Its started and they have all the races playable etc. Alot of changes in the last 2-3 weeks that really changed some key aspects of the game (some great, some good and one or 2 that could of only been invented with the assistance of large amounts of heroine.

I called bullshit when the stores said Jan 30th (all stores updated to this date) but I am sure with SOE pushing them and $$$ running short we might be seeing that release date met. I don't think they will be ready for release but when has a game ever been ready heh.

It definitely isn't the game Brad promised but still has potential.

Orcs look so similar to goblins if it wasn't for the height =P. How are the lesser giants?

I have tried to like this game... I have but I really just don't enjoy the game. I don't know if it will fly or not.. well not initially. There's a lot of work to be done. To me, it may have been over hyped or it could just stink. I'm not going to count it out because there is still time. However, I don't think there's enough for a great launch. We all know what a poor launch can do to a game in regards to it's longevity, especially when other games with the same or greater potential are going to come out all around it.

I have to agree. I may eat my words but I think this game is going to fail miserably. It looks like shit. It runs like shit. It's not that fun or engaging to play. I won't deny that there are *some* positive aspects going on that are pretty cool but the game runs so bad and the game world looks so bland and disjointed that I just can't see the few minor positive things overshadowing the negative.

If you need solid proof of just how bad this game will be all you have to do is go look at the videos/screenshots/features at the Age of Conan site and tell me which game you would want to play. Warhammer is looking pretty promising as well. Add in the WoW expansion to the same time period and there is just too much competition for a very mediocre game that runs like shit.

Doesn't look like shit if your computer can run it, some places I can play at high graphics, some I can barely move at low graphics. It just needs optimization in some minor parts (Tanvu).

I am not one to put to much stalk in graphics as a key indicator of a game but I hardly would say this game looks like shit. I box with computers side by side and granted the lowest settings doesn't do to much for a person but with it on better settings the game looks as beautiful as I could really want from a game.

Im running it on my old comp that is 4+ years old and play fine on low settings. High settings with a new top of the line comp and not a hitch.

As far as engaging...to each their own. Some parts are lacking some are fun. I think it goes back to the fact orginally they wanted to make a smaller niche game and they have gotten the pressure to make a game that appeals to the masses which is what will make the game go south imo.

This doesn't need to be the next WoW just a good game that makes money and provides the best type of experience for a certain niche that is out there. Alot has yet to be finished though so i guess you can't really say until they get rdy to release it (going to flop if its freaking jan 30th that much i know).

Some of the quests are extremely fun, along with some of the dungeons such as Ra'jin stronghold, or the Imperial Hold near Thrakos Island. All of tanvu is fun except for the crashing once anyone kills Master Uiza-do Kahn =/ (which is needed for one of the main quests).

All of the "It looks like shit" statments being put out from people, unless you are running at very least a Dual Core + system, it's just talk with nothing to back it up.

Two beta pushes ago, i'd have said with a straight face, "This game looks like shit" Because it did. There were zero aspects of it to talk about.

Fortunatly, that was before they kicked it into gear and started in with some real polish. It really started to shine.

Then it hit me. The problem isn't the game. It was my system.

I woke up and realized these games aren't being designed with today in mind. Vanguard is no exception. If anything it will be the yard stick for future mmo's and developers to go by. WoW staked its claim and went for the casual gamer with mid to low end systems with no plans to upgrade for a bit longer.

There is another pie out there waiting to be claimed. And I think Sigil will take control of that market.

It is a grueling grind. It is tedious. It is also 300 times more rewarding to reach the goal at the end than current mmo's.

And now that Im hearing so real no bullshit things about the game, and witnessing it firsthand it all comes to light.

I can't wait really. And I will gladly eat my own words about its failure and demise. Sometimes its great to be wrong.

I'm running a 5 year old system and I can run on very high graphics on some portions, but some portions are unbearable even on low graphics. I'll upgrade later on, I mean graphics are not getting in the way of having fun. As long as people focus on reading the actual lore, and completing quests or even just exploring (I've found over 20 quests by just exploring) the game becomes extremely fun, I'm just waiting for the patch to finish so I can go back to the Imperial Hold.

Damn game is almost to big, i just hope they find a good balance between having enough people on servers to keep areas that are designed for groups populated enough to do a group (instead of having lfg on and having to travel 45 minutes to a chunk just to get a group) and keeping the servers from being completely overpopulated or worse laggy due to people. Thin line to walk before you add the concern of $$$ for server costs.

Interesting to see the race changes they just added as wel..

