Been awhile since we had one of these threads so here we go. If you're comfortable with it, show us your page(s).

Facebook Lanys T'vyl Alumni Group

Myspace Lanys T'vyl Multi-Community Group

Surcam on Facebook

Surcam on Myspace

If you add me on either, let me know your Lanys name. I won't accept if I can't figure it out.

Add anything I've missed!

I'll add you if you join my Mob Wars mob =D

Just deleted my LJ, Myspace, and Facebook accounts. Never used them. Meh.

I think I joined one, but deleted my myspace account. I made contacts with lots of old friends, but then remembered I hate everyone.

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I use both to look at random people's pictures when I'm really bored. I don't actually use either for anything productive.

Social networking is a huge part of today's professional world, as well as a great social tool.

What are you a cashier at McDonald's who lives in their parents basement and needs no friends?

When I see myspace or facebook, I don't think "professional" -- The opposite happens when I see linkedin.

I see myspace as a place for general faggotry, facebook for more serious social networking, and linkedin for professional networking.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I know. I've met colleagues in the gaming industry, most notably -- who use Facebook and Myspace. It depends on the industry. A lot of other professionals I worked with and know used LinkedIn, even Twitter, to put out updates about their products and stuff. My general rule is, if it helps me get to know someone and be more productive, I'll use Facebook, Myspace, or LinkedIn, or whatever they use. That's the point of making connections.

They're definitely distinguishable though, I agree totally.

And it helps to have seperate profiles on myspace or facebook for your personal side and professional side, and never ever link the two in any fashion.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Good advice.

For the most part I'm gonna have to agree with you Van.

While it's good advice I guess....it's pretty pathetic. Maybe I'm fortunate enough to live a life where I can tell people to fuck off if they don't like the "real" me as opposed to the "professional" me.

Maybe not everyone can do or feels they can do that. I suppose, in a way, I've intentionally directed my life in such a way that I can do that.

Here's an XKCD to help explain! (These are always handy for this.)

While I agree with the sentiment behind that cartoon, it's kinda sad that's where we make the stand; over pithy little pseudo-blogs.

Here's the quote I love:

"An employer has no business with a man's personality. Employment is a specific contract calling for a specific performance... Any attempt to go beyond that is usurpation. It is immoral as well as an illegal intrusion of privacy. It is abuse of power. An employee owes no "loyalty," he owes no "love" and no "attitudes"--he owes performance and nothing else."

-Pete Drucker

And I agree. I show up for interviews in combat boots and jeans. Tats on display. It was a very quick way of telling the people looking to hire me that if they wanted me, they were getting ME.

I've never really had an issue because of it. I realize I've probably been fortunate, but given what I do, they don't tend to care what we look like, as long as we're good at what we're doing. heh.

As for the rest of it, I've always maintained that if they go digging for me in private spaces, they have zero room to bitch. They went looking for it, it didn't intrude upon their work life.


As for Facebook, it is insane how popular it is in the UK. Seriously. They've all gone nuts for it. All I have to do is stand up and glance around the office and that logo will be somewhere on just about every monitor I can see.

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I think the fact that you are showing up on interviews, rather than sitting at one job for an extended length of time, could mean that perhaps you DID have an issue because of it (and that attitude in general), you just didn't realize it. However, I think you are using hyperbole here.

Not hyperbole. I saw him go out on interviews (and was mortified, I might add, but that's beside the point). Sometimes it takes people a while to find the right fit, but he did find it, and he's been with the current outfit since 2001.

That unwillingness to compromise on core personality aspects for a job was one of the things I always found admirable when we were together. Sometime frustrating, often a bit baffling, but always admirable.

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Hope is the new black.

I guess it depends on the job as well.

How would that apply for teaching jobs?



I could never, ever be that way as a teacher. It's too public of a job. I have a facebook, and like many teachers at my school I have 100s of students who me as a friend on it. My existence as "Fribur" on the web has never been connected to it, especially since I have said a lot of controversial things over the years on the web as Fribur.

If on Facebook I put my personality out there just as I actually am, I imagine I would lose my job within a week. What's more, I don't think I could get a job anywhere in the US as a teacher if I did. How long would I keep my job if I had students as my friends on Facebook, and cussed on it, or mentioned that I occasionally look at porn, or whatever?

