Calten Wrote:Quote:Instances and easy leveling have been the bane of the second generation of MMo's. They need to throw that shit out the window, and make their player base have people they hate inside of the game.<
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Exactly what I was thinking Calten.<
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Quote:Oh a grind MMO again? No thanks. Taking Vanguard off my "must have" list. I don't have the time to sit and grind out levels and whatever else you need to do anymore.<
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All the quests and shit they are coming out for the second generation MMO's just suck. I would rather grind out xp to be honest.<
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Quote: and an advanced series of charecter-specific battle features that enable parties to daisy-chain their attacks together.<
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Ugh I HATE combat chains. Other than that, it sounds pretty good.<
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That is one thing that I liked to a point in EQ2. The combat chains are nice, but they need to be harder to complete.<
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Quote:So far, im seeing jack shit offered so far that could be considered revolutionary. Another hosh posh collection of "MMORPGS GREATEST HITS VOLUME 8".<
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Quote:Who cares now really. Boring. Everyone is so jaded at this point with getting hopes up for that next mmo to come along to blow their balls. Who cares what they roll out. People will sheep it up, and follow whoever dangles the carrot closest to their faces.<
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In the end...This is most likely what its going to be. Magelo<i></i>

Our guild (currently in WoW) has a bit less than 20 regular players. We're all old, fat, married/divorced, and with kids. Nobody is a stay at home welfare gamer or teenager, and it is basically impossible for our guild to do the "end game". That being said, we are good at what we have the time and people for, and would love the opportunity to eventually get "end game gear" and would be more than willing to get it months and months after the hardcore players do. But, we'll never be able to do 40 man raids... due to membership levels and real life demands on our time. However, we'd be more than willing to spend countless smaller sessions progressing along a long series of quests/tasks/instances to have a shot at end game gear. Hell, you could even put timers and limits on the quests so it would even take forever for the power gamers to do (making the 40 man raid faster and more attractive to them).<
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I think it would be great to see a game come out that had that option open for those of us who simply cannot make the time/guild investment in massive end game raids. Simply put, why does most of end game content have to be something like 40+ man raids? <i></i>

It's only natural for the tougher mobs to require more people to kill them. Part of the appeal of a game like WoW, EQ, Daggerfall, etc. is progressing and seeing bigger and badder foes. It is only logical that killing a dragon is going to take more people than it takes to kill a Centaur. The rewards, however, are greater so it is worth it to team up and slay the mighty beasts. I can't imagine a game like this where everything could be done solo. That wouldn't appeal to me and I am sure it wouldn't appeal to the majority who play online games. If you are looking for something like that, I suggest sticking with Baulder's Gate or that game for the PS2 (and the sequel) made by the EQ folks... Champions of Norrath, or whatever.<
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/shrug <i></i>

meh, if all it were was a mob_power vs no_of_players than we wouldn't even need gear. Or the 72 raid cap would be higher today than it was in PoP. <
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In actuality it's mob_power vs. quality_of_gear as is evidenced by the fact that old raid mobs can be single-grouped or even soloed. <
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Also, I would rather have a series of more challenging encounters than just a bigger and badder boss mob where all they did was jack up the dps and hp.<
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Quote: I can't imagine a game like this where everything could be done solo<
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When did solo become part of the equation? MMOs are social games, and they derive much of their longevity from player interaction. Raiding is not the only form of player interaction, and for many, it's the least desireable. <i></i>

Quote:When did solo become part of the equation?<
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It became part of the equation when you wanted everyone to have an equal opportunity at everything in the game. Why should people who group have the ability to get things that people who solo can't get on their own? That's the same line of thinking as asking why people who raid should have the ability to get things that people who don't raid can't get on their own, isn't it?<
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Contrary to what some people believe, the companies that create these games don't owe their customers anything other than maintaining a "quality" product. All customers are not created equally. Sure, like Sony did, most of these companies will eventually balk and listen to the masses and allow easier access to more content, but they are not obligated to do so. Risk/reward, dedication, etc. should all be taken into consideration, in my opinion. <
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As I have said over and over again, I know what I am getting into when I play a game like this, and others need to learn that as well. If I can't put in the time to raid for a few hours, or do tradeskills for an extended period of time, I shouldn't expect the rewards that go along with doing so. Now granted, I am not irrational like some people are so I know there are tons of others out there who think they deserve these same things that others work for without actually doing any of the work themselves. There will always be people like that and I will always be against their way of thinking. <
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Eventually they will win with the constant whining and thus "cheapen" those accomplishments done by the pioneers before them, just like what happened in EQ when the flag system was altered. And then newer content will (hopefully) come out and the whole process will start over again. You'll just never be able to convince me that everyone deserves the exact thing in the game because they all pay the same amount a month. That's just not how I think a MMORPG should operate, and that's one of the reasons I believe EQ was and will remain the best one that will ever exist. <i></i>