They fixed all of my 8 broken quests, woot =) Now I can clear my quest log

I can run it on medium to high settings. There are portions of the game that look really good like some of the creature models and elements of certain geometry but the thing that I don't like is how all the individual pieces come together. They just don't fit together in a natural way and looks disjointed. It's hard to describe but I am frequently pulled out of the immersion factor of the game world when I see how certain things come together. The world just seems very staged and static..not alive. Even EQ felt more like a living world with the lesser graphics.

How the game looks is not merely how many polys it's pushing or how detailed each individual item is in the game but how it all comes together and I personally don't think the pieces are falling together very well. The models are also very disappointing. It looks like EQ2 and the variety in the different races is almost none. Dog head on human body. Cat head on human body. Giant human body. EQ1 had more variety in the look of different races than VG does. The cities are also pretty awful and lifeless. I don't care how detailed they make a vase or table or wall..the cities all look static, dull and dead.



I disagree. I have no problem with the grind and in fact expected it from VG. This game doesn't even deliver in this regard because the combat is what is tedious (not the grind) and the mobs are all static with so little variety in what happens that it's way more mindless than any grind in EQ ever was. I never felt that EQ was tedious until much later on in the game when you had seen most things so many times and were just trying to maximize experience in an area that wasn't new. Think of all the dynamic dungeons/areas in EQ that were anything but tedious. Even places like the Karanas were teaming with mobs of all different levels and things that roamed across the zone and would kill you if you were not on your toes. Kizdeon Gix, Toxulia Forest, Blackburrow, Highpass, the Orc Highway, Guk, Castle Mistmoore and the list goes on and on. All those places were teaming with mobs and things that didn't just stand in one spot waiting to be killed. Guards from opposing factions wandering the paths or nasty creatures coming out after dark. Even WoW has a more dynamic leveling system with it's numerous and fun/amusing quests. VG does neither really. It has quests but not like WoW. It's a grind but not a very good (or rewarding) grind.

Of course this is just my impression in 21 levels. I know I haven't seen the entire game world and can't speak about everything. I acknowledge that there are good and fun quests in the game and it's not all bad but there is a lot that is bad and I haven't really seen it turning around in a big way. I hope they do turn it around. More quality games is a good thing but I'm thinking this won't be one of them. Hopefully, I'm wrong!

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SIGIL GAMES ONLINE, PLEASE DON'T REFER TO ME AS "SIGIL"



lol



Nostalgia, and also because EQ1 was the first true game of its genre. No MMO in your lifetime will ever recreate that sensation of true originality.



Yeah, maybe two beta pushes ago. Not so much now.



Lol-worthy in its absurdity. Nostalgia again.



The vibe I'm getting is, "I WANT EQ1 ALL OVER AGAIN", which is dumb. If you want purist, punch-in-the-balls EQ1, play Lineage and grind it out with the Koreans.



EQ1 had exactly 0 dynamic dungeons or areas. They were made that way by the people who inhabited them, which were plentiful because there was barely anywhere to go or anything to do. Guk, SolB, or solo kiting for xp woooooo! L2memory.



You're right! Only most of the mobs stood in one place waiting to be killed. Some of them were wanderers! That's some seriously dynamic content if I've ever seen it. If that's what our dungeons were like, they wouldn't take more than 20 minutes to populate each one. Also, scroll up to see a few people commenting on the first of their "Kizdean Gix"-type experiences with the Spawn of Kojuko in the Kojan newbie area. At level 5-6. You didn't encounter Kizdean Gix until level 12 at least! Vanguard wins again.



WoW's market isn't really our market, imo.

Basically the crux of your argument is patently ludicrous. Polish is rough because we're in beta and because the world is gigantic. The elements of our game that are different from old EQ and different from WoW are not accidents or failures, they are conscious choices by the design team. If Vanguard doesn't tickle your pickle, no skin off my nose, but the way you talk about the game will discourage people who haven't looked at it yet from ever doing so. Misinformation is lame, and Vanguard is coming along very well.

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I don't want them to like me because when I'm in the ring punches fly to the face. It is not a tenderness time. I am not falling in love with him. When the fight starts I kick faces.
-Wanderlei Silva

Not nessesarily such a bad thing to have only certain things to do. It brings the server together and creates community. VG is so huge that it's the one main thing that concerns me (someone else mentioned this too, was that here?). It seems like the servers are going to need 10k people on at a time in order to be half ways populated. As it stands now I rarely run into anyone except in towns, I think there's usually around 1k people on at time.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Your average EQ server had between 2000 and 3000 people online at once.

Also, it's a beta. Once it's publically available, these problems won't exist.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I understand that it's beta, but my point is that the servers should be able to support way more then eq servers due to the vastness of the world, so rather then have say 10 servers at 3k each avg online, have like 5 servers with 6k each or whatever.

