Here's my opinion of various classes in Vanguard. I didn't play every class/race combo (obviously).

Sorcerers

This class still feels a little overpowered. Pretty much any race possible is fine with these guys. You'll want to put points into wisdom, intelligence, and endurance essentially. Endurance becomes extremely important as it's a relatively small pool and many spells depend on it later on.

NUKE NUKE NUKE THE NASTY MOBS! This class has the best nukes in the game, as they should. They also have extremely (overpowered) AoE spells. I've found that I can kill 3-6 mobs more easily with AoE than I can a single mob without it (at times). You can kill as many mobs with AoE as you want, as long as you can withstand the hits from them. The AoE is an instant cast, so no worries about spell interruption. (Stuns on the other hand...)

Essentially this class is good for solo, and will be great for fast group leveling especially with fellowship. The only difficult part will be finding enough linked mobs to AoE.

In PvP this class will pretty much own. Melee attacking you? AE them to death, plus your self buff has a decent low % chance of stunning your attacker. Ranged attacker on you? You have multiple instant casts that nuke + neg. affect. One is even a low DoT.

LOW LEVEL: Very easy to level up with this class, not too squishy.

NECROMANCER: Disappointed. Very very disappointed. I won't be playing this class on release, and necro is one of my fav. classes to play. The pets are pretty much sucky. The dps is low and shitty. You've got a wide variety of DoTs, but ...they're meh.

Basically a necromancer (IMHO) should have the spell range that this class currently has...if the pet is MUCH stronger. The abomination can tank pretty well (shouldn't die on you) but it can't hold agro for shit. Meaning that pretty quickly that mob will be on you. Sure you can snare and run around, or fear kite...but it's rather lame. The dps on your pet is shitty as well.

Lifetaps are meh. Basically this is a (very) slow leveler solo, and an okay grouping class. There's ghetto (very ghetto) mez, which helps in groups. The DoTs are useful on mobs that take a bit to kill. But really what kills you is that the shaman does everything you can do (minus mez) a hell of a lot better, and they're healers.

This class needs additional work that I'm not confident they'll get before release. I'm not saying don't play this class, or that it's unplayable. Neither is true. I just found that if you like healers + necro stuff...the shaman was better. The necro pets do get better at higher levels, if you stick with it.

Shaman One of my favorite classes in Vanguard. You can heal you can DoT, you can nuke, and you can wear medium armor. You can melee relatively decently. It's a fantastic all around class. You also get Call of Hero for dungeons (if the player is in range...which means pretty close to the dungeon).

They're medium-hard to level at low levels, but if you quest it's not that hard to solo them up. By the time you get your focus (at around level 15 I forget the exact level, you choose a focus, meaning bear, wolf or phoenix). Here's my understanding of the focus.

Phoenix (I've played it): You get a phoenix pet (high dps/low hp) which is an okay pet. Or you can become a phoenix yourself for additional bonuses. (Which is what I usually do). You can fly...which means you don't take fall damage, and you slowly go down from higher points. You can't fly 'up' though. You can get pretty high up if you launch from various places and travel. You can't attack things if you're not in range though. The bonus spell you get with this class is a direct damage fireball which has a long range to it. Very nice. Many players think this is the 'e-peen' focus since it's basically a 'battle shaman' focus.

Wolf (didn't play, talked to many): This is the must-go focus for healers. You can turn into a wolf, you get much faster travel speed, and you can stealth. Obviously the huge bonus here is on group/raid corpse runs. You can rez more easily if you sneak down and drag. Wolf pet is a mediocre pet and I never saw people using them.

Bear: Pet is low dmg/high hps, good taunt. Everyone considered this the shitty focus, and I only met one player who went with it. It basically makes you more survivable and the spells work accordingly AFAIK. Didn't play it, wouldn't consider it.

The one thing about focus is that no matter what people went with, they loved what they had. That tells me it's pretty balanced. I think for long term healers, wolf is the way to go. IMHO.

Healing...you're not the best healer, and certainly not the best buffer. You're a good healer though and can be the sole healer for a group without much problem. The expertise lies in being able to debuff and DoT mobs. If there's another healer in the group (cleric or blood mage) then IMO shaman goes to back up healer. Cleric should always be the primary healer if they're present.

Solo play at higher levels becomes easier, but shaman probably do best in group and duo situations.

