BETA-0 started for friends and family of devs.<
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public beta soon.<
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Link to Forum info<
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a PC Magazine blip about VG:<
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"MMO's have been getting simpler and more accessible to the casual gamer, and that's a good thing," says Zack from Sigil. "But that's not what we're doing."<
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Erm. An MMO without an instance in it sounds a risky prospect, but Sigil reckons it's got it covered with elaborate item usage, where critical battles will only be launched for people with the correct item, and an advanced series of charecter-specific battle features that enable parties to daisy-chain their attacks together. It's squarely targeted at the daylight-fearing MMO hardcore, and we'll know more once the developers have got more of it to show us.<
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Oooo my type Frosin Loneshadow Assassin of Najena <i></i>

Oh a grind MMO again? No thanks. Taking Vanguard off my "must have" list. I don't have the time to sit and grind out levels and whatever else you need to do anymore. <i></i>

finally a game for hard core gamers and no child's instances, now the little ones who think they are tough in instance games shall see how weak they are, Vanguard has two checks on my list now. <i></i>

Screw instances... Frosin Loneshadow Assassin of Najena <i></i>

Instances and easy leveling have been the bane of the second generation of MMo's. They need to throw that shit out the window, and make their player base have people they hate inside of the game. <i></i>

One thing I can spoil is Vanguar's trade skill system. For example, if you make a sword, the degree of the fire and which one you bend, how hard you hit will affect the end item. <i></i>

w00t.<
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I went and registered for the boards and now I am awaiting more info. I have high hopes for this, due to the folks behind it. <i></i>

That's pretty neat, each item will literally be 'unique', no more lazy crafting, now you really pay for the extra hit or the extra degree of temperature for crafting =P. <i></i>

Quote:Oh a grind MMO again? No thanks. Taking Vanguard off my "must have" list. I don't have the time to sit and grind out levels and whatever else you need to do anymore. <
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Not really directed at you because I don't know your playing habits, but what I find strange are the people that say they hate to grind yet have 3+ toons in thier 60s in WoW. <
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To me making the grind easier doesn't equate to no grind at all. In fact it just makes leveling seem trivial and more of a waste of time when you do get max level instead of seeming like an acomplishment if it was harder to get there in the first place. <
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But hey that's just me I guess. Psylok, Retired Monk of Lanys<i></i>

Quote:and an advanced series of charecter-specific battle features that enable parties to daisy-chain their attacks together.<
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Ugh I HATE combat chains. Other than that, it sounds pretty good.
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Keep my head from exploding?... You can help!
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Combat chains in FFXI were very nice, You can definitely play without them, but a good party ran about 5x as efficiently. <i></i>

Combat chains piss me off. When I'm trying to manage my mana and keep an eye on the parties health (yes I'm a healer) I don't need fucking cahin icons flashing and people screaming at me to cast my biggest spell. *shrug*<
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At the very least people should discuss the use of combat chains at the beginning of group. <i></i>

Yes well, an efficient group also doesn't scream at their healer to cast their biggest spell, but anyways. Just because they are there doesn't make them mandatory, but it enhances the level of play, and adds dynamics, especially of chains are seperated by weapon types. <i></i>

Looks interesting. I stopped playing WoW cause of the ease factor as well. I actually look forward to a grind game.<
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This will sound ludicrous but some of my favorite EQ moments came during my grinds in the Overthere. I liked the forced interaction that you had to have with people before they dumbed down EQ. I don't think theres anything wrong with more casual games, just not my cup of tea.<
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P.S. Sarnak inc. <i></i>

Don't Pull Sarnak Knights or Sabertooth Tigers! The exp they give isn't worth the healer's mana. Anything else is fair game <i></i>

You're not joking. Sabertooth Tigers were a bitch of a fight. <i></i>

The rhinos ran too fucking fast. - joxur<i></i>

God I could have become fluent in a second language in the time I spent in OT groups on my various characters, I swear to god. Only zone I spent more time in than OT was blackburrow, every single character I ever made that got past lvl 5 went to blackburrow. <i></i>