Also something to keep in mind when it comes to stress testing the servers.

_________________
-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

It didn't force community. It forced people to cram into two areas that were large enough for maybe 4 groups each. Yet the two areas were forced to house entire server populations because there was nowhere else to go. That most certainly isn't creating anything proper. Its forcing you to interact with limited choice just to progress.

The vastness of a game also will breed community. You will HAVE to seek out like minded people like yourself to do anything, just this time around you have more than 2 choices to do anything.

Social groundhogs who like to solo their way through shit will find they miss WoW. The Team Bros that pop up will be the cream of the crop here. And since the game is so vast, teams forming like these will be commonplace.

I really like teaming in VG, I couldn't have done even 10% of all the fun things I've done if I hadn't formed a team (though I had to tell them "phat lewt" for them to try it).

The 180 degree turnaround because of something this simple is causing people to lose credibility. One person hired that you know doesn't = omg now it's the best game ever!

And the idea that a huge gameworld where very few people are around you is a good thing is just ludicrous. Go hop into any game with a lack of subscribers. You can get that feeling right now in many other games. Are they flourishing? Go run around in EQ2 in Qeynos or Freeport. It feels dead with no one around. That doesn't encourage "Team Bros..."-- it encourages you to quit.

I agree 100% with the previous post.

Why is it ludicrous? Its content designed for small group encounters, not leapfrogging 20 other groups to get to the Froglok Assassian room.

Some of you will never ever be happy mmo gaming again because you cannot let go of your EQ mentality. You value nostalgia over innovation.
You will play for a month or so, then quit, only to return when they add in some new "hotness" like nothing happened. Thankfully this is the new targeted market for mmo gaming to base its success on and its easy to attract sheep to you with a new shiny.

Anyway...



A totaly ignorant statment if ever there was one written here, and the exact reason that I could care less if I gain or lose credability in this communities eyes. If people cannot make up their own minds about what to play and what isn't worth investing time and money into as a hobby, they need more than what I write on the internet to make the call for them.

First, never did I make any claim even remotely close to that. Stop trying to put words in my mouth like I am some douche that posts in the Current Events forum. I don't play that game.

I even admited openly that my past comments about the game do not, and can not, hold true to the game in its current form. The difference between 2 phases of beta are black and white. It isn't the same game. So honestly I'm not sure what angle you're going for with this.

"I was wrong about this incarnation of Vanguard."

There, if thats what you are looking for i'm happy to admit I was wrong. You are the winner.

I also laid it out pretty clear that yes, due to the fact that they hired someone who shares my taste in gaming and knows what does and doesn't work made me want to take a second look at the game, with a new understanding they they aren't just hiring random people to work on a daily checklist of shit from a clipboard passed down from some dude upstairs.

You honestly think we're just sitting around giving miggent high fives just for the simple fact he's working for them? If anything he's gotten more feedback on shit that is broken or needs improvment than ideas to implament. Constant hassle and hazing over things that make the gaming experience not fun rather than enjoyable. And brutal honesty to boot. If anything its exactly what a game needs, instead of the laughable "beta" that is Burning Crusade.



And if you didn't have instanced content in WoW, people would have quit that game too. I'll take having tons of options and a huge world to explore over grouping with the mindless tools that WoW brings in to fill its ranks anyday. The chances of finding quality players as you go along are greater in a game that makes you actually work to get ahead in it like Vanguard. You know it just as I do. You'd have taken an invite from people you do not know to go to Chardok Royals before you would take a random group invite to go to live side Strat. People will think the first 10 levels in Vanguard are like World of Warcraft 2.0, then they will get slammed with the fact they are now on their own and have to fend for themselves.

And you are right. People will quit. It's ok. I didn't want to group with those people anyway. They'll all be back like nothing happened anyway at the start of Burning Crusade so plenty of shit for those guys to do.

I just hope there is room for them, since the comfy raid spots they might have enjoyed back then are avalable, especially since they have been cut from 40, to 10 and 25.

Don't mistake me. I really value your opinion on games, Givin. I think you know what makes a game "good" (granted, it is by your definitions) and I enjoy reading your reviews/critiques on games. You are usually dead on. However, I think in this case, your judgement is biased because of Miggent.

I like the idea of a big gaming world, but I don't think it encourages grouping, it discourages people. One of the biggest complaints with EQ a year or so ago was how everything felt so deserted and empty. You had all these zones with zero people in them, creating virtual ghost towns. And that was when EQ still had a decent player base. In fact, they merged servers to help fix some of these problems.

