I was wondering, if hypothetically one came across a set of die plates used to make silver "pieces of eight" from 1807

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieces_of_eight

Would it be illegal to have them? I seriously doubt any of you would know this for sure, but what are your thoughts anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carlos_IV_Coin.jpg

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Since it would almost certainly not be an authentic set of plates, and there are many replica companies producing them to sell at theme parks, I'd say no it's not illegal. Unless someone attempted to pass them off as legitimate.

Let's say for the sake of argument that they were authentic.

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if they were authentic and you obtained them legally you have something that is worth a ton of money. If not on the illegal market but to an antique collector.

IIRC the only way that there would be any is if they were stolen or counterfeit because the government (or mint) treats the die as more sacred than the money itself. When the certain set of coinage is out of circulation they destroy the die/plates.

Disclaimer: this is based on some research I did about 10-12 years ago, and I'm not a lawyer by any means.

In this case we're talking about coins that haven't been in circulation in a very long time, so it's unlikely that owning die plates for them is illegal. However, it depends entirely on how the country in question handles coin. The U.S. has very different laws for coins than we do for printed money. Coins are legally viewed as more a convenience than actual money (hence no "legal tender" statement on them). While it's still illegal to try to pass a counterfeit coin off as real, I believe it's not illegal to create coins as a novelty as long as there is a distinct means of identifying them and differentiating them from real coins. (This may be incorrect or outdated info.)

I can't imagine that the die plates are in any way illegal to own, or even to use for minting coins, as long as you're not trying to pass those coins off as legitimate.

Some very good information on the legality of counterfeit coins, in case you're wondering, can be found here: http://rg.ancients.info/guide/counterfeits.html - Scroll down to the section on Ownership of Counterfeits. It may be pertinent to the die plates you have.

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There is a series on History about "STories of Las Vegas" or something.... but one of them is about a guy who figured out how to counterfeit coins and made a ton of money. It's really interesting if you haven't had the chance to see it.

No real point, just made me think of it.

I always thought those machines that stretched coins and/or imprinted them with "SEAWORLD '09" or whatever were really illegal since they defaced government property.

US Law Section 331, Title 18. Essentially you're allowed to do what you want with currency as long as it's not with the intent to defraud.

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That's an interesting way to read that statute lol.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

In all seriousness, there's an ambiguity in the text of the statute and that reading is certainly a reasonable interpretation, but that doesn't make it the right one. Also, I might add that the text of a statute is not often the best judge of what is and isn't legal (unfortunately) even where it isn't ambiguous.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

It's also the correct way: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... nd-sell-it

However, one of the areas of 'misuse' which IIRC *is* prosecuted is using copper coins for copper value. At various points the copper in pennies has been worth more than the penny. I'm sure you've all heard about copper thieves, traditionally doing about $40k+ damage to homes stripping copper wire because it can be resold (and per house, they net about $30-40 bucks...but that's a lot to a junkie. Though many places pay less than that to the junkies because...they can.)

Anyhoo, you'd have to get a WHOLE shitload of pennies before you see any decent rate of return, at which point the govt. is going to bitchslap you.

Penny machines, no one cares about. Jewelry, same difference. No intent to defraud. And you can argue that the consumer took that individual coin out of circulation, plus there's no intent to defraud.

When you misuse massive amounts of pennies to melt down for copper...not so much. You're defrauding the govt. at that point, and it's illegal. Again, IIRC there were also some changes made I think to the export of pennies due to copper value issues.

Frankly I think they should just dump the penny, but that's just me. And if we need a copper-y coin, make some more with that gold tone, or do a partial copper mix on nickles or something.

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Oh and as far as your plates go...I don't know the specific law in this area, so this is a guess not based on shit I know...but I would also assume as others have that if you have no intent to defraud...it's okay to possess. And depending on the origination of the plates, they could indeed be quite valuable. There's been many instances of appraisers ripping people off, so if you think they're valuable, it is worthwhile to have a paid estimate done by someone you clearly wouldn't be selling to. Or get a free one without giving up your physical address and if it seems off, or if it's high then go for the paid.

Shit if nothing else it's worthwhile to make coins and sell them on Etsy or some shit with various potmetals. Lots of people like having fake coins if the price is right. And with the atheist Spaghetti Monster, there's that whole pirate theme that people will buy shit for.

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Oh, I'm sorry. Your Google search and link to "straightdope.com" trumps the fact that judicial opinion would be the only reasonable way to establish the meaning of a statute. My bad. LOL.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Go read the Cornell information then, it's as easily accessible. I already did prior to posting.