So far, im seeing jack shit offered so far that could be considered revolutionary. Another hosh posh collection of "MMORPGS GREATEST HITS VOLUME 8".<
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Who cares now really. Boring. Everyone is so jaded at this point with getting hopes up for that next mmo to come along to blow their balls. Who cares what they roll out. People will sheep it up, and follow whoever dangles the carrot closest to their faces. <
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This flag stands for freedom, and I live for what it stands for.<
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Well it seems to me we all welcomed the features of WoW with instances, rest exp, and casual gaming, but after playing, it left a sour taste. <
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EQ1 was a pain in the ass, difficult, long tedious game, but god dammit the hardship made victories oh so much sweeter, and the friendships built better.<
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If you read enough of the Vanguard posts, you get a sense that those issues are directly being addressed by Sigil. <
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Will they get 2 million suscribers? <
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Hopefully not.<
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Quote:So far, im seeing jack shit offered so far that could be considered revolutionary. Another hosh posh collection of "MMORPGS GREATEST HITS VOLUME 8".<
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I agree, but I fear that if someone actually came out with a game that was "revolutionary" everyone would go "that's not how an MMORPG is supposed to be" and not even try it.<
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Jaded bastards all. <i></i>

Hopefully by the time beta is in full swing I will be able to be back to playing games again, I have been following this one from the start and outside of the trade skills I am pretty excited about it. Definatly going to see a lot more mature audience playing this one plus I am hoping with L2 and a few other key titles keeping the asian crew busy that Vanguard won't fall pry to a horrible amount of the ebay bug.<
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All I ask is that they don't freaking mess up wizards, we are ment to do damage not f'n 100 useless utility skills that we won't ever use any way. <
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Frosin should email me once you get into beta, I need a slaying partner! mailto:jjohnson178@hotmail.com <i></i>

What makes you say the audience of this game will be "more mature" ?<
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What, exactly, do you mean by mature ?<
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It will be played by people with more time on their hands to play games, but that doesnt necessarily mean those people are "mature".<
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I think it would be better to say " this game will be enjoyed by more hard core gamers ".<
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I will probably watch this one from the sidelines, but i didnt even have time to level a WoW character to 60, with the way work and home life is going now, so there is no chance i could do anything in this game.<
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Its good to know i shouldnt even bother, though. There should be a MMRPG for everyone, including hard core gamers. I hope this fits the bill for those of you who like that style. <i></i>

Quote:EQ1 was a pain in the ass, difficult, long tedious game<
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Yep and I refuse to play any game like this again. We will see how long all this "grind MMO" goes until MS starts to pressure them. MS wants as much money as they can get. All this hardcore talk will change once Microsoft says: "We need to talk. 50,000 people is not enough." People forget who is in charge here and it's not Sigil.<
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Quote:I will probably watch this one from the sidelines, but i didnt even have time to level a WoW character to 60, with the way work and home life is going now, so there is no chance i could do anything in this game<
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I have a level 42 hunter and no level 60 anytime soon. No time for it. Working long hours and school takes too much of my time to play games like Vanguard. <i>Edited by: Evilundead Afterlife  at: 7/15/05 12:02 am<
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I've been following the development of SoH & I'm curious as to why you are all convinced this is only for hardcore players.<
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That it will have enough content for hardcore players is a given but how does that impede the more casual player? Why must a game be either hardcore or casual? <
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From what has been released they are after the core gamer, not the hardcore; although they'd like to appeal there also as well as to the more casual gamer.<
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Explain please.<
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Kula <i></i>

It took SOE a couple years to fuck up EQ1.<
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I'll take a couple years of good.<
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I personally believe a good MMORPG can provide for both casual and "hardc0re". EQ1 had folks zoom to 60, and others who never got past lvl 35 and had fun doing tradeskills and chatting.<
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It's why I believe they have the "sphere's" of tradeskill, and diplomacy planned. <i></i>

i spoke to nearly all the devs and people involved with vanguard at the e3 convention in los angeles. from everything they told me, they want vanguard to be a priority emphasis on group play, with raids and solo play following. to me, you don't have to be hardcore or casual to group... you just have to log on when you want and play.<
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now, hardcore will need to raid. and casual will need to, at times, solo because they may be online at odd hours. but the priority and emphasis is on group play. and that, my friends, is where vanguard will yield to the majority of players.<
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hell, when everquest first started off, it was basically a group game, with little to no raid content. as the years went by, then it became much more raid concentrated and focused. kunark and velious were fantastic expansions that offered content for pretty much everyone; except, of course, that velious was geared for lvl 30+. but there was more than enough group content to satisfy many people, and (especially with velious) there was a ton of raid content to satisfy the hardcore.<
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once luclin came out, though, with the crappy ten shard vex thal quest... then it all began to fall apart. and planes of power, for all the greatness that expansion was, is still essentially a raid expansion first/group expansion second.<
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i have high hopes for vanguard, after what i saw at e3 and what i continue to see on their forums.<
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-cc <i></i>

