Recently an issue has came up at work that I thought would be an interesting discussion. I'd ask HR directly but since this situation is pretty serious I'm trying to avoid asking them about anything related to the situation.

The problem started with someone who was getting their blood drawn. That person was vocal about the draw (that it hurt, they didn't do it right, etc) to the person drawing the blood. The person drawing the blood then proceeds to talk to a coworker in their native language. This made the person getting their blood drawn uncomfortable as they felt this was rude (especially since he felt that he was being talked about by the two techs) and they filed a complaint.

The two workers in question were told about the complaint. I'm not sure about specifics on this next part. I've heard they were told to only use English when in the presence of our "customers". I also heard that they were simply told about the complaint but were not told what to do. In either case, both of the workers now feel they're being discriminated against if they are not allowed to speak to each other in their own language. My question is can a company enforce an "English-Only" policy when working with their customers? Is being told to not speak your native language WHEN WORKING WITH CUSTOMERS a form of discrimination?

I would tend to agree that speaking another language in front of your customers is rude and inappropriate but I could see it going the other way too. I'm pretty sure they were never told to NOT speak in their native language in front of customers but is the company in the wrong for asking them to speak only English after a complaint?

I'd hate to be in HR for a situation like this.

I assume both workers could speak English.

There's no reason for them to speak a different language if that's the case.

The US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) more or less agrees with the employer.

From http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VC (emphasis mine)

Yep. Both speak English just fine. I'm assuming they spoke to each other in their own language to talk shit about the person getting their blood drawn but I'd imagine neither one would admit it.

The biggest thing - to me at least - is that they were dealing with a customer.

I would think that your employer can pretty much tell you to treat customers however they want you to when you're on the clock.

I bet Tarot can post a long experiential story that involves someone she knows. I bet this VERY THING happened to that person.

Bottom line: If you speak English, don't speak another language in front of the customer, it's rude. The person didn't get fired, right? What is their beef? What's up with the sense of entitlement that everyone has these days.

They didn't get fired but because of this they filed a lawsuit citing racial discrimination.

Such a huge LOL for that.

In essence, they're being told to not be rude to customers. I wish I could sue for that.

Heh, I used to work for a company owned by immigrants, and they'd always speak their native tongue among each other (and most of the time, it was semi obvious they were talking about business or an employee).

Several people got fired when they politely asked that when discussing business matters, that they do so in a language everyone understood.

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There's a lot more to it. Other employees have joined the lawsuit (present and past employees) but this seemed to be the trigger for it. Racial discrimination, unsafe work conditions, blah blah blah.

you're a dickface joxur.

Choo choo, all aboard the money train! And don't be a bitter bee, surcam.

I've been in this scenario before, but I knew enough of the language they were speaking to be able to pick up the context.

It's very rude for anyone to start speaking a different language when they know English.

And you can usually tell by body language and tone what the purpose of their conversation is, regardless of what language it's in. A work-related conversation sounds/appears different than a "talking shit about this guy" conversation.

Let me guess: They are Filipino?

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

No. Somalian.

Interesting comment about Filipinos though...considering I'm Filipino.

Hahahaha.

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Marauder Harabakc Goat

awesome!

And joxur, don't front, you know you're a dickface.

I lol'ed.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Hehe, I asked because one of the hospitals I used to work with had an entire nursing floor that was filipino dominated and they'd speak nothing but tagalog unless directly required to use english. It was do the point where a manager would direct a nurse to do something and that nurse would look over to her friend and mutter something in their language and the other would snort...so you know they were being insulting. They'd use it to discuss other nurses with the other nurse standing there catching their name in the flurry of tagalog. The second someone raised a flag about it out came the race cards. "Oh noes joo are peeking on uses because we are teh phillipines!"

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Wow Somali people drawing blood... I hope they got their own blood tests before working at the hospital!!!

And im pro English everywhere for business and whatever, within the country, we really should have a national language.

I also believe every person should have proficiency in *at least* 1 other language prior to graduating high school.

Doesn't matter how many people jump on the bandwagon. As Leo pointed out, they really don't have much of a leg to stand on.

Nope, don't know anyone who faced this situation, probably because it's extremely clear that the employer has the right to make that request. They don't have a leg to stand on...and in California they *should* know it.

It's also a potential HIPAA violation, which is another reason the employer should guard against it. Employees may think they're 'safe' in discussing patients and may do so in a manner which is a HIPAA violation, which puts their employer at serious legal risk.