ROGUE They seem to have done okay with this class. This is not a class I usually play so my opinion on it shouldn't really matter honestly. They seemed okay, but I didn't like the chaining you have to do to fight. I'm lazy and I don't really like combat chains.

Rogue poison was broken the entire time I played. Stealth worked okay, but you could not stealth from other players, which I hope they maintain in PvP (primarily because cheat progs pop it anyway, so why not put everyone on an even footing). Normal stealth is harder to see, and so gives a slight advantage in PvP anyway. Rogue combat chains do nasty dmg, and they're good DPS.

It's not a brainless class, and that's good. There will be no 'one button' rogues in the game. And they weren't highly common because again, requires some skill and attention to playing.

Not a class I'd play, but that's personal preference not because it sucks or anything.

PSI: This is basically an enchanter. They're beyond squishy at low levels. Very hard to level up solo...which is good. This isn't a solo class IMO. They're the best crowd control, and highly desireable in groups. Their dps was higher than my necros at higher levels.

I didn't play one to a high level (I think to like 12) so my opinion is based on people I played with. It's a good duo class, and a skill class (meaning you need skill to play it well IMO). EQ enchanters will find it familiar, and there's buffs similar to KEI. Very nice buffage, and an essential group class at various points.

BARD I never played this class, and wouldn't want to (personal preference) but I played with good bards off and on. They're the best pullers, and a tremendous class to have in group with you IF PLAYED WELL. A shitty bard is worse than useless.

Good dps with the right gear, best pullers I saw in the game, so-so crowd control (good when played well if only 1 add mob) and jesus pullers I mean just jesus.

I'll take a good bard in a group I'm in over any other class.

DISCIPLE I played this and didn't like it so dumped it pretty low level. They're good healers, they're kinda like a monk/healer combo. They have heal chains though that when built up over time are ungodly good. Eventually it causes so much hate they can't lose agro. They seemed a good backup healer, as they have to fight to do their heals as well. A good overall addition to the group, but not essential (but a good backup healer when played well).

Requires a lot of skill and paying attention to chains.

MONK Never played and what little I saw didn't impress me. Not a commonly played class which tells you something.

Druid Played after the revamp and it sucked so badly I dumped it. Only spell I had was a damage snare which was less than useless and my dps was shit. This class sucked donkey balls. Maybe it's improved, but I thought it blew.

Blood Mage: Caster/healer class (cloth). this is actually a decent class, but I didn't really like it personally. They're good healers though and most people who played them loved them. I can't put my finger on what I didn't like about it. Maybe because really the casting was kinda meh, it's cloth and I felt that shaman/cleric could do things better.

Seemed highly popular at one point when broken because you could essentially kill anything and not run out of mana/healing. That was fixed. They're a good healer because they're very mana efficient but being a cloth class, have to watch agro.

Worth trying if it appeals to you. I don't know enough about it to give a good overall other than, if you want to be a cloth caster with good heals, try it. highly desirable in groups because of healing efficiency.

RANGER Didn't play. Had good dps at one point then got kinda gimped. Very good with bow, decent buffs too. Medium armor IIRC only. With bow they seem to be pretty efficient in PvP from what I saw, lying on the ground...dead.

If you like EQ rangers you'll prolly like this class. Doesn't appeal to me so I don't know much about it. Only grouped with crappy ones, so they didn't impress me, but heard they can be very good.

TANK CLASSES

Didn't group with them much and they seemed to be broken (or not in the game) quite a bit. YMMV.

Cleric Seemed impressive, but that was due to Grimmier, who is IMHO a very good cleric. I had one but never played it really. The shaman appealed to me far more as it combined the 'best' of cleric + necro for me.

They can wear heavy armor, so-so dps, they can take hits. Best buffage (so it seemed) among healers, cons being not the most mana efficient healer. Good primary healer, probably best primary healer.

So that's it. =)

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Good run down Tarot. I am really bummed about the Necro. You helped me narrow it down to 2-3 classes that I'll be looking to play.

Just my 2 cents on sorc's....

AoE recently seems alot more ineffective, not sure why. Between the global 2 sec cool down and the removal of the graphics of it something is fucked up. I die to groups of 4-5 mobs in an area that i used to AE 10+ mobs at (ae exp really isn't that super to be perfectly honestly and i consider myself a very skilled ae'r after doing it in every game made if possible). Something just seems wrong with the mechanics and then you get mobs that don't get hit for it for no reason and others that show as dead but still attack you and kill you.

