I just worry they are doing it to sell copies. Good space combat is hard to master, and adding that to a balanced mmo seems like they are splitting their focus too much.

If it is implemented like Wing Commander, I don't like it.. we'll see. I just worry it will be implemented kind of like a lame mini game and without much depth.

If they actually have space combat like Eve, along with ground play like WoW/KOTOR, I'll be happy

Are you talking about more recent versions of Wing Commander? The last one I played was Wing Commander II and I remember that being really good. Also X-wing and Tie Fighter were absolute staples of the genre, were they not? It seems as though the wheel has long since been invented and it just needs a bit of Armor All.

In a world of finite resources... I'd rather they spend time on a traditional MMO, balancing and creating content around that, than twitchy space combat.

To each his own. I'd rather it have the space combat, assuming they can do it right. This probably just means the release date will be pushed back to 2013 now.

I dunno...from the way they word it, it sounds a lot like some mini-game that you can just goof around in.

According to them...Space Combat has always been an intended feature, but they had to decide at what point it was going to be important to mention it. It could be full blown like EVE (at least in terms of combat, not the mind-numbing boredom of EVE) or a Mini-Game.

Bioware did mention prior to this years Summer Gaming Convention Season that each convention, more shit would be revealed/released...as opposed to the standard 'This is what we have this year, lets show the same thing at each show'. I think each of their announcements is meant to feed off each other.

E3 we learned about Battlegrounds and Player Ships. The question immediately became "will we fly these ships somehow or are they basically (like the Ebon Hawk) stationary ships which serve more as player houses and less as ships?" I think their info from SDCC pretty much summed up that part of the question, leaving more detail to an obvious exclusive on the feature to be shown in Oct's issue of PC Game.

Based on this, I'm assuming that they already have a lot of the content either planned or implemented for Space Combat.

On the side note, if Space Combat was the big reveal for SDCC...hopefully for Leipzig we get some more details on the Advanced Classes or more info on how Battlegrounds will work. Most people know I'm not a HUGE PvP'er, but I'm curious to know if a lot of their PvP is based on lessons learned from DAoC and WAR since Bioware snipped a lot of the DAoC/WAR devs and put them on TOR.

They also say PAX will be their big event this year...so anything truly epic I'm sure they have saved for that.

Have they explained how a class without use of the force could ever stand up to a jedi/sith, from a lore perspective? I keep struggling with that...

How can a Warrior compete with a Wizard? I keep struggling with that.

The force isn't all powerful. Many Jedi/Sith in the books were taken down by people with no force sensitivity whatsoever.

Unlike most fantasy lore, which is filled with warriors defeating wizards, there aren't a whole lot of examples of people like Han Solo or Boba Fet defeating a jedi / sith.

In terms of the "Official George Lucas Canon", you are correct.

I guess that is the overall point Jox. I don't know 'exactly' how much you know about the Jedi or Sith of this era, but unlike the time-frame of episodes 1-6, being that force users are (relatively speaking) everywhere...people are trained on how to handle them.

Sadly, you can't think of the Smuggler class as a Han clone because Han didn't live in a universe of Jedi. Boba Fett is a bad example because his father trained him on how to handle Jedi and after the death of his father he perfected his art. On a geeky side note, there is a really funny bit of dialogue which occurs between Jaina Solo and Boba Fett in one of the far later books in which Jaina Solo flat out says "You've killed Jedi, that's why I want you to train me".

Jedi and Sith of this time aren't all Yodas or Anakins or Palpatines or even Starkillers (plug TFU while I'm at it). If you want to be a retard, think of the idea of 'Power Levels' from Dragonball/DBZ/DBGT...the Jedi of this particular area are basically of an average power level with their ability to wield or manipulate the force, where as in the Saga era (or the Movie Era) Yoda/Anakin/Palpatine are your Goku/Vegeta/Freeza's. And scarily enough, according to EU materials/sources, those three aren't the strongest force users either and several others throughout the Universe have been vastly more powerful. Although in an interview with GQ, apparently Lucas believes Luke to be "The Chosen One" and thus the Strongest Force User ever...since its his world I'm ok with giving him that. Luke in the later books/comics/etc isn't a pussy...although in Legacy he's a ghost.

This is one of the reasons why I'd like to see more info on the Advanced Classes. As I've prognosticated before, I can see the direction they're aiming to go and I understand all to well how a Trooper could take out a Sith Warrior or an Imperial Agent could take out a Jedi Consulor...I just want to know the details.