Long story short, it's a reasonable and legal demand. The ONLY leg they could have to stand on would be if they're required to act as translators or their foreign language ability is EVER utilized by the employer. Then they could argue I guess that the employers demands are unreasonable.

Oh and of course if only *they* are singled out and others are allowed to speak their secondary languages...then absolutely they'd have a claim of specific discrimination.

They would not necessarily though if another person were allowed to talk in their language because it was a PRIMARY language (if you had someone who did not speak english but spoke only spanish within the context of their employment (such as someone who doesn't have to deal with the public and needs no communication skills to do their job, or deals only with other speakers of their language...or someone with a disability who cannot speak english, such as someone who is deaf and uses ASL.

Ultimately though...reality can be different. I've seen valid employee issues that were things people could sue over (I had a valid case for discrimination at one job)...but you won't really win. The risk of loss is high enough that attorneys won't want to invest in it, because the 'win' isn't substantial enough to justify their costs. And unless the employee pays out of pocket for it (hahaha most do not)...it's a non-starter.

Conversely there's MANY such cases that are baseless, but it costs the company much less to just throw money at it to make it go away. Sexual harassment suits were pretty much like this, where they were often settled to the tune of $40-80k because they cost too much to defend, and juries were sympathetic. Eventually though, the argument that the losses added up forced some companies to 'make examples', and they started fighting the most egregious cases with big warchests. The claimant would lose, and lose big. And because they were picking those cases, they would pick people who were lying, so then the company could sue them personally for malicious filing etc. and bankrupt them. A few of those, and people started thinking twice. (They also went after the attorneys too).

Long story short there tho (too late!) some companies will still settle certain types of suits because it's 'easier'...but they'll fight those which can cost them too much in the long run.

If I owned that company, this would be the type of case you'd fight. They don't have legal ground to stand on, and it's a dangerous precedent to allow them to set. Then again, I seriously doubt they'll find someone to represent them UNLESS they can demonstrate something more than 'boo hoo we got told to STFU because we talked shit about patients'.

Especially since you have to think about the fact that they'll have to convince a jury of their position. How do MOST people view what they did?

They dislike it, and think it's rude and know/suspect someone is talking shit about them which is uncomfortable to enraging. That's what a jury is going to think. That's what most people are gonna think.

So unless they have a laundry list of other shit...they're on a sinking ship.

Also word to the wise, employers sometimes are so scared of those kinds of people they'll essentially become bulletproof. They won't fire them, because they're afraid that will trigger the lawsuit. They WILL sometimes take out *everyone* around them.

So if I were you, I'd stay as far away from this shit as humanly possible.

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Lot of truth there, and it only further empowers them.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Tarot/Leo, I think you might be off slightly. I haven't read the entire thread, but I will comment in general because it came up in my Law & Ethics class a month or two ago.

In summary, there have been some big cases about this. Most notable is where a city (NY I Think) barred employees from speaking Spanish on the city walkie talkies or something like that. Their position was that it was for safety or something, but the city lost.

In short, the law says this:
The burden is on the EMPLOYER to show that there is a legitimate reason to impose an all English standard.

For example, if I work at McDonald's and speak Spanish with my co-worker at the the burger building table, they cannot tell me "no Spanish" because there is no reason to enforce English there.

Positions like "it makes people uncomfortable" or "it slows productivity" in such a situation has been knocked down.

In short, the precedent is "disparate impact". That is, you cannot impose a rule that disproportionally affects a group unless there is a legitimate business reason.

I can cite some case law if you insist, but in most situations, the all-English position generally loses.

And I should note that the whole thing is very fuzzy. Both sides have won and lost, but it gets complicated. I dunno... but it isn't as cut and dry as some people would like to think.

/shrug

Holy shit! I didn't think you were capable of uttering those words!

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Wtf does front mean

The issue IS business impact though, the complaint was generated by a client (person getting blood drawn by the employees who then spoke to each other in a language unknown to the client, who believed that they were using the language to specifically talk about them).

They would *only* have a leg to stand on if they could justify the conversation due to their sometime use as translators, as then their conversations MIGHT have a legitimate work purpose. Even then the employer could make a policy prohibiting etc. except when actively translating, and if assistance is needed then the person must excuse themselves from the other customers etc. (Which they should anyway because of potential HIPAA issues in health care. They shouldn't discuss one patient in front of another patient).