Wow, just wow<
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Quote:It became part of the equation when you wanted everyone to have an equal opportunity at everything in the game<
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i.e a novel twist on the slippery slope argument. <
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No, MMOs derive much of their stamina from social interaction. Apparantly, however, you seem to think raiding is the only social interaction that's worth a fuck. Elitism+<
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Quote:Contrary to what some people believe, the companies that create these games don't owe their customers anything other than maintaining a "quality" product.<
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They don't even owe that to their customers. Look at GoD. However, correct me if I'm wrong here, companies want as many customers as possible. They're still a business. And in all honestly, catering to raiders is fucking suicidal. Let's orient all this content towards the 10% of people who chew through it the fastest. Good call, billy bob! <
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Fact is, people like to progress, and as long as they're obeying the prime fucking commandment (thou shalt interact with other players) they should have equal gains for equal effort. Key word: effort.<
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Quote:Risk/reward, dedication, etc. should all be taken into consideration, in my opinion<
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Also, as far as I can tell, your opinion is that people who don't raid take no risks and have no dedication. Elitism++<
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Quote:As I have said over and over again, I know what I am getting into when I play a game like this, and others need to learn that as well<
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Good for you. I'm arguing that games don't have to be some fucking pit where you sell your soul away. <
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Quote:If I can't put in the time to raid for a few hours, or do tradeskills for an extended period of time, I shouldn't expect the rewards that go along with doing so<
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See, I think a large portion of the problem lies right here. For so long raiders have monopolizes the top loot. Now it's like some concrete link between the two. It's my belief that best loot should properly be linked to the effort put forth to obtain it. But wait,<
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Quote:I know there are tons of others out there who think they deserve these same things that others work for without actually doing any of the work themselves<
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I forgot, unless it's a raid, nothing they do is worth a fuck. Elitism+++<
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Quote: "cheapen" those accomplishments done by the pioneers before them, just like what happened in EQ when the flag system was altered<
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I'm pretty sure I already mentioned in this thread that the way they just opened up the zones was bullshit. Indeed, that cheapened the accomplishments. However, putting in alternate acces that was just as challenging to a group or two as the raid encounter was for the raid, that would in no way cheapen the previous accomplishments. I never experienced any of the alternate access quests they put in, so I cannot comment on whether those were challenging or not.<
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Quote:You'll just never be able to convince me that everyone deserves the exact thing in the game because they all pay the same amount a month<
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I never tried to convince you of this. At every turn I've been saying equal gains for equal effort. Alternately, you will never be able to convince me the raiders are inherantly more worthy than other players simply because they have an abundance of free time available.<
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Quote:That's just not how I think a MMORPG should operate<
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Of course, just about every raider agrees with you. God forbid someone threaten their monopoly of l33t and self-superiority. <i></i>

I think you are missing my point if you think it is elitism +++!. I was never one of the first to see new content or the first to have an uber item (although I think I was first on Lanys to have a BONESHEAR, woot woot!). A person who takes up tinkering or blacksmithing, and takes the time to find the schematics/recipes and the ingredients has put in dedication just as much as a person who raided UBRS for however long. If I do blacksmithing, yet only do it in Ironforge with the recipes available there, should I be mad because another blacksmith can make better swords than me? I don't doubt that some blacksmiths are mad about that and personally, I just don't operate that way.<
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Am I elitist because I think those that "work harder" at achieving things first should be rewarded for their efforts? I don't even fit into this category but I still think they deserve being rewarded for going that extra mile. <
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Quote:Good for you. I'm arguing that games don't have to be some fucking pit where you sell your soul away. <
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And I am arguing that if you don't have the time to put in that some others do, you shouldn't be able to get the things they get. This is not Doom we are talking about, MMORPGs are unique in this manner. If you can't accept this, then you should play Diablo or Dungeon Siege. That way, you are guaranteed to see the same things as everyone else.<
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You continue to harp on raiding, as if raiding is all that matters. I am thinking time invested, period. I remember when what's her name (drawing a blank, she was a Shammy) was the first to finish that earring quest in EQ (the one that took all the tradeskills, I forget its name). That was time invested and I don't think you had to be a hardcore raider to get all of your tradeskills up. If a person isn't willing to take the time to get all of those tradeskills up, should they still be able to get the earring via an alternate method? I say no. Does this make me elitist? Or does this mean that I believe time invested = rewards? <
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It doesn't have to be via raids, that is just the easiest comparison to make. There are hundreds of similar scenarios that I could use (gaining faction to buy different mounts, for instance), I just picked raiding, forgive me. If you can't see where I am coming from, I understand it. We all have our views on what games should offer (online and offline games alike). I'm just not the type that thinks anything is owed to me in any situation.<
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edit: Spiritseeker? bleh <i>Edited by: Neesha the Necro  at: 7/22/05 1:14 pm<
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... by the way, the "you" in my post refers to anyone and not specifically you, Bzalthek... <i></i>