It's a nice sentiment, but there are some jobs out there, especially when working with children, where being totally honest about your personality on Facebook would be a quick one-way ticket to the unemployment line, unless you live a picture-perfect life.

It just depends on how much you want something. Rugen isn't willing to compromise when it comes to the job, and thus finds work which does not require that he compromises. You really want to teach, and thus you will conform, at least in appearance, to the requirements of the teaching profession.

I don't think there's really anything wrong with either stance. Everybody has a threshold in a variable location separating what they want and what they are willing to do to get it.

I wasn't even aware lanys HAD a myspace group.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Don't you hate that about "the children"?

Anyone can make anything about you sound bad if they want, as long as they attach it to "the children"? ><

Would you like to rub my tummy.... with the children?

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I sort of lean more toward Fribur's position, actually. It's all fine and dandy to display your casual, social, party side to the world, but I don't think it's practical to expect people in a professional environment to take you seriously if you use the same aspect in your work life. If it's critical for you to be exactly the same person at all times, ever unchanging, and make sure that everyone knows it, more power to you. Just realize that it's going to have consequences. Sure, some people might find a corporate office that wants to hire "CaptainKegstand1983" but that's not going to be the case, on average. Most people understand the notion behind different comportment being applicable to different situations.

I fail to see how dressing and presenting yourself in a professional manner is conforming to the wishes of "The Man".

because he's an obnoxious gay who forces people to accept who he really is instead of being a normal person and realizing that's not how the world works

And I fail to see how wearing a button down shirt and slacks actually makes me a better administrator than just me in a tshirt and jeans. It's a completely silly and arbitrary notion. Fortunately, my employer agrees with me. They get the same effect, regardless, and I get to be comfortable.

As long as I can fix what is broken, proactively plan for the future, scale their shit, and protect them from attack, no one REALLY cares what the computer guy is wearing. The only ones that do, in my experience, are useless middle managers that don't have the first clue what you actually do so they latch onto the one thing they can to "manage". And once again, fortunately that type of person doesn't last too long in my environment.

*shrug*

It boils down to this. Work is roughly 1/3 of your life. Decide what matters and pursue it because being uncomfortable/unhappy for 1/3 of your life just isn't worth it. Perhaps a dress code and an informal atmosphere isn't important to you. It was to me. I did the suit/consulting gig. It wasn't for me. And the type of people that type of job attracted sure as hell weren't for me. Recognizing that and getting the hell out of that system was one of the best things I ever did.

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I had a job like that 10 or so years ago. And now I completely understand why they allow you to do that after you described what you do.

You are completely out of the public eye, save for a few times when they need you to stand next to an exec when they are going over presenting their budget for the next quarter or you're running cable for a new cluster.

We called our area The Hole. Nobody came down there. We even had someone cart in the daily work orders and cart them out once we did our thing and signed off on them. Any interaction from upper management was handled over the phone or through email. There was no dress code because nobody gave a shit about you, only what you put back thought he door or making sure their tech worked.

If that's what you want out of the job, then it's the perfect career for it and I can see why it's important to you if you enjoy doing that. I still don't think that is a case of conforming to the norm, as you don't really crawl around a server room in a business suit. It's just part of the trade.



So what's your excuse?

That's not quite our environment. I'm more OS level than hardware, although when I first started, we did both. The data center guys do mostly what you are describing these days. The admins are right there with the rest of the company, from the VPs, to the account execs, to the admins.

Heck, one of the three founders still walks around barefoot and in Hawaiian print shirts. heh.

It just boils down to the fact that there's no real logic behind dictating a dress code for what we do. As long as the job gets done, why not let the employees be comfortable. *shrug*

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Cuz I'm more well educated than like 75% of the American population.

Besides, he was talking about going to interviews in general, not some niche employment gig where you're a troll in a dungeon and never have to interact with people outside of your co-workers.

Hm.

I can wear jeans and t-shirts to work, I don't work in a cave and I've met more of my customers than just about anyone else in the company, and I do the same sort of work Rugen does

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Jeans and T-Shirts on a regular person versus army fatigues and tats on a fat gay guy are a lot different, dude

You haven't seen my jeans or t-shirts.