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Here's the original source I looked at, as well as links supporting their information...which I also looked at. I picked Straight Dope for it's readability.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715

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Cornell lists the statute. If you have any other information, I'd be happy to see it.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Keep in mind I've never said it's the wrong interpretation. I know it might be a little too nuanced for you, but what I DID say was that it was the wrong method of interpretation.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Already posted. However (and I have no idea why you're all LOLZ STRAIGHT DOPE LOLZ...they're a very good source of information for questions like this ) the biggest bit of evidence is simply this; the government is aware of the penny presses, and there's no prosecution of them. They're in widespread use throughout the country. If someone got a wild hair up their ass tomorrow and started issuing fines (which IIRC would have to be decided by the court since the statue was revised from $2k to as determined, etc.) a viable defense would be; no fraud, and it's been in widespread acceptable use for ...shit at least 30 years, probably far more.

If you have anything that offers an alternative viewpoint, besides LOLZ, I'd love to see it.

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Correction on my end, I should have said 'common' rather than correct way, most things in law aren't black and white issues But Tyral was correct in posting that interpretation it is the common one. There's no reason to read it otherwise. Unless you have a case you can cite.

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My apologies for skipping all the court rulings and such that involve that particular statute. I could have gone into specific details after some research, but I figured listing the statute that was involved and the end result of those rulings was enough.

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You're not reading carefully. First of all, I've never said Tyral's interpretation itself was wrong. If you read the post just before your first, I acknowledge that it is a *reasonable* but not *definitive* interpretation. Unless "straight dope" cites to someone with actual authority, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me. The only problem left here to be resolved is your ego.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

I changed my 'correct' to 'common'. Perhaps you keep missing it.

And as far as ego, that's amusing. There's no ego involved on whether I'm correct or incorrect. If I'm incorrect it's a bonus for me...I get to learn something.

So if you have anything to add to the discussion I'm eagerly awaiting it.

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See, now Tyral is engaging me on the real issue. He's saying it was petty for me to have expected the case law to be cited.

When you cite to a statute with a fairly open and obvious ambiguity (such as an aggregated adjective like "fraudulently"), it's not particularly helpful if you make a conclusion solely on the statute. It's not entirely logical; the syllogism is incomplete.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Tarot, who cares about the "common" interpretation of a statute if it's incorrect? Seriously?

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

But you're not saying it's incorrect. And you have nothing else to cite that we should be basing it on.

So again, what are you bringing to the discussion beyond what's already been said at the links others have provided exactly?

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Also, there's a distinction that you yourself made earlier between a de minimus infraction and actual infraction. Just because the coin pressing machine isn't prosecuted every time it's used doesn't mean it does not fall within the statute. Its value as "common" interpretation fails for that reason as well.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Seriously if you have something of interest that we can all learn from, great. Otherwise, you seem to want to make this quite a bit about you 'Tyral is calling me peeeettty...Tarot is all about eeeeego'.

You'll find plenty of that in R&R. And perhaps it interests others. It really doesn't me. I'm interested in information. Got any?

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I suppose the only value that was contributed there was a big "hey, let's not move that fast", and I think that actually has value when it comes to the law. Most lawyers would agree lol.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

I do see what you're saying, but I guess the problem is just that you don't necessarily put the same value on knowing what you don't know as I do. I'm not saying that's bad, just that it's why we don't agree that there's value there.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

I should rephrase: you don't put as much value on being aware of the things that you don't know directly. It's actually one of the biggest problems that you face in the law: what you don't know can kill you. You HAVE to be aware of the limits of your own knowledge.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Jesus christ, just shut up.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

And then there's that approach. LOL.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

And since you didn't know that I was aware of some of the legal rulings regarding that statute when I posted it, and made the false assumption that I had come to an interpretation on my own, I guess you'll have learned a lesson of your own about the limits of your own knowledge.

Either that or you'll continue to jump to incorrect conclusions without asking questions first.

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To end the thread :



And, I present to you...

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

That might be a valid criticism of my first post, as terse as it was, but I followed it up with a much better way of saying it. And why should I have to guess what's in your head? It seems like the case law should be pretty relevant here, given the ambiguity in the statute.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Seriously though, guys, I'm not just some random schmuck off the intarwebz. And I'm not trolling, either. A reasonable sense of caution in the law is a good thing. Really.

Furiously searching for that case law aren't you? LOL.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Pennies haven't had much copper in a long time. Mostly Zinc with Copper plating.


Edit: left out a word.

Fortunately for those amusement parks nobody prior to this has found out those machines exist.