But its still fun

With the new 2 sec global timer on spells sorc lost alot of dps (we mixed 2 insta nukes with our chain one that had a timer) and I actually was being out dps'd by my bro's shaman if I didnt use CV (which was broke at the time).

Our true glory spell which i just love is chaos volley, you start out nuking small but it ramps up every time you use it in a row on the mob. The down side is that it gives damage to you as well that ramps up but with a healer in the group I had no issues nuking all out on 5 dots and not killing myself I "beleive" they changed it to do damage to yourself at set amounts for each # of nuke instead of a % damage of nuke but it was suposedly to roughly average out to be 10% of your nuke.

It really makes you feel important without overpowering the class to much (we are suposed to be top dps basically in certain situations (splurt that is) which this spell allows us to do. Without it.....I don't find the sorc nearly as fun heh.

We get to evac and we can silence and counterspell which is HUGE in alot of tough fights, ive been one shotted numerous times on normal group mob's spells. Also some mobs AE raid that is just nasty (even starting early like lvl 10 mini dungengon chain quest mob the green witch, 2-3 of her ae's and the group is dead, but i think they made it easier since i did it my first run through).

Invis is still broke atm so no clue whats going on with that. My biggest complaint now about the class is we freaking are on a set 100 endurance system which means no matter what your mana pool is your are limited to what you can cast (basically all spells take endurance) which provides another fucking retarded artifical limit that doesn't need to be put in the fucking game. Its like they just don't want there to be much of a difference between a uber maxxed char and a noob maxxed char.

There is already a lvl base capped on stats AND damage focus.....PLUS a limit on gear lvl so its not like you can twink up and get a really advantagous damage focus anyway but oh wait....lets also not be able to nuke based off our mana amount alone (which obv better geared players have more of) instead lets limit all players good or bad geared to pretty much a certain amount of spells they can cast in a short time period based off a set 100 endurance. I would expect Brad of all people to realize people want to be rewarded for their hard work and have the rewards MEAN SOMETHING, not just be something to brag about.

Half of the classes sound identical to Everquest.

You mean like in WoW?

What?

You mean like in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons?

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Hope is the new black.

I wasn't aware that World of Warcraft had Bards who were the best pullers in the game and capable of crowd control, Necromancers who could fear kite, a Shadowknight class, a class all but identical to Enchanters, Rogues capable of corpse dragging, and Wizards..er.. Sorcerers capable of evacuating their groups.

Tell me that if you weren't a fanboi of the game and you read Tarot's descriptions of most of those classes, you wouldn't think she was describing Everquest.

And you think that these classes and ideas for what a class's role would be are original with Everquest?

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Which is going to appeal to a lot of players. And it is very obvious they got some of the class directives from EQ.

WoW classes in comparison are so simplistic. The Blood Mage alone offers more depth at level 10 than 60 levels of a priest/shaman/paladin/druid. Stances affect your spells, making them more potent or weaker in favor of other effects. More than F1 cast renew, tab, shadow word pain.

Rogues in Vanguard actually feel like rogues. Almost the great feeling of the DAoC variaty. They play like there is more utility other than being a mindless button mashing DPS monster.

I haven't played every MMORPG known to man so I wasn't aware that Bards were excellent pullers since the dawn of time. Hell, I wasn't aware that games had "pullers" like Monks and Bards before Everquest. I stand corrected, the classes are all completely unique and only add to the excitement I have for the game.

ps: It's kind of funny how you are now bashing WoW, Givin. Didn't you kind of enjoy being a Rogue at one time? I seem to remember it.

Sure, I still do. I have enjoyed the rogue class across several MMORPGs. FFXI thieves, EQ/EQ2 brigands and swashbucklers.

And Vanguards rogues are better. What's the issue?

Actually I do you one better and give you what you want.

World of Warcraft rogues take zero skill to perform at an optimal level, offer pretty much zero in the way of in depth gameplay mechanics, and cater to the lowest common denominator. Typical thief abilities that come with the class are little more than useful. When is the last time you picked a lock and had it mean something, or pickpocketed an item worth two shits.

Their counterpart, the Vanguard rogue seems to take at the very least a sense of basic party tactical knowledge. SImilar to Dark Age of Camelot, their attacks will depend on positioning and circumstance. Picking is worthwile. As an added bonus, mobs get a debuff put on them for all to see if they have recently been picked and not slain off.