Yeah, don't worry. It's a lively discussion, I'm not going to take anything personally though.<
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That "time invested" thing is what I've been urging for.<
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I don't think I ever asked for casual to get the exact same loot as raiders got, but of the same quality (for the time invested, i.e. manhours).<
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The earring is a great example, took a long fucking time, but (aside from the access to the elemental planes) it was a raid-quality item that didn't require a raid. In all honesty, however, there should have been a lot more on the way up. Because a raider doesn't just start in Elemental, he works his way up through gear and flags. A casual player (who may or may not play a lot, just not have the consecutive blocks of time for a raid) would also work his way up to such quests through other quests and challenges.<
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I'm not even saying no raids, at all. Just not the need for continual progressive raiding or raids longer than 2-3 hours. a 12 step challenging quest could have 7ish group tasks, each taking about 1.5 to 2 hours, 3-4ish 2 group events each taking 2 hours, and 1 or 2 (3ish group) mini-raids. culminating with a big 3 hour event. 24 hours of solid play with a bunch of people over many days, busting their asses (and with a potential to fail) to get Luclin boss-equivalent loot. Better do a bunch of these because the Tier1-PoP-equivalent events are much more difficult. ((EDIT: Hell, if you want to drag it out even longer, you can sprinkle a whole bunch of solo shit in there that eats up time. Epics had a bunch of soloable steps.))<
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And raiders fly by in a tiny fraction of the time.<
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I'll try to boil down what I'm saying. If you are unable or unwilling to raid, you should still be able to obtain items on par with raid loot providing you bust your ass for them. The designers, however, would have to get off their asses and design it. <i>Edited by: Bzalthek at: 7/22/05 1:35 pm<
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You want rewards to pay out based on time spent, but most of these games pay out reward based on risk.<
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The rewards for an encounter designed for 40 people will not be the same as for 15.<
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Look when you go to Vegas, and sit at that video poker machine and keep plugging in quarters, after so many hours you expect a return. Now if you sit at that same machine and plug in $5 bets, your putting in a higher risk, and have a chance for higher rewards.<
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If it's a social game wouldn't rewards be better for 40 people getting organized than 15?<
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With 15 you can do Strath, Scholo, etc, but you won't be doing MC or Blackwing without 40. I just don't get why you expect the 40 person rewards for 15?<
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The 15 would need to put in 2.6 times the amount of played time to directly equate to the same rewards, and that doesn't even include a difficulty factor for organizing 40 instead of 15.<
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Let's give this a 1x, so you need to invest 3.6 times the hours to get equivalent rewards. I'm sure if you built a point system of time vs points for rewards you could equate this all out, but Blizz clearly said that they were designing instances to appeal to different player styles.<
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It's like you jumped in a Ford Focus and expected it to be a Co
a Mustang in performance. If Blizz gave you a ridiculously long quest to get an epic drop of MC quality, would you really spend a month doing it over spending a couple days in a 40 man raid?<
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Quote:You want rewards to pay out based on time spent<
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Nope<
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time and effort spent. I've said it numerous times, but no one seems to hear it.<
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Quote:Look when you go to Vegas, and sit at that video poker machine and keep plugging in quarters, after so many hours you expect a return. Now if you sit at that same machine and plug in $5 bets, your putting in a higher risk, and have a chance for higher rewards.<
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guy puts in $5 pulls the handle = guy puts in $1 pulls the handle five times. Same risk ($5), same rewards. <
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Quote:If it's a social game wouldn't rewards be better for 40 people getting organized than 15?<
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Is it too much to expect it to be more difficult for 15 people to get organized 8+ times over the span of 2 weeks or more to balance the one time 40 people have to organize?<
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Quote:With 15 you can do Strath, Scholo, etc, but you won't be doing MC or Blackwing without 40. I just don't get why you expect the 40 person rewards for 15?<
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Because, given enough time, the effort 15 people put in can equal that a 40 man put in. If you want to get technical, the margin for error is also higher with 40 people. 1 person screwing up and dying won't cripple a 40 man raid all the time, but that's a precious commodity in smaller groups.<
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Quote:The 15 would need to put in 2.6 times the amount of played time to directly equate to the same rewards, and that doesn't even include a difficulty factor for organizing 40 instead of 15. Let's give this a 1x, so you need to invest 3.6 times the hours to get equivalent rewards. I'm sure if you built a point system of time vs points for rewards you could equate this all out, but Blizz clearly said that they were designing instances to appeal to different player styles.<
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A) If Anixcor/Scruffs can organize a raid, I don't think the effort is as much as you think it is. <
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B) Otherwise, the extra play times put into the non-raid loot was what I was arguing for. 3.6 times the play time is plenty of time, I'd even throw in another x1 to x2 solo stuff to keep the people busy. It's not like we want it handed to us (most of us), and working hard for it is fine, but raiding does not have to be the only answer<
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C) I don't think Blizzard can be relied upon based upon what they say or how they design things. Some things are nice, somethings are shit, most of the time it's poorly thought out.<
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Quote:If Blizz gave you a ridiculously long quest to get an epic drop of MC quality, would you really spend a month doing it over spending a couple days in a 40 man raid?<
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Yes, in a heartbeat. And many other people would too. WHile the raiders get all their gear immediately, I will be more than happy to not raid (as much as a raider), and spend forever questing mine. I like playingt he game, I like being a hero, I'm rather blase about being a cog.<
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Quote:If Blizz gave you a ridiculously long quest to get an epic drop of MC quality, would you really spend a month doing it over spending a couple days in a 40 man raid?<
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Hell yes. Most (if not all) of my guild would say the same thing, and so would most of my other in game friends. <i></i>