I'm sick and tired of the hardcore/casual arguments. The same qualiity gear and progression shoudl be available to all. <i></i>

VG will be the win.<
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Quote:The same qualiity gear and progression shoudl be available to all.<
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This makes no sense at all. <i></i>

Exactly what about it do you have trouble understanding? <i></i>

Somehow I don't think a casual soloer should be able to have the same rewards that are available to a group obsessed fanatics. Scale that up to a raid if you would like. If you mean that group rewards should be equal to raid rewards then I would still disagree.<
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Brad has stated pretty clearly that the best rewards will involve all 3 spheres. So in a way it will offer what you are asking for. Raids alone won't get you the best stuff. An organized guild will help you along greatly though since crafing will be more efficent in a group and diplomacy will be ...umm I have no idea how it will best be done. <i></i>

Well, if you mean if I soloed tonight, my rewards should not equal the rewards I could obtain if I grouped tonight, and those rewards do not equal the rewards I could obtain if I raided tonight, then yes, I agree.<
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However, let's take a hypothetical situation; as in, not specifically about any game.<
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If I raided with, say, 25 people, and we spent 5 hours raiding, and if that raid was a success, it will yield loot that is of very high quality.<
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In your typical game now days, that loot is generally much better than any loot casual players can get. I don't think it shoudl be this way. (Notice I said casual, not soloers. MMOs thrive on community interaction, but that doesn't necessarily mean raid)<
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In your raid atmosphere it took 25 people 5 hours to get loot. That's 125 man hours invested. I contend that casual players should be able to have access to the same quality gear, with the same amount of man hours invested. This means long drawn out quests and multiple objectives. (This does not necessarily mean camps ala Lodizal, Stormfeather, or Quillmane) Say one phase requires a minimum of 5 people 2 hours to complete. That's 10 man hours. Etc etc.<
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Further they shoudl be designed towards a casual timeframe, with no phase taking more than 2 hours to complete with exception of final battles, etc, which could take around 3.<
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Let me note that I prefer to raid myself, but I never understood the philospohy that if you want the best gear, you must become a raider. A casual player spending a couple weeks to obtain a piece of gear that is of equal quality of that which a raider can get in a single night is justifiable <i></i>

I can't argue against hard long quests that yeild very good results. I like those. I get the impression from following VG for a long time that people are going to be surprised by many things in the game. <
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1) Quests having multiple solutions. One or more of those solutions, but not all, will have additional quests
anching off of them.<
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2) The absolute need for multiple sets of gear. This will almost force individuals and guilds to move thier main camp. Yes, you will build actual buildings near where you are currently hunting. <
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3) Crafting and Diplomacy will supplement raiding and grouping in making the best armor. <
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4) Counterspells.<
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5) Some classes will advance via gestalts. This means they will explore and find things that advance them instead of the regular kill for advancement that we assume is the path in MMOs now. <
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6) Your house, your guild hall, boats you build are all open for attack by mobs and can be destroyed. Here's to hoping that faction will spawn large raids that come after guild halls.<
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Anyhow, they have a good faq section you guys should check out if you want to find out some of the sekret sause. More info should be coming out with the fanguard happening in Las Vegas in the next week. <i>Edited by: Guurn  at: 7/16/05 10:54 am<
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Quote:The same quality gear and progression should be available to all. <
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We probably just have different play styles or tastes, cause I’m adamantly against this.<
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I feel doing what you want done dumbs down the game and makes it way to fucking easy and boooooooooooring. <
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If I want to go accomplish something solo or casually, I’m not going to play an MMO that I’m shelling out almost $14 for a month. If I want to just pass an hour or so and not deal with people I’ll load up a FPS or RTS game.<
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I liked my MMO´s when I interacted with people, and I like that EQ, (only example I have to go off of, forced me to do that. Not only did it force me to, it forced everyone, which is why I think their was a real sense of place and belonging in EQ, and why, for me at least, WoW felt like I was just going through the motions.<
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I’m a firm advocate of risk vs. reward. I enjoy it much more when an MMO is hard and forces interaction. <i></i>

You must have missed his next point, Warrior.<
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Those are really good points Bzalthek. I never thought of it that way, but now that I do it appeals to me <
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Anyways, here's hoping it's a good game and comes out soon. Someone get me in beta!!!!!111` <i></i>