Careful Neesh, or someone might find out that you don't like Vanguard!

WoW classes just have a number of classes bunched up into fewer classes. As noted, part of the appeal of EverQuest was the variety of classes. Obviously not all done completely right and balanced(neither is WoW, for that matter), but every class had at least somewhat of a role to play. For 12 different classes, EQ did it pretty damned well.

The biggest thing I hate about WoW is that there's literally no such thing as a rare class/race combination. Gnome warrior is about as close as you'll come. With only 8 classes it does offer some potentially better balance(and yet still magically unbalanced in WoW), but you lose that (even if small) sense of individuality for players.

More and more WoW seems like an Arcade style of MMORPG. Just enough depth to hold the attention of a mature player(for a time), while having quite a bit fewer complexities and less ability to become powerful to allow the kiddies to fight with the big boys.

That rant off, that list looks quite appealing. The more variety, the better.

Actually, you can give EQ quite a bit of credit for defining the class roles. So, yes, they sort of did begin with it. I don't recall playing a rogue in Dungeons and Dragons when I was a kid so that I could be the top DPS in the group. Crowd control was more the province of the wizard or priest, iirc. Necromancers got DoT's with EQ, shamans got slows, rangers turned into a melee caster.

A lot of this is because many classes didn't really have functions that translated well into a MMORPG, and because there are some functions that a MMORPG needs that didn't have a class. EQ being one of the pioneers, has set a lot of definitions. That's not really good OR bad, in my mind. I'd like to see a little variety in a new game, but on the other hand it's hard to argue against a system that's proven to work.

As an aside tho, I laughed to hear Givin describe a WoW rogue as a "mindless button masher" after playing an EQ rogue for all those years. At very least, there's a couple more buttons to mash now!

Yea EQ deserves some credit for unique classes in terms of the MMORPG... still though, there were countless RPG's between D&D and EQ. I think at least a few of them had necros with DoT's for example and rangers with limited druidic spells, though I could be wrong. EQ took the base, and added to it. The majority of credit for class definition probably still belongs to D&D and other earlier RPG's.

Neesha probably just talk shit because his computer won't run it. I also said that game would suck when I tried the beta 1 or 2 I think. Things where so messed up it was unplayable. (getting stuck on grass etc... running at 0.1 Frame per second, rainbow colored textures)

The game is fun, the world is huge, things are improved daily. If you never actualy played one of those class in combat and i mean past lvl 10 in a group against 4 dot or multiple 3 dots then you don't know how different combat can be. At level 24 in a 6 people group against 5 or 6 "3 dots" you feel like you are already raiding. You have to adapt all the time.

Just having 2 targets (1 Defensive target and 1 Offensive target) open up a lot of different things to choose to do.

If you don't see that then it's ok we didn't want you to play anyway

You have to be able to differentiate a class definition from a class role. A role is dependant on game mechanics. Most games games, stories etc depict bards as sing songy types that use their songs to distract their enemys, enstill confidence in their comrades etc. This definition of a bard is nothing new. Game mechanics turn this definition into a puller type role. Game mechanics are what dictates that a puller is even nessesary.

So yes EQ did pioneer the game mechanics that we see in a lot of games today. But not the fact that bards sing songs, rangers shoot bows and mages throw fireballs.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

My computer will run it just fine.

Well, to an extent perhaps. But I don't think we can credit EQ with defining the class role of a healer as "to heal" or warriors tanking. There were other non-MMORPG's that defined similar class roles to what EQ had. There were a few unique ones - like monks pulling - but I'd say the true unique instances were relatively few and far between.

Pet classes pull in VG anyway.

Exactly. Neesha was not very impressed that the classes were similar to EQ in their roles. My point is that it's the game mechanics that determin the roles of a class, not the class description. In a fantasy game you're going to have certain classes regardless of where you go, or what you call it. Wizard, mage sorcerer, whatever it all rougly equates to some guy in a dress throwing fireballs. Unoriginal? Yes, but what would a fantasy themed game be without fireballs?