I've shown up to industry conventions wearing ratty, torn up jeans and a t-shirt I picked up off the floor.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

haha

Alright, whatever. You guys are citing exceptions to the rules but they don't make the rule. I concede that a lot of IT guys are slobs. I get it. Same w/ other places like call-centers and low-level entry work.

shrug, I work in a job that more than pays the bills, and I can be myself doing it.

that's more than most people.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I just thought this was funny.

I don't know why you guys focused on clothing. I thought the topic was being yourself on Facebook and the possible consequences. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans instead of a tie at work is a whole lot different than making some kind of porn joke on your Facebook page and it being found by your employer or worse, the wrong customer.

It's either that or "I'm better educated" which isn't exactly correct either.

I would rather someone show up to the interview looking like a slob so that I know what I get if I hire him. It's the people who interview well and go crazy on you that are bad.

But in general, I'm not hiring a slob unless I have reason to believe he is brilliant. There are too many good, normal people out there who won't cause me headaches.

I agree with Fribur, as my company (I work for AT&T, and not in the call center) is routinely firing people based on their Myspace / Facebook accounts. My Myspace has no connection to my Internet Persona, nor does my Facebook, although I hardly use it.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

It's the same thing to me.

Any company that is going to fire me for my personal life that they had to seek out (ie, it was not in the office) is not somewhere I want to be. Whenever I read about people being fired for blogs, facebook, or whatever, I just count myself really fortunate that I don't have to play that game because I have a sane employer.

Plus, the facebook discussion is kind of moot. Don't you have to approve people to look at your profile? So how would they ever just trip across whatever you said?

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Also, here's the thing I don't get about this mentality.

Let's say you work for Company X. Company X has a no smoking policy at work. You don't smoke at work. However, you are walking down the street one saturday afternoon, having a cigarette, and monday morning you are fired because some middle manager saw you.

Is this acceptable to you? Because it boils down to the same thing. I'm really kind of surprised at how many people seem to be indicating that it is ok in their book.

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Those were the only choices that came to mind? Fucking christ, man, at least put a little effort into it.

In my profession, my personal life IS part of my job. Sometimes that sucks, but it's also understandable. With some of these students, I see and work with them more than their own parents. I have a huge influence over these student's lives. As a result, how I present myself to these students matters both to the school administration, and to the parents who trust me with their kids. Your claim is that this is insane?



How would they see my Facebook? Well-- I have several students (about 50) who are "friends" with me on my Facebook. I also have several parents who are friends with my on my Facebook. Whether or not I allow them to see my Facebook seems irrelevant to your position, however. Your claim is that my personal life shouldn't matter, and so I should apparently be able to show that Facebook to anyone I want with no fear of retribution.



That's not the same at all. It's not even close to the same. If I tell a dirty, racist joke on my Facebook and my students read it, in my opinion it simply doesn't fall into the same category as the situation you describe.

No, I claim that I wouldn't do it. You've chosen to. Obviously you have decided that the rewards you gain from your job outweigh the inability to just be yourself in private spaces. I wouldn't, but then...teaching isn't my passion. Fortunate, I guess, given my views.

You've not only gone into the facebook situation knowing you'd be judged in a private setting, but you've let your judges in when you didn't have to. Again, your choice. My co-workers can show up at my house, it doesn't mean I am letting them in. :p

Living a double life? Yeah, that's a bit insane to me. I'm not saying you don't have your reasons. Just that I don't agree with them personally.

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Then I ask this: Do you think that anyone should be allowed to teach kids, regardless of their personal life? In other words, do you think your philosophy works for everyone?

Leading question, trying to twist it to where you want.

I think that anyone that teaches kids, has obvious success at it, and is good at his job shouldn't have to worry about telling a dirty joke on his facebook page.

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This is what it really boils down to. We shouldn't have to be worried, but it's a fact of life based on who you work for. I have a completely casual dress code, I work in a High Level Account Management area for AT&T and deal with Fortune 500 business clients on a day to day basis, and only have to dress appropriately for various customer facing functions. However, I run the risk of losing my job if the people I work with and for, could associate "Jed Hollander" with "Solanthious" because sadly this is the world that we live / work in.

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"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do isn't very pretty"

Which is why he'd never openly make the connection, especially on a site that is indexed by google bots!