Vanguard probably won't have the number of players that EQ did or even does now, so I think people will still feel alone in the game, which isn't a good thing. It won't "breed community". Community is bred by having tons of people around each other who decide to venture out together to explore new areas and tackle difficult dungeons. At least that's how I see it...

To get the community, you also have to have people of a similar like minded nature populating your world.

For this to happen, people will have to hear about the game and what it has to offer. To do this, the ignorance that people cling onto from 2 or 3 beta phases ago have to be swept away. I am guilty of this.



This is 110% true. If you ate at a burger joint 6 months ago and didn't like them, but Ballz or Crowde came up to you and said they changed the recipe and it was hella good you'd jump on it based on trust also. After trying it you make a choice, you like it or you still do not.

In this case, I found the burger was much more filling and appealed to my tastes than what they offered 6 months ago. It doesn't matter if it was Miggent, Squink, Dola, Xantheous or whoever. If someone here began working on Vanguard and told us that it was a ton different than what it used to be, i'd be interested in checking it out. I like mmorpgs, they are my hobby.

I have no problem eating my own words and admiting that I am wrong about a game. Its just unfortunate that because its Mig working there, people see it as a sudden sprout of random fanboism.

A pity.

Now I want a burger.

Me too

No one around. It's the reason I stopped playing eq2 and went back to wow. Cause I couldn't find anyone to group up with.

I agree that no MMO will ever give that same sensation as EQ. I recognize that. However, I don't want to play EQ all over again. You can't blame people for using that as a comparison since it's been pretty much the gold standard for this genre for a long time. When I compare it to EQ it's merely to illustrate a point or comparison. There were certain elements in that game that made it work but there were also lots of problems and room for improvement. I think what most people who played EQ expect are the good elements to be build upon and the bad to be removed plus any innovation that can be thrown in for good measure would be a bonus.



I'm talking about the look of the races. Ogres, Trolls, humans, elves, halflings and gnomes all had a fairly distinctive look...not just a different head on the same body.



Yes, roamers and healers. It's not all that dynamic but it did work. I have seen almost none of that in VG. Mobs all sit in one spot for the most part. Mobs are all the same level in each little area. 99% of the time if you are in an area with appropriate mobs for your level you don't have to worry about a sand giant straying into your camp or whatever. You cited an example and that's great but it's only 1 example in a GIANT world. The vast majority of mobs are neatly packed into groups of certain levels with little variety. The only example I can think of that I have seen personally that bucks this trend is the assassin in the mines. I thought that was a nice touch but those things seem few and far between.



That's not true. I have been happy in WoW for the most part. It's a different game than EQ in a lot of ways but I have liked a lot of what they did and I was one of the people who had NO interest in WoW because I didn't like the style of graphics and was never a Blizzard gamer (never played any Blizzard game before). After playing in the open Beta I changed my mind because it was a good game and it was easy to see that. You say VG has innovation but what is it? Aside from a few minor things I don't really see where the innovation is. It doesn't look as innovative as other games coming out in the same time frame.

I don't fault Given for changing his mind on the game, especially now that he has a fairly solid reason to have renewed interest via Miggent. What I do question is the complete turnaround from "OMG THIS GAME WILL SUCK!" to "OMG This game is the second coming of MMOs! and I KNOW it will be good despite the obvious problems!" Seems a bit drastic. :p

You are right. It is drastic. Im glad I never said anything even coming close to this. I'd have looked like a fanboy.

Seriously, maybe I missed it somewhere, but can someone who's testing/playing now explain what makes this game really different than current/past MMORPGs? (I'm not asking better, I'm asking about different.)

A very old friend of mine (who lives far from me, Texas) is currently testing it and he keeps saying how hard it is to keep testing because he's not having much fun... he simply doesn't see anything really fresh about it. Now, he's a MMORPG whore, usually jumping from one game to another, so I don't want to rely on that review. My other friend who was testing it quit.

Vanguard will have to make a HUGE turn around to convince me but, I agree with Givin, sometimes it great to be wrong. I guess I have to limit what I say until the NDA is officially lifted but, I believe the game has a long way to go.

First, you have to erase EQ1 out of the mind. I know that's easier said than done but, one vital point that has already been made is the fact that every experience you had in EQ is amplified 100x now because of the nostalgia and other MMO's falling short to our appetite.

I do believe you have to watch the size of the game world. Vanguard is a very massive world. However, as long as each region, kingdom, however you want to say, it is interactive the community can develop and work just as well as a smaller game world.