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

It's comical how blind some of you guys are. It's just a game at this point. A game with the potential to either fail or succeed. I show the negative aspects of the game as I see them and you guys want to cry like it is the second coming of Christ. The same thing went on when EQ2 and WoW were both coming out. The EQ2 fanbois were screaming that WoW was copying EQ ("they have griffons to fly on oh my god they copy1!@"). The EQ2 fanbois were claiming that EQ2 had awesome tradeskills, the end-game experiences would rock our world, the customer service would be great since "they learned from their mistakes", yada yada fucking yada.

The fact is, some of you want VanguardQ to succeed so bad that anything pointed out as questionable or not impressive gets immediately attacked. Constructive criticism anyone? I play WoW off and on, so of course I am going to compare any upcoming game with the game I currently play to see if it would be worthwhile to quit and try the new game. Thusfar, I don't see anything from VanguardQ that impresses me. Sure, it looks pretty but big deal. WoW looks pretty too (albeit a different kind of pretty).

Nothing personal, but the fence jumpers like Givin really crack me up. The screenshots we see now look just like the ones we saw months ago when Givin bashed them for looking like Everquest 2, yet now they are cutting edge? I don't buy it. Givin simply wants the game to be the perfect game so he is looking at it through rose colored glasses all of a sudden.

Don't get me wrong, the idea of a "hard core" game appeals to me on some levels, as it will get rid of the millions of retards who play WoW. I just think some of you are being quite unrealistic about things ("I like the idea of the sword I just spent 10,000 gold for having a chance to break the very first time I use it because it's more realistic woot!"). You post classes that are all but identical to Everquest classes, I say "that looks like EQ", and some of you fanbois freak out. I know Rangers shoot bows and Clerics heal, that's a given. When Bards can run faster while singing a "Belo's" song and the Rangers suddenly find themselves wearing dildo-looking helms, it may be time to look outside the box for some newer, fresher ideas. That's all I am saying.

shrug, the game needs a good 4 months at least of testing before it'll be ready. It's not going to be the greatest game in the world (certainly nothing revolutionary like they claimed in the beginning), but as I've said from the beginng if it has a good community feel to it I'll play it for that reason alone.

I can play a sucky game with good people and still have fun.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Amen to that. I still think games are still missing that "X" factor, which is encouraging an involved community. I don't want to be necessarily "forced" to be a hard core player or do I want to be completely self-sufficient. I think it's important to create a balance on how much you depend on your fellow players but at the same time be able to have some fun off to yourself.

I'm still waiting for something innovative to tackle. Vanguard, I don't care what you do to it, is essentially the same concepts as EQ, EQ2, WoW, etc. I think people have grown tired of that. It can be fun to revist the idea with a new, pretty cover on it but, it's grows tiresome very quickly. I see some glimpse of hope in Conan being something new and challenging to experience. In respect to VG, WoW:TBC, LOTRO, etc. to be fair, only time and the people will tell.


Take care,
Muli

How many phases of beta did you participate in Neesha?

I love how you refer it to fence jumping seeing as how i've been in at least 3 phases of beta a little over the last year.

I saw it when it was nothing but a flat, ugly grid of monsters that didn't even roam. I saw the game when they added in geometry and pathing. Back then the only thing they had to hype it was the Diplomocy system ideas and "climbing".

And the game was bland and boring and was a shitty Everquest then.

I was there testing it when the updated engine went in and it began to take shape and break out of that "looks like EQ" mold around September.

And it still felt like EQ2. It didn't, even have AA support. About this time a lot of people realized their computers sucked shit, myself included.

Now i'm here testing it today, finding things and reporting them so they can get checked off in what little time they have left.

None of us here have said this game will be the second coming of Everquest, and how it will destroy everyone. If anything, everyone here talking about its finer points is telling you that it will be a great gaming experience months after its release. Yes it is unfinished. Yes it will be finished in typical fashion on the subscribers dollars from retail boxes. It is a shame they wasted multi millions on playing BF2 and eating Cheetos for at least 3 phases of beta.

If you can come up with something unique as far as classes go in a fantasy setting you should really let someone know. You'd make a fortune.

It's fine however. You guys are hating it for what we said 6 months ago. And you should. Because it is very much part of this games history, and will shadow it forever. It deserves every bit of critique it gets so it can be made better than what it is going to be at launch.

I stand by every word I said about the game during Beta 2/3 transition. Because it was 100% true. What i'm seeing now, several builds later is a completely different game that what I reviewed 6 months ago.

Or to put it shortly, I could really give two rat shits what you think of my opinion of the game in its current form, and I really do want it to be the perfect game.