Just some overall comments, not really directed to any major point.<
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This comment goes somewhat with what Calten said earlier... They really need to include everything and everyone within the game the itself. Throw the instances out and
ing everyone into the pool. The differences and difficulties posed by dealing with a full sprectrum society made the game play and social enjoyment grow exponentially. I don't believe isolated everyone on several hubs supports any type of social gain or growth. The things you may of hated or maybe had the most difficult times with in EQ 1 made people come back for more. <
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If you haven't played EQ2 as of late or have given it a decent chance then you may not agree with it (you may not agree with it anyway) I think they have implemented the best balancing concepts for hard core or casual players. Though thye do need to populate more raid encounters for hard core players but esentially eventhough I may not have some of the coolest, shiniest loot with all the cool particle effects. My gear is very coparable. I'm a casual gamer now, I once was a raider... I have a job, grad school, fiance', etc. etc. and in a family oriented guild. We have done everything anyone else has, it's just set up somewhat different and goes through a different progression path. Though they do place a
idge in between everyone with heritage quests. This was a really great idea. It places a common bond between casual and raid gamers. The social interaction is great and I see familar faces every chance I play. Anyway, this is more opinion heavy towards EQ2, but I like what they've done as far as balance.<
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I hope Vanguard takes some old school EQ concepts and the better EQ2 concepts, with some of their own
ainpower and make something great. If EQ2 continues at it's rate, I may not even look at Vanguard. I hope they construct a very prominant social environment and from there create their game. Regardless of what conceptual build or standpoint you take in a MMORPG... if you do not focus on the people it won't last. EQ1 was great because of the player base it created the first two years, and because of that people played and paid for a mediocre game for years after that. I'm with Azzi in saying, i'll take a couple of good years if they are willing to sacrifice all the wonders of 2nd gen MMORPG's. After that they can mess everything up if they want. <
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Take care,<
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Quote:I think they have implemented the best balancing concepts for hard core or casual players. <
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I know next to nothing about Everquest 2 so fill me in. What content is there in EQ 2 for the Fires of Heavens and Conquests of the gaming world? What does EQ 2 have that would persuade a guild in WoW that has already beaten most of the raid content to be willing to switch over to that game? I'm interested to know what real EQ-style raid content Everquest 2 has. <i></i>