Like was said earlier...the Jedi/Sith in this game are probably supposed to be like the extras in the movies that get blasted by one stormtrooper while fumbling with his lightsaber.

In WoW, just because you're a shaman, you're not automatically Thrall and in Star Wars, just because you're a Jedi, you're not automatically Yoda. =D

I can accept that, thanks

Not every Jedi is a Yoda or Lord Hoth

Not every Sith is a Darth Sidious or Darth Bane

Average Jedi and Sith existed in the old republic era, Sith warriors who were nothing more than force attuned grunts and vice versa for jedi. So I can see a trained commando/assassin/etc who is non-force sensitive able to take on and defeat a Jedi or Sith here and there.


edit: Kham's post owned mine, next time ill read all the replies before my inner nerd wants to run to reply.

Hmm, the last good space combat game I played was Tie Fighter.

Freelancer wasn't bad. But not the calibre of Tie Fighter or Wing Commander...

Give me a Wing Commander with a campaign playable in Co-op where your buddies can be wingman / gunners damnit!

Tie Fighter and Freelancer were both great games.

X3 is really good too, but the learning curve is damn steep.

Privateer!

Strange, I was about to make that exact same post!

I dual boot dos 6.2 with every machine I have ever had just so I can play xwing, xwing vs tie fighter, tie fighter and secret weapons of the luftwaffa.

Nothing comes close to these games for flight sims.

Wow DOS 6.2 have not seen that for years now haha

While I'm inclined to agree, that's pretty hardcore. Though I might make a VM...

or DOSBox.

And you guys call ME a Star Wars Nerd?

Well you ARE brothers...

Playable Races Update:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rattataki

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chiss

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Twi%E2%80%99lek

Sith Pureblood
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_%28species%29

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Miraluka

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mirialans

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zabrak

Along with Human, there may be at least 2 more races: Mon Calamari and Kel Dor

ooo, I want me some Chiss!

Jesus, that translation is terrible.

Gotcha.. so it's a bad mini game.

I'd rather wait for the PC Gamer to come out to get it from the horses mouth.

Although I will say before hand that I wouldn't be shocked one bit of that is how it turns out. Seriously, were people actually thinking Bioware/LA were going to put in a FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR in the middle of an already overly ambitious MMO? KOTOR 1 had the On-Rails Shooter parts...why would they do anything different here?

Space Combat, regardless of how deep or shallow of a system it is, isn't exactly why I'd play the game anyway. I will admit however a mix of SWG's Spaceship system combined with some of the old feel of X-Wing/Tie Fighter 'would have been cool', just terribly unrealistic.

Why would they NOT put in a FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR? If they want the game to be the best, they need to aim higher than high. I am not doubting the game's potential, but there's no reason to think they can't produce more than simply a MMORPG and a space-combat-simulator-on-rails. Imagine if the final verdict was "it combines the best parts of World of Warcraft with the best parts of EverQuest with the best parts of EverQuest 2 with the best parts of Warhammer Online with the best parts of Lord of the Rings Online with the best parts of Eve Online." THAT'S a game that would turn the industry upside down. Will it happen? No. Does that mean we can't WISH it would happen? No. Does that mean that Bioware shouldn't strive to make it happen? Absolutely not.

Hehe totally agree. As I've said before, any game that even has a remote chance of offering a WoW alternative will have to be absolutely complete and borderline bugless from the start. It will have to have a bit of everything to even have a chance to survive.

If it was merely not a space simulator I think one could be content. Seems like there should be some middle ground between "OH MY GOD SPACE SIMULATOR PERFECT REALISM" and a mock-up of KOTOR from nearly a decade ago. Judging from some of those comments, it sounds pretty close to the former. As noted, they should be aiming high especially with WoW still around. This combined with the released info about character classes just points to the game being massively uncomplex in every way. I hope that's not the case, because I really want a good space MMO, but it's hard to hold my breath on this one.

I don't like the idea of having to do character and vehicle progression simultaneously,

Auto-Assault anyone?

Everyone gets to wear their white-knight hat from time to time, let me put mine on real quick....OK ready.


I'll cite SWG as to why Ground Based MMO + Flight Sim do not mix. That was supposed to have been a launch feature of SWG, but none of the Space Content was even out of the concept stages by the time the game was released. They did a shit patchwork job of getting it integrated but it was too late. The game was already terrible and adding a Flight Sim made it even more terrible.