I'm more than willing to wait a few months for that to happen.

I would not say zero skill at an optimal level. Zero skill at a level far higher than lack of skill should account for, sure.

But you are right about the rogue class in vanguard. I enjoyed the class overall in beta. I actually preferred it to the monk, which had been my class of choice. SOlo was kinda, meh. But in a group, lots of fun.

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To quote Family Guy...

"and remember.... I was there!!!"

I'm with you Givin. I went through all those phases as well. It has made leaps and bounds. However, as you said, it's unfinished and I have trying to throw whatever feedback I can their way as well. I think the future months will be much different in looking at Vanguard. I think their greatest selling points are still yet to be discovered. Caravans, exploration, high-end encounters, etc. However, I feel in what is critical for a successful launch, is still not entirely in place. I'm really anxious to see what this game looks like at release, 3 months later, 6 months later.

Hey! Pickpocketing rules! You basically double the trash loot off each mob that way! :p So I make a whopping 10 silver instead of 5. Sometimes I even get a healing potion!

Right now I wouldn't call it hardcore other than the pretty reasonable death penalty. I'd put my money on some people hitting 50 1 month after release or less. In fact, due to its unfinished state it seems to me
that will be the largest issue it faces. Every company underestimates the gamer, and Sigil is no different.

Bah on all you guys about monks. I love my Monk. It does worry me a bit that it doesn't have a ton of use in groups. Hmm maybe I will play a Psionist... or a Bloodmage... or

Yeah, it bothers me that they haven't even really tested anything 35+ yet. People will hit 35+ inside of 2 weeks easy.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

That's very true. I don't care who or what there are always people that just play. I knew a group of guys who took 4 shifts and would level players up one at a time. In about a month, they all had maxxed level characters of their own. Xolar and I have done that at times as well whenever we would want a boxed character. It's not hard to level regardless of the gameplay, it really just takes time. 35 isn't really a tough level to reach in VG, especially if you can keep groups and know where to go.

I'm curious myself what they have hiding in the upper levels or is it all broken? I really hope they do not under estimate the player base too bad. As I said in other posts, this may be a new game but foundationally, this is all something each of us has done before. You get a prime group of good players, go to X dungeon, and fight upper level mobs and you'll level.

Muli

We wouldn't want to have giant humans running around in VG killing dragons because content was reached before they finished it like in some other games.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

hahaha.... why does that seem so familiar to me. I really hope stuff like that doesn't happen. We'll see a lot of "exposure" within the first month. Honestly most MMO's do not show their true colors for approximately 1 year, the earliest 6 months. It takes a long time to really learn the ropes of a game and wade through the mistakes and "the long way" to do something. I think Lany's opened around 1 year after EQ opened. It was amazing the difference and how much I enjoyed the game in so many different levels.

Well, since Brad did EQ, why would you even begin to think a lot of the things in EQ wouldn't make it over to VG?

Neesha is just a Hateboi and no mater what anyone says or does, it won't change that.



But the fact is, you want Vanguard to fail so bad that anything pointed out as impressive or not questionable gets immediately attacked.

Just relax, Neesha. If you don't like it don't get your panties in a bunch, jsut don't fucking play it.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

On a side note, pretty sure Neesha was a pretty big doubter of WoW at first being successful. A fairly close quote I remember - "Let me guess, WoW is the next 'EQ Killer', right? Just like DAOC was going to be, just like FFXI was going to be.." yada yada.

Speaking of those other games and being killers so forth and so on... is the guy over mmogchart.com ever going to update his site? What's the hold up or is he just waiting for some stuff to come out??

Considering EQ was pretty much dead and buried (as far as I was concerned) before WoW even came out, I highly doubt I said that. I may have said "WoW is the next EQ killer" in some fashion but I can assure you it wasn't done to bash WoW and was probably in jest just like we have done thousands of times since. Hell, I was in an illegal Alpha version of WoW before most of you had even seen a single picture of the game so it wasn't like I didn't know going in that it had some pretty sweet potential.

The funny thing is, I honestly wonder if everquest will ever finally shut down. Yeah they have a total population less than WoW has in new hampshire, but they are still doing expansions and releasing new content.

Guild Wars will KILL WoW !!!1one!!!11!!