It's not unreasonable to want a higher return on time invested.<
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The 25 people raiding for 5 hrs, not everyone will get a good upgrade item. In the EQ1 model you would be lucky to get 10 items. So you would need to raid the 5 hours multiple times.<
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Lets say 2.5 times, thats 25 people investing 12.5 hrs. <
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So are you saying a soloist should get a good upgrade after 12.5 hrs invested? <
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They raise the caliber of items by putting them into a "needs 25 people raid" category. Getting and holding together 25 people is often much harder than the actual 12.5 hour commit. <
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In WOW you could get a group of 15, and roll the Strath instance repeatedly at 2 hrs a pop until everyone got an upgrade. I'd guess that would be 3 runs, so 6 hrs invested for 15 to get upgrades.<
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So WoW in a sense "halved" the time commit to get an upgrade.<
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Is that what you're talking about.<
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Quote:The 25 people raiding for 5 hrs, not everyone will get a good upgrade item. In the EQ1 model you would be lucky to get 10 items. So you would need to raid the 5 hours multiple times.<
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Unless you were in the Plane of Time, of course. <i></i>

Quote:So are you saying a soloist should get a good upgrade after 12.5 hrs invested?<
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I made no argument for the soloist. MMOs are a community game. I made arguments for casual players. People with limited amounts of time alloted to them who still want to progress. WHile I enjoy having "content" to satisfy my soloist tendencies, I understand that progression, understandably, requires interaction with the community at large.<
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It is my desire to see a system that allows casual players to progress in the game at a level equal to raiders without the requirement of becoming a raider. This is, of course, offset by the time invested. <
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As with the 25 man/5 hour raid, loot is not plentiful enough for all. However, many pieces drop and a skilled raid with players paying attention can yield an impressive amount of drops. (poTime aside). Many targets have mini-bosses, many targets are in close proximity of other targets, and most bosses drop 2-3 items. All in a short amount of time.<
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It is not, in my opinion, harmful to the game to allow casual players the ability to obtain (one, possibly two) of the same quality items in a series of events which would, given a casual players time constraint, span the course of 2-3 weeks. These events would require several group encounter with a few (3-4) 10ish man encounters (including the final battle).<
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Quote:The same quality gear and progression should be available to all.<
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It should be indeed. <
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It was in EQ. But there was a pecking order. The hardcore raiders got to it first, got what they needed and moved on to newere encoutners, 90% of the time leaving older content to more "family guild" raiding types.<
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This is how it should be. <
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This flag stands for freedom, and I live for what it stands for.<
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Quote:The hardcore raiders got to it first<
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Quote:leaving older content to more "family guild" raiding types <
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Both types are raiders, even if the "family guild raiding types" are comprised of some casual players, they are still required to adopt a raiding playstyle.<
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While social interaction should be necessary for advancement, raiding is not the only type of social interaction available, and thus, imo, should never be the only route. <i></i>

I'm confused by your semantics.<
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Raiders are folks who "raid".<
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Raid is the act of taking on a dungeon with a group of people.<
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Do you differentiate casual raiders from hardcore raiders by the number of the group or by the time commit?<
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Casual raiders eventually get to the same content as hardcore raiders, but lag one cycle behind just like Given explained. Often times needing the next expansion's new gear to "easily" conquer the last expansions top tier.<
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ie. EQ1 lead to Kunark lead to Velious.<
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Each expansion had a 90% gear reward and a much harder to get 10% gear reward. Hardcore pushed to get 90% quickly and then to get the 10%. Casual often had to wait until they got the 90% from the next expansion to go back and get the 10% from the previous expansion.<
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WoW had MC which only 10% truly could go after, the "hardcore raiders". The casual players burned through the 90% too quickly, and want the remaining 10%. IF there was a new expansion from WoW, the casuals could do 90% of the new expansion and then go back for the 10% MC of the original.<
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It's not that they don't get it, they just get their cake later, and often need the easy from the next expansion to get there.<
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I view a raid as a "large" group of people tackling a raid-oriented objective. While raids are technically anything comprised of more than one group, 25/40/72 man raids are what I am referring to. Further, said raids almost alwasy require an impressive time commitment. <
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Small guilds/groups of friends/casual players are required to either ally with other guilds or leave and join "real" raid guilds and essentially adopt a "raid-guild mentality" to see that content. <
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Further, I would define your middle of the road "casual" player as a player who is able to play about 2-3 hours a night, 3-4 times a week, and to MANY people, that's a serious portion of their free time. And even with that schedule, how many casual players did you know storming VT with the easy from PoP?<
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Basically, what I'm trying to say, is surrounding your self with a bunch of people and hammering away at "raid" content shoudl not be the only path. The same quality material should also be available to people who would rather take the longer yet less stressfull or demanding path. <
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As an analogy; Raiders storm the cliffside and claw their way up the side by sheer force of will and well-planned strategy and swifty obtained their goal, while Casual players take the winding road around the mountainside, through the
ambled woods, across a swift river and finally, also, reach the top of the cliff but it took them a couple days to get there.<
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So... they DO reach it, don't they? Thus, the casual gamers DO get the gear that the hardcore get as well. <
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You just argued both sides there, sparky. <i></i>