Now if there's more shit to the story...that's another issue of course. But based on the original post, seems like 2 employees got a legitimate complaint, and have decided to play the discrimination card to bluster past the fact that they *were* rude to a client. Even if they weren't talking about the patient (and really, does anyone think they weren't? ) it was still extremely rude and out of place.

Which is okay (though shitty) to do to a coworker in the breakroom. Not okay to do in front of your clients while you're working if your employer doesn't accept it.

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Actually, the gist of the lawsuit is discrimination against blacks but this was a big factor in them getting a lawyer. The person spearheading it was a previous employee who was let go about a year ago for being a shitty employee but screamed discrimination when she was fired. She claimed that she was being forced to work in substandard conditions. For example, if an ECG machine wasn't working, she described it as if there were exposed wires with sparking flying out of it while she was standing in a puddle of water from leaking pipes. I believe she was finally let go for missing work too much (among other things) but of course, in her eyes, she got fired because she was black.

From what I've been hearing, the corporate lawyers aren't too concerned and have dealt with issues like this previously but it was always just 1 person. There are about 15 plaintiffs with twice as many people who are actually named in the suit ranging from supervisors to the CEO.

Sounds like the customer was being a douche bag. They started saying "Hey this guy is being a douche bag" in Somalian and he decided to be an even bigger douche bag and try to get them fired. Whats the lesson here? Wait til the douche bag leaves then start talking shit about him.

Or learn to speak their language It's pretty fucking amusing to have someone make a snarky comment in a foreign language only to watch the shock on their face when you reply in kind and ask if they'd like to discuss it further outside.

Note: Serbians WILL take you up on this offer.

They can't say "no spanish" but apparently they can say "english only".

What the hell are you doing hanging around a bunch of Serbs?

'No spanish' singles out that language. 'X only' excludes ALL others not 'X' without discrimination.

People also react different to it too. I think if you said 'No Spanish' (or whatever language) people would see it as racist. When you say 'English ONLY', people take it as a form of nationalistic pride, like when some businesses were posturing over that issue. (Specifically I recall Gino's in Philly pulling that shit a couple of years ago when it was a big in the news issue). Gino's also stands out in my mind because he was demanding his *customers* order in english or GTFO.

Plus his cheesesteaks suck anyway.

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Jox: I think there are some places where you just can't avoid it.

So if a Serb followed you out and kicked your ass, does that mean you got.... Serb'd?

haha that made me literally laught out loud because it was so bad it was good.

Thanks, Joxur :p

Tarot can never use those words again...

Like Serbia?

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This cat was easily my size and knew how to back it up. I'd say after a good 5 minutes of settling the problem (heh, we'll call it a draw once we figured out neither was one of us was going down straight away), we went back in and consumed much alcohol. To this day, I consider him one of my best friends. Also found out he was ex-national basketball and former paramilitary. That's the one-two punch of Serbian insanity right there. Best wingman ever, tho!

Totally different culture over there heh.

Judging by his stories he's lived somewhere around 4 lives. I think he's a vampire.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Heh, fairly accurate statement. Started in a shithole in Philly, linguist in the Air Force, struggling IT entrepreneur in NC, IT consultant in Denver. Of course, in my 30's now I'm slowing down

Tastykakes and Taylor's Pork Rolls make us stronger!

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Lol, you are a sad little person.

Just curious, why is it shitty to talk your native language in a break room? It takes effort to speak a second language, why should someone be forced to do it just because someone who does not know the language is present?

I do not believe this is an accurate statement. I think a lot of people are making loose, anecdotal assumptions whereas case law disagrees.

Again, it is circumstantial - such as at the McDonald's burger table.

It's rude to cut anyone out of a conversation. Yes, I know you can counter with 'it's rude to butt in!' but we're talking about an area 'public' for employees, and while everyone will join their various little subgroups, it's rude if you're at the same table for someone to engage someone in a conversation that others can't participate in. In precludes anyone who doesn't share that language from being able to join in at all.

I personally couldn't give a shit, because if I find it rude, I'll say something. No need to be a dick about it, but if (for example) there's a small smoker bench and it's a general break and suddenly another language breaks out...I'm the type who'd say something if I found it rude. I don't always find it rude.

