 5 mages with the same full set of armor!

I just posted on another board that I think what might have ruined Everquest was armor dyes. It seems silly on the surface but you used to be able to get a sense of what someone had accomplished in Everquest by looking at what they were wearing. Sure the armors didnt have unique graphics but if you played long enough you knew what most things were by their color. In WoW everything seems to have a unique graphic however as mentioned it just melds together into a sort of visual vomit. Armor with particle effects pouring out of it? Congratulations, you just going to replace it in a month anyway.

I've been bouncing around a lot of games since my EQ1 days. Things I find interesting are the differnt game play styles. The grafics really only are a 1-2 day thing for me. The game play is what really captures me.

That being said. 5 years grinding in EQ1 really was enough of that type of game play. LOTRO, Vanguard and WOW were fun for a few weeks, but just wasn't much different than the target / autoattack / trigger attack. SWG was interesting because of the crafting/economy system but that didn't last long. DDO has a fun combat system but is limited size wise. Tabula Rasa, meh... Many other FPS out there I enjoy more, though I did like Planetside when I played it a couple months. The idea of mixing FPS/MMO is still a valid one and maybe this is it, but from what I seen in beta... I'll pass for now.

The game I'm currently working on, I swore 4 years ago I'd never play because I thought the leveling system was retarded... EVE. It's slow going right now, but think I can get into. The leveling system while irritating will definately give me the extra time I need to get RL stuff done. Giving it a try.

i would like a good MOFPS. I am good at shooting people... not so good at camping for a SMR.

But is there still not competition is so far as being first for your faction, first for your server, first for your 'continent' and finally first world wide? I was always of the opinion that EQ favored guilds who had looser schedules and not necessarily the superior group of players; often times they were, sure, but it wasn't guaranteed.

In Everquest you definitely had your time in the 'spotlight' longer due to locking other people out of that content and extending the uniqueness of your gear but that's not something any of us are likely to ever see again due to the obvious downside. And even then, I think a reasonable case could be made that the ratio of 'uber' to not is about the same given how much larger the WoW servers are and that most factions have but a couple guilds doing the latest content.

So while my direct competition is in fact the NPC in front of me and organizing the players around me, what drives me to succeed is the desire to stay in front of the guy behind me and to catch up to the guy in front of me.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Harry Potter Online!

Seriously, with the series over, she might as well cash in while it's fresh. I would check it out.

For some reason that just gave me visions of The Matrix Online, except with witches and wizards.

They will have the 10-14 year old "We need this easier" market cornered from the start, so the rest of us probably won't have to deal with gimpifications and nerfs like we are used to. Aim low for the start and you won't dissapoint.

Engineering is the suck.
I started out wanting to do environmental to save the rain forests, then switched to EE when I found out I'd be managing a landfill and cleaning up hazardous waste. Then as an EE I jumped on the telecom train doing network engineering only to have that implode when the dot com bubble burst. (was lucrative and still is) Now I get to build network in unreasonable amounts of time, surrounded by folks who got into telecom who shouldn't fucking be in engineering, while riding the engineering roller coaster of love em hire em, and don't need em fire em. Although I believe that's the new work world order with employee's being commodities like a crate of oranges.

Do what you love even if it's not a lot of money, since the more you make the more you'll spend. I hope my daughter does something artistic, and eek out a comfortable existence with minor materialistic tendencies. Fear and debt are the new societal leashes of servitude. Want less materialistic things, and love what you do more. GOD I WISH I had gotten into programming, and gaming. God bless you folks chasing your dreams and not the $$$.

Excuse me as I stare at all my materialism to numb the empty abyss that is engineering.
To truly create or help others are the only worthwhile careers.

Unfortunately people fail to realize it doesn't matter how good of game devs you have or how talented of a team you have, if there isn't proper management support and vision then most projects still fail. One dumb shit in high power can easily ruin the work of a genius.

As far as VG...definitely wasn't the savior of the MMO world due to well documented issues but its still by far the funnest game for me at the moment. And for those that actually enjoy a good raiding experience APW past the entrance wing is pretty damn fun. Especially when you actually get to learn fights instead of have people go google the strats. Some unique challenges and as much as I hate small raid groups I must admit running with 18 makes optimizing your raid groups, strat and play even more important. Definitely not a game for everyone and definitely had more fuck ups then michael jackson's career but the game has alot of great qualities for some and has made VAST improvements and provides some of the more challenging raid content later on in APW that I have seen anywhere (if you haven't done it please god shut the fuck up and leave it at "my experience with VG sucked instead of talking about it as if you play it every day now)

I lol'd irl at the leader of 7D really enjoying winning mob races in the Velious Era.

As much as we hated each other back then (and still take cheapshots at each other now ), that really was the best part of EQ. Competitive balance made it great fun for competitive people, which most of us are. You really can't get much out of striving for the best when there are 10,000 guilds just like you (WoW) or no one else is playing (everything else).

I actually really liked (like? Not sure if they've changed this or not since I haven't played it in awhile) how EQ2 did this. They had the instanced mobs and raid instances where anyone could go and work on their raiding etc, but they also had world spawns raid mobs that you had to compete against other guilds for. So the better guild(s) would be able to get the world spawns and have their "leet" gear, while other guilds could take their time, plan their raids etc for similar but different gear.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)