Arguing this point with Rugen reminds me of Venen arguing about people visiting the boards while at work.

Both Fribur and Rugen have a point. Rugen is right in that what you do on your own, private time shouldn't affect your work life, except for the big, obvious things (like, oh...I don't know...being a child molester).

However, Fribur made the decision to allow students and parents to "friend" him on Facebook. He did NOT have to do that. My own facebook, myspace, etc is private so i can choose who I do and do not befriend. If I choose to allow my boss, a source, a coworker to be my friend on one of those sites, I leave myself open to scrutiny. That would be MY decision. If I then criticize my boss and call him all sorts of names, it's my own fault.

In the same situation, now that Fribur has made the decision to allow parents and students to see his personal Facebook page, he must now monitor what he and others post on his pages, because it could affect his job.

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The reality of social networking is that perceptions are everything - which applies to both online and offline behavior. The difference is that the implications of portraying a marginal persona online are far less severe in most cases but even that is changing as technology evolves.

I use facebook as a point of contact for friends it would be a struggle to keep in touch with normally. It will never be part of my business life and I will never accept a friend request from anyone I am working with in any way. This really isn't much of an issue though, since the people I work with are typically too old to have any online contact anyway (outside of email).

I think it is extremely foolish in today's world to give out any information about yourself unless you have to. There are simply too many risks involved and people are creepy enough online as it is.

Opinions on what successful is and what different jobs require is highly subjective anyway. There is no chance of everyone agreeing.

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Sorry, but your example really doesn't apply here, Frib. You have chosen to mingle that aspect of your personal life with your professional life. That's significantly different from someone stumbling upon or snooping out a part of your personal life and trying to affect your professional life with it.

the problem with the argument is this:

Regardless of whether you agree or not, people ARE looking at what you do online, if they can tie it to you, and it is an accepted practice in the business world in in Human Resources departments. Your opinion is irrelevant other than as philosophical fodder.

The larger concern you should have is if someone mistakenly makes a correlation between you, the candidate or employee, and X user online. Because there are many people in the world who may have your name or handle, and the problem arises in the various levels of skill in HR and hiring manager areas. If they mistakenly tie you to a user making neo-Nazi posts on a board because they suck at Internet research, it can be very bad for you. Many states are right to work states, and can fire you for damn near any reason. There's no legal process or precedent set around this sort of thing yet to my knowledge, so what are the guidelines to ensure that any knowledge gained about an employee or candidate is actually accurate?

Well, that's why it's disgusting to hear things like the company mentioned earlier that was actively firing people based on MySpace pages. WTF is wrong with people, anyway, that they think that's neccessary?

Class Action lawsuit incoming! (Ok, not really.)

It's a lot cheaper to fire someone for cause than to pay them severance.

I don't agree. Rugen's argument was that I should not have to monitor what I put on my Facebook at all-- that I should be able to post my "real" personality there, and not face any reprecussions even if my bosses / other stakeholders in my job see it. If I don't have to monitor it because no one should care, then I should be able to allow anyone to see it without fear. Me giving them access shouldn't matter.

It's also worth pointing out that when people lose their jobs because of Facebook or MySpace, it's almost always because they made their profile public. Rugen, however, mentioned getting irritated when such news stories pop up from time to time. But if we follow your logic, all these people got what they deserved by making their sites public. I think that's precisely what Rugen is objecting to-- he thinks that is unfair, and that a job should employ you without regard to whatever you may have put on your Facebook, public or not.

I still disagree. In some industries, like mine, there would be very few people who could keep their jobs, because we are *expected* to be role models for kids. It certainly goes further than the current conversation, too. I remember in college having discussions in our education classes about being careful about drinking publicly, going to bars in the same town where you teach (especially in small towns) and more. More than one professor suggested living in a completely different town than you teach, simply to give you a little anonymity and allow you to live your life a little more privately. This is especially true for jobs like mine-- band directors, high profile coachs, etc. Currently, whenever I go into the local grocery store in my small town, I nearly always run into someone that knows me because of the public nature of my job. If I run into them with three bottles of vodka and the latest Hustler magazine in my cart, there's a pretty good chance that I will get into trouble. Welcome to real life, I guess.