They only get it if they adopt a raiders' playstyle, which, in essence, nullifies their status of a casual player. <i></i>

Quote: They only get it if they adopt a raiders' playstyle, which, in essence, nullifies their status of a casual player.<
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Words cannot express how wrong you are. Prophion<
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Good point, Van. You're
illiant use of logic has swayed my thinking dramatically. <i></i>

How's this for
illiant logic:<
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PoP comes out and if you want the harder-to-get gear, you must complete a series of quests (re: FLAGS) to access more content. You work hard and get the gear first since you are a hardcore player. Fast forward several months later, and all the hardcore questing you did to access said zones is dismantled and those zones which have the harder-to-get items are now opened up to the casual players. <
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Did those casual players adapt to the hardcore style to get access to Plane of Justice, Tactics, etc. or was it handed to them with little to no effort required on their part other than gaining levels (which became the only requirement for several zones)? I think we know the answer to this one.<
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Shall I mention flaggoting in casual people as well? This shows yet again that they aren't forced to adapt to anything other than joining a raid and running into the zone. No more wiping to Coirnav over and over again if you want to see the Plane of Time like the hardcore players did, just ask a buddy to invite you along! <
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I am not saying this is a bad thing, considering where EQ is now as opposed to where it was during the good ole' days, I am just proving that people can take that proverbial slower road and get there without compromising their play style.<
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<i>Edited by: Neesha the Necro  at: 7/19/05 4:10 pm<
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I partially agree. Opening up the zones to people who put no work into it wasn't the best idea. It essentially told everyone who worked hard that thier work was for nothing.<
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However, that came about by a large amount of bitching from the Casual players because they were forced to RAID, which I don't think is necessary.<
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Now, if, from the beginning, there was a series of quests which were difficult in and of themselves, but designed for casual players but took long enough to compare to the effort of a raid, woudl that really be so very bad? If 72 people can do something in an hour is it lessened by 6 people being able to attain the same rewards in 12 hours over the course of, say, a week? <i></i>

Perhaps I'd agree with the quest thing if the quest was random and you had to figure it out on your own, rather than go to a spoiler site and have it all mapped out for you. One thing I prided my guild on in EQ was that we honestly used our own strategies on virtually encounter even though we could have found out exactly how to do them if we looked deep enough (or simply asked around to our more "hardcore" friends). Much props to Uthal, Sujjitra, et al who came up with our strategies (kiting Pyronis while having Rangers Trueshot, for instance, was pure
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My point is, the hardcore people, in almost every incident, had to learn by trial and error. It wasn't just a case of "let's get 72 people together and kill the Rathe" (except for that one guild way back when, but that's neither here nor there ). If you want a quest that is equivalent to the Rathe encounter, it should take you repeated attempts just to figure it out. It doesn't have to require RAIDING, but it should require more than just delivering a note from point A to point Z with stops along the way. <i></i>

Agreed, simple delivery qeusts would not cut it. It has to be as challenging to a group (or two) as the equivalent raid encounter is to the raid. <
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Failure needs to be a real possibility, as well. Just as a raid can wipe on a mini-boss, failing the quest line could require having to start over. (Although quest items taking inventory space would require me to throttle a designer; I rather liked EQII's "mystical quest item bag" idea in that regard)<
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It's extremely feasibly to make quality, challenging encounters for small encounters. While I, personally, enjoy raiding, there are times I am feeling somewhat anti-social and not have to worry about blood leaking into my
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Honestly, the only limitation is the designer's imagination <i></i>

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I recently decided that this was part of the reason I haven't enjoyed recent MMOs as much. It's become reading a manual to play rather than just experiencing it. It was a very long time before I found EQ websites of such a nature and as a result was invested in the world from my experiences.<
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Whatever game I snag up next, I won't be touching the net for it. <i></i>