I think the downfall to allot of what has been going on in regards to WoW, EQ2, GuildWars, and even now AoC, is the fact the people are moving towards a different style of play. PvE has changed and the mechanics are growing dull, it's very difficult to devise a PvE environment that is challenging and addictive. I think with the initial PvP success of EQ2, Battlegrounds of WoW, and conversations of Age of Conan are migrating people to a great challenge. Vanguard is attempting to become innovative with their diplomacy system, caravans, etc. to bring a new light to PvE world but, I say all this because you have to be cautious now a day with grind. Your core players get bored easily and most people dislike the "been there done that" feeling. It's definitely time for something new and I hope Vanguard succeeds in this.

That's just a couple of thoughts I’m currently having without revealing too much. My overall opinion thus far in Vanguard is that I don't see its long term selling point for me. Since, as someone said earlier, you can never recreate the EQ1 feeling or community, I want some challenging and new. WoW:TBC will hold a lot of people's attention and with AoC and LOTRO coming out, Vanguard will not be a sure fire choice from a sales/investment standpoint. The launch for an MMO is vitally important, Vanguard is going to have to kick out the goods in the next month or so to make this thing fly. If not, I predict a similar fate as EQ2, which isn't failure but it would be disappointing to me.

Take care,
Muli

I personally feel that a lot of past mmos to be released have "killed the vibe" so to speak. They offer what they claim to be "fast gameplay that is simple to get into and master". I don't see that, for what I want out of a mmo to be a good thing.

In EQ, it was about that grind. And I realize here that i'm borderline talking hypocricy by refrencing nostalga. Not to get into that, with that grind came acomplishment. There was a reason you were there day in and day out slugging through a slow moving exp bar.

I busted a nut when I hit 46 I think it was in Sol B and could enter the planes. Getting over that hump of a hell level at 55 was a feat only the most hardened could acomplish at that time. That is who I wanted to be, one of the best, and to do that I had to align myself with likeminded people who were working on a similar goal, with future goals in mind.

I see Vanguard as a ressurection on this principal and going even further to advance upon it by offering players more choices to go about reaching it besides hunkering down in a handful of optimal zones to hit the goal.

To me, that is being innovative, in taking a concept that appeals to what perhaps might not be the majority of gamers now, and enhances the experience.

There is no acomplishment in most of todays mmos. Hit 60 in WoW? Who cares. Defeated Naxxramus? Thats nice, too bad in a single expansion all your hard work and shit you famred gets replaced by a Codpiece of the Monkey.

No acomplishment. You are just simply left with a void to be filled by a grind with no reward. Had it not been for the people I play with, i'd not have got past Scarlet Monestary in WoW.

Why? Because by then i'd seen it all.

So, hell level grinds, but with a lot of zones to do it in?

But quests still give good XP and loot, and the world is huge.

seems like, from reading all these posts, that vanguard is a much greater time investment than everquest ever was. if that is the case, i wonder if that is the best decision for this game from a business and financial standpoint. sure, you are going to have the ultra hardcore gamers relishing in this 'grind' and logging in daily to see their xp bar move one blue bubble in 3 hours. however, you are going to alienate a vast majority of mmorpg players who are already weened on the quickness of wowarcraft. those of us who have played everquest have mixed thoughts on the grind and hell levels; while i remember the excitement and relief and accomplishment of dinging lvl 46 on a saturday morning (two hours before a pimm/istrahd hate raid) and all the work that it went into... i then remember, all the work that went into that . while vanguard might be a better game than everquest, it is going to be hard to invest more time than what i already invested before into vanguard. while i used to be a hard core mmorpg gamer, i dunno if i can quantify me as that anymore.

maybe vanguard just isn't the mmorpg game for me. which, i suppose, is fine. however, i think there are a lot of people who are in the same boat as i am with regards to mmorpg's. and i dunno if microsoft is going to be happy with 25,000 hard core gamers playing their game as they look at 7.5 million (and counting) with wowarcraft.

i guess time will tell. i have not gotten back into everquest, and i have resisted lots of temptation on wowarcraft, in the hopes of upgrading my computer and giving vanguard a shot. i loved everquest during kunark and velious days, and with the same guys on board from that time period doing vanguard... i have a lot of high hopes. but i will be honest- a greater time investment in vanguard (compared to everquest) really scares me to death. i have changed as a person, and don't want to commit more than 4 hours a day to a game. and i believe that there are many many many out there just like myself...

-cc

It isn't their game. They will not see penny one for Vanguard. Check the AHAHAHAHAH thread for infos.

Target demograph for VG seems to be two set groups.

First, gamers who have played mmos long term, were part of the initial wave of games. Some people just want one last hurrah. One more long term run to last them untill they finally leave the whole gaming scene behind, as opposed to becoming mmo nomads.