"Could" Bioware have gone the other direction, and incorporated a 'FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR'? I'm sure they could have. But you have to remember that they are also working on the limitations set by Lucas Arts in some departments. I'm fairly certain LA learned some very valuable lessons from SWG and Sony, and decided that Space Combat for this game would be vastly limited. Besides the fact that in this game, you don't get to upgrade to 'Different' ships. You get 1 ship type, based on your character class, and you get to do upgrades to it. So you aren't going from a (using X-Wing ships) Z98 Headhunter to an X-Wing to a Y-Wing to an A-Wing to a B-Wing etc etc etc.


From the way I see it, they are already aiming pretty damn high with the game as it is. They're going to release a AAA Title with an Astronomical Budget, over 7 years of Development time, the full support of EA, the gaming experience of several studios NOT TO MENTION that (like Blizzard) Bioware has never released a 'Bad Game'. They have a stellar reputation for what they do, just like Blizzard does. And in this current market, I personally believe that Bioware are the only company who stand a snowballs chance in Hell at offering a product that at the very least can offer the same kind of play experience that WoW did 6 years ago. Go read their forums. The only people who want this game to "BEAT WOW" are the Uberfans who haven't played WoW in over 4 years and their opinions about it are all second hand based. Stories of how bad WoW is or how good WoW from a friend of a friend.

I see several reasons why they decided to not to do it...a more recent one than SWG is STO. Star Trek, like Star Wars, has a built in fan base which dwarfs WoW by the numbers. Yet the product they created, a Full Ground MMO + Full Space Sim MMO was a bomb. Sure, they probably made their money back on box sales and the idiots who went for lifetime subscriptions but it'll stay a float the same way LOTRO does...off an absolute niche group of super fans who are so die-hard to the franchise they won't let it go.



I don't disagree one bit. However, the idiom "fingers in too many pies" comes to mind. If Bioware took the best parts of WoW, the best parts of EQ1/2, the best parts of WAR (which I can see them doing this one since 90% of the WAR devs who didn't lose their jobs are on TOR now), but took the most mediocre parts of LOTRO (which are too numerous to name, Deeds/Traits being the big one) and tried to emulate EVE and fucked up...the veteran MMO Community would come down on their heads for 'stealing' ideas or concepts and totally fucking them up. Imitation and improvement only gain you accolades if you manage to make it better, Blizzard has learned this with several games...as have Bioware with their RPGs.

Like I said, a mix of SWG's Spaceship system combined with some of the old feel of X-Wing/Tie Fighter would have been cool to see but I understand why they aren't going that route.

It's only "fingers in too many pies" because someone hasn't done it right yet. Once someone does it right, every game will be held to that same standard. It is much the same way in which PVP has been incorporated into traditionally "PVE" games and is now expected. A MMORPG without PVP will not make it, period.

I disagree with pretty much every point you made in your post. You said it yourself, they've been working on the game for at least seven years. Let's call it 9 years by the time it is released. In 9 years, I expect ninja-pirate-strippers-riding-sharks-with-fucking-lasers-where-every-kill-results-in-a-fatality-better-than-Mortal-Kombat-10, not Mass[ively Multiplayer] Effect. As a consumer, there is nothing wrong with wanting or even expecting this, even if the developers cannot ultimately deliver the goods.

It's simple really. When you proclaim your game is the next coming of Christ, every facet of it better be top notch as fuck. If they are just going to throw in space combat ala Rebel Assault, then take that shit back to the kitchen and don't fucking come back with it until you get it finished and done correctly.

Space combat on rails... Seriously? How can anybody even defend that bullshit or even think it's anywhere near what people would want, especially when you consider the level of expectation this game carries.

I want this game to be as awesome as WoW was when it launched. Even better so. Everything else is boring as shit. WoW is boring as shit. Cata will be the same old but watered down to the level of Canadian beer. They have a crazy amount of backing. There is zero excuse to half ass anything at this point in time. I don't want that old feel of 20 other games. I want this one to do it right.



I don't really give a shit about the focus on story either. The Rebels win. If there isn't anything to do to keep you playing, I.E. character development/advancement, I'll throw this one on the pile with the rest of the bullshit MMOs that fall into this pitfall.

You're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else. SWG and STO were both monumental failures based on the hype involved vs what their respective companies attempted to deliver. And again, they only stay open due to a very niche customer base who're more loyal to the brand/franchise than the particular game itself. LA said about 2 years ago they think SWG and TOR will co-exist fine. I guess we'll see.