Just for the record, I am one of those types who prefer having the spoiler available as opposed to figuring it out on my own. I guess that's why I was never really gung-ho about being a beta tester. Granted, I'd be willing to beta test to find errors and stuff to report, I just don't think I am the type to want to figure out quests on my own. Perhaps I am just lazy like that. <i></i>

Reading what you wrote Bzal I get a sense that your concern lies in a group of friends in a guild must shift to more of a mercenary setup raid guild.<
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That's not true. <
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TSO, ROA, many friend/family orientated guilds raided top end content while keeping their original setup.<
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Yes, the top guild was typically more of a mercenary setup to get the extra efficiency/power to conquer more. Even these guilds have a sense of family and heirarchy. Conquest is a very tight group, and yes a greedy fucktard slips in occasionally, but usually after a bunch of drama a balance returns.<
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I think you might be surprised how tight the DKP type guilds can be. Of course with their mission statement being to conquer the top end, if you don't carry your weight (usually attendance) they will drop you.<
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Let's be honest, MMORPG gains are directly proportional to time invested. On Elune I know they run pickup MC runs, and back in the Lanys days Angarth, Pimm, and countless others did the same coalitions.<
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Vanguard is initially being built to appeal to the "hardcore" group that feels slighted by WoW's focus of mass appeal.<
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We have high hopes, but are not kidding ourselves that even Sigil may bend under Microsofts desire to be more mass market.<
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Quote:Let's be honest, MMORPG gains are directly proportional to time invested<
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So are you trying to say that a "hardcore group"'s time (which is accumulated swiftly) is more valuable than a smaller, casual group's time stretched out over a longer period of time?<
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I reiterate; raiding is not the only option, nor should it be. <
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Quote:I think you might be surprised how tight the DKP type guilds can be<
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I've been in Oryx, Furor in EQ, DKP in WoW, and I love each and every one of those goat-fucking bastards. I know how tight raid guilds can be. As I stated previously, I enjoy raiding, I'm a raider at heart. However, I also have friends who can only play casually due to real-life situations, and I understand their frustrations well.<
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Quote:if you don't carry your weight (usually attendance) they will drop you.<
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And therein lies the problem. As a casual player, 100 hours over many months months will never be as valuable as a hardcore's 100 hours over 3(ish) weeks. <
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Quote:Vanguard is initially being built to appeal to the "hardcore" group <
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And getting back to the specifics of Vanguard, if they're trying to appease the hardcore player, they're more than likely setting themselves up for failure. Hardcore players chew through content at a voracious rate and all they'll be left doing is scrambling to churn out more content for them. <
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This will more than likely result in cockblocks such as Rathe Council or Uqua or exceptionally long respawns on raid targets.<
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Quote:And getting back to the specifics of Vanguard, if they're trying to appease the hardcore player, they're more than likely setting themselves up for failure. Hardcore players chew through content at a voracious rate and all they'll be left doing is scrambling to churn out more content for them.<
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True and we will see how well Vanguard sells over all. I would be surprised if it tops 100,000 users. <i></i>

I'm still a firm believer that "Reward Gained" should be directly proportional to "Time Invested" whether that time is spent raiding or questing is completely up to the Devs.<
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WoW is a game that's spent questing vs grinding (most of the time), where EQ1 was a game where questing was a side effect of grinding (most of the time) or raiding (the rest of the time, think Velious here).<
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I honestly think that if content is challenging enough without being a cockblock (like much of late EQ was) then hardcore gamers will come back again and again, despite having chewed through it. Again, think back to Velious. Lots of top end guilds still killed Tormax/Yeli/Dain because it was *fun* to do so.<
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But saying that a casual player should have the same chance at rewards than a hardcore gamer
ings to mind thoughts of "MMO welfare" -- if you don't work for it, you shouldn't have it. Vanamar<
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Undead Warlock of Kargath<
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First Mate of the Pirates of Penzance<i></i>

Quote:I'm still a firm believer that "Reward Gained" should be directly proportional to "Time Invested" whether that time is spent raiding or questing is completely up to the Devs.<
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I believe this is what Bzot is saying as well. <
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That's precisely what I'm saying. <
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As it stands, 288 raid hours (72 people, 4 hours) does not equal 288 casual hours (6 people, 48 hours). This disparity exists because there is no path of progression outside of raiding. Casual players (well, most of them) don't want it handed to them, they want a viable option of equal progression compatible to their playstyle and/or not detrimental to their RL. <i></i>