And second, new gamers who really don't have any basis of what to compare it to. They will see this game as a long term thing they can get behind instead of a saturday morning cartoon show that lasts about two weeks before you've had your fill.

They know WoW is a hit. They know they will never defeat it in subscriber base. That isn't the only criteria that makes a mmo successful.

Can't beat WoW unless we go to china!

Few things,

A) You do not need 7 mil people to have a finicial success, obviously you want more people as in most cases it = more money however a lower sub rate with fans that play for 5+ years is still going to make the company money just not as much. I couldn't give the magic number of sub's they need to have a IRR that is considered acceptable to the finicial backers but I know it is not 7 mil.

B) One thing that has always given me hopes with this game is that they sat down and did a 5+ year plan. Obviously plans change but I would gladly bet my dearest next born that no other game has had a DETAILED 5 yr plan of what is going to go in there game before they started working on it. Its just good project management. So we don't have things like in EQ where you kill all the gods of your universe and then fight snakes and aliens. This gives me hope.

C) Things that might be of interest (and they could and have changed so nothing is a forsure) but flying mounts, boat combat, houses on plots, an extremely engaging crafting system (i hate crafting and I am even enjoying it) etc. To be perfectly honest I don't think the game can be sold just on innovative idea's, its more a combination of new ideas mixed with old idea's that really worked well for what they are trying to create.


It isn't the game I was lead to beleive I was going to be playing as ive mentioned that before but at least for me even in beta and no raiding yet it delivers the type of game I like more then anything out there. I don't think its really a casual game to be frank...sure you can do things casually but I don't think you will get nearly as much out of the game then as you might WoW or whatnot.

So yes...if you had to compare it is more like old style EQ then anything else but they have made vast improvements on all elements of it and also thrown in alot of various things that make it different then anything to date. Lastly...combat, keeps you busy period. I won't argue that its "engaging" or however you want to describe it but it keeps you busy. Shit i used to 4 box at times and 2 box non stop during raids but VG's system keeps you extremely busy to be effecient. (imagine 3 mobs coming in, 1 i need to mez, another is casting a 1500 damage spell that I have 1 sec to counterspell (i have less then 1500 hps fyi) plus I need to be doing my damage, plus occassianal crits that lead to finishers plus stuns/blind to help lower dps on tank, etc and that isn't even to far into the game.

I am experimenting with 2boxing and it really is difficult to be 1/2 as effective as a person used to be in EQ. The game keeps you busy.

My only advice for those not in beta, don't listen to the fanboi's and don't listen to the obviously haters....jury is still out. Early the game looked like it was going to shit, lately they made alot of key changes which for the most part improved the game but also took away some of the joys i was looking forward to. The vision has changed thanks to some people trying to make this game cater to a more wide spread audience which i think is a mistake but I guess it might be needed to ensure it is a financial success.

I rather pay 20 dollars a month instead personally and have the game that 95% of the player base wants (taking into consideration most the player base doesn't understand the greater picture of what needs to be in place to keep the game or economy etc running smoothly.)


Ps...miggent tell brad to take out the retarded expertise system with gear or at least up the lvl cap to 10 and progressively increase it....not being able to wear gear on my main due to this system is in no way helping game play. It is a bandaid fix for twinking that almost utterly removes any sort of twinking plus effects main chars....the evil scaling sysyem even works better then this If i save every penny for 7 lvls and buy a crafter staff that is 10 lvls ahead of me i should be able to use the damn thing, that is part of a free economy. I have plenty of good fixes but i wont waste the time suggesting them in this forum.

So do you like the game or not?

The xp curve in Vanguard is not SUPER BRUTAL nor is it a throwaway grind like WoW. Grouping makes it go a lot faster, although soloing is viable. It just takes a lot longer.

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I don't want them to like me because when I'm in the ring punches fly to the face. It is not a tenderness time. I am not falling in love with him. When the fight starts I kick faces.
-Wanderlei Silva

As I said neesha....its not the game I expected and was led to beleive it would be. There are very positive things about it and its the best thing to date that has my interests.

On the flip side of the coin it has a few annoyances that I think will make it less appealing such as the gear expertise system coupled with a real concern that the game mechanics are not going to be ironed out come release and we might lose some of the niche players that are needed to make the community.

You know some people can be interested and like a game without being a fanboi that swears that it is greater then sex and chocolate combined.

I've ponied up one of my work bonus's for a top end computer, set up my 2box and preordered 2 copies already so as I said...atm this is definitely going to be the game I play for the next few years minus any major sleepers.