You think Bioware should over-bloat the game simply based on the idea that it has been in development for X amount of time so it should have Y list of features. Ok. This is where I get my smarmy ass revenge by saying Starcraft 2 was in development for 11-12 years and all it did was perfect what it had previously done. Every professional review of the game (after its release...) has basically said thus "It perfected the genre it helped revolutionize 12 years ago while doing very little to change the formula. It improved in the areas which needed improving". Genre is unimportant in this so don't bother trying to hide behind the "RTS vs MMO" crap. You're specifically talking about innovation at this point. Point out to me how this is any different? For all we know, TOR 'could' improve on every area which WoW did well while only adding the 'voice-acting' and 'story' elements to the genre...by the very definition, it has innovated where others have not.

Again, I'm not shocked this is what they're doing but I'd rather they pitch the idea of space combat entirely instead or develop it into something better than have it released as a half-assed feature/mini-game/etc.

I'M SO EXCITED FOR THIS GAME!

Not only are they going to show me how a bounty hunter can go toe to toe with a sith warrior, but they're also going to show how an x-wing can fly in one direction and have its laser beams shoot in an entirely different direction! Woohoo!

I dunno...I don't see a problem with a flight sim if they do it right.

Why? Because lets be honest here, the "standard" MMO system is pretty worn out. If you want yet another MMO where one guy stands in front of stuff and gets hit a lot while another dude heals him and 3 other dudes beat the stuff up, we've got tons of those. We've been there and done that.

And then we have a Star Wars MMO...and like I said earlier, it seems like a *perfect* place to break away from the old sword & sorcery MMO style. But it doesn't seem like they're going to do that. And even if you don't like WoW, you have to admit that any new game is going to be hard pressed to bring something new to the table that WoW hasn't already done to death using the standard MMO system.

It's been discussed before, WoW is kind of bad for the MMO market as a whole because of the stranglehold it has on the potential customer base of any other MMO. If another game wants to succeed, they'd better not try to just make a WoW-clone with different graphics because it won't have anything compelling to tear people away.

Space combat could be where they break away from the typical MMO systems with something that's a signature of the universe they're working in. For those reasons, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to bring that to the table.

I would rather a game did a few things extremely well than many things pretty good. To Neesha's point I certainly wouldn't mind a game that did everything I want and more extremely well, but if that isn't one of my options then I'm ok with the 1st case. I have high hopes for this game, I hope it lives up to the hype. Wow was the last game to really do that....well a few console games lived up to the hype but I mean computer MMOs.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthre ... dit3815248



Crisis averted, you can all stop crying that the sky is falling...for now.

I didn't really see any crying.

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/09/the ... -pc-gamer/

It's interesting reading this thread and the SC2 thread. You basically have an outfit like massively first expressing relief that the space combat won't have rails, and then proceed to outline a system that is.. rails! It's not a shooter on rails, it's a "tunnel shooter". Starcraft 2 doesn't do anything new, it "perfects a classic". Spin, spin, spin...

I hope the space combat is completely optional. I'd rather see a totally passive space battle sequence/cinematic than feel obligated to participate in a shitty arcade game that is single player only.

It's a shame. If they had space combat as a hybrid... similar to eve online, or maybe where you board the other ship and then proceed around inside it like a typical mmo environment, that could be fun. Implement a system much like Eve, but simpler, and incorporate boarding.. now THAT would be sweet. Can you imagine a getting 20 of your buddies in their various ships and trying to destroy/board a capital ship or something? A mix of RPG elements where you have to build up your own ships in order to survive, and then a switch to a PVE raiding environment on the ship itself, with the boss being a famed bounty hunter, slaver, sith lord? That would own.

I find it entertaining and a bit misleading that Massively is parroting the German article basically to the letter, saying that its a "Tunnel Shooter" not an "On-Rails" Shooter...yet Bioware's own Community manager is denying that Space Combat is either.

Well, the one tiny screenshot does not prove anything. I tend to believe that it is going to be some sort of "on-rails" shooter. Why else would Bioware's own Community manager not provide more details other than "look at the picture which shows nothing"?

Here's the picture that shows and proves nothing:



There's no proof that the tiny Millenium Falcon-looking ship is the one the player is flying and not just a ship passing by the player's first-person view from inside his own ship. Call me a skeptic at this point.

Skeptic.