In fact, even though I live in Southern CA and it's majorly multi-lingual here and most workplaces I've had has had a variety of languages and cultures there...I can't think of anyone who was doing that in staff rooms. It's not to say it never went on...it might have. I never noticed it if it did though. So I never found it rude. The only staff I ever saw speaking another language at work...was the cleaning staff. People presumed it's because they speak no english. That's wrong, they do speak english. I know because I'd talk to them (I'll talk to anyone, you're surprised I'm sure). Their english was almost always better than my spanish. Anyhoo...what I understood them saying was just normal banter. I assume they spoke in spanish because it's more comfortable for them to do so, and because it draws no attention to them. Custodial staff chatting in spanish gets less attention than it would if they were chit chatting in english, weirdly enough. Had they had the same convos in english, I know for a fact some people would have complained about them being 'chatty' because there were some douchebags where I worked. But in spanish, it's just background noise to those same douchebags.

Anyhoo the only place I can think of offhand where it's common, is where I used to get my nails done. It was also clear (or they're REALLY GOOD ) they're not talking about anyone they're working on, it just sounds like they're gossiping about their shit. I don't find it rude, I don't care at all. I'd probably care if I thought they were talking shit about me, but even if they ARE talking shit about me, if they're doing so in a way I can't tell (and I never suspected they were so if they were...they were good) then meh. What do I care? I didn't feel it disrespectful nor did I feel disrespected.

I do know some people though who get BEYOND PISSED if people are speaking any language not english around them, as they find it super rude. I disagree with that point of view. Often I find it follows a strong 'anti-immigration' viewpoint as well. I won't say it's racist, because perhaps it's not always. But it often smacks of racism.

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The problem is that a lot of the time it IS being used as a private method of talking shit about someone else at the workplace.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

It's the same as talking shit about someone out of earshot. What does it really matter? As far as I'm concerned, if someone talks shit about me in a language I don't understand or out of earshot, it's the same as them thinking it to themselves. Some people think that any laughter they hear is at their expense too. Some people need to get over themselves.

I'm pretty much with Raethong. I don't really care about this at all.

It's not anecdotal, I copy-pasted that from the EEOC link that Leo posted.

/agree. That was my thought as well. Or any number of things people can do to communicate with each other without the person knowing what's being said.

That being said, I think you could have a system where it would not necessarily be discriminatory - not that I'd agree with it anyway for the above reason. I don't see a requirement of one language being spoken to be necessarily discriminatory so long as it is done for the purposes of making the business' environment more accomodating in that everyone can understand each other. There's no demonstrable intolerance going on so far as I can tell if it's done for that express reason. I guess I'm very pro the rights of a business to have the freedom to choose, and I've always been a little questioning of anti-discrimination laws. Businesses that discriminate should be shut down by people who choose not to give them any business, not by government.

Anyway, back to the point... Whether it's rude or not is more or less in the eye of the beholder. I know I don't get upset by someone doing that near me. Is there any particular reason to find not knowing what another person is saying offensive or rude?

Assuming you could see people chatting the back of a room, out of earshot, that'd effectively be the same thing. Why isn't there a call by businesses to get rid of that as well?

Like I said - not for making businesses allow it, but I'd prefer to see society to move in the right direction at least.

Varying levels of perceived rudeness, especially when in the eyes of a customer.

And making the assumption that the customer won't understand you shit-talking them is a bad idea. More than a few times I've surprised housekeepers in the hotels I've worked at when they start talking in Spanish in front of me and assume I can't understand them at all. I'm not fluent, but I can get the gist pretty quick.

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I'm going to learn what White Devil means in the major languages to get this covered on my end.

joxur : for chinese, you're looking for "bok gwai lo"

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

If you and your friend are discussing EverQuest and someone walks in who has no idea what you're talking about, do you change the subject so they can be included?

Certainly you (of all people) would not suggest changing your behavior at work to suit people's norms, right?

Come on, where is your indignant outrage that "the man" is trying to control these people?

Bit of a silly comparison, tho I see where you're going. But saying, "So, we pulled the mobs, and they wouldn't split*Jane is a turdsmuggler of a boss who eats llama-pooh covered asscock*so we decided to just train to zone and kill the other spawns." isn't nearly as slick, yeah?

Actually, Orme, I saw it as evidence of personal growth. You might take a compliment once in a while. By the way, stop trying to play lawyer. You're not very good at or smart about it. Yes, non-lawyers, even those with MBA's, can get in trouble for answering legal questions like you seem to be offering. You're just going to have to trust me that there's a really important line there and offering to cite case law is a pretty solid example of it.

Edit: I deleted my previous response. In repose, I decided not to continue the flaming, despite having plenty of tempting ammunition.

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

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