Not that it has much relevance in the conversation but you did ask to be corrected.....no companies don't necassarily want to have as many customers as they can, they want to make as much money as they can in the long term. Which I am sure you aware doesn't always directly correlate with customer base numbers.<
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That being said...it isn't just "time invested and effort", I am not sure of your raiding background or your role in leadership etc but it is pretty hard to quantify the additional effort that is required to organize 72 people for a 4 hour raid verses a group of 6 of you working for the same hours put in by the raid. Take Rathe Council for example...something with rewards like that like that at least before numerous expansions and mudflat ion should not be obtainable by a small group of people, period.<
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By rewards I am referring to access to time and the amazing gear (at the time) it offered. Plus some of Rathe's loot. It isn't just time invested it’s the ability to get 50-60-70 people working together with out one single person making one error for an hour. You can not find an equivalent task or quest univocally that can compare with that, unless you throw countless hours at it. <
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Raiding gear should be the best not because of the time requirements necessarily but because it takes a much larger organizational skills, in essence they are rewarding the only true skill that is involved in online games aside from how many hours you can throw at something.<
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Sure alternatives should be available to non raiding players but to think you should reap the same rewards....there isn't even an argument there. No amount of time invested should yield what raiding does, (on the end game scale) or else you will be rewarding some one strictly for time invested which I believe they need to get away from. To each their own but I will be the first one to gladly admit I couldn't even begin to understand a person who doesn't agree with the fact that the best of the best should be people who are killing things that require 40+ people that only yield one-two items verses some group of 5 people who simply throw time at the game and expect the same results. Agree to disagree I guess.<
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Bottom line is not everyone can be equal, its an idealistic dream that doesn't really work in today’s world no matter where you are applying it...sorry not everyone is equal, nor should everyone have the same rewards, grade school is over.<
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Quote:You can not find an equivalent task or quest univocally that can compare with that, unless you throw countless hours at it.<
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That's the mantra I keep hearing, I disagree.<
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In the end, it's a game, not real-world eXXXtreme, and a little bit of imagination is all that is required to overcome the 'king of the hill' mindset. <i></i>

I'm just not familiar with this new "everyone's a winner" mindset. I've heard rumor about it in schools now, where everyone gets an award, everyone is told they are special.<
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When I went to school only a select few got awards. There was competition and while there had to be losers to allow for winners, the system worked. <
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I read an interview with the CEO of a major corporation, and he said the largest issue with the hiring of young people today, is their mediocrity and philosophy of everyone wins. In the competitive capitalistic marketplace, this hurts a company.<
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It stifles innovation and creativity. No one is trying to be the first to figure something out, cause everyone gets the same award.<
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So is it the everyone win's mentality, or is it the unlucky streak of not being a winner looking in from the outside resentment?<
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I use winner/loser arbitrarily because it's easier. I could attempt to use terms more sensitive to ego's but this thread is beyond that. So pls don't get hung up on the semantics, and instead focus on the overal concepts.<
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I'm a bit confused with your post.<
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Is that what you think I'm advocating? Giving everyone a medal regardless of what they do? <i></i>

Pretty much <
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(or at least giving everyone a medal for doing SOMETHING) <i></i>

Ah I see, so we're back to the 'raiders are better than other people' argument.<
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As it stands, raiding is currently the most challenging thing in the game, but that stems not from the inherant challenge of raids but rather from lazy or poor game design. <i></i>

One could argue that making extremely hard one-group quests for phat lewtz is equally lazy and just as poorly designed. <i></i>

Maybe you are right, maybe they need a game that overcomes that king of the hill mindset but I sure as hell wouldn't play it and don't think many would.<
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And while you can say poor game design is the reason behind raiders being known as better then single people etc....think about it for a second. Every thing you could ever dream up in a 1 group scenario you could duplicate for a raid and the difficulty would be increased simply because of the coordination required. I wil totally agree if they increased the quanity of rewards that were given then sure the rewards should be more in line with single group stuff but the general idea is a raid requires a lot more effort to pull off and something you just can't duplicate in a single group environment, thus the best results.<
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Games are incorporating tradeskills etc into higher end game stuff now so there is some blurring of the lines but I truly hope that is the end of it...I don't even like that idea honestly. <
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Me personally...I honestly wish they took the majority of the good things from EQ, invented a new setting, a few new ideas and classes and back story etc and keep the general idea behind that. EQ is getting a bit to big honestly and the new expansion while sounding cool kind of turned me off, so I will be laying low with RL until Vanguard is out or I can beta it. <
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Again though everyone has their own ideas and wants, I am sure there is a game out there for everyone. I for one though even when I am only a casual gamer or will be one do not want to have the oppurtunities to be 90% as good as some one busting his balls being part of a team taking out large encounters, that line just shouldn't be blurred in my book, it runs the whole idea behind the game to me, then again I have always been extremely competitiive, I can see where a person not raised that way could have totally diffrent ideologies. <i></i>

It's also not like less competitive folks won't ever get the same encounter. They often just get it later. So the edge of competitive people is to do it first.<
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In WoW basically everyone got to through the main instances in record time. The only 10% content was MC, and now BWL.<
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So the majority is busy spinning up alt toon #4.<
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