I had a Japanese course my 2nd semester of my freshmen year that I withdrew from. The teacher wanted everyone to sign up for the classes facebook group and she would post class assignments there and little lesson things and whatnot. Not my style and not what I wanted out of a class so I decided to drop it and take it under someone else.

I remember looking at it and thinking just how much garbage was on the page. So many stupid memes that were infecting what was supposed to be a scholastic tool, or so it was said. There were giant singing kanji that would dance to some stupid music, that god damn mobsters game was in full swing and just all kinds of nonsense. It was just my opinion that this type of shit should never touch that kind of environment, even if it was supposed to be for scholastic purposes. That is my biggest gripe about them. They aren't really so much tools of social networking as a personal attention whoring device nowadays. Yes, it can be used for great things, but more often than not they aren't.

I have never had a myspace or facebook page. Most of my RL friends do. I just don't see the need for it. No, I don't think it is right to be fired based on having one, and someone maybe not agreeing with what you have there unless it is an extreme circumstance, but it does happen. This way I have just eliminated the possibility of it ever happening to me.

Why didn't she just set up a black board account? O_o

Because she was retarded.

And regarding the 'personal whoring' blah blah blah...the various games are a nice time killer at work. I play that shit while I'm on the phone all the time, or when I'm doing work and need a break.

And before anyone starts up with the bullshit of 'waaaah at work?!' time thievery crap, I'm not on the clock. As long as I'm doing my fucking job, I can play World of Warcraft while I work (and I sometimes do).

Yes there's tons of other bullshit on Facebook, but you can filter it out pretty easily. MySpace has been used primarily as a 'hook up' tool (which is why I rarely update mine, no need/no interest, and secondarily as a method for touching base and keeping somewhat in touch with old friends who don't use other tools. I personally prefer LJ for that, but some old friends don't and while we don't hang out etc. I do give a shit what's going on in their lives enough to log in occassionally.

But whatever. Anything can be a decent tool if enough people are using it for a specific purpose. Facebook has been good for protest staging and other event mobilization. I'm sure it is okay for limited networking.

But most people who talk about 'networking' are usually blowing smoke up their own assholes, puffed up with a false sense of self importance. Business networking that I've done has always been privately run, and well screened and tends to be a damn good resource for information, and for finding resources 'in' that community. Private networks with an administration that screens but maintains relative user anon. (with private messaging for user to user interaction) *rocks* for information. People can discuss doing business with various companies and employers without TOO much fear of reprisal. Though I've seen it cost more than one incautious person their job of course, it tends to be FAR more beneficial.

When I took on with a new employer in December, I knew exactly what the contract was, and the compensation package...AND had information which resulted in more money (doing something one way over another means about 12% more, wheeee).

YMMV, but whatever industry you're in, you should be google searching private communites for people in that industry and you'll find 9 worthless ones for that one shining gem.

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You're being extreme because you seem to have taken exception to the fact that I won't live my life the way you've apparently chosen to. It's not a matter of "welcome to real life", it is a matter of "welcome to the life you've settled for/agreed to."

Facebook is a closed system. It is essentially your "house" in my example. No one is saying that you should invite the parents and kids over to your place for a BBQ and then toss a porn in the DVD. That's not "omg my job!" fear, it is just basic human decency and respect of time and place.

You have chosen to work in a career where you know up front you are going to be judged (however incorrectly I believe it may be and would not tolerate in my own life) for your life outside of work. The fact you invited them in means that you limited yourself, not that they imposed it upon you. If you want the porn on, don't invite them over for the BBQ. :p

I personally think that if you are on your own time and buy vodka and a playboy, and a parent sees you, it shouldn't matter as long as you're not getting the kids drunk and showing them the magazine. You say it does. Ok. Sucks to be you, in my personal opinion, but you obviously think it is worth it. Don't you?

So again, we're back to the fact that you have gone into a career where you felt the limitations it imposed upon you is worth whatever it gives you in return. Kudos. So did I. We just had different measures for what we'd tolerate from our employer in our outside life.

I do have to say though, the undertone to everything you are saying here leaves me with the impression that you honestly believe the only way to be a good role model for kids is to present a false facade of Ned Flanders. I sure as hell don't agree with that, but...whatever.

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