So yes I like the game, I like the spurs to but doesn't mean I don't want to kick fucking coach pop and and malik rose (yes i know he is gone but i still want to) in the head. +'s and -'s but at this point there are more +'s.

That's what I was going to say. Solo is comparable to EQ, but grouping the levels go by pretty quick.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

I actually quite enjoy the gear expertise aspect of the game.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I haven't messed around with it too much, but I like the concept.

It's actually somewhat like something I suggested really early on. A system where you had a certain amount of willpower based on some stat that you could use to "master" magical items, once you use up that willpower you have to go with mundane items.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Well my primary issue with it is that it limits the way a character can be successful and interact in the world.

Let's say you aren't much of a grouper or person that does quests but loves to craft. You are being told you can't use things that you created yourself.

Or you save up money (in my mid teens i went 7 lvls without spending a penny to save up for a real nice item, bought it and then a few days later expertise came out) and want to buy something. It hurts the economy, especially because the real common drops for your lvl tend to be not that attractive at all and will just pile up in your bank or be sold for mere coppers.

And while there can be an arguement made about you shouldn't be using gear higher then your level....well to me if you have the ability to get it one way or another you should be able to use it. Now I will gladly admit some sort of system needs to be in place to prevent super mass twinkage that completely trivalizes EVERYTHING if you twink etc (fungi TS at lvl 1 pre anti twink days in eq anyone) but lets be honest half the fun of having alts is gearing them up and going through shit faster then the snails pace you had to the first time around.

My other arguement would be that this is a poor bandaid fix for a deeper problem.....itemization and the rate of entry of items into the game. There is going to be a trickle down effect and yes eventually dropped gear should lose its value as time progresses but currently half the drops no one wants but lower lvls and the other half the items are really rare (which is great you need these but there isn't any happy mediums).

One solution would be to really lower introduction of items into game but to me the grind is about right atm, making items less avaiable only will reduce player effectiviness and slow lvl'n down more. I like rarer items with more signifgance but thats a different arguement.

Bottom line aside from weapons items do not improve so greatly that an item over 7 lvls should be hard capped.....they do NOT give a player a super advantage....yes a good advantage but dear lord thats part of the reward of getting items be it via buying them or crafting etc. Make it so worthless higher lvl items arent flooding into the game that people will sell real cheap to noobs and we won't have an issue imo.

I can see some people liking this system and it has some valid uses....just my own personal taste i guess. But i do think its going in the wrong direction and is a poor fix for a deeper seeded problems. I shouldn't have 20+ items in my bags to sell that i can't find buyers for even at cheap prices and i can't give to my bot because he can't use due to lvl.

Kudio's to them for getting rid of the no drop route they were going, at least you can give items to alts or sell them when you are done now as long as you don't bind them.....except i am sure all raid items will be no drop. (no boc's forsale.....come on the first year after AoW was killed i bet like only a hand ful of swords were ever sold on the market)


I would be happy if they tweak the system at least and give 10-15 lvl spread at least and keep it so no item can be over 20% at the max lvl....wearing 5 items only that are 15 lvls ahead of you does NOT make you a super powerful ass kicking monster....stats on items just don't increase that much as lvl goes up to make this over powering except again in weapon's case where a signifgant increase in dps can be seen by one item.

Twinking alts is so 2001.

The system is in place so you cant call up 1-800-CHINAMAN and come out with gear you have no buisness owning in the first place.

It was fine in EQ because there weren't that many players to begin with, and it helped maintain item value in the economy for longer periods of time. Remember it took forever to make the Oracle Robes outdated. Even tho they were commonplace and easy to acquire, the value remained constant due to desire to own them.

Tradeskilling, when in full swing I believe will rule the economy, much like in a fashion EQ2 presents today with multiple tiers of produced stuff. Your normal "really good" stuff that is still very usable and desirable, and the super high quality versions that will obviously be premium grade. Both will work for players exceptionally well for the level range, just the high grade will probably not outdate as fast.

Raid items should autobind. They have no buisness out in the commonplace for anyone to weild.

I dont see this being a problem. Launch will be completely different. More players will equate to more gear being needed all around. Your bags are full of shit right now because everyone is self sufficent and there isn't a great understanding about drop gear vs tradeskill. So people aren't throwing money around like normal.

Fair enough, im not worried about twinking though, im worried about being limited on my main. I just don't see the reason to deny some one the ability to get gear through crafting or saving up....its an artifical limit that isn't needed imo.

But I am the same guy when i was 6 yrs old playing dragon warrior that would go and save up cash like no other and make a death run to one of the cities that was surrounded by mobs that could kill me in 1-2 rounds just to go buy uber copper sword.