/shrug I was a big beleiver at the start of the VG concept when it first hit the table and as time progressed through the beta's my mind changed and you will find me arguing both the negative aspects and positive aspects of the game. I love parts and hate parts of it. Neesha...hate to say it but I doubt to many people beleive you if you claim to be unbias and/or be giving just constructive critisim.

The game has changed drastically that is forsure, it isn't going to be anything aside from a potential good game that provides a few innovative ideas mixed in with alot of learned lessons (even though apparently they learned nothing from eq2's early release and wow's retarded item repair).

Classes definitely play differently and its just not another "EQ" system. Like fin said, Having an off/def target definitely makes for interesting combat and the action is fast paced but not just pure mashing. And while the few very avid gamers might be reaching high lvls fast I think this is definitely going to have a curve initially just because the average player doesn't have a good road plan as far as where he is going to lvl etc. Many players will be relatively new if not total noobs and it takes some work to find the good spots and just learn the game. Friends that design/test raid content said the higher end stuff really is amazing and just from a few normal events ive done/seen there definitely is some amazing content in this game.....but wtf do you expect for such a huge world, there is going to be some boring area's and some good old grind periods. I would say they are half way between a EQ setting where quests are zero % of your exp and wow where you basically quest to your max lvl (which is ironic...everquest!).

I would say 50-70% of my lvl'n has came from quest exp or exp i got while doing quests which seems about right.

I hope the Disciple revamp goes live pretty soon. It has the potential to be a very fun class, or a class that sucks balls.

I was just saying to myself yesterday evening. Where is Turbo

I think you're about right on it too. I've leveled up about 5 characters and while I was gone for work/vacation/etc. Xolar leveled up a couple of those 5. I believe our exp %'s work out about the same. When you first start out you do pretty well killing stuff along the way to your quest updates, especially once you get in the 10's and start moving away from your initial start-up camp.

I'm still a little uncertain about their combat though. I agree with others about the animations... it's terrible but, the combat itself has a certain degree of balance of other games. It's not strictly push button. It's not revolutionary. To me it seems somewhat empty, as if VG has a direction they want to go to differentiate from other MMO's but it's just not quite there yet.

There no doubt i'll probably try Conan but i'm having a hard time between VG and WoW:TBC.

I'm still anxious to see some more opinions and experiences.

Muli

The beauty of games is how easy it is to change them. It's not like consoles where you have to invest in expensive hardware, all it takes is one software purchase and assigning a new company to get your $10-$15/month.

I will wait and see how this game pans out, and if it ends up being better than WoW, I'll play it, if it's not, I won't. It's that simple. You don't need any loyalty to game companies, nor any hatred. Just judge the products and decide which is more fun for you to play.

I have an idea for a completely unique class, which has never been done in a game, which completely works in a fantasy setting. And would be tremendously awesome to play and if told about you'd look at me blankly a second and say, "Goddamn...why did no one think of that before! It's so...obvious".

Please, tell me how I can reap this 'fortune'.

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Start a studio and develop an award winning game of course duh. Now what is this awesome class?

tarot-

i don't think whores count as a mmorpg fantasy class...

-cc

Hell yes they do. Just call them courtesans!

I dunno how much the appelation of "Whore" applies to Courtesan's...

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Essentially, there were two types of courtesans. In one category were the courtesans known (in Italy) as the cortigiana onesta, or the honest courtesan, who were cast as intellectuals. In the other were the cortigiana di lume, which designated a lower-class of courtesan. Although the latter were still considered better than the average prostitute, the former were the ones most often romanticized and treated more or less equal to women of royalty. It is with this type of courtesan that the art of courtisanerie is best associated.

The cortigiana onesta were usually well-educated and worldly (sometimes even more so than the average upper-class woman), and often held simultaneous careers as performers or artists. They were typically chosen on the basis of their "breeding"--social and conversational skills, intelligence, common sense, and companionship--as well as their physical attributes. It was usually their wit and personality that set them apart from regular women. They were prostitutes in the sense that sex was one of their obligations, but unlike the average prostitute, sex constituted only a facet of the courtesan's array of services. For example, they were expected to be well-dressed and ready to engage in a variety of topics ranging from art to music to politics.

In some cases, courtesans were born from well-to-do backgrounds and were even married but to a husband lower on the social ladder than that of her client. In these cases, their relationships with those of high social status had the potential to improve that of their spouse's and as such, it was more often than not, that the husband was aware of his wife's profession and dealings

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"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.