The reason I really think its overdone is that as far as i understand stats such as int and vitality etc only have a % effect increase based off current lvl....thus if you are really high in int for your level then you receive X% bonus to spells plus spell focus which also is capped on a lvl basis.

So tell me why you need to have such a limiting gear system as well if you already have the limitations built in to some extent to your stat system? My only thoughts would be due to weapon's for melee but why not build a cap into that opposed to giving us this system.

/shrug just my thoughts but to me its very limiting and an artifcal boundry that really shouldn't be in place due to others already ingame.


edit and don't get me wrong i am not bitching about the game, it is fine and getting better every day....PVP just started!! But this is just one of the issues I feel strongly on that i would like to see changed but i doubt that will happen...most i can hope for is the limits being tuned to the point it will do what was intended...stop twinking not effect mains.

i never owned an oracle robes

-cc

Make a hybrid of the old system (The higher the item compared to you the more it lose stats) and the expertise system.

I bought mine from lanwen or Marc

And yes a hybrid system would be better then a hardcap lvl telling me I can't wear gear.

I remember I got one of the Venril Sathir staves from Lanwyen/Lanwen/wtfeverhisname was also.

i got my horse from IGE

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I think lanwen eventully came back as ruh roh or whatever the rogue was years later but didnt tell many people for obv reasons.

I actually thought about this, and while I agree with most of your points I think you're missing something. It adds another dimension to gear selection. It's not just a simple matter of ohhh, I'll grab every item that has these stats x, y, z anymore. You have to put more thought into it, like oh, if I take this BP, I won't have enough left over for the legs I want, do I really need this bp?

I think with this system you may even get gear "builds" that people will make up for optimal stats for their classes. I think I actually do like the system, tho it may need some tweaking currently (ie I think you should be able to use that sword that you saved up for, but you may have to take some shitty other gear in order to use it).

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Well to be honest i don't think that is its intentions or really going to be a result of this as far as varying gear from person to person. Once you are at level cap most items will cost 2-3% I bet just like items of your level do (just guessing here) and even rare ones probably won't cost that much to make you have to choose.

And lets just say it did.....do you really want that? Honestly to me its a slap in the face to tell me no matter how hard or long I raid etc that I have artifcal limits put in place that will limit the effectiveness of my character past those of a lvl cap. I read a good article about what made good old eq good....it was the fact there was none of these artifcal limits...granted some were needed but for the most part it was great to not be forced into a direct path or worse have limited choices.

Now a good example of "good" limits is having to make a choice of what shaman you will be be it bear (tank) phoenix (castor) and cat? (rogue). That creates variation without putting a limit to what you can accomplish.

Maybe my mind is stuck in old generation thought, i don't know but i just can't "like" the idea of not being able to use what I earn....isn't a lvl cap, stat caps (based on lvl), focus caps (lvl) and a general lvl cap enough artifical limitation....SONY loves to pride its games on the "open" choices you have and making your own destiney but every game that has came out since EQ has limited more and more the capabilities of the players and controlled them. I was hoping VG took a different approach (and they do in some instances) but this system is against my very idea of what a good game mechanic.

Not to mention there is enough "stat" differential and utility that one player may choose to pick another, as is each class has really 3 primary stats to be concerned about and its basically impossible at least lower lvls to get items with 2 let alone 3 of your key stats. So there is your "choice".

The way you put it almost caters to a casual player.....if it does in fact end up where you have limited choices of key gear you can pick (which i really dont think it will at lvl cap) then that means the difference between a casual player and heavy raider will be even less due to being bound by the same limit which at least for me is pretty big deal breaker.

I think most players at least who raid would rather be limited by end of content before a system like this on how good of gear they can get.....but again all for not because i don't think that is their intention, just a poor fix for twinking.

You may be right, and maybe this isn't the direction that they are going to take this, but I personally think it would be cool. Going on a raid and see a sword drop, looking at the stats, meeh, it's ok, then wait a second, it costs 0%!?

Ideally I would like to see your total % based on a stat, and then have the items balanced with that. I think it has potential if done right, but whether it will or won't remains to be seen at this point.

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-Rileigh (aka Golliwog)

Curious,

If VG has gone into Closed Beta 4, is there a reason emails are going out calling it Beta 3?

Not that I got such an email, as I couldn't say, but if I did get one, say, within the past 2 days, like OJ, and it stated Beta 3 invite with the key, do I have sufficient reason to be confused?

if we got into beta 3 from miggent are we in all future betas or do we need to be reinvited? if so, could you send me a new invite to hsraffety (at) gmail.com please miggent when you read this?