Just think about it. like warriors in WoW they have several different stances

BDSM - maximum damage, leather armor, can only use whip type weapons and stilletto heel shoes for kicks.

Naughty School Girl/Cheerleader - Uses various mesmerising techniques to control crowds

Trailer Park - Brawler stance, This is the hand to hand combat fighting mode, takes alot of damage, but can also dish it out, has several screech attacks to do damage at range and stun her opponents.

Gwiber, did you even read what you posted or was that a direct cut and paste from a wiki?



Last time I checked a whore is a prostitute.

A courtesan would be a better class in an MMO because they do so much more than just have sex. They dress nice and play music too.

Back on topic!

I wonder...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan

Second paragraph.

So my instinct was correct. Thanks Neesh!

I dunno how "right" I am...

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In modern English and European systems of jurisprudence and law, a right is the legal or moral entitlement to do or refrain from doing something or to obtain or refrain from obtaining an action, thing or recognition in civil society. Compare with duty, referring to behaviour that is expected or required of the citizen, and with privilege, referring to something that can be conferred and revoked.

The specific enumeration of rights accorded to citizens has historically differed greatly from one century to the next, and from one regime to the next, but nowadays is normally addressed by the constitutions of the respective nations. Generally speaking (within the English and European systems) a right corresponds with a complementary obligation that others have on the same object or realm; for instance if someone has a right on a thing, simultaneously another party or parties have an obligation to do something (or to abstain from doing something) in order to respect that right or to give concrete execution to that right.

Property rights provide a good example: society recognizes that individuals have title to particular property as defined by the transaction by which they acquired the property granting the individual free use and possession of the property. In many cases, especially regarding ideological and similar rights, the obligation depends on the legal system in its entirety, or on the state, or on the generical universality of other subjects submitted to the law

To be slightly off-topic.

Yah I guess in a vulgar sense you could call a Courtesan a "Whore", but I highly doubt that a "Whore" would go through any of the things, and be the type od person a Courtesan was. And certainly wouldn't be regarded as most Courtesan's were by society for much of the time they existed.

Then again I guess you would call a Geisha a "whore".

While the job, such as it was, might entail a bit of the same style work, the differences in job are worlds apart.

It's kinda like calling a construction worker laying bricks an Archtitect.

While in "basic" they might have similar cross-over job appearances, and at times [however rare] the same jobs, you'd hardly say one was the other.

Then again. I have to remember that many posts to the Lanys Boards, and common sense and thought have little to do with one another as well.

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"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.

That sounds fun!

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

What the fuck do you know about courtesans? Seriously. Just once it would be nice if you wouldn't be a total fucking moron when you posted. Is that really too much to ask? Isn't part of the appeal of message boards the ability to show others that you have a decent head on your shoulders and you have a voice that is worth being heard?

A whore takes money for sex. A courtesan takes money for sex. While one may dress better than the other, they are both taking money for sex. Quit trying to sound intelligent and quit trying to argue stupid fucking points. It's starting to hurt.

Can we trade this retard in for Chiasma, please?

Yeah you're really splitting cunt hairs in to the level of whoreness now. Whores are whores.

The class I had in mind isn't whores, orcourtesans. And Gwiber is right when he points out there was a huge difference. A street whore could not be a courtesan in most societies that had them any more than a prostitute (even a high class one) could be called a 'Geisha' (pre WWII).

The point for courtesans and Geishas and their ilk wasn't sex, it was primarily companionship. They were highly educated, not just able to discuss politics and economics, and other areas, but also were highly skilled musicians, dancers, etc. They had to have a specific talent set and it took years of study to achieve it. Additionally in socities that had them, it wasn't considered a 'low' profession. Though generally in those same societies the roles offered women were highly limited to wife/mother, slave, servant...and that's about it beyond the sex trade. And all of those other things often involved sex as well.

ANYHOO...my class idea is not whores. Nor do I have the desire (or the ability) to start my own gaming company. But if someone is paying big bucks for such ideas, I'd happily sell my idea to get rich.

Unfortunately most gaming companies don't pay just for ideas like that. There's actually about a dozen classes (not whore) that have never been close to touched in gaming that are viable classes.

Also whore was a class in SWG.

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Have to agree here. Most gaming companies these days have significant programming and technical skill, but fall massively short